What about the future of Ford Inc??

bobw3 · May 2006

The style of the interior is one thing, but Im more impressed with the Explorer for the interior space. The Tahoe is 9 longer, 4 wider and 5 taller, yet inside the Explorer has 9 more legroom in the 3rd row, but only 2 less in the 2nd row. For the length of the Tahoe, youd think they could put in more space in the 3rd row, and the Tahoe 3rd row doesnt fold out of the way.

Explorer specs:
193.4/72.8/73.7 L/W/H
39.8/38.7/37.4 Head Room Rows 1/2/3
42.4/36.9/34.9 Leg Room Rows 1/2/3

Tahoe specs:
202/77/79 L/W/H
41.1 39.2 37.9 Head Room Rows 1/2/3
41.3 39.0 25.6 Leg Room Rows 1/2/3

chuck1 · May 2006

"The style of the interior is one thing, but Im more impressