Cabover Campers & Camper Trailers (pickups)

djonathang · March 2001

Anyone familiar with Lofty Shelters? These are the hard shell tents that are mounted on top of you pickup shell. As I continue to ponder the alternatives, I thought about the idea of configuring the truck bed as a galley and storage area, and utilize the top of the shell for a bedroom. Not perfect, but another idea.

Also...does anyone have any experience with the Australian company that manufactures Ultimate Off-Road Campers?

vince4 · March 2001

I've never heard of X-Mount mirrors but they look pretty good on the web. One thing I don't like, they use flat glass on both sides. There is another brand available that looks more like a car mirror but has a power telescoping feature with a bellows type of mount. I think Camping World sells them as well as other common outlets.

If you have a 99+ GM you can get factory "camper mirrors" which extend but are not power. They were actually a negative cost option on my truck. I would have been happy to pay hundreds for power though, at least on the hard to reach side.

If GM ever changes the camper mirrors to power please post the news here. I'd be interested in converting one of mine.

vince4 · March 2001

What is it that you are looking for other than a warm nights rest? If you had a camper would you leave it on? Do you carry cargo or go off road? What is the motivation to keep the shell, cost?

djonathang · March 2001

Excellent questions! I'm looking for a comfortable place to be when I'm in the great outdoors. I have to quintessential examples. The first was a cold night in early fall in the sierras, when I slept in the back of the truck and the dog bowl froze. I tried to cuddle with Jake my black lab to stay warm, but he wanted nothing to do with me. The second was last year when I was in the mountains with my tent all setup...and along came the thunder showers. I ended up packing my tent and finding a motel. How great it would have been to sit at the edge of this mountain lake and watch the storm come in. I too am a waterfowler, and would like to take it to refuges for overnights during the hunting season. If I had a camper, I'd take it off between trips. I do carry cargo...dog, canoe, hunting & fishing gear, sail for my canoe, etc. Probably no more than anyone else. Oh yeah, my wife comes sometimes too;) The money isn't really a problem, and I was pretty set to go for a Four Wheel Camper. Then I got excited about the Phoenix Campers. When I found this site and started reading about everyone's difficulties and dissatisfaction with the various campers, I became somewhat discouraged. For $10 grand, I'd like be happy with the quality of my camper. That's been my motivation for finding an alternative. Anyway, that's my long winded story. Hope it's helpful in providing guidance. Much obliged. David

mledtje · March 2001

I don't think everyone is dissatisfied with the Phoenix or 4Wheel campers.

Admittedly, they are not perfect, but they do what we want them to do. I still think the 4Wheel camper probably has better quality than the Phoenix. But, we still like our Phoenix. We have over 25,000 miles on it and it is holding up well. We did have some initial problems, but these are low volume, hand built products and you will not get the quality you expect from a new car without paying much more than I did.

My wife could put up the top on the 4Wheel camper without difficulty. She cannot put up the top on our Phoenix, it is too heavy for her to lift. Maybe that is because we got a custom sized product (custom width, height and different lift height) and the leverages for the lifting mechanisms have not been optimized.

Our camper is comfortable for cold weather camping down to the teens. Probably much lower if we use the heater.

I've camped in a tent in the mid teens, in torrential downpours, in snow, and found it acceptable with the right equipment and preparation. The pop up camper takes care of most of those concerns. I think you will still have most of the tent issues with a 'Lofty Shelter'.

You might also condidre a used trailer. I've seen 16' Casita's and other small campers for under $5K.

Mike L

asarles · March 2001

I bought a 2001 chevy silverado 3500 diesel dualy with the 5 speed automatic transmition.I am in the process of picking up a 11&1/2 foot Lance camper the biggest they make.I will be getting air bags and what ever else it takes to make it as safe as I can get it. The truck is smooth as can be as far as driving and having the power to haul.It's the weight of the camper in the truck I am concerned about. Is someone out there running around with my future setup? I would like to know about the handling and what to look out for. You know how the salesmen are.You can have a volkswagon and they will tell you it can haul a 30 footer. Anyway,what ever info I recieve would be greatly appreciated. Thank , Art

vince4 · March 2001

You need a camper. No doubt, no hesitation, start choosing a model. From the description of your needs a camper fits perfectly and you'll enjoy it more than you think. I love being out in the wilderness during stormy weather and having a warm and cozy refuge when needed. Rain, snow, freeze, whatever. No problem. I sit inside in a tee shirt and read a book, cook dinner, listen to music etc. During the El Nino winter here in CA we had some tremendous storms. I was standing on the beach in the middle of one and it was a sight to see. I've never seen the ocean like that. Very exciting and exelerating, for 15 minutes, then run back to the camper to get warm and dry! Of course I enjoy summer camping too, but I appreciate the camper more in the winter.

