Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion

backy · October 2005

It's hard to compare the Sonata to a paper car. When the new Camry comes out, I expect it will be improved and tough competition for Sonata and others in this class.

midnightcowboy · October 2005

Backy said:

"Maybe you didn't notice that Edmunds.com did the unfathomable--compared the Sonata to the like-priced Accord and Camry (the unmitigated gall of those people!). And the Sonata took first place"

Yes and a lot of people don't feel the comparison was a completely fair one except that the costs were equal. If you add a few thousand to a Honda you get a whole lot more features.

It is almost like runing a car test of a Kia Optima against eqvalently priced Sonatas, Accords and Camrys. The Kia Optima wins becuase it is lower priced than the other's entry car offering. But just because it is priced lower, doesn't mean it is better.

Of course everyone has a right to make their car comparison however they like on such things as features, fit and finish, reliability, refinement and yes cost.

OH WOW add a Ford product to the comparison. Want to make a VW look relaible, compare it to a Ford Fission ( that is the nuclear model of the Fusion).

YMMV,

MidCow

smith20 · October 2005

If you add a few thousand to a Honda you get a whole lot more features.

Thanks for stating the obvious.

The point of Edmund's comparison was that the Sonata was better than Camry and Accord at that price . . . which I think is also stating the obvious.

If someone only has a budget that allows them to consider the I4 Accord or Camry, maybe they should consider the V6 Sonata for a similar price if they're looking for more power while sticking to the same budget. That's the kind of person that will take the Edmund's review to heart . . . or they could consider an I4 Sonata with similar power and go back to saving thousands of dollars.

backy · October 2005

I'm not surprised that a lot of Honda and Toyota fans felt that the Edmunds.com comparo of the Accord/Camry/Sonata was not fair--after all, the "wrong" car won!

What's not fair IMO is the comparos where a car that costs $14k goes up against cars that cost nearly $20k. The more expensive car wins. Well, DUH. The approach of comparing cars from the same class at the same price point is an interesting one and IMO as fair as any other method.

stickguy · October 2005

well, it does make sense to compare cars by class too, not just price. If I need a certain type of car (say mid size 4 door, stick, 4 cyl with ABS and SAB and a moonroof), I would like to know how a 14K model X stacks up to a 20K model Y and a 22K model Z.

It would be kinda pointless to me to have them use a V6 AT AWD 20K model X instead, since that isn't what I am looking for.

IMO, people shop price as a top end (max they can spend), not a number they have to hit. Many people, if they think the 14K X will do the job, won't insist on spending 20K just because they theoretically could.

stickguy · October 2005

also, while the Sonata did win (largely due to some extra features and the V6 performance), the Accord blew it away in MPG (27 vs. 20, a significant difference).

backy · October 2005

That surprises you? The Accord was an I4, the Sonata a 235 hp V6.

stickguy · October 2005

I was just pointing it out, since it is the flip side to the V6 for the price of a 4 debate.

backy · October 2005

That's an interesting choice: go for the power of the V6, for the price of an I4 in the Accord or Camry, or save a few thousand bucks and go for the I4 in the Sonata (or the Fusion for that matter). Personally I don't see any need for V6s in these cars. The I4s are plenty powerful for a mid-sized family car. It's not like people are drag-racing these things... are they?

goodegg · October 2005

The real proof that AccordCamry is the winner over all else is in years 4-5-6 etc. when the car's got 100K + miles on it and you still say it's a solid car and a good value. I guess we'll see what the HyundaiKia deal is then. I'll bet on the HondaToyota.

backy · October 2005

Yes, let's mark our calendars to check back here 5-6 years from now and see what the story is. But since I already have 5 years on one of my Hyundais and it's held up great, I don't need to wait that long before seriously considering a Sonata.

motownusa · October 2005

well at least Hyundai does come with a 100K powertrain warranty so if something mechanical does go wrong you are covered. I think Hyundai still gives people the impression that it primarily competes on price and not on quality. But I have to admit that the new Sonata has gotten pretty good reviews. As far as long term reliability, that still remains to be seen.

alpha01 · October 2005

Periodically ignorance permeates here. The Sonata is a very well executed vehicle... I've driven several, and have been impressed each time (except, well.. with the terrycloth upholstery and few minor issues that are preference... dont care for the metallic look instrumentation). I am typically a strong Honda/Toyota proponent, and would buy this Sonata over the current Camry. Of course, that may change in March when the new model bows, but thats my story. AND, I typically cant stand edmunds.com illconceived, poorly written comparisons, but this one was very focused at a clear price point and illustrates a very common decision that buyers are faced with- features vs. proven reliability. Personally, I think Hyundai has come far enough that with strong products like the new Sonata, its a much easier decision.

FWIW, my .02

~alpha

chrono · October 2005

Very good statement .. I know Honda and Toyota have very good products. We own a Honda Pilot actually. But when your looking for safety features like 4 wheel disc brakes, curtain airbags and stability control on a sedan .. you shouldn't have to pay for the highend model everytime. I think Hyundai has come a long way and actually I've chosen the Sonata to become my next car because of it's standard features combined with it's valued price point. This is what's important to me and most other consumers.

haefr · October 2005

Just keep in mind that in your quest for "paper" value, mechanical reliability is also an important factor. The jury's still out on Hyundai automatic transmissions' troubled past history - and I mention that knowing Honda's had some A/T issues, too. I've owned both makes (currently an '03 Sonata V6 with A/T) and had/have troubles with neither. Others haven't been as fortunate.

backy · October 2005

Hyundai?? How about the 1 million current-gen Accords that were recalled for a transmission problem? How many Sonatas have been recalled for a transmission problem?

haefr · October 2005

Gosh, backy, I could've sworn I mentioned Hyundai and Honda in the same breath regarding A/T problems. Accords were not "recalled". Accord owners were advised by letter that their cars' transmissions would be covered with a blanket warranty extension through 100,000 miles. Failed transmissions were replaced without question. This Honda campaign involved the prior generation 4-sp automatic transmission. Your comment is the first I've come across implicating problems with the current generation Honda 5-sp A/Ts. Kudos to Hyundai for already having in place their 10 yr./100,000 mile powertrain warranty. (Since that's the case, why would Hyundais be subject to a recall when a vehicle clocked under 10 yrs./100,000 miles would be summarily towed to a Hyundai dealership in the event of transmission probs unless its owner was totally oblivious?)

perna · October 2005

There is no such thing as "saving thousands" on the Hyundai. You will LOSE thousands when you go to trade it in due to horrific depreciation.

If you're the type who passes a car down to a relative instead of selling it, maybe it's a viable option.

I'm a Maxima driver, but the Fusion caught my eye. If they added some more guts and factory Sirius, it would be a serious contender for my next car.

backy · October 2005

And how is the resale on Ford cars lately?

backy · October 2005

I stand corrected. It was not a "recall". And the 2003 models affected were Acuras, not Accords. I think I was confusing the warranty action on the 1+ million Hondas and Acuras with a recall of 700,000 Hondas for a transmission park interlock issue, which was a safety issue--hence the recall. When you think about it, a tranny problem would not cause a recall unless there were a safety issue.

dino001 · October 2005

Not if you can resist a new car smell for longer than 5 years, preferably 8-10. When consider superior warranty, Sonata starts looking pretty attractive.

On the point of comparing same price vs same class: one can compare same class/content and make score adjusment based on prices, which can be also expressed as "Is extra $2/$4/$6K or whatever the difference, justified". Of course, one still needs to be reasonable but up to say $6000 spread may be somehow factored in the total score. For different class of vehicle it may be different. This segment is very price sensitive, so adjustment should be quite strong.

chrono · October 2005

I'll gladly trade off some resale value in return for safety features not present on comparable models in the same price range. These features are most important to me .. if resale value is for you, then Honda or Toyota is the one for you.

zodiac2004 · October 2005

But since I already have 5 years on one of my Hyundais and it's held up great

Go over to the RWTIV board and post the details about your 5 y/o Hyundai, and get a real world price evaluation from Terry.
Then you'll see how it stacks up against a HonYota.

bhmr59 · October 2005

Resale value is over stated. There're several factors to look at. If one model sells for $26K and another sells for $20K and if the higher priced car is worth $4K more after 3 years, the lower priced car clearly cost less. The longer one keeps a car, the less the difference in the cars retail value on the used car market.

