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Porsche - the world's best car company.

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  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    I think I will start new "biker " thread here in "News & Views." could lead to some interesting discussions.. So carry on this Harley vs. Porsche in "Real men ride______________. "

    Bob
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    image and brand power. This gives their 4 door sedan a running start.

    But - I don't see how a 4 door sedan or the Cayenne SUV are part of Porsche's niche.

    Maybe the poor resale value you see on used Cayennes reflects this, Terry.
  • kevm14kevm14 Posts: 423
    The bikes they build would drive most motorcyle engineers to drinking. It's all about style, and nothing about performance or comfort.

    I know. It looks like they put the same engine on every bike, too. "Well, we detailed the head on this one a little differently..."
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,364
    the new supercharged Range Rover Sport is nice, and handlles and accelerates better than the regular Rangie...

    but still cannot compete with the cayenne turbo in terms of performance. It is slower, cannot reach 165 mph....takes longer to stop, and cannnot outhandle the cayenne.

    But it sure is a nice piece of machine....Porsche should watch out...give better value, better fuell economy, better styling, better reliability....or else BMW and Merc and all others will catch up....
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,364
    cayenne by Porsche.....that just hurts a lot of people's mental image and heart...

    I agree....there are some issues with tire wear, electronics, and transmission smoothness....

    but what a ride.....

    I have had no electronic issues, no tranny problems...and love the engine. The vehicle satisfies the demands of a family of 4, while still indulging the driver in some spirited sportiness.....

    the performance of the cayenne is :

    acceleration: 0-60 in 5.2 sec for the turbo ( about the speed of a 1986 Lamborghini Countach S ) , 7.5 for the normally aspirated.( not bad for a SUV)

    stopping: 60-0 in only 112 ft to 120 ft....better than many so called sports cars.

    handling: 0.82 to 0.86 depending on tires....not bad and better than many cars..

    With all the electronics in the cayenne, one expects that there would be some teething pains...but the vehicle should last a lot longer than any of the other cars out there....Hope they cure the reliability issues that happened to the few cars that have them....most are doing fine....and making big smiles on their drivers faces.... :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,974
    Maybe I like the Cayenne because its engine is directly related to the engine of the Porsche 928, which is NOT as often rumoured by pagans and barbarians, as a derivation of the Mercedes 4.5 V-8. Not true not even a teeny weenie bit...but the Cayenne and 928 engines are definitely genetically linked, very much so.

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  • rroyce10rroyce10 Posts: 9,359
    ... **Harley's are bought purely for image**

    I've been riding since 75, so I've had Honda's, Harleys, Triumphs, Nortons, BSA's and Yamaha's (still drive the Yami and the Harley) .. but In the last 4/5 years I would hafta agree, they get bought for the "honor" ...

    But also in todays car world, I don't see any difference in BMW, Benz or even Porsche ... let's be honest, most folks buy these cars for image, for the ego or for those little words said: "I drive a Bimmer" or "that's my E class" and lets not forget: "Yeppers, that my 911" .... I see it every minute of everyday, they're my customers ..l.o.l... ..

    Most folks buy all kinds of things for the prestige, the ego rush .... do you think golfers spend $2,000 on a new set of Nikes, Callaways or Clevelands golf clubs because it will make their game better..? .. heeeeeck no.! .. it's because Tiger, Mickelson and Vijay use them and are the best in the world .. in the meantime, these are the same folks that will triple bogey every hole, they could use a shotgun and it wouldn't change their game -- but those clubs sure look good at the golf course .... do you think anything is different with cars, boats or bikes..? ...l.o.l.....

    Terry :P

    PS: I like the K1200, I put about 900 miles on one .. not particularly "my" comfort zone, but still a very very nice bike ....
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,974
    You know I would surrender my argument to you completly if we were talking solely about Benz and BMW as image machinery, but I have to dig in my heels with Porsche. I know so many Porsche owners who are great drivers and who race and who are so knoweldgable about the product that I really think the buyers who buy Porsche for image are a) in the minority and b) soon to give up the car.

    You're not going to see "Benz Track Day" or "Lexus Club Driving School Session" one weekend a month, but you'll see it with Porsches all the time.

    More than that, I'd bet you a really good lunch that Porsche owners own more second Porsches than BMW or Benz owners own second versions of their vehicles. (I don't mean hubby-wife, I mean one guy, two or three cars that are his own).