I also have a lab (chocolate) and she likes the camper as much as I do. It's a good way to travel with a dog because I can leave her in the camper without worry or guilt when I wish to go do something.

So it sounds like you are wanting a pop-up rather than a hardside camper. Are you past that decision point now and ready to start talking brand etc.?

vince4 · March 2001

Take a look at the various pictures on my web site

http://members.home.net/vofm/

There are many camper shots of my Lance and Mike's popup.

vince4 · March 2001

With such a beefy truck I'd say you wouldn't need any additions, except for the size of your camper. Our only participant with a similar rig is Brutus, you can see some pictures of his F350 dually w/Bigfoot on my site mentioned above. He added air bags and I think that's all. Our favorite additions are: air bags, rear stabilizer bar, Bilstien or Rancho 9000 shocks. If your truck doesn't have a rear bar, get one. Other than that the truck may be good as is. I have air bags on my 2500 but could get away without (2500lb camper). I use them to restore normal ride height to keep the headlights pointing down and I assume to improve handling. I say assume because I've never carried the camper without the air bags in place. I also use them to help level out in the campsite.

So to answer your question, after the bar I'd install air bags next. They aren't very expensive and do give you added flexibility.

volkej · March 2001

David - You may have been reading more into the problems that have been reported than were actually there. Mike L. is correct when he says these campers are not perfect, but what is?
I purchased a Four Wheel Camper shell model and then added the stuff I wanted. The only big option I purchased with the camper was a furnace and I'm not sure I would do that again. On several occasions, instead of using the furnace, I've used one of those little Coleman catalytic heaters that use the small propane bottles and have been very comfortable. The only problem is you don't have a thermostat to control the heat, but the furnace is like $700 and you can buy a lot of propane bottles for that kind of money.
I've installed cabinets, water tank & sink, couch, porta pottie, etc., to make the camper very comfortable, and for a lot less money than I would have been charged for the same things from the factory. I've also installed those things so they can be easily removed if I want to use the shell to haul stuff. Best of both worlds. You can also get an extra wide door for the shell model that makes it easier to load large items. I think the shell model is a good way to go.
I've had a few problems with the camper that were annoying, but easily corrected. I had to use seam sealer on the popup portion of the camper to weather seal it. Although it wasn't difficult to do it was particularly aggravating because I thought the factory should have done it. How can you sell a supposed all weather camper that has not been seam sealed?
Overall I'm satisfied with the camper, but with the advantage of hindsight wonder if I wouldn't have been happier with a small travel trailer. I don't like carrying the camper all the time, but I don't have any place convenient to store it, so I have to leave it on my truck. If I do take it off I have to store it in one of those storage yards and if I have to do that I might as well have gotten a trailer. That's something to think about.

Jim
"I have got no further than this: Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has the right to knock him down for it." - Johnson

kingfishgus · March 2001

None of the campers seems to be worth the money when you compare it to other items, like the truck that is carrying it. The construction on them is extremely light so it feels cheap. The interiors on most all travel trailers and pop-ups is about two grades below a cheap mobile home. It has to be that way to be light enough to tow. I have the same reccomendation for new camper buyers as I have for new boat buyers. Talk to as many people as you can that own and use them. Wade out of the AS and figure out what you really need in a camper (boat) and what conditions you are most likely to use it under. Buy a good used unit. Maybe one 4-7 years old that somebody took really good care of (kept in a garage or carport, etc.). If you buy a 5 year old unit at a fair price, and use it for a year, if you have to sell it you will loose very little compared to what you'll loose if you buy a new one. You can probably find a 5-6 year old camper with no more use than one 3 years old and a beck of alot cheaper. Typical scenario is someone gets a new camper(or boat) and uses the beck out of it for a year. The next year they are not as enthused, it seems like too much hassle, and use it less. By the third year, they either trade up to a bigger one (if they really like it), or just quit using except for a few times a year. Maybe wife gets tired of it and they only use it for a couple of trips a year, if that much. Maybe the kids get a little bigger and it's too cramped. There are many reasons it may not be used. It just sits under the carport depreciating, waiting for someone like you to come buy and take it off their hands for a song.

