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Porsche - the world's best car company.

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Comments

  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Very true! The domestics and Japanese are losing potential profit with option packages vs. individual options.

    They should offer a wide range of options and price the options so they are profitable. As you point out, people in the 60s paid 20% of the car's MSRP for the Hemi option: A/C in the early days was very expensive.

    I think painting the cabin air outlet vanes in the exterior color is a neat option! Same with seat belt colors, etc: put a price tag on it and let the buyer decide.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Good marketing? Sure. Good product? Sure. But why revel in getting fleeced?"

    I could make the claim that for me, paying any amount of money for any GM product - even the Corvette - would feel like being fleeced. I just can't accept that low level of fit and finsih and lack of interior quality, no matter how low the price went or how high the track performance got.

    So, rather than question the other persons' motives or preferences, let's just say that value is in the eye of the beholder. And in Porsche's case, they are obviously able to create more value in the eyes of their beholders than GM is with it's discounts on top of discounts plan.
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    It is an issue of perception and then comparison. I have to admit I'm approaching this from the low end so I don't notice what others complain about on the Vette. The C5 is a solid car that is far beyond former versions, I drove a 1995 C4 for a year. But I would aggree with your perspective that value is what we all pay for and those that see value are not getting fleeced.

    As to the option pricing, since I got the top package for less than the sum of the parts I will be very happy that the Corvette has one price for all the top end options. GM can sort out it own issues elsewhere. I will just have to watch the quality improvement curve and try to replace at the point where things aren't going down swiftly.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    The Cayman is starting out well and a big increase for the 911 series as well.

    Cayenne continues to slide but still accounts for 31.8% of all Porsche sales.
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    After 3 years on track and passing a fair number of Boxster's, mostly S's, I was surprised on Monday at Laguna Seca when a Cayman S pulled up on me in my first session. I got it by quickly and was able to stay close for a couple laps, just a tad quicker in a couple places while I was able to make up some ground through the corkscrew, to my surprise. I have yet to be passed by a Boxster even with aftermarket suspension and race tires. Don't know what the set up was or the tires, as I left fairly early since it looked like there might be rain. Looks to be a good package.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    this week at Autoextremist, Peter DeLorenzo's auto site. Peter's record as an automotive trend spotter is good.

    Porsche's better hope Peter is wrong this time!

    First link is direct: scroll down the second for the Porsche opinion.

    http://www.autoextremist.com/page5.shtml

    http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think his criticism could apply to most high-tech sports cars today. They post incredible numbers on paper and are less and less "involving" for the driver.

    This is why my love for Porsches stops at rear engine 2WD 993s....the newer ones don't interest me. They've lost that 'electric' feel entirely.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I can't really comment on the 997 being less "electric" than the 993, since I've only ridden in a 993 a couple of times, a few years ago.

    But I would challenge Peter DeLorenzo's opinion that there is a lot of competition catching up to or exceeding the 997. And that the 911 doesn't offer good value.

    What, pray tell, did I overlook when I was shopping? The Chevy Corvette with it's Malibu like interior? I don't really need a car faster than the 0-60 time of 3.9 seconds Road and Track got out of the 911S, but I guess I would like something that at least matched my former Honda S2000 in interior quality and fit and finish. Chevy doesn't come close. And nothing by BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc., etc. offered the sports car driving feel I was looking for. It may be less visceral than the old 993, but I preferred the 997S to the 996 Turbo I tried out.

    I even would have happily considered a Honda/Acura alternative to the 911, since I had such a good experience with the S2000 alternative to the Boxster (at least the pre 2005 "base" version). But alas, nothing.

    As for the 911's price and mile long option list? Sure, I'd like it to be less. But, again, what are the alternatives? And why does it continue to hold top honors in resale value for its class?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well I don't agree that the competition is catching up, because the Porsche is a unique vehicle, like the Ferrari. Even if you could match the numbers precisely, you still would not have created a Porsche or Ferrari. They are just too eccentric, and should have no fear of mass-produced conventional vehicles, no matter how good they are. Of course, this presumes that Porsche and Ferrari do not abandon their genetic code.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Funny that you mention Ferrari.