Some weeks ago I did some research on Edmunds comparing true cost to own (TCO). I compared an '05 Sonata with an '05 Accord. After 5 years the depreciation when measured by what the five year old car would be worth compared to the price when new was about the same. Of course projecting a car's value as a used car five years into the future is not exact. Projections are based on past experience. Who knows what the public perception of certain models will be five years from now? The market does change. Look at what a 2 year old Ford Explorer was worth 3 years ago. Look at what a two year old Explorer is worth today. Look at where Hyundai was only 5 years ago and look at where it is today. As people notice the improvements their opinions will change and that will change the market.

smith20 · October 2005

Go over to the RWTIV board and post the details about your 5 y/o Hyundai, and get a real world price evaluation from Terry.
Then you'll see how it stacks up against a HonYota.

I didn't know he was looking to trade it in.

I think a short-cycle car consumer will probably regain much, or exceed, the initial price difference between Accord/Camry and Sonata by choosing the Accord/Camry under present conditions . . . but let's be honest that the cost is not their primary motivation. Buying a new car every few years is a very expensive habit when you look at the numbers and the primary influence on those people is definitely the desire to drive new cars.

For a consumer who replaces a car on a longer period (say 7-10 years) I think Sonata will probably compete much better on overall cost and my personal (unsubstantiated) hunch is that it will be more affordable than an Accord/Camry selection.

smith20 · October 2005

As people notice the improvements their opinions will change and that will change the market.

Right. I'm thinking Hyundai cars will see a gradual impovement in retained value in the coming years whereas Honda and Toyota cars are going to remain flat. They're already at the top . . . they have nowhere (positive) to go. Of course, as Hyundai's image and desirability improves, probably they'll gradually raise prices and the initial discount will shrink. That's why I like to buy now on the Hyundai up-trend.

black_tulip · October 2005

But when your looking for safety features like 4 wheel disc brakes, curtain airbags and stability control on a sedan .. you shouldn't have to pay for the highend model everytime.

True, but given Hyundai's past history, I am not sure that those safety features will actually work when I need them the most.

backy · October 2005

You're right, why would I want to trade in my 5-year-old Hyundai that still runs and looks (except for some dings) like new? In a year, my oldest son gets it for college, and he can use up the powertrain warranty. By the time we finally sell it, after 11-12 years, it will be worth almost nothing, and I'll have lost about $10,000 in depreciation on it. What would I have lost in the same time had I purchased my 2nd choice, a Civic EX, for around $17,000 instead? Do you think I could get more than $7000 for a 11-12 year old Civic?

goodegg · October 2005

The real test is now - there are bazillion Accords and Camrys with 100k+ miles on them that run great and will continue to do so. And how many Hyundais are there that can say the same. Your 1? Their track record is lame. But they promise their current models are great with the new warranty. Warranty shwarranty. There will be so many exclusions and caveats in the warranty that will render it to half of it's assertions. Track record over decades means more than Hyundai's "promise". They need to hire Joe Isuzu as their spokesman.

chrono · October 2005

Well I can tell you the past != the present. The 2006 Sonata received 5 star frontal and 5 star side impact ratings from the nhtsa. Only 5 other sedans total have received this rating.

baggs32 · October 2005

The 2006 Sonata received 5 star frontal and 5 star side impact ratings from the nhtsa. Only 5 other sedans total have received this rating.

Yeah and the Ford Five Hundred was one of them. However, the FH did it WITHOUT side air bags. I'd venture to guess that they Hyundai will win the IIHS test though.

Supposedly Ford strengthened the Fusion's side from what the Mazda6 had meaning it should do pretty well in the NHTSA side test without side bags too. The Mazda received 3 stars without side bags so look for the Fusion to get at least 4.

smith20 · October 2005

The real test is now - there are bazillion Accords and Camrys with 100k+ miles on them that run great and will continue to do so.