vince4 · March 2001

Jim, you should be posting pictures of your progress in building up your shell. It sounds like you are done. You could put them on PictureTrail or send them to me if you don't have a way to post them.

I agree very much with kingfishgus about buying used. The best things to buy used are: exercise equipment and RVs. As he said, many buyers loose interest quickly so you can find only slightly used goods. I suspect 4-Wheel is in high demand and short supply on the market. I know Lance is in high demand. Only problem with buying used is you have to be flexible. I had to compromise on mine and accept the middle level model because it was perfect otherwise. I've looked a few times for popups for sale in my area and have found very little. Either they don't sell as many or people don't want to let them go.

djonathang · March 2001

Thank you everyone for your input on this issue. I'll take it all into consideration and make a decision (that's for sure). I'll let you know what I decide. See ya on the road...off the road...whichever the case may be. Much obliged. David

erikheiker · March 2001

I'd love to pick up a 16 footer, but my biggest gripe is the small size of the bathroom. I'm 6' 2" tall, with broad shoulders, and trailers are not built for people like me! Bathrooms needs to be 50 percent larger and they need to have the bubble skylight over the shower. I may just have to build my own!

volkej · March 2001

Used. As in campers and travel trailers is not a bad way to go. I've seen some interesting TV programs recently that have covered the growing fad of restoring old trailers. When the restorations are completed the decrepit trailers are better than new and are way cool.
I've been looking at trailer ads in the papers after seeing those shows; you can buy old trailers for $500 to $800. I'm fascinated with the idea of restoring one of those things. One of my concerns is that I may pay $500 for a trailer, then spend a couple of thousand repairing and updating it, and end up with a $2500 trailer that's still worth $500.
Kinda like my stock market investments. I'd be better off doing financial planning like my brother-in-law; he buys lottery tickets.

Jim
"Space isn't remote at all. It's only an hours drive away if your car could go straight up."

vince4 · March 2001

The very old trailers, like the old Airstream style, used all real wood inside. Walls, cabinets, everything. The beauty and workmanship are truly a joy to view. They weren't so good at space utilization, ventilation, weight, and such though. I understand old Airstreams are collectors items with a strong market. Other brands probably don't have such a strong following.

tundradude · March 2001

Went camping last year when they an Airstream convention. During the day, you had to wear sunglasses so you would not get blinded.

vince4 · March 2001

I finally finished my water pump silencer project! Even though the pump isn't silent, it made a huge improvement. If you find your water pump annoying, you may benefit from doing even a few of the things I tried.

My pump had no attempt at noise reduction from the factory. It was mounted directly to the wall under the sink. It vibrated the entire sink cabinet which made an excellent sounding board. Isolating the vibration was most important, then I also insulated against direct noise from the pump motor.

I made a new mounting board and attached it to wood framing with carpet between the two. The pump is mounted to the board via rubber isolators (from Mike's garage). The board and all areas around it are covered in carpet and/or foam. I lined the whole underside of the counter above the pump with acoustic foam. I glued more acoustic foam to a cardboard sheet and formed it around the pump body to block direct noise. I left some air gap between foam on the bottom and top for cooling. I ran the pump continuously for over 10 minutes playing with plumbing and it never even got warm.

It turns out the water plumbing itself was a big source of vibration conduction. The semi-rigid plastic tubing Lance uses is plenty stiff enough to to be a conduit. Just preventing a water hose from touching a drain pipe made a noticeable difference. The cold water line between the pump and the faucet was very short. I bought a 20" flexible water line from Home Depot and installed it between the plastic cold hose and the faucet. This really helped to prevent the faucet connection from being a conduit to the entire metal sink.