    A (fortunate) friend of mine owned a 328 which he sold several years ago. He has worked his way up to being next on the list for a 430 Spider 6-speed, due in early March. The dealer put him in touch with another 430 owner, who allowed him to drive his car. My friend's assessment was that, although the performance of the 430 is light years ahead of the 328, it doesn't have the same "visceral" feel!

    At this point, he's still going through with the purchase, since it's a financial no brainer - buy for MSRP, drive for 1 year, sell for a profit. But, in his words, he doubts he will ever have the same affection for the 430 as his old 328.

    Maybe we are just all nostalgic?
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    IMO Porsche interiors are far ahead of any (non-British origin) cars.

    The color choices and color accent options mean you can spec a car that is (in some cases) a one-off.

    You describe the Corvette interior as 'Mailbu like'. You are referring to the C5 Vette, not the new C6, correct?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Corvette interiors are getting better but for that price you aren't going to get the quality of materials you get in a Porsche. To balance the lack of a price advantage, Porsche offers fabulous (if a touch spartan) interiors of high durability, as well as the prestige of ordering a car pretty much the way you want it.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Porsche has interiors down pat. I love all the color options available for seat belts, headliners, stitching, seat inserts, etc.

    They leave all the other European and US manufacturers (except the high end Brits like RR and Bentley) in the shade.

    IMO only a person who has never sat in a C6 Corvette would describe the interior as 'Malibu-like'.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    You describe the Corvette interior as 'Mailbu like'. You are referring to the C5 Vette, not the new C6, correct?

    You are correct, the C5 is the only one I've ever been in, myself. But from what I've read, even among Z06 owners, the new one still has a lot of hard plastic and substandard interiors. Great performance bang for the buck, but not much to look at inside. I will try getting by a dealer to check one out for myself.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    You will find a very creditable interior in the C6.

    The price keeps it from being as good as the 911 or high end British cars, but still a very good interior.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I dunno...my friend's 2000 Vette interior is not wearing well. They can't only "look" nice, they have to be durable, is the problem. His side bolsters are shot...and the car creaks and rattles like a taxicab. (but it is a convertible, so....). And he is not a gentle man.

    But you're right, you get what you pay for. I could upholster a Vette in frogskins for the price diff against a Porsche.
  • shiphroshiphro Member Posts: 62
    Earlier there was talk of Porsche motors and how Porsche would never lower themselves by using a subaru engine. Is it common knowledge that the base Cayenne is running w/ a VW engine?

    Also, buying 20% of VW now seems like a very smart decision to me. They've nailed the first half of the equation (Buy Low, Sell High) and new VW models (200hp GTI) are just hitting North America. I think that purchase could generate a ton of revenue for Porsche.
  • ubbermotorubbermotor Member Posts: 307
    Porsche 924 (the original) shared its dismal Architecture with the Audi Fox/VW Dasher.

    The 914, powered by Microbus.

    The 356 was a volkswagen wasn't it?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Only the very very early 356s were VW sourced...cars in museums, say from 1949 or 1950. Every 356 after that is its own engine.

    they may look a little alike, but the difference internally between a 356 Porsche and VW engine is considerable. One looks very crude (the VW) internally next to the other. Even the cases are different. VW engines were short-lived and low revving compared to Porsche.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    You are right on the money. F1 is like a circus. Infact many news outlets admit "Its Bernie's circus".

    Besides Le Mans is entire F1 season in one race. Its trajic Ferrari does not participate the way it does in F1.

    Its a myth that Ferrari pulled out of LeMans due to Ford. The fact is, Ferrari was runners-up in 1973 behind Matra. It was 1st in qualifying.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    I wonder how many frogs will be needed for each vette. Quite a few!

    Your comments on air-cooled porsche make sense. Besides, the gazillion electronic circuits in todays porsche would make it extremely painful for any rebuild adventures.

    I wonder how these post 2000 models will do after 10+ years. Electronics will be "the" achilles heel for quite a few manufacturers now and more so in future.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    It is not easy to reproduce the porsche experience. Their cars are just so different.

    BMW is another story. Its products are highly capable, yet Infiniti, Acura and lately Lexus have been able to come out with some unexpectedly great products. You cannot say they have less than BMW handling. Of course, the perception that BMW has benchmark handling is still quite inescapable, but reality is not as close to it as many think.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Porsche will have to be careful not to let their 'sharing' with VW get too blatant.

