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I communicated this question to the son of the engineer who led the original development for the basic ZF design, and he is asking his dad about this. I'll post his answer later should I get it and compare it with the brainiacs who might answer this here. I'm certainly going to learn something here, and hope you all will too.
From the Mini Cooper CVT transmission article PDF file to download here..., page 21
"Pressure is supplied to the secondary pulley to ensure that there is always adequate clamping force onto the belt for all load conditions. A solenoid valve influences the secondary pressure control valve, optimising the pressure and hence the clamping force.
Optimisation of this pressure improves fuel consumption.
The working valves in this area are the secondary valve, the exhaust secondary valve, and a PWM solenoid secondary valve."
One of the reasons I eschew dealers for these types of services is they tend to pad the list of things needed to be done so you walk out of there paying for things the manufacturer doesn't even call for.
Would anyone who has had their 60,000 mile service be willing to share what was done and what the total cost was? I want to go into the dealer armed with as much accurate info as possible because I suspect they may try and slip a few extra services past me.
Thank you,
Chad
Just got a call from my Dealer on the stalling and cutting off issue. According to the data recorded information I collected, the diagnostic tests show that just a split second before the incident happens, it loses a connection/contact with the sensor in the accelator causing it to either stall or shut off all together. Unfortunately not covered by my warranty but in this case the cutting off and stalling is far more dangerous for me and my family than a few hundred bucks. In the 18th months I've had this Freestyle and had this issue, this is the first time I've had to fork out money. Thus far, the instrument cluster, and 3 coils have been replaced trying to resolve this issue all on Ford. Hope this resolves my issue.
And you can always tell the dealer to do the things on your list - if you say "do the 60k service", you'll wind up with a $1,000+ bill, summer air in the tires, shiny new lug nuts, waxed headrests and a headliner cleaning!
http://www.genuineservice.com/genuineservice/en/QCMSchedule
Change transmission fluid and high pressure case filter (CVT)
Inspect automatic transmission fluid level (if equipped with underhood dipstick)
Replace fuel filter
Replace engine air filter
Perform multi-point inspection
Inspect and lubricate all non-sealed steering linkage,ball joints,suspension joints,half and drive-shafts and u-joints
Inspect brake pads/shoes/rotors/drums, brake lines and hoses, and parking brake system
Inspect complete exhaust system and heat shields
Inspect engine cooling system and hoses
Change engine oil and replace oil filter (Up to 5 quarts of oil. Perform at specified mileage interval or every 6 months, whichever occurs first)
Rotate and inspect tires; check wheel end play and turning noise
- Chad
Shouldn't they fix it on warranty? You have had this problem for over a year (assuming your mileage was under 36,000 when you first reported it), and they have been fumbling the diagnosis since. I would ask the Ford zone office for consideration in paying for this. The new non-mechanical, all electric throttle pedal is to blame (if that is the case), and it is Ford's fault for not fixing it sooner when you first reported it.
If you're not convinced the Ford techs are good enough, similar ZF-brand CVTs are in Audi and Mini-Cooper (BMW) cars. Those dealerships should have the best mechanics around, and could likely service the Freestyle version of the ZF-designed CVT.
Thanks for the tip. I called the Dealer to remind them the problem started under warranty and would appreciate anything they could do to have that covered. They just called and it's ready for pick up at no charge. I just hope that this fixes the problem. Will keep you posted.
Does anyone believe that the leakage inside the caliper was caused by anything other than the "exposure to moisture" detailed by Ford letter of 2007?
I do not want to spend $400 on rear brakes at under 30,000 miles.
Glad you are enjoying yours and the mileage works out for you.
Good luck.
Maybe that's why I haven't noticed an issue (I have the captain's chairs in the back seat).
NOW only 1 year and 2 months later at 65 000 Km later (40 000 miles), only 23 000 Km later (14 000 miles), my back brake pads are again finished and had to be changed. That was bad enough (Ford did not help at this point) but the dealer also replaced my rotors!!! I'm no expert, but is it normal for rotors also to wear out in one year of driving at about 23 000 Km (14 000 miles)?
Please help...
Joel
Have you noticed a drop in MPG? I'd think those all-too-common problems with the rear brakes on some Freestyles cause some vociferous complaints of poor fuel economy that we hear of once in a while. I'm keeping an eye on mine, but I think they are good.