After all that I'd say the noise level is down by at least 50%. Much more livable now, for me and for the people in the campsite next door. I doubt I'll ever do it but another step I think would help is to install a very flexible line right at the output of the pump. Even though I've isolated the cold plumbing pretty well, it still is a conduit for vibration to it's destination in the cabinet.

Here is a photo of the finished product. Not much to look at really.

n75v111 · March 2001

Have 'ado 8100/4x4 HD SB & getting ready to mount my Reese 15000.

Starting to determine how much rear window clearance vrs Axel to window space to decide just how far aft of the Axel to position the PIN pivot location.

Talked to Hitchhiker dealer today and he said that Reese has and Slider Adoptor Devise that allows you to mount the 'A' Frame and Hitch tilting platform support assembly directly to which inturn allows approx. 9" slide back when parking. Reese dealer catalog show a price of about $330 but can't tell how it works in combo with current 'A' Frame hitch unit.

Can't seem to get into the Reeseproducts web page but don't think they do a very good jop of showing detail anyway.

Anyone know the 'nitty gritty' details on this??

Thanks

75v

vince4 · March 2001

I read an article in Trailer Life about a 5th wheel hitch that automatically slid back to clear the cab in short bed trucks when turning sharply . I don't know if they have a web site with good searching ability but you may want to give it a try.

djonathang · March 2001

In order to accommodate my future slide-in camper, I will need to provide additional support. Is there a preferred solution between Leaf Springs, Air Lifts or Shocks. When I inquired at the auto store, without delay, the fellow said shocks.

markbuck · March 2001

What kinda truck? Are you planning on overloading the rear axle?

Air shocks would be my last choice regardless, unless I owned an auto parts store that stocked em.

n75v111 · March 2001

I tried the Air Shocks in my previous F150 with fold down palomino camper. They just add to the bounce only at a higher bed position.

Finally went to add on Leaf Springs by Rancho. That' the best solution and they are easy to install. Just make sure you really tighten the 'U' bolts a long way so the spring ends don't punch a hole in the bed floor when you bottom out at times.

75v

obyone · March 2001

http://www.activesuspension.com/

vince4 · March 2001

This is a conversation us old timers have had many times on this board. But how many things can we discuss about campers, so here we go again.

Air shocks are not meant to lift the kind of weight we are talking about. Nor do they have a good reputation for performance or reliability.

I had Hellwig overload leaf springs on my last truck ('89 F250). They did the job but when I got my Silverado, I didn't give a seconds thought to springs and immediately put air bags on. Here's why. The springs didn't keep the truck at the same level with and without the camper, therefore my headlights illuminated the trees and other driver's eyes when the camper was on. The springs made the empty ride more stiff (even the progressive ones do to some extent). With the air bags I can adjust to the exact load, including side to side, from inside the cab by pressing a button. I use the bags to help level in campsites. With no load I have a stock ride.

At around $200-250 the bags are a little more expensive but not much. A compressor kit will run another $160 or so if you want one but it's not required.

If you spend the time and money to do it right the first time you will always be happy with your decision. I've found that to be true anyway.

kingfishgus · March 2001

The only thing air shocks are good for is leveling a car or small truck which is sagging because of a 200 or 300lb tongue weight of a trailer. The shocks would put excessive weight on the shock mounts which are not designed to take any constant load; well maybe 30lbs from gas charged shocks but not much more. They are designed to take some up and down load, obviously, depending on the vehicle, but I believe they are not real strong, comparatively speaking. The air bags I've seen have a more direct path from the axle to the frame and have significant strength in the attachment brackets. I have heard of several broken shock mounts being fixed in the local welding shop, but most of them have been on very hi performance street cars running air shocks, back in the good old days (60s and 70's). The two I remember working on were on a 1970 Chevelle SS454 (450-460 HP before engine modifications), and a 1966-67 Dodge Charger 426 Hemi. They probably had quite a bit of pressure on them ;-).

volkej · March 2001

Vince4 - You suggested I show some pictures on the progress of the interior build-up of my camper. I hope the picture I have attached comes through OK. This is the first time I have attempted this.
It's amazing what you can get into those little popup campers.
What do you think?
Jim

markbuck · March 2001

ritakay · March 2001

I am considering purchase of a slightly used 2001 Palomino Bronco 1200 truck camper for use in my 3/4 ton short bed Silverado.Has anyone had any serious quality problems with this unit?

mledtje · March 2001

I'm reposting this because the first one got axed for cursing. If you saw the first on and were offended, I guess I should aplogize. If you didn't see it and are curious, just take the word Dang and delete the the 'g' and add an 'm' before the 'n'. Please don't do this if the results might offend you!!