    Porsche owners respect the Porsche heritage and pedigree.

    Parts/engines in a Porsche that are obviously VW-spec will turn off loyal customers.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well modern cars can have up to 70 computers onboard (!!) and 35 million lines of code in them, so I have a feeling that either these cars will be scrapped much more readily than they are now (parted out) or that a small industry of very expensive, very specialized geeks will be repairing them. I doubt that even dealers will elect to work on ten year old electronics, as they will be spending all their time training people to work on the 2016 models.

    Already I am seeing more and more specialty independent shops refusing to work on older cars for this very reason....they don't have the test equipment or the tech literature or the parts supplies.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    The incoming generation of auto repair specialists (those at school now in their early 20s) is very computer savvy.

    I expect that in time a sub-trade of computer and data restoration experts will spring up.

    It may be cheaper than expected to repair onboard computers once it is done on a production basis.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    they can't even fix today's cars half the time. The technology is going too fast is the problem...it accelerates exponentially. It isn't about intelligence, it's about the capacity to ingest so much information that is changing so rapidly.

    the higher the tech in the car, like in a Porsche, the worse this will get.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    good first quarter this year.

    Sales are up 26.3% for the year and 911 sales are way up. Cayman has sold 2,000+ units so far, but it looks like many of those sales are taken away from the Boxster.

    The Cayenne seems to be finding its own stable level. Sales are nearly even with 2005 for this year to date.

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/04/03/002905.html
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    In spite of increases in 911 sales, much of which are attributed to the new-model AWD 911s, Carrera coupe sales are way down—there lies much of the Cayman sales. I think this is great news for the future of mid-engine Porsches. If this pattern continues, I would expect to see more powerful, higher-priced middies in the not-too-distant future, perhaps replacing the base Carrera.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    agree..shifty.

    THE increase in sophistication and complexity is such that one cannot do his own repairs anymore...
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    it was the late 90's Bi-Turbo in dark purple. :shades:

    I also liked the Porsche Gambala's or whatever they were called. Sir Mix-Alot used to rap about driving them.

    Rocky
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    I like the treatments that Gemballa does to its porsches....both on the 911 and on the Cayenne.

    There are a few on sale on dupont Registry....makes me salivate when I see them.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "In spite of increases in 911 sales, much of which are attributed to the new-model AWD 911s, Carrera coupe sales are way down—there lies much of the Cayman sales."

    I am not sure I follow your math, or logic.

    911 (997) coupe sales are hardly "way down". Year to date 1,209 vs. 1,388 last year. But recall that last year, the cabriolet was just barely hitting the market - cabriolet sales are up nearly 10 fold to 1,621 this year vs. 180 last year. Surely some of last years 997 coupe sales might have gone to cabs, if they were available. Porsche continued to make more cabriolets than coupes throughout this winter to catch up with demand.

    Boxster sales are in fact, way down - only 1,127 this year vs. 1,752 last year, just a year after the 2005 model redesign. So it seems to me that if the Cayman's 2,200+ sales are cannibalizing anything, the 635 fewer Boxster sales tell the story. The 911 coupe sales are only down 179 and the total 911 sales are up substantially.

    Inventories tell a similar story. According to their websites, the 4 closest dealers to me in the DC area have a total of 52 Boxsters, 34 Caymens and 67 911's in stock, but of the 911's, only 18 are coupes (49 cabs).

    According to my dealer, very few serious prospective 911 coupe buyers actually drop down to the Cayman S. Especially if they are previous 911 owners. Rather, far more prospective Boxster buyers are impressed with the Cayman's performance and like the looks of the coupe vs. the roadster. When you factor in better anticipated resale, the Cayman isn't much, if any, more expensive than the Boxster S in total cost to own.

    I will admit that I too would have thought the Cayman might steal sales from the base 911 coupe - but that just doesn't seem to be the case.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Habitat, I’m speaking strictly about the C2 Coupe. You included the C2, C2S, C4 and C4S Coupes.

    911 Carrera coupe YTD:
    Current year: 277
    Prior Year: 789

    Compare that with the Carrera S YTD:
    Current year: 507
    Prior Year: 599

    That’s quite a disparity in percentage: -65% C2 vs -15% C2S. Can’t be sure of the reason, but I believe more than enough C2 interest turned Cayman. Plus, there are plenty of buyer testimonials that support this.