For all you Freestyle owners out there, you rear wheels (of 2wd freestyles anyway) should spin freely when you jack the rear up. This is a test.
I'd have to say NO, given that I have over 25k on my Freestyle (and another 25k on my Five Hundred) without having had rotors go bad.
2.5 hours of labor (yeah right!) @$70/hr total $175
$96 for the CVT fluid
$97 for the CVT filter
$65 for the fuel filter
I understand the dealer needs to make a profit on service, but this all seems way overpriced to me. Am I off base?
- Chad
So, yeah, that's a bit high.
The Edmunds Maintenance Guide
I got burned a bit last month on some service when I didn't get the price nailed down good first, including excessive parts mark-up. I haven't decided whether to dispute the charges on my VISA yet - the owner didn't bother to return my phone call when I left a message with the service writer. Maybe a trip to small claims court would be a fun, educational experience. :P
Meanwhile, Dealer Ratings and Reviews is going to get a nastygram about them from me in the near future.
The BBB is a good way to go if you think you were charged for things you did not actually get or ask for. Otherwise, they can charge you whatever they want, when they have no agreement or contract ahead of time that you authorize items.
saabturboid,
Like steve's experience, I'm afraid they can charge whatever they want to. Need to find out what prices are before going in there. Many dealerships will call you after they have a list of parts/labor to clear it with you. They are not trying to make friends. There is more than one Ford dealership around. I plan on shopping between 4 Ford dealerships to see what their prices are for the 60k mile service. Since our Freestyle has the unique CVT, with its own fluid, we have to buy that from Ford, and they know it. The parts departments at Ford dealerships will charge whatever the market will bear.
I got curious and looked up a Fram fuel filter for an '05 Freestyle, and a Fram G8018 goes for $11.34 plus tax. I recently got a set of Ford's Shop Manuals and Wiring Diagrams for the Freestyle, so I'm going to try to crawl under the car, under the front passenger seat, to change that filter. I'm thinking of pulling the high pressure CVT filter as well. However, I doubt if we can get CVT fluid anywhere but at a Ford dealership, unfortunately. Lets see if I can do all this without injuring myself...
Looking further at Checker Autoparts website (also Kragen Autoparts and Schucks, I think) I see a high-pressure CVT Motorcraft filter & O-ring kit for $64 at
CVT high-pressure filter/ring kit Motorcraft part.
You know, a trick that makes the dealerships upset, but is fun to do, is to just get the parts yourself on the open market (Motorcraft brand is acceptable to Ford dealerships) from www.partsamerica.com or your local discount autoparts store and tell the dealership to "Put these on my car, and what labor charge is that?" I've done that in the past, and in the rare case they won't do it (seldom), just go to another dealership until one bites.
Some states are better at consumer protection; over in Washington for example it's a specific violation of their consumer protection law to low ball a repair procedure (which is essentially what happened to me after I was given labor and parts estimates over the phone). Idaho pretty much leaves you up to your own devices when a business screws you over.
I went to someone I know that is a mechanic for Ford at a big dealership. I asked him whats the deal with CVT breakdowns and he said up front that they really dont get many problems at all on the CVT in fact he does not re- call any major problems as of yet in his shop. Thats in Northern Jersey. He did say they recommend changing the trans fluid every 30k of two years( Ford every 60k) Runs about 200.. He said the fluid thats changed is dirty black so it makes a difference and Ford is the only place to get the fluid. But he said they seem to be holding up fine as far as he can see. :confuse:
He said they had break problems that they where changing breaks and rotors and fixing the problem a while back. But Ford was picking up the bill for the work done.
Then I went to a high performance tranny place that is a specialist on high tech trannys, A top rate place that deals with foreign and domestic and race cars.
I talked to the owner about my concerns the CVT. His 1st reaction was that is a great tranny system and said as long as you change the fluid every 2 years you will be fine. He said he loved the entire CVT concept and it makes so much more sense for millage and less MOVABLE parts to breakdown. He went on to say only Ford is where he can get the trans fluid. His shop does the change for 175.00
So thats 2 direct exact answers. Then he went on to say he just got back from Fords unveiling of the 2009 F150s . He said Ford REPS said they will be implementing the CVT in other cars in the near future.
He did say failures can be caused by people not being trained and using other type fluids cause failures. He said some mechanics should not get into areas they have no idea of the tech that makes them work. Anything new will start people talking negative. He said everyone will be going to CVT in the neat future because the great marriage with gas milage that can't be over looked . Nissan going 100% in all their cars now.