Mike L

Jim,

Dang, after seeing what you did with that 4 Wheel Shell model I'm tempted to go buy one too!!

So, I would guess that sway bar you got from me is what made it possible to carry all that extra weight?

Mike L

buzzb · March 2001

From vince4's pictures of his second battery rig in his GMC it looks like my optional second battery in my GMC includes the relay (mounted on the firewall) to isolate the main battery from the camper. Can you verify that this relay came with the optional second battery vince4?. Thanks.

vince4 · March 2001

Jim, you are a miracle worker! How you got your camera to take such a wide angle picture I'll never know!

I don't see any TV though. You forgot the TV. I can't go off road without a TV.

I need my seating area reupolstered. Do you do large campers too?

vince4 · March 2001

I haven't heard of any problems with that brand but I'm not sure if any participant has one of those. Someone had a chronic problem with the holding tank in a SunLite (I think). It turned out to be a leak due to a weak design.

You should check www.happycampers.net and do a key word search for that brand.

vince4 · March 2001

Yes, the relay comes with the factory option. I bought the factory parts and installed it myself. I still have scans of the parts dept computer output showing the components. Send me an e-mail if you want them.

I don't know how they wire the factory version though. It may change depending if you ordered the camper wiring and/or tow package. I seem to remember that they wired it so the primary battery is not isolated when the ignition is off, which would be quite stupid. The wiring diagrams were not clear and I may be wrong. Anyway I'd verify that it is as you expect.

vince4 · March 2001

As I mentioned, I need to have my dining area cushions redone. But I want to make them more comfortable for sitting, even if they make a worse bed. While building the Ultimate Camper Manufacturer Websites List, I ran across the picture below (link only since it's copyrighted and I don't want to be scolded again) which shows cushions made more couch-like. Does anyone have something other than plain flat cushions?

http://camping-trailers.com/images/wkndr_int2b.jpg

volkej · March 2001

I have a question concerning propane connections inside a camper.
I currently have a shutoff valve on my tank before it goes inside the camper and another shutoff valve inside the camper. The shutoff inside the camper has only one line going to the furnace. I want to add another appliance inside the camper (cooktop).
The question is: Do I need another shutoff valve inside the camper or should I just put a tee after the existing shutoff valve and add another line that will run to the cooktop?
I'm thinking another shutoff valve since I don't necessarily want gas going to both appliances at the same time.
What do ya'll have?

Jim
"Serendipity is when you're looking for a needle in the haystack and you find the farmers daughter."

stabbur · March 2001

Its not the tufts and fabric that makes for a comfortable seat, it is what is inside the cushion and the angle of the seating supports. There is not much that you can do about angles if it is intended to convert the seating to a bed. In the case of our Sunlite (the one with what I hope is a repaired blackwater tank) the cushion filling is urethane foam. It is soft enough so that it is easy to "bottom" on the plywood seat support. To make a really comfortable arrangement I would need to do what good furniture manufacturers do, that is fill the seat cushion with a material that was more dense than the back cushion. Doing this makes it quite uncomfortable to sleep on, however, since part of the bed is hard and the other part soft. When I redo our cushions I will put in foam of two different densities in both the seat and back cushions. The dense foam will be against the wood surface. That way the bottoming will be eliminated but the back cushion will not be so firm that it is bothersome. One of our son's friends owns a company that makes lodgepole pine furniture. He produces very comfortable cushions filled with polyester fiber that also comes in two different densities for this purpose. Harder to deal with than foam but first rate in comfort.

I like the photo of the custom interior. I guess the washer/dryer is behind the camera?

mledtje · March 2001

My feeling is that all your appliances have shut off valves built in.

