Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion

jrock65 · December 2005

Sonata sales:

1999: 30,022
2000: 45,983
2001: 62,385
2002: 68,085
2003: 82,330
2004: 107,189
2005: 123,000 (estimated for December)
2006: 160,000 (my prediction)

snakeweasel · December 2005

No but you gave figures that put them NEAR the bottom of the barrel. Note I said near.

littlez · December 2005

Some of those sales are fleet units, they are not all retail. Actually, looking at retail numbers, their increase is not as impressive. Still up, but no where near 100%.

Through September 2005, almost 20,000 Sonata sales were to rental companies and other fleets. (October RL Polk data is not out yet.) For example, in the month of September, Sonata sales were 10,006 units, 8,150 were retail. That means that 18.5% of Sonata sales in the month of September were fleet units. Their share of the segment through September went from 5.1% to 5.5%, up 457 units year to date. I don't have the breakdown for November yet, I'm guessing the increase is mostly fleet related.

littlez · December 2005

Yes I did, and that is what the data says, not me. I'm just a messenger.

littlez · December 2005

Show the retail numbers instead of total including fleet. I can sell a bunch of units to Hertz and Budget and look like I'm on fire, but I'm not.

Not saying that they're not up, but not up as much without the fleet units.

jrock65 · December 2005

If you want the fleet numbers, dig them up yourself. Don't tell me what to do.

Fact is, Sonata sales went from 30,000 in 1999 to 120,000+ in 2005. If you think that that is mainly due to fleet, then you're just in denial or extremely biased.

All cars in this segment (except the Accord) have significant fleet sales (between 10% and 20%).

littlez · December 2005

There is not really a "victim" because they haven't killed anyone. (Look at a couple of previous posts on retail versus total sales.)

But, looking at retail sales, and a modest increase, it looks like Civic (it's segment share is down YOY) may have lost a few to Sonata and Corolla is down a little, too. But, Camry and Accord, as well as Fusion (I know it's new) are all up.

Interestingly, the mid-size segment that the Fusion, Sonata, Accord and Camry reside in is down, while the small car segment, home of the Civic and Corolla is up this year.

stockmanjoe · December 2005

Yes the new 2006 Sonata cannot even be compared to the old one. It is a car that will ceratinly beat out the CamCords in every way quality, price, style, features, handling, warranty, roadside assistance etc.

littlez · December 2005

jrock65,

There is no denial or bias in the numbers. FACT is, 22% of Sonata's go to fleet (19% for the month of September and 22% year to date.) The modest retail increase says that a few more people have bought them this year versus last year. And that's good for Hyundai. But retail sales, not total shows how well a car or truck is doing in the marketplace. As I said earlier, any manufacturer can dump a bunch of vehicles into fleet, but that's not how they make money and not the measure of how well a vehicle is doing with the real buying public.

Now, Hyundai may benefit from some of these fleet units, meaning, people who have never driven one will rent it, like it and buy it. Unfortunately, that hasn't worked very well with Ford and GM. The abundance of units negatively impacted residual values.

jrock65 · December 2005

I posted a history of Sonata sales in the past 6 years. 30,000 in 1999 to 120,000+ in 2005.

You posted something about it being due to fleet sales. You have not produced any data that shows that the percentage of Sonata fleet sales has gone up over the years.

If you're going to make an argument like that, back it up with data that shows that the percentage of Sonata fleet sales has increased in the past 6 years.

I'd like to know where you got the 19% figure for September. Not that I don't believe it, I'd like to know where that info can be found.

pat · December 2005

Can we talk about the cars themselves instead of statistics, and data, and numbers, and each other ??? :confuse:

I've never met anyone in my life who decides to choose this car over that car because of sales figures or some kind of - however it is interpreted for whatever reason - statistical presentation ...

littlez · December 2005

I know you are the HOST, so I don't mean any disrespect, but when someone in this forum says something incorrect or taken out of context the people on this site have the right to know the truth. I think if there are facts misrepresented about these vehicles, they should corrected before we move on.

Having said that, I'm moving on after one more post.

littlez · December 2005

jrock,

RL Polk data shows registration data for the automobile industry.

kdhspyder · December 2005

BIG difference... Hyundais are mostly produced in Alabama now instead of being imported. With a 200K unit capacity (?) you can expect a typical month to be 12-15K units. If they continue to increase you'll likely see 18-20K months.

FWIW Hyundai is the biggest threat Toyota sees.

jrock65 · December 2005

I can't find the information on their website.

Do you have a link?

littlez · December 2005

jrock65,

I actually work in the automobile industry, so I get hard copies of their reports. I'll check to see if I can find a website somewhere.

pat · December 2005

CARS, please.

There is no "one more post." "One more post" always leads to someone else's "one more post" which leads to another "one more post" and so on.

Please, let's try to talk about what we like and what we wish was different about the cars themselves.

Thank you.

snakeweasel · December 2005

I thought just the V-6 Sonatas are being built in Alabama. Isn't everything else including 4 banger Sonatas still being built in Korea?

backy · December 2005

All the U.S. Sonatas have been assembled in the U.S. since October.

stockmanjoe · December 2005

The first months of the 2006 model years 4 cyl were made at the Asan Korea plant (I have one of them) but all Sonatas 4 and 6 are now being made in Alabama for the US market.

stockmanjoe · December 2005

Vast majority is retail sales. The fleet sales will also spur more retail sales as people see the Sonata as far superior to the CamCords.

kdhspyder · December 2005

backy confirmed:
All the U.S. Sonatas have been assembled in the U.S. since October.

I think that this is the reason for the HUGE jump in sales. I sincerely doubt that fleet sales went from 2000 units to 8000 units in one month.

Hopefully the additonal sales for Hyundai will come from people trading in their trucks and SUV's for midsized autos. If the new kid on the block starts eating into other models then..

CamCords are prolly secure for now;
Altima needs to stay alert or Hyundai might show them their taillights;
Ford has enough loyal buyers of older T&S to fill the Herosillo plant for F&M for a while;
Sebring watch out!!
Malibu, who knows?

backy · December 2005

What we wish were different, eh? OK, here goes:

Sonata: dual-knob height adjuster on manual seat instead of lever; chrome metal door pulls vs. painted plastic; tuning control on steering wheel; telescopic wheel on all models; nicer-looking 16" alloys; 5-speed autotranny and 6-speed manual shifter available on the 4-cylinder.

Accord: lower prices; more compliant ride w/o losing good handling; standard ESC in all models; active front head restraints; nicer fabric; longer warranty; different front-end styling; dual-knob height adjuster on manual seat instead of lever; 6-speed stick available on 4-cylinder models.

Fusion: different grille (blackout, perhaps); nicer dash trim on base model; standard ABS and side bags/curtains (and ESC at least available if not standard); more thigh support on back seat; dual-knob height adjuster on manual driver's seat; better quality plastics in interior; tighter seams on body panels; longer warranty; metal door pulls inside instead of plastic; 6-speed stick available on 4-cylinder models.

Camry: really needs an all-new model... oh, wait... never mind.

jpnewt · December 2005

Could it be because it will bring the thief more $$? Don't hear the Hyundai brand being stolen much do ya? Tells you what people other than you think about their cars.

backy · December 2005

I think that this is the reason for the HUGE jump in sales. I sincerely doubt that fleet sales went from 2000 units to 8000 units in one month.

