Porsche - the world's best car company.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2005

I guess as long as Porsche doesn't have to honor VW warranty claims, it's okay! :P

scott1256 · September 2005

http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml

Fourth article down: a good summary of the situation.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2005

Well sounds like we guessed right about the "politics" end of it....or the economic politics I mean.

kevm14 · September 2005

Ok I went there. And found out that a 2005 911 Carrera S is going to cost 30 grand MORE to "run" over 5 years than a 2005 C6. That includes the depreciation estimate. Add that on top of the purchase price which was already 36 grand more (before Porsche's infamous options tally).

Mr_Shiftright · September 2005

Nope, it's $21K more including depreciation, after 5 years. I just checked it again. That represents total out of pocket. And if you check repair and maintenance, it's pretty close for both cars.

kyfdx · September 2005

Yeah.. it isn't "on top of" the purchase price..... Purchase price has nothing to do with cost to own... at least not directly...

Depreciation
Finance charges/Opportunity cost (this is where purchase price comes in)
Maintenance
Repairs
Insurance
Fuel

So once those are all taken into account, you don't add the difference in purchase price on top of it... That is reflected in the Depreciation and Finance charges.

regards,
kyfdx
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Mr_Shiftright · September 2005

Well more to the point is that ALL new cars cost a lot of money to maintain and repair. Labor rates are the same basically at a Chevy dealer or a Porsche dealer and most parts are about the same price, too---a power window motor for a Corvette or a 911 costs just about the same (I checked). In some cases the American product is more. A Viper crate engine is $13,000, a 996 crate engine is $7,900.

SO---the reason the 911 ends up costing somewhat more for maintenance and repair is not the COST of these items but the FREQUENCY....a 911 has a more rigorous maintenance schedule than a Corvette because it needs it.

In turn, for the more rigorous maintainence, you'll generally get a Porsche that will last longer and give higher miles than a Corvette---if you care about longevity. I realize for many Americans this is a non-issue.

I know part of the Benz business plan was to cut down maintenance schedules on their products to give owners some relief. Not sure if this was a good idea.

starrow68 · October 2005

http://www.forbes.com/2005/09/30/porsche-cayman-coupes-cx_dl_1003feat_ls.html

They do go on at length about what they like about the Company.

xkss · October 2005

a 996 crate engine is $7,900.

A 996 GT3 crate engine will cost a lot more than that. GT3 engines don't suffer from RMS leaks and are used in the race cars in ALMS and Grand-Am.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

Nope, just saw the bill on one, it's $7,900 in the box. Go look again. Sitting right there in front of me.

GT3 engines are based on the 993 block (the old air cooled block).

xkss · October 2005

A brand-new GT3 engine runs $ 45,250; outright as of 9/30/05. This information is from Steve Weiner of the following Porsche website:

link

Porsche makes a lot of money from regular 996s, 997s, and Boxsters because they don't have the high-quality engine in the GT3, GT2, and Turbo.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

I said a normal 996 engine is $7,900. Are we clear on that?

A GT3 engine is a whole other animal. That much, huh? Well probably. I know GT3 brake rotors are something like $8,000.

Yeah, I don't much like the 996 engine for quality either.

highender · October 2005

down on a run to LA again....got the family and one extra , plus all the usual luggage....

stupid Porsche product....the damn thing runs too quiet, my wife says...it darn near got her in trouble...going so fast and no noise....the engine hardly even working....2800 rpm only...speed = "classsified"

would I get a corvette ? I would love one....if I had no kids.. Or even a 911. Porsche may be slightly higher to maintain...but it seems to me that all ....ALL ....car makers are catching up....take any car to the dealer...and you are talking about hundreds of dollars...then on to thousands. You can find a good mechanic to work on your Porsche for thousands less than the dealer...if you try.

went to friends' house in Riverside....boy....... they use a cayenne as everyday cruiser...saves the big stuff for special occasions....

new Mercedes/McLaren SLR with 350 miles and new Maybach 65 in garage. Wife tried the adjustable rear seats..nice... I tried the SLR.....man... if you are taller than me (5'8"), then you may bang your head on the gullwing doors....seats are snug...good for performance...bad for long trips....

Hmm...I still like the idea of a Porsche super sedan....... so do the friends....

I agree that the idiotic Cayenne may be a little late to the ball...now that gas prices are up.... stupid Porsche product... :P

kevm14 · October 2005

You know I read an article on the Trailblazer SS. I know it's not a Porsche (not even close), but it might provide a lot of the speed (and all of the room) for a fraction of the price. I think it also stops and handles decently (not like a Porsche though). I think it's like 395hp and MSRP of $32k after incentives. Just stirring the pot, even though I think this is technically off-topic.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

not "technically", but "totally" :P

But to veer back on topic a bit, you know how it is...one can compare cars on paper and they look very close. Then you drive them and you say "oh, I get it". Is a tricked out Camaro really a Corvette? No.

Porsche is great at marketing that's true but I have to say they do deliver what they promise. Of course, sometimes you get what you didn't want, too

highender · October 2005

agree with shifty...

the Cayman is doing well..handles great...and looks pretty good.

Of course... It would be nice if Porsche would simplify some systems and increase quality... There are a few complaints about Cayenne that needs ironing out....

the quality of the 911 and 986 are really good.

Porsche Parade was held in Hershey , PENN, recently. More than 1700 attended , with 500 porsches on display. Next time it will be on the West Coast, Portland , Oregon....

jaserb · October 2005

Only Porsche could sell a hardtop for MORE than the convertible version. There's over a $4k difference between the base prices of a Boxster S and Cayman S. Crazy. I know there's more difference between the Cayman and Boxster than just the top, but this is an excellent example of the pricing power that Porsche has over its customers.

-Jason

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

Probably a European habit. Convertibles aren't very popular among driving enthusiasts in Europe--they much prefer the coupes.

scott1256 · October 2005

Convertibles sell well in Europe but they tend to be the lower to mid range cars.

If it weren't for North American demand there might not be many convertible Euro supercars.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

They might not even continue to build the convertible version of some supercars were it not for USA, that's true.

But the US market is a BIG market if you can afford to get into it, and the automaker has to cater to it or face the consequences.

We don't like everything the Europeans like and vice-versa. They like hatches and generally are not all that fond of ragtops, and we are the opposite.

lemmer · October 2005

Call me European, I guess.

I'll take my MGB as a GT, my M3, Z3 and Z4 as coupes, my 911, 968 and 944 sans Cabriolet, my 300ZX with t-tops, my 350Z with a slicktop, and cancel my Boxster S in favor of a Cayman.

The only car I can think of off the top of my head that I might prefer as a convertible was the 2nd generation RX-7, and it was a dog.

designman · October 2005

Yep, maybe you can call me European too. I like smoking cigars in restaurants, would like to sleep in the middle of the day instead of working, punch out before 6PM... government sponsored healthcare programs (but without the taxes)... and I wish, o-oh I wish I had a guilt-free 6-week vacation.

Other than that Im American. Luv the two-seat drop top.

;-)

andys120 · October 2005

Although I agree with your choices of Coupes for most of the cars you cited, I'm really a convertible/Roadster guy. Given the choice I'd find it very difficult to choose between a
a Boxster S and a Cayman S. :confuse:

I guess my tastes are Euro-American. :shades:

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

Depends where you live...maybe in Southern Cal a convertible is great but in the Bay Area it's not really care-free top down weather all that often....either too cold or too hot. I always thought Colorado was the ideal climate for a convertible June-Sept and sometimes even in winter on a bright sunny day!

But convertibles are risky these days with sun damage to skin etc...you gotta be careful. And of course there's the security issue---park a ragtop in San Francisco streets overnight-----don't think so!

I think Porsche is reading the USA correctly with the Cayman coupe. Most Porsche owners I know drive coupes not converts.