    I never said Boxster sales weren’t down. Some Boxster S interest had to turn Cayman. It is curious how the Boxster S dip was -48% vs the C2 -65%.

    It will be interesting to see how this progresses and how Porsche parses this. I think there’s a well-calculated reason why they positioned Cayman between the Boxster S and C2. I believe it is to measure acceptance within the 911 market, then pace the mid-engine evolution accordingly.

    Just opinion.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I can see your point with respect to the base C2 coupe, and you may be right.

    But I think it also is worth remembering that new 911 (997) buyers only had a few choices in early 2005. Now they have 8-9 models to choose from, and more coming. So is it lower demand for the C2 coupe, or lower production as the various model options have increased?

    If, in fact, the demand for the C2 coupe is lower due to the Cayman, Porsche seems to have done a good job predicting it, since of all of the 911's in stock at the area dealerships from my previous survey, the base C2 coupe is the rarest of all. It looks like only 5, compared to 34 Caymans.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    The new 911 turbo coming out has 480 hp...30 more than the previous 911TT. This is due to the innovative variable turbine geometry (VTG) turbo design.

    They have been using this design for years in diesels...but could not get it to work in gasoline cars. The production hurdles in gas cars were insurmountable. The turbine temperatures in diesels approach only 1400 F, whereas in gasoline cars...turbine temperatures approach 1850 F.....significantly higher . This causes the turbo to burn down , the components to warp.

    Porsche figured out a way to get the metals used in aerospace construction, and coordinate it with the other various materials so that their interaction at high temperature would not hinder function. The materials all expand at diff rates at diff temps...and using engineering and modern calculations...Porsche was able to make the worlds FIRST VTG turbo.... This turbo spins at a high rate even at idle...so there is virtually no turbo lag....and at each operational point, there is an optimized impact angle and optimal turbine cross section.

    Porsche made it happen.....

    On another note....Porsche Consulting was hired by Freiburg University Hospital to increase efficiency and optimize hospital processes. They used their know how to optimize production, and applied it to hospitals. Wow...

    Not to mention the many , "ahem", ....secret help Porsche gave to other auto manufacturers....

    Of course, all this is under the table...so that the other auto makers will not lose face.

    ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Date posted: 05-04-2006

    WINTERLINGEN, Germany — Lumma Design has been doing its magic to German cars for a few decades, starting with convertible conversions of the Opel GT in the 1980s.

    In the 1990s, it specialized in Mercedes-Benz and Audi. So transforming the Porsche Cayenne now was perhaps a foregone conclusion.

    According to Lumma boss Horst Lumma, the standard Cayenne "looks too smart and neat." So his latest creation, the CLR400 GT, is out to change that. It is definitely not for the shy. The Lumma Cayenne has an ultra-aggressive stance that is helped by special 22-inch wheels; a new front end including double headlights, new bumper and three-part grille; a shocking rear with four exhaust pipes; and a tough black color scheme.

    But the CLR400 GT isn't just a looker. The Cayenne S on which it is based is capable of 340 horsepower, but various modifications in the engine bay result in 470 hp from the 4.5-liter V8 engine.

    The body conversion alone costs around $27,000, while the height-adjustable chassis and special wheels add another $13,000. More power? The customer is always right; that will be another $24,000.

    What this means to you: Visit picturesque Germany for its beer, its Black Forest — and its hot tuner cars.

    Rocky
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    the best quality cars from the most profitable car company!

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0cf225
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    From a news letter on the auto industry on quality, not what I would have expected ...

    "Porsche plunges

    But paying high sticker prices is no guarantee of long-term quality.

    The Porsche brand plunged from No. 2 in the 2005 study to No. 22 in this year's study, as its problems per 100 score jumped from 149 for the 2002 model year to 248 for the 2003 model year."
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Those are the older model 986 Boxsters and 996 911s. And I think a lot of that pertains to little niggling repair issues. For instance, the windshield washer fluid hose is prone to disconnect... simple fix.

    Nice to hear from you Randy, it's been a while. You still haven't given up slammin' Porsche... heh, heh... some things never change.