See, by your analysis, you would have missed out on buying a Honda/Toyota in their earlier years when they had an inferior reputation to other major manufacturers. Hyundai is hungry . . . no starving to get to the upper echelon of automakers. The Hyundai quality team grew eight-fold from 1998 to 2003 . . . I for one believe efforts like this are making a positive impact for the company and for me as a consumer.

zodiac2004 · October 2005

You're right, why would I want to trade in my 5-year-old Hyundai that still runs and looks (except for some dings) like new? In a year, my oldest son gets it for college, and he can use up the powertrain warranty. By the time we finally sell it, after 11-12 years, it will be worth almost nothing, and I'll have lost about $10,000 in depreciation on it. What would I have lost in the same time had I purchased my 2nd choice, a Civic EX, for around $17,000 instead? Do you think I could get more than $7000 for a 11-12 year old Civic?

I wasn't implying you should trade it in.. just ask an expert for a valuation.

Anyway, in the automotive industry, it takes a long time to earn a good reputation and much less time to lose one.
It's a very big mistake to think that Hyundais are now on par with HonYota's at this present moment. According to the experts, they aren't even close.

Hyundai/Kias have their own aisles in MBB/NW auctions despite selling a much smaller number of cars than the big 5 manufactures in the US. No other manufacturer does. This tells you they have more lemons per car sold than any other manufacturer by a large margin. And yes that includes the usual domestic suspects as well.

backy · October 2005

This tells you they have more lemons per car sold than any other manufacturer by a large margin.

No, this tells you that they have a lot of cars, based on sales, at auctions. Unless you are implying that all cars sold at auctions are lemons. And I know for a fact that is not true.

zodiac2004 · October 2005

No, this tells you that they have a lot of cars, based on sales, at auctions

I meant MBB/NW (Manufacturer Buy-Back / No Warranty aka lemon law) auctions, not just any auctions.

pat · October 2005

Can you share with us how you know this to be fact?

kdhspyder · October 2005

I've heard ( but only hearsay ) that Jim Press was asked off-handedly about the competition and he said Toyota's biggest concern was Hyundai. But as others have stated here longterm QDR is still the strong suit for ToyotaHonda.

Among other things the Scion/Yaris is a direct response to the Korean threat. The new RAV also gets into it with the Santa Fe. Camry/Accord/Sonata? Will the Korean vehicle be as worry free at 200K as a Camry / Accord. We'll see.

kdhspyder

backy · October 2005

It's not heresay:

"We're always looking in our rear-view mirror, and they're [Hyundai] one that's coming up quickly," said Dennis Cuneo, senior vice president of Toyota Motor North America Inc

http://www.detnews.com/2005/specialreport/0505/15/A01-182019.htm

bhmr59 · October 2005

Half say the Hyundai is inferior due to resale value after 2 or 3 years (BTW, not the whole picture). Half claim the Toy/Hon is more reliable after 200K +/- miles.

How many of these adamant Toy/Hon fans drive 200K in 2 to 3 years? At 20K per year (well above average) it would take 10 years to drive 200K. What % of new price for any car is left after 10 years and 200K?

zodiac2004 · October 2005

Can you share with us how you know this to be fact?

Terry's words, I believe

backy · October 2005

Let us know when Terry turns this juicy, important story over to a respected third party news organization for verification and publication.

explorerx4 · October 2005

Terry is 'THE MAN'.

pat · October 2005

Terry is certainly an excellent source of information, but as far as statistics on how many of what sort of vehicle go to what type of auction, his posts are anecdotal. Yes, he makes a business of this sort of thing, but his information is still anecdotal.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. :P

goodegg · October 2005

Wow - imagine that. The Hyundai's perception to the car pros is negative. And the majority of the general public's. Hyundai's day may come. But it's not earned from one good model year. Remember the Excel. And I'm not referring to Microsoft's product.

gmctruck · October 2005

I've been test driving cars for the last few months. When I mentioned to both the Honda and Toyota dealer that we are also considering the Sonata, both of them piped up and said "You shouldn't buy a Sonata". The truth is that no one has a crystal ball and can say for sure if the Sonata will change peoples perception of Hyundai or not... only time will answer that question. Sure the Excel may have been a crappy car, but so was the Chevy Vega and the Ford Pinto. It's unfair to keep Hyundai in the "crappy car" category based on a car they built twenty years ago. Based on reactions I'm getting from Honda and Toyota dealers, I think the Sonata has rattled their cages even though they try to down play the car at every turn. Will the Sonata offer some real competition to Honda/Toyota? That is the unanswered question... we are still undecided on which one will be parked in our driveway. I have good/bad/issues/concerns with all of them right now.

bhmr59 · October 2005

The Hyundai's perception to the car pros is negative.