Yeah, there are aspects of Europeans habits that are very appealing, even if our refrigerators are bigger than theirs....

scott1256 · October 2005

There are a lot of upper bracket car buyers in the USA. Most manufacturers build models aimed at this market group.

I expect Porsche built the Turbo cabrio and C4 cabrio models with the US market in mind.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

I guess it depends on which price level Porsche is building for. If it's the supercar/exotic level, a cabriolet doesn't make any sense. Convertibles aren't much fun after about 85 mph unless you are wearing a helmet.

andys120 · October 2005

I guess it depends on which price level Porsche is building for. If it's the supercar/exotic level, a cabriolet doesn't make any sense. Convertibles aren't much fun after about 85 mph unless you are wearing a helmet.

Yet Porsche's superexotic Carrera GT, unlike it's rivals from Ferrari, Saleen, McLaren-Merc and others has a removable top.

It doesn't make sense to me either but then superexotics aren't very sensible are they? :shades:

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

Very silly....the driver's toupee might get sucked into the air intake at those speeds! :P

I'm not sure at what speed exactly a convertible becomes unbearable without a helmet but I do know on motorcycles without a fairing it's about 85 mph.

If not the wind, the noise would be deafening.

habitat1 · October 2005

"I guess it depends on which price level Porsche is building for. If it's the supercar/exotic level, a cabriolet doesn't make any sense. Convertibles aren't much fun after about 85 mph unless you are wearing a helmet."

Check your logic on that one. The maximum speed limit in about 98% of the U.S. is 70 mph or less. If I took your logic that a convertible doesn't make sense in a high performance car, I might conclude that a high performance car doesn't make sense in the U.S. period.

I recognized that in buying a 911S Cab, I was giving up some extreme limit performance to the coupe model. But that's not something I'm going to notice 99.5% of the time. On the other hand, of my 2,900 miles in the first 6 weeks, the top has been down about 50% of those miles, at speeds up to 75+ mph. And putting my girls in the back of a coupe would have been a near impossibility - nothing to do with size/space, everything to do with "fun". I can't even complain that my highway trips with the top up are less comfortable. I'm sure that the coupe is a little quieter, but the 911 Cab is like an S-class Mercedes compared to my former S2000.

So, the fact that the Cayman can outperform the Boxster S at it's limits would still have me questioning, how important is that for someone who isn't going to take the car to the track? Remember, the Boxste S has a top speed of over 165 and, prior to the Cayman, was the fastest car through the slalom ever tested by Road and Track, Enzo included. I respect those who prefer the coupe to a convertible for other reasons - and I used to myself, primarily becaouse of aestheitcs. But the Boxster S and 911 Cab S don't give up much in performance to anyone who hasn't qualified for the Formula 1 circuit.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

Yep I'd agree, a high performance car makes no actual sense in the USA unless you can track it....which of course some Porsche owners do, and then of course they'd want a coupe. This is one reason I like fast little cars with tiny engines. My friend's Porsche 356 C production SCCA racer is plenty fast with 1.6 liters and probably no more than 120 HP.

I'd love to see Porsche come out with a little small engine sprint coupe.

rroyce10 · October 2005

...... Keep in mind Habitat ....

"Most" people don't buy a 911, Audi TT, Boxster, Viper or a Vette because they're fast .. most people buy them to "look" fast ...

Terry

habitat1 · October 2005

I'll give you 50/50 on that answer, based on my personal purchase decision.

If "fast" is defined as a 182 mph top speed, no, that was not a factor in my decision to get a 911 S. I could have been just as happy with the base model's 177 mph, or the Boxster S's 167 mph. Heck, virtually all of BMW's and Mercedes are limited to 130 or 155 in the U.S.

But I did buy the 911 S based upon performance - quickness, handling, and that highly subjective driving "feel". If all I wanted to do was buy a car that looked fast and didn't car about performance, I could have saved a boatload of bills. But that's the opposite of my general preference for substance over image.

You may be right about the Audi TT - that people buy them to look fast - since of the cars you mentioned, that one doesn't much in the way of performance to back its looks. And there are others, like the Lexus SC, that charge even more for the looks without the performance.