    ;-)
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I also noticed Porsche's plunge in the list, which is posted in the J D Power discussion at this board.

    Designman, there must be more than just a loose washer fluid hose contributing to the low rating. Be interesting to hear if anyone has details.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,165
    Did the Cayenne come out in 03? Maybe it could be the sucker-punch the ML was for Mercedes.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    2003 was indeed the first year for the Cayenne.

    Maybe somebody has model data available for individual Porsche models and will post it.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Did the Cayenne come out in 03?

    Yes it was neglect not considering that in my last post (slaps forehead with base of palm). Indeed, Cayenne reliability dragged Porsche down in the surveys. As a matter of fact there was another JD Power survey some time ago where Porsche was down at the bottom of the list because of Cayenne. However, the later years of the previous generation 911 and Boxster although considered reliable do not appear to be as reliable as the new ones.

    Commence shaking the Porsche pom-poms as the haughty title of this thread suggests. ;)
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    2007 model year, says the Autoextremist this week. Cayennes are 'stacked up like cordwood' at dealers all around the country.

    He thinks that Porsche is making a mistake promoting itself as 'The world's most profitable car company' rather that emphasizing the vehicles that drive the profits.

    You can read his take on Porsche in both the 'Rants' and 'On the table' sections at the website.

    http://www.autoextremist.com/index.shtml
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the Cayenne had some head gasket problems. Strange, because the engine is basically the tried and true 928 motor from a decade or more ago.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Yes, I understand the engine is a slightly modified 928 motor. The 928 motor (I thought) had a reputation for anvil like durability. You read about a lot of very high mileage 928s still running. Has anyone heard a reason why this motor has problems in Cayennes?

    The point in the article about Porsche promoting their vehicles rather than their profits is valid.

    Most of us can remember when Porsche was in rough financial shape. I hope the great results of the last 10-15 years doesn't make them careless about development and quality. Great vehicles are the real reason they are so profitable.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I'm sure I won't be here long - I'll be expelled for speaking heresy - but I had the occasion to test drive a Cayenne this week overnight. I feel compelled to ask you all what I missed, as this was clearly the worst example of an SUV/Crossover, whatever you wish to call it I have ever driven. The 3.2L motor is woefully insufficient to move this heavy car around nimbly. You have to have your foot in it all the time, the revs must be around 4,000
    RPM to get any performance out of it at all, and it runs badly too! It hesitates below those RPMs and runs like it's misfiring. Then, the 6 speed transmission is constantly on the hunt, yet dislikes downshifting when you need power. It can't decide what mode it's working in. The ride is very rough, handling is for speed only, which you'd expect, but for what most of us actually drive one for, it's horrible. Worst of all, it leaked a pretty good spot of oil in my driveway, each time I parked it.

    There are some good things; 1) It turns heads! 2) The interior was put together very well - very tight, felt substantial. 3) It was comfortable.

    All in all though, I give it a 2 out of 10 from my experience. Maybe the 8 cylinder is better - but I sure don't get the whole Porsche Quality thing from this particular demo....and I'm not considering one now. YMMV.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The Cayenne is the worst example of a Porsche and the 6 cyl version is the worst example of the Cayenne. A c cyl Cayenne is basically just a VW toureg.

    I have several porsches on my lot right now. Two of them are Cayennes and the rest are Boxters, Caymans and 911s. The Cayenne S is fairly quick and handles well for its weight but it rides much, much to rough. I wouldn't want to drive a vehicle where I sat up that high and it was that rough.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    To me, it's just not a Porsche..... Thank you for your affirmation - glad it's not just me. :blush:
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    You must have been driving a 2006 or older Cayenne. The new 2008 "base" Cayenne has a 3.6 liter 6 cylinder engine. The horsepower increases to 290 from 247 and the torque to 270 from 227 ft. lbs. Faily significant increases for a 4,700+ pound vehicle (weight didn't change).

    I have not driven a new one yet, but we may consider the 6-speed manual transmission version when it becomes available in the fall. We currently have a 2005 MDX and our biggest complaint on it - and even the new 2007 MDX - is the crappy automatic transmission. It's fine on the highway once you get up to cruising speed, but the hesitation in taking off and gear changes around town is annoying.
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