    Also, a Porsche really is a MAN'S car---you do see ladies driving them and driving them well, but the ratio to male drivers is, also, I bet much more skewed than with BMW or Benz.

    And what does all this mean?

    I think it means that Porsche buyers know what they want and they know what the product is. They are "product-savvy" and loyal repeat-buyers.

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  • rroyce10rroyce10 Posts: 9,359
    ...... I really think you're taking Porsche too seriously .....

    Do I think the large minority knows the car and knows what it's all about.? - yes (sooner or later) .. most buyers have to know the car and all of it's intrinsic value's because they are very expensive to drive - not price wise, but service and maintenance wise .. but when I say the large minority, I would be thinking a 45/55% split ..

    Is Porsche really a MAN'S car.? - I dunno about that, alot of woman have bought into the Cayenne .. that said, a lot of woman drive Yukons and their hubby's drive Vettes, so it's the same type scenario .... do some own more than one Porsche.? .. it's an "enthusiasts" car to the enth degree and if certain buyers don't get hammered in service work and understand the inconvenience, then they will come back and buy again .....

    Owning a Porsche is very similiar to owning a Fountain or a Formula offshore boat ... when the weather is nice, it's firing on all cylinders, the travel area is empty and the comradory is great - then they are a joy .... drop some rain, add a little wind, get some 3/4ft waves and it's back to the dock .. same with a Porsche. The big difference is, a "real owner" could care less ... notice I said "owner" -- the other half only rent Porsche's until they decide to trade them in ...l.o.l......



    Terry ;)
  • kevm14kevm14 Posts: 423
    acceleration: 0-60 in 5.2 sec for the turbo ( about the speed of a 1986 Lamborghini Countach S )

    I think it's funny that in an effort to make the Cayenne's performance seem exotic, you liken it to an 80s Italian supercar. You could have just said "about the speed of a 1998 Camaro Z28."
  • kevm14kevm14 Posts: 423
    But also in todays car world, I don't see any difference in BMW, Benz or even Porsche ... let's be honest, most folks buy these cars for image, for the ego

    Yes, but cars like, for example, the E90 3-series are some of the best feeling cars in the world right now. I'm talking about the driver's connection with the road and the overall performance of the vehicle in that price range/class. Can Harley say that? It can say "Most emotionally connected" but that's it.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    Well I tried to start a specfic thread on this topic, but it got shut down. :(

    Bob
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,676
    How about almost as fast as a new Subaru? Doesn't have the same ring does it? But considering it is little more than half of a new Hummer H2's time, it is a pretty fast SUV.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,974
    Well I don't know any Porsche owners like that. Who on earth are you talking to? Miami hairdressers? :P Like I said, if someone buys a Porsche as a poseur's car they will quickly tire of it and be disappointed. I see that all the time. It's a driver's car 100% and if one thinks they are buying a German SC430 or an SL500 they are in for a very rude shock.

    Porsche is very good about maintaining the integrity of their cars. They do what they say they do. There is no pretense about the product. You want to run at redline all day on the Autobahn, go ahead, no problem, no sweat.

    I wouldn't lump Porsche cars and Cayennes in the same category, and neither does Porsche itself I don't believe. The Cayenne represents an expanded market to people who might not normally drive a Porsche (as well as those who do). So sure, more women are likely to drive an automatic trans. SUV, and sure, you are more likely to get an image-conscious person into a Cayenne than a Porsche 997.

    As for comparing Porsches to Subarus and Camaros, that brings up the old "rich fool" argument, which goes: "why would someone spend $70K for a car that goes no faster or not much faster than one that costs $30K? Therefore, everyone who spends the $70K is a dope". A variation of "rich fool" is "these people are all poseurs and are just buying a name".

    Fact is, plenty of people do spend the $70K and Porsche is making money and Camaro is dead and Subaru is struggling.

    So there's something else going on, obviously, besides 0-60 times and image. Porsche is the "best" at business in this case and I don't think it is merely "image-based".

    Porsche offers something that people really want and that 'something' is tangible enough to get your hands on.

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  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,364
    I think so...they are built by the same company..and are the only V8 ever made by the company in recent years....