Shifty,

I also agree with your "less can be more" opinion. I had a great time with my former S2000 that made the most of a 2.0 liter engine and a 9,000 rpm redline. You couldn't have traded me a Viper or Corvette Z06 even up for it. They may have been "faster" but they were well below it in visceral performance and fun to drive, at least here in the US.

rroyce10 · October 2005

... **But I did buy the 911 S based upon performance - quickness, handling, and that highly subjective driving "feel" ...**

I didn't pick any particular vehicles for any particular reasons ....

Do I believe "you" bought "your" 911S because of the performance, quickness, handling, etc etc .. yes, I do.! ....... but 75/80% of the buyers purchase a Lambo, 911, DB-7, Vette, Ferrari, Ford GT, etc, because of two things ... the looks and what "crowd" thinks -- and that has nothing to do with the performance, handling, quickness, etc ........

Terry.

scott1256 · October 2005

Most convertibles shelter you quite well from wind at higher speeds. An open car is not really comparable to an unfaired bike.

I have been in the 90-100 mph range in more than one ragtop and never found the breeze too extreme.

I will grant that a driver might lose a toupee in an open car at 120+ mph.

habitat1 · October 2005

"but 75/80% of the buyers purchase a Lambo, 911, DB-7, Vette, Ferrari, Ford GT, etc, because of two things ... the looks and what "crowd" thinks -- and that has nothing to do with the performance, handling, quickness, etc ........"

I may be wrong, but that's where I think Porsche may be a little different - at least if you compare the 911 to the others in its general price class. Especially the new 997 S.

Many years ago, long before I could have afforded a 911, I questioned why someone whould buy a 911 Turbo instead of a sleek Ferrari 328, Lotus Espirt, or Lamborghini Countach. I thought - and in some ways still do - that the Ferrari was the best looking sports car on the planet. For me, Ferrari defined "exotic", whereas Porsche was more aptly described as "teutonic".

But, turn the clock forward about 20 years, and when I got to the point where I could afford a nice sports car, the 911's virtues became meaningful. Not the least of which is that it is a car you can drive every day. Perhaps if I were in a higher socioeconomic bracket I would be singing the virtues of a Ferrari that only comes out on sunny weekends once a month. But in 7 weeks, I'm guessing that my 2,900 miles exceeds the average annual mileage of most Ferrari owners by 50%.

I certainly would not dispute that some 911's are purchased for purely its "looks" by status seekers looking to impress the crowds. But I've also run into a fair number of other 911 owners that are about as practical as they come.

Now, the Lamborghini is a different matter. Anyone that would subject themselves to the brutality of driving that car on public roads is either a complete hard core masochist or a seeking the attention you describe (or both).

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

it has been my experience that people who buy a Porsche for "posing" purposes soon get rid of it, and are rather disappointed very often. Why? Because for the $$$ they spent, most of the effort went into the car's performance capabilities at the extreme limits, not into comfy cushy things.

So I think a lot of the poseurs quickly shuffle off to a Lexus SC430 once they've sobered up to what a Porsche really is.

Some people do criticize Porsche for not giving people "their money's worth" but that depends on what you think is "worth" the money.

There is the old cliche that the most brilliant performer/film director/musicians actually create their audience rather than please a ready-made one.

starrow68 · October 2005

You say the 911 is for performance but the base Vette Coupe out does it on the track, easily, unless you get in TT territory. If the performance is not for the track but for public roads, then what performance (?), the limits you have aren't going to test what the car is capable of doing. If you mean just being comfortable driving around corners but not knowing that the limits are way beyond keeping the car at the speed limit and ignoring the warning limits posted on corners is that really worth $90k +? By comfortable I include the fit/finish and higher level of interior engineering that comes with the price, not just the ride.
Randy

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

We are talking about Porsche as a business and its products/marketing. The old Porsche/Corvette argument is for somewhere else I think, maybe in the Coupes board.