I love the Freestyle and I do get a honest 28 to 29 mpg hwy and 24 on country roads for which I drive on. I will as I do keep up on maintence and run mobile 1 and change the fluid in the CVT with Ford CVT fluid every 2 years.
Question, did anyone have them replaced earlier and did it make a difference in e.g. gas mileage? Is it a DIY job? Looks like alot of stuff needs to be removed to get to the rear bank.
Thanks, Carsten
The Freestyle uses platinum plugs good for 100,000 miles, although in severe service you might replace them at 60,000 miles. Severe service is defined as idling a lot, or just taking short trips at low engine revs (cold engine too much). On my last Ford vehicle with a front drive transverse V6, you had to go under the car to reach the firewall side bank of plugs, using a special extension on the spark plug socket wrench that most mechanics are accustomed to using.
I plan to do mine every 30k. But once every two years seems a bit excessive?
Had them check a slight issue with minor engine revving when placed in drive from park...turns out it is designed to do that.
Freestyle is otherwise awesome and continues to hold my best car purchase ever award (I've owned a few...trust me).
There are deals out there. Very lightly used 2008s can be found at some pretty good price points on another web site.
Varnish & gum in v/body, t/converter, pan, filter, lines & cooler. Remove old fluid. Replace fluid & conditioner. Parts Kit #BGTFK2.
Installed 5F9Z 7B155 Y - filter for $80.15
Installed XT 7 QCFT: fluid 6@13.68 = $82.08
labor was $82.82
They did a multi-point inspection as well (I guess that's where they look to pad the bill) and found nothing else wrong.
cars.com BTW
You were not taken by the dealership as far as the filter they put on (more on that below). It is a normal part of the 60,000 mile service. Your experience compares to post #1192 in this forum above.
A bit of a mystery what all they charged you for, but most of it sounds good. Dealerships are notoriously odd about charges. Sometimes dealerships don't communicate well either.
The BGTFK2 kit you mentioned is the only mystery here, the rest is good. I know that Ford, in my Freestyle maintenance schedule and also in the official Ford (Helm) Workshop Manual, says don't pull the pan and don't change the pan filter in the CVT. Only the high-pressure filter is supposed to be changed, not the pan filter. And, there is no flushing procedure available for the Freestyle. In fact, they specifically warn against flushing it since the fluid is so unique (can't risk mixing). Also, when I run the BGTFK2 number in google, I can't find anything in anybody's catalog. Therefore, what in the world was accomplished there?
I'm thinking about making copies of the CVT 60,000 mile service procedure in the Ford Workshop manual for the Ford dealership before I go in, telling the Ford dealership to ONLY do that work and nothing else extra unless specifially authorized by me. Those guys can try to do unnecessary things.
The 5F9Z7B155Y for $80.15 is also known as the Ford Motorcraft CVT High Pressure Filter/O-Ring Kit FT178, so that is the familiar correct part, and the FT178 can be purchased at www.rockauto.com or www.partsamerica.com (Checker/Schucks/Kragen comprise partsamerica) for much cheaper. Dealership prices on parts are always high. Again, the separate pan filter should not be changed, only the FT178 high pressure filter should be changed.
I've never seen the "per quart" price on the special CVT fluid, so thanks for communicating that ($13.68 and you used 6). Dealerships are the only place we can get that.
http://www.ford-forums.com/ford-freestyle/8832-cvt-fluid-change-procedure-30k-mi- - les.html
http://www.ford-forums.com/ford-freestyle/5514-ford-mercon-cvt-trany-fluid-compa- - rable.html
http://www.myfordfreestyle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1255&highlight=cvt
Carsten
Probably is. Don't know. Special stuff only sold at Ford dealers. That stuff has to do it all: Lubes the big steel chain in there, and also the cone-pulley bearings, runs the hydraulic ratio shifting mechanism, and churns inside the low-speed torque convertor. Whew! I do not envy the engineers who designed the specs for that fluid.
cartenb: Thanks for the CVT links. glencof in those other forums did what many of us did and got the official Workshop Manual. Its available on ebay.com (search for Freestyle Workshop Manual and some will pop up). Its a 2 volume set, at least for the '05 and '06 model.
I do appreciate your help....