My refrig does, my water heater does, my furnace does, and my stove does. But I only have one main shutoff at the tank. The shutoffs in the refrig, furnace and water heater are automatic, no pilot, no gas. The stove have manual shutoffs for each burner.

I can't remove any appliance without shutting off the tank. And that is fine for me. If I needed to remove an appliance for maintenance I suppose I could make a plug for the open line - or not use the camper until the appliance is returned.

So, the main shutoff at the tank seems adequate for me. I don't see any benefit in having a separate valve for each appliance.

Mike L

volkej · March 2001

ritakay - I don't know anyone who has a Palomino, but I've looked at them. They seem OK. I would look real close at the fabric portion of the pop-up; it seemed somewhat flimsy and doesn't look like it would insulate very well. I don't know if they sell an insulation layer that attaches to the top.
I don't know where you're located, but you might check with Four Wheel Camper. They sometimes have used campers that they resell for customers. You can get a good deal on those.

stabbur - No washer/dryer. I had to make a choice between that or a hot tub.

Jim

mledtje · March 2001

When did they appear? How long have I been asleep?

In case you haven't seen them, I'm talking about the little US flag that is after each poster's name at the start of each message.

Mike L

volkej · March 2001

Mike - You beat me to it. I just noticed those things and logged back in to ask the same question.

vince4 · March 2001

Boy, nothing slips by you guys.

vince4 · March 2001

I was thinking about using dual density foam sheets as well. I didn't think about making the back less dense than the bottom though. It wouldn't be so bad for bedding if the firm cushions could be used for the upper half of the body and the soft cushions for the feet.

Some furniture with the bulges and rolls does seem more comfortable because of the way it distributes force. I'm sure a good material inside is more important though.

I'd like to put a slight angle in the back cushion but then the bottom would have to be shorter so I don't know. I hope the upholstery shop can suggest a way to improve over the simple slab of foam in there now.

PF_Flyer · March 2001

The flags appeared this morning. Based on your choice of country in your profile. To change you flag to another country, just go to the top of this page and click on the My Profile link and choose another country!

PF Flyer
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erikheiker · March 2001

If we can have flags of all the countries, why can't we have state flags? I'd much prefer that.

nasviking · March 2001

Hello guys, my 1989 Sunline 11 1/2 foot camper has the old style jacks that mount underneath the sides(not on the corners). I want to replace them. From the research I've done, I can't use the new corner mounted jacks as my camper wouldn't be reinforced there.
Any idea's where I might get 4 jacks for my style truck camper? Thanks Steve

vince4 · March 2001

JC Whitney used to sell some jacks, I don't know if they still do. You have to check the catalog or call because they don't show them on-line.

Check this site for a freestanding jack you could use

http://www.rvpartsoutlet.com

Use the pull-down menu at the bottom of the screen.

Are you sure regular corner mount jacks won't work? That area is strong even without reinforcement, I think they would work. And I just happen to have a set you can have cheap! (True, but not why I think they would work.)

nasviking · March 2001

Vince could you send me a picture of the 4 jacks you have? Let me know what you want. I'm from Pennsylvania, so we'd have to ship them. Mine are the old square kind made by Grace, gears are out on one and I'd like to get some that operate smoothly. Thanks,Steve(NASVIKING@HOTMAIL.COM)

mledtje · March 2001

I like the way the 4Wheel Campers look with the hiddden tie downs. The HappiJac tie downs aren't too bad, but I would like to get rid of them - at least the back.

Has anyone ever done or seen a camper bolted to the bed at the back, or both front and back. Any drawbacks?

I can envision simply bolting through the camper floor and the pickup bed to lock the camper to the bed.

Another possibility could be a bracket bolted to the side of the camper and then bolted to the bed through the small access doors in the back.

A third possibility (one I prefer) is a flat bracket about 3" high and 5' wide. It would be bolted to the camper at the rear and then to the back of the PU bed. This might work on my camper since it is the same length as the bed.

It seems that the tie downs going to the bumper put some stress on the bumper brackets that the bumper wasn't designed for. But, mostly I don't like the way they look.

Any commments??

Mike L

tundradude · March 2001

Well I traded campers. I went from a 19 Terry to a 26 Sunnybrook. It amazing what the difference in years of technology is built into campers.

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