Don't you mean one person's opinion, who happens to work in auto industry.

I've read some of his stuff before but couldn't find the right forum today. Anyway, Terry is not a god. Perhaps there is a "Jerry" in the car industry who totally disagrees with everything Terry feels, but "Jerry" doesn't post here. And, how many years ago did Hyundai stop bringing Excels to the USA?

I remember some really crappy Hondas & Toyotas in the 70's. Fortunately both Toy/Hon made great improvements (in about 5 or 6 years as I recall).

Many car manufacturers have had cars that bombed. Edsel & Corvair to name two that quickly come to mind. Oh, yeah, also Toyopet and '70s Civic which, other than name, bears as much resemblance to today's Civic as a dog to a horse.The present day Civic is larger (and better) than the original Accords.

bhmr59 · October 2005

If the Toy/Hon people weren't concerned about the competition from Sonata they wouldn't bad mouth it. They would suggest that you test drive the Sonata and compare it to their car!

backy · October 2005

This isn't 1985. There have been MANY good model years for Hyundai since 1999.

Here's a fact: Out of the 22 model years of reliability data reported for Hyundai by CR in its latest Annual Auto Issue, two were below average: the 2000 Sonata and 2004 XG350 (which dies in a few months). Nine were Above Average. Here's the automakers that have a better record over that time:

Acura
Honda
Infiniti
Lexus
Subaru
Toyota/Scion

Note that Hyundai's record is better than Mazda's, Nissan's, Mitsubishi's, all domestic brands, and all the German brands. Still a bit behind the most reliable Japanese brands. But gaining quickly.

jnt · October 2005

If I were Toyota or Honda leader, for the next 5 years, I would keep a close eye on Hyundai. The simple fact that they have come so far and so fast should make me (Honda leader) nervous. For the last 2-3 years, the Hyundai vehicles have consistently ranked on the top 3 of JD Powers Initial Quality studies. In fact, at time, they shared the first place with Toyota, better than Honda. Even last quarter, Kia (Hyundai's cousin), many years had been at the bottom, vaulted to to the Honor list with one new model based on Hyundai design.

Every single new vehicle (starting with Sonata) coming out of Hyndai factory is significantly better (size, power, features) than the one it replaces. Remember the old Sonata, anyone? Look at the difference now. Next year, they'll roll out the new Santa Fe, and guess what their target is ? LX330!. You probably laugh to death hearing that. So did I at first. They don't even want to use the Honda Pilot as the bogey for designing this vehicle. If you aim high and work hard at it, you may get there. That is their philosophy. Simple enough. They don't hold back latest technology. If they do not have it, they buy it and put in their cars: entertainment electronics to safety.

jt

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

to surpass their buddies Honda and Toyota in the future sometime. In the meantime they will continue building better cars with each passing year. The meetings have been attended, the plans have been drawn, the hierarchy is solid and set, and, you guessed it, the South Korean students are the smartest in the world. Not a joke-South Korean students score better on all core competency tests than any other nation on earth. Hyundai and Kia have some pretty smart new workers each graduating year to welcome to their team.

Out of the four cars competing with each other in this thread the one that offers the most value for the money (factoring the Long Haul Warranty's value in) is the Hyundai Sonata. Pretty tough competition but I have owned two Kia's so far and I'm completely impressed by both of them. It will take a really good car from Toyota, Honda, Scion, Chrysler or Ford to sway me from buying a Kia or Hyundai next time. The body lines of the Hyundai Sonata are far more attractive than any other car in this thread.

I must say that the new Ford Fusion looks pretty good. I'd like to see how good it holds up mechanically.

Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion

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