    I like the strong engine...and perfect performance , for an SUV... I know many people do not like SUVs....and feel that Porsche should not have gone there....and in hind sight, they may be right...

    I think SUV phenom will die down due to 2 main reasons:
    1- gas prices are going up....
    2- the main reason....most baby boomer children are reaching adulthood, thus negating the need for SUVs to shuttle them to camp, to ski, to games, or for family trips. older boomers also are also reaching retirement age, and thus need to downsize.

    I have not heard of any major engine problems yet...not even one.!!! There are electronic glitches....just like any computer hard ware or software ...and cayenne does have lots of electronics....so that , to me , is the main source of complaints. I have yet to hear any one complain of the lack of performance, or engine trouble.
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,364
    Hi Kevm:

    me: "acceleration: 0-60 in 5.2 sec for the turbo ( about the speed of a 1986 Lamborghini Countach S ) "

    you : "I think it's funny that in an effort to make the Cayenne's performance seem exotic, you liken it to an 80s Italian supercar. You could have just said "about the speed of a 1998 Camaro Z28."

    Me: a doubter, eh ? :)

    How many cars will accelerate from 0-60 in 5.0 or 5.4 sec ?
    not many, I bet. I used to drive a 2000 Boxster S....nice car....but the cayenne will be close to it in acceleration. As to comfort, cayenne will surpass it.

    Now I will say that I claim ignorance about the 1998 Z28.....It is a nice car...but not my cup of tea..... I don;t know how old you are...but back in my college days, we all loved the Countach...since it was the Supercar of the time. Nothing came close to it...Back then we would put up posters of the Countach and drool over it....and now a mere SUV can equal the performance of a supercar.....( of course, nowadays the Diablo and Ferrari's are doing it in 4.2 sec......... )

    so
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,364
    "How about almost as fast as a new Subaru? Doesn't have the same ring does it?

    LOL...your trying to insinuate the cayenne is a lesser vehicle , really says things about the Subaru. I have nothing against Subaru...they are nice...dependable, but remember.....Porsche made the first 4 wheel drive vehicle in the world..!!

    And ...if you get into a new Subaru....welll , I guess that means you are in a fast....er....well...you are still in a Subaru... ;)

    "But considering it is little more than half of a new Hummer H2's time, it is a pretty fast SUV.

    Yes...it is fast. But why compare it with a Hummer, which is not designed for speed, but military duty ? It is not fair to Hummer. I compared the cayenne to the Countach, because both were designed for speed.

    Now Cayenne is the fastest SUV on the planet....bar none. It was clocked going 165 mph in the Australian out back.....the BMW X5 did 154....the Mercedes ML55 did 150. The cayenne , with the side view mirrors folded in, 96 octane, and with the other 2 SUVs punching an aerodynamic hole in the wall of air....topped out at 175 mph. And it can really go offroad. I think only the engineering prowess of Porsche could pull off something like this. Are any owners going to go 165 or 130 mph....I don't think so, and I hope not...but next time you see one on the road.......you will know that your eyes may deceive you...that the hunk of SUV you see can probably out perform many sports cars , including the Mustang and the Nissan 350 Z...... ;) :D
  • highenderhighender Posts: 1,364
    "But also in todays car world, I don't see any difference in BMW, Benz or even Porsche ...

    Yikes.....you don't see any difference ? Now I would agree with you if you said that there was similarities between BMW and Mercedes...but even between Bimmers and mercs...there is a fundamentally basic difference. BMW has always emphasized performance with luxury a second thought. Mercedes is just the opposite....luxury first.....performance is not that important (AMG notwithstanding). PORSCHE is all about performance.....to hxx with luxury.... ;)

    let's be honest, most folks buy these cars for image, for the ego or for those little words said: "I drive a Bimmer" or "that's my E class"

    here I agree with you. Most image conscious people buy Mercedes and BMW or Lexus.

    and lets not forget: "Yeppers, that my 911" .... I see it every minute of everyday, they're my customers .

    You must have missed the glee in the eye and squirt of adrenaline in the face. :D

    Here I disagree.....although there is a group that buys a Porsche , but buys it only for the sporty image or image of owning a name brand. They are in the minority, I think. Most people buy it for the performance . Porsche cars are not that easy to get used to, if one is accustomed to soft rides, cup holders, just going to point B. They are rather stiff in ride, low down, bumpy and easy to get sick in if you are a queasy person.