So if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is, all Hyundai has to do is make more cars in the U.S., and they will sell more. That sounds easy!

jrock65 · December 2005

Altima sales:

2003: 201,240
2004: 235,889
2005: 252,000 (estimated for December)

Sonata sales don't seem to be coming at the expense of the Altima. And the 2007 Altima is a redesign, so the Alty should be okay.

stockmanjoe · December 2005

Yes the fact on the Sonata you can't change the radio station on the steering wheel is very annoying - even my Honda Pilot has that. I do really like the cruise control however. I am one of the few who seem to like the firm seats in the Sonata.

kdhspyder · December 2005

As with Toyota and Honda I would be shocked if they havent already identified the buyer for everyone of the new Sonatas to be built in 2006. OK that's an exageration. Major companies like HonYota and Hyundai dont put up massive new plants and invest 100's(?) of millions$ without doing the marketing to identify where and to whom they will sell these vehicles.

The Sonata is not a specialty vehicle that might disappear in a year or two. It's in the very heart of the US auto market with what appears to be a viable contender and a killer price.

I mentioned above, Toyota is very, very aware of it.

goodegg · December 2005

Far superior to CamCord? Have another drink stockmanjoe.

stockmanjoe · December 2005

Yes far superior in everyway. Have you driven a Hyundai - lately? I think I will take you up on that drink offer thank you very much!

alpha01 · December 2005

to get a few free drinks tonight

, but of course those won't be mixed with any type of driving.

The Camry debuts on Jan 9. I think its going to be pretty damn impressive, especially if its using the 269 horse 3.5L and 6sp Lexus transmission as rumours have stated. That would surprise me, but you never know. The 4 will be anywhere between 158 and 166 horses and will use an all new 5 speed auto. We'll see how that pans out in terms of acceleration and economy- the new car is said to be significantly more solid in structure and weight is said to have gone up as much as 175 lbs on some models- Im hoping thats not across the board.

It seems Bluetooth will be available on at least two of the four models (return of CE to displace 'Standard', mainstream LE, sportier SE, more luxurious XLE are expected). Side curtains (and side airbags) and 4 wheel disc ABS.... expected standard, not taking the Ford route.

5 speed manual continues in CE, SE 4. Trunk space up, handling/ride allegely improved all around (maybe less Aunt Jemima in the steering of the non-SEs? One can only hope..)

Again, all of this is educated specualtion based on everything I've read, but looks appealing. I have seen two different taillight designs, one I definitely prefer, so Im hoping for that one, and there has been one pic of a puke green color that I sincerely hope is not offered.

Good thing the Fusion is off to a good start.... :P

~alpha

jrock65 · December 2005

I'd be surprised if the 07 Camry didn't get the 268 hp GR engine. All the Japanese mags are saying so, and all the rest of Toyota products seem to be getting that engine as well.

I would be surprised about the 6 speed though, but only because the Avalon only has a 5 speed.

goodegg · December 2005

Have you driven a Hyundai - lately?

Yes, I have. Drove a Sonata LX. Liked it but wouldn't call it superior in every way. Actually gonna check out the Azera tomorrow. See if it has better seats etc.

Go visit the 07 Camry board, after that drink. Great looking package. Salud.

stockmanjoe · December 2005

Ah yes the old "Conform or be cast out." go with the crowd moo, moo, moo.

alpha01 · December 2005

The GR engine is not really any longer a question- one of the folks on the 07 Camry thread saw the SE, snapped about 17 digipix, and saw the 3.5L under the hood.

Dont know how or why, but why bother questioning- dude provided the first 07 left hand drive interior pics I've seen- of a Bluetooth, JBL 6 disc, cloth equipped Camry SE (V6). Jazzy but simple, big improvement over the current, IMO. Instrumentation looks like it will be damn pretty at night, as do the climate controls.

~alpha

hansienna · December 2005

And that folks, is the reason the Camry will continue to be the best selling sedan.

iwantonetoo · December 2005

Personally I find it quite upsetting what has happened to the US auto industry over the past 30 years. Everywhere you look and read Japanese cars are best, Korean cars are best, etc. And that's online, on the news, in the magazines, talking to your co-workers, friends.....