Obviously a Porsche is worth the money because lots of people buy them. The question answers itself.

rroyce10 · October 2005

.. **it has been my experience that people who buy a Porsche for "posing" purposes soon get rid of it, and are rather disappointed very often. Why? Because for the $$$ they spent, most of the effort went into the car's performance capabilities at the extreme limits, not into comfy cushy things**

... **Some people do criticize Porsche for not giving people "their money's worth" but that depends on what you think is "worth" the money **

Yep, that pretty much sums it up ........................

Terry.

scott1256 · November 2005

I really admire Porsche for offering almost every one of their models as an open car.

It isn't possible to spend a lot of time driving at 10/10ths on public hiways. There are many days when it's just nice to be in an open car basking in the scenery and the atmosphere (in your case with your daughters there enjoying it with you).

Enjoy those girls while they are with you! Tempus fugit, as it say on the clock.

scott1256 · November 2005

through October are about even. The Boxster is really hot, the 911 is doing OK and the Cayenne is on the skids. (Bye, bye Cayenne: Hello, Panamera!)

Cayenne sales for the month: -46.8%
Cayenne sales 2005 year to date: -26.5%
Boxster sales for month: +362%
Boxster sales 2005 to date: +210%
911 sales for month: +16.8%
911 sales 2005 to date: +2.0%

kyfdx · November 2005

Do you have the raw numbers? I'd be surprised if the Cayenne wasn't still the overall leader in number of units sold...

regards,
kyfdx
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scott1256 · November 2005

still 42.6% of total Porsche sales in October.

Porsche needs the volume/income the Cayenne provides, although the Boxster and 911 combined outsell it.

IMO the Panamera sedan (with coupe and convertible variants) would replace Cayenne's volume and be much more in character with Porsche's image.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

Lots 'o reasons but 16 LeMans wins (outright wins, none of this "in class" business) couldn't hurt the marketing. Not many cars can claim that. Heritage is a good sales tool that requires very little horn-tooting.

andys120 · November 2005

Oh I quite agree that Porsche's great racing heritage is the keystone of their appeal but let's not knock the in-class victories. They didn't win Sebring outright until 1960
and they didn't win at LeMans until the emergence of the Porsche 917 in 1970. Before that there were scads of in-class wins that earned for Porsche the reputation as the sturdiest, best engineered of sports cars.

The expenditures involved in co-engineering the Cayenne took Porsche out of big time sports car racing for seven years which is why I still hate the thing. I'm starting to get over it since Porsche's new RS Spyder LMP-2 is now running in ALMS.

It took an in-class win

in the LMP-2 class at it's maiden race this fall at Laguna Seca. A Porsche took 3 of the 4 classes at Laguna Seca, losing the overall and LMP-1 in which they did not compete.

There are some who believe that the Penske-Porsche RS Spyder is capable of
winning ALMS or LeMans races outright. I wouldn't know but it seems possible since Audi seems to be winding down it's LMP-1 program.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

Ah yes, all true but the outright wins separate you from the pack. It's a more exclusive club. Outright win means you beat all comers from anywhere in the world. Everybody loves a winner.

starrow68 · November 2005

Andy, Since Porsche ran in only two of the four classes at LS it would have been tough to win in three. The P1 winner:
The Zytek chassis became the 15th different marque to win in the ALMS (and sixth in P1), and its engine is the 13th different one to post an ALMS victory (sixth in class).

Just for the record ...

slimjim1 · November 2005

I see you guys metioning Porsche crate motors. I am pricing out weather it is cheaper to rebuild my 87 928 S4 engine or buy a crate motor. Does anyone know where I can find a V-8 32v 928 crate motor???

jrosasmc · November 2005

Slimjim, has the original engine in your 928 given up the ghost? How many miles did it have when it went?

Mr_Shiftright · November 2005

You should discuss this in Repair and Maintenance or the Coupes Boards. This is more of a Porsche as a business discussion.

Or you can e-mail me about 928s and I can help you.

Porsche - the world's best car company.

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