    Most folks buy all kinds of things for the prestige, the ego rush .... do you think golfers spend $2,000 on a new set of Nikes, Callaways or Clevelands golf clubs because it will make their game better..? .. heeeeeck no.! .. it's because Tiger, Mickelson and Vijay use them and are the best in the world .. in the meantime, these are the same folks that will triple bogey every hole, they could use a shotgun and it wouldn't change their game -- but those clubs sure look good at the golf course ....

    You are both right, and wrong ! There are a lot of golfers who would do bad no matter what clubs they have. This months' issue of GOLF magazine talks about a recently deceased guy in Britain who spent over 100,000 lbs sterling on clubs....and left behind hundreds of sets and thousands of clubs.

    that said, the golf Pros all say it is in your swing, but that better equipment will improve your game....some clubs are more forgiving, correct slices and hooks, etc......

    Same applies to cars. Yes...if all you do is go from point A to point B...then a Yugo or Hyundai will suffice....but if you want to enjoy the drive , and really have fun...then Porsche will provide that.
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,676
    No, I wasn't demeaning Porsche. I was just being glib.

    If you get into these acceleration for $ arguments, you can't win. For example, if you ever pick up an issue of Grassroots Motorsports, you will see crazy things like Voyager minivans built for $1,500 that will do high 12's in the quarter. I would still take the Cayenne.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    And ...if you get into a new Subaru....welll , I guess that means you are in a fast....er....well...you are still in a Subaru...

    Frankly I find that comment to be snobbish, if not downright offensive. It just goes to show that for some people "image" is indeed a fact—and is very important as to who they "think" they are.

    Fact is you can get plenty of satisfaction out of driving a high-performance Subaru (and other brands too), and you don't have to spend a bundle to do so. I find that pretty attractive.

    Bob
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,974
    Oh c'mon it's not offensive. All it says is that you get what you pay for, what's wrong with that? You can fill in the blank on any $30K for that matter.

    You were expecting hand picked top grade leathers and heavy steel and outstanding lustrous paint and exotic alloy construction and a car that will look great in 30 years? No $30K car can deliver that.

    You can't get Porsche quality or build for $30K, any more than you can get a $300 suit that is stitched and tailored and has the quality of fabric of a $1,000 suit.

    This is just the "rich fool" argument again, sounds to me; why is the fool spending $70K when everybody knows a Subaru is just as good.

    I'm not buyin' that argument because I think it is based on an erroneous premise.

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  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    If you have the the extra $70K to spend, then fine; but please don't put those down for buying a lesser car, be it a Subaru or something else, who are not in the postion to buy a Porsche. For many a Subaru is just as good, maybe even better.

    I find that comment offensive—and it reeks of snobbery. Sorry Shifty, you're not going to convince me otherwise.

    Bob
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,124
    You would really take offense over what someone else thinks of your car?

    Sounds like reverse-snobbery... ;)

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  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,124
    ..that you car what someone else thinks about your Subaru..

    Why do you care what they think?

    I usually consider the people who are concerned about their car's image to be the snobs...

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    Tell that to Highender, not me.

    Bob
  • kevm14kevm14 Posts: 423
    How many cars will accelerate from 0-60 in 5.0 or 5.4 sec ?
    not many, I bet. I used to drive a 2000 Boxster S....nice car....but the cayenne will be close to it in acceleration. As to comfort, cayenne will surpass it.


    Lots of stuff has reached the mid to low 5 second 0-60 range. You can even get a Mustang GT that'll do the run in the low 5s for well under $30k. I'm not a Ford person, but that's a decent value. Frankly, I'd be suprised if a Cayenne Turbo could out-handle the Mustang, just because it has SO MUCH weight and tall center of gravity that not even $100k worth of engineering can change that fact. The Cayenne is impressive for an SUV, but as far as performance goes in CAR land, it's nowhere near the top. And for $100k, I could buy SEVERAL comfortable and fast cars.

    Now I will say that I claim ignorance about the 1998 Z28.....It is a nice car...but not my cup of tea

    I was just using it as an example. I could have also said 1992 Corvette. I have a 95 Camaro Z28 and I know what it can and can't do. What it can't do is even remotely pretend to be a luxury car.

    ..... I don;t know how old you are...