I still remember when made in the USA meant something was a superior product, when people were proud of that label. Now Detroit is really on it's knees. What happens to the US with no Ford or GM? A scary thought IMHO.

zen2 · December 2005

My Honda Accord was made in America, as is my
current Hyundai Sonata. As I mentioned before,
my dog of a Chevy Celebrity was made in Canada.
What I didn't mention before was that the salesman
had a huge "Buy American" sign above his desk.
I found this quite ironic, when I opened the door
of my new Celebrity, and saw the Maple Leaf.

stockmanjoe · December 2005

Yes GM and Ford are on there way out or at least headed for a substantially smaller role in the market - probably for the rest of our lives. They brought it on themselves with greedy unions and overpaid workers (including worthless CEOs). They made very poor cars for years, intentionally often times, to get us to buy a new one in three years (after lots of trips to their service department in between). We are now moving to a service economy the days of dropping out of high school to work at the plant for 100K (with over time) a year are over.

hansienna · December 2005

Made in America is still as good as anywhere else. My Ford F-150 and Chrysler T&C have been just as reliable and free from problems as my Toyota and Nissan vehicles...and have a much more comfortable ride.

BTW, Ontario Canada is also in America.

stockmanjoe · December 2005

I beg to differ American cars are poor quality. I remember my mother's 71 Buick Estate Wagon 455 4 barrell (8 mpg hwy!) at the 1500 mile mark the trannie died. I was about 16 and driving the vehicle in 1980 and it threw a rod in spectacular fashion at the 75,000 mile mark - RIP.
My old man's Oldsmobile 98 and Cutlass had more problems than there is paper to write them all down. My 1994 Ford T-Bird was a nice car but its trannied died at 35,000, had a power steering problem, windpw broke etc (it was made in Canada).

If Americans made good cars people would buy them. In the old days we had no choice but to buy their over priced junk.

scape2 · December 2005

It has been pounded and pounded into our heads that Ford/GM don't make reliable/quality products. Yet, I switched over in the early 90's and have never had any problems. Stigma, pure stigma that drapes over Ford/GM. Toyota is said to have this great reliability.. get out on the net.. you will find problems both about Honda/Toyota/Nissan. It is a sad day when Americans allow our heritage to slip away to foreign interests. This is not good for our children, for our economic future. Those who claim Honda/Toyota or even Hyundia build here.. you don't know the whole story. Ask where the tooling came from? the vendor support? the tech support? tax breaks? management? profits go? When you educate yourself you may be surprised.

pat · December 2005

We're talking specifically about the Sonata, the Accord, the Camry and Fusion here. These larger manufacturing and other issues belong in an appropriate discussion on our News & Views board.

Let's try to stick to the topic ... thanks.

littlez · December 2005

Several of the vehicles you mentioned were built over 20 and 30 years ago. Sure, back then it was not necessarily good. Things have changed since then. And if you look at many of the quality and dependability studies, the domestics are better than many of the imports.

littlez · December 2005

scape2,

Many on the forum have tried and many have failed.

stockmanjoe · December 2005

The consumer has spoken.

littlez · December 2005

I think many consumers just don't know.

iwantonetoo · December 2005

And how was the quality of Toyota, Honda and Datsun during that same time period?

stockmanjoe · December 2005

Pat is going to be pissed if we keep this up. I am already on his bad boy list. I'll make this one last point.

Japanese began to improve their quality and the American cars never did. If American cars began to improve and the Japanese cars didn't we would be looking at a totally different situation. I've gone out and purchased a Korean built car (Sonata) because they are more reliable and reasonably priced that is how the market works and should work. The US manufacturers may come back some day but they have alot to prove to us - since the way they treated their customers in the past.

oldjoe · December 2005

Sigh, I guess if you design a POS in the handling department, as the unnamed midsized car is, then I guess you will have the engineers trying desperately to "fix the hamburger car", not by engineering but by vapor-hype.

Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion

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