    24.

    but back in my college days, we all loved the Countach...since it was the Supercar of the time. Nothing came close to it...Back then we would put up posters of the Countach and drool over it

    I remember those days, but I was a lot younger than you.

    ....and now a mere SUV can equal the performance of a supercar.....( of course, nowadays the Diablo and Ferrari's are doing it in 4.2 sec......... )

    And again, just like with the Cayenne and 5.2 seconds 0-60, you don't need to spend over $100k to get 0-60 in 4.2 seconds. Check out a 2001-2004 Corvette Z06. It's also not a straight line special. No, it doesn't have that touchy-feely germanic-ness to it that the Porsche does, but for $50k, you get (or got) an AWFUL lot of car. Corvettes are even pretty reliable (at least C5s) and just as easy to work on as any run-of-the-mill GM car, for the most part. Consider modifications. You can buy a late model Corvette, and there is the MOON out there for ways to tweak the engine, suspension, the look, etc, and a GOOD CHUNK of those options are actually affordable. You don't have to spend $40k on a "Stage 2 Ruf Package," you know? The owner can actually fiddle with the car. Computer recalibration is as simple as some $500 software and a laptop. You can buy a cam for $200, put it in, recalibrate the computer yourself and be beating that Porsche Turbo (a 911 Turbo, the Cayenne was history from the showroom). THAT is a level of satisfaction that you could never achieve with a lot of supercars. Of course, it's not for everyone, and I realize this. That also points to the fact that these guys are going to need intelligence. How many Porsche owners are capable of changing out the cams, or recalibrating the PCM? I'm frankly more impressed by knowledge and experience than by a fat wallet.

    The thing that got me off exotics well before I even got my license is that I realized I would NEVER own one. Thus, I became uninterested. With the Corvette (and other "affordable" sports cars), ownership is a realistic proposition. Case in point, my 24 year old cousin. A couple years ago, he bought a used 2001 Corvette Z06. Torch red, 8000 miles on it. He got it for like $34k, which was a steal. It was at a Toyota-Volvo dealer. Can't imagine what they traded it in on. Anyway, here he is with near-supercar performance that I've had the privilege of experiencing in both the passenger's and driver's seat (current supercar performance, I should add), while the rest of us are talking about Porsche Turbos that, with a few options, easily exceed the $100k mark. Regardless of perfection, if I can't afford it, why should I care? That's kind of how I feel.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,974
    I don't quite get that type of response either. I'm trying to understand what is "insulting" about it, but what I'm seeing is really one slap and a counter-slap kind of thing ====> It's like saying "I am allowed to say my $30K car is as good as your $70K car, but you are not allowed to say 'yeah, but it's still a $30K car' ".

    I mean, one testy remark will usually inspire another, as any Internet host knows for certain :P

    so I'd view it as a "double-fault" myself. YRMV.

    I think the game of "my sword is bigger than your sword" goes back to the days when we were all wrapped in animal skins.

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,124
    Are you talking to me??? :mad: :mad: :mad:

    Oh, wait... I see what you mean.. ;)

    I guess I'm a little bit of a snob, too.. I feel superior because I don't care what other people think of my car...

    My wife keeps wanting me to cheer for her home state university's sports teams... "But, I cheer for your team".

    Fine, but I couldn't care less if you didn't... I know my team is best... your opinion is not important..

    We get along really well.. :surprise:

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  • rroyce10rroyce10 Posts: 9,359
    ... **Well I don't know any Porsche owners like that. Who on earth are you talking to? Miami hairdressers? Like I said, if someone buys a Porsche as a poseur's car they will quickly tire of it and be disappointed. I see that all the time. It's a driver's car 100% and if one thinks they are buying a German SC430 or an SL500 they are in for a very rude shock** ...

    Who do I talk to..? .. PGA tour monsters, boat builders, corporate sponsors, home builders, golf course designers - and yes, even Miami hairdressers .. it takes money to own a Porsche and some of those hairdressers make $600/$700 a day ..l.o.l....

    I understand your point about the concept of Porsche, I've bought and sold plenty of them and they're great vehicles .. but it's a very fast and changing market, so your kinda singin' to the choir here, because the Boxster is ho-hum and the Cayenne is right behind it .. I've never knocked Porsche or their great products --- til' the new ones came out ........ ;)



    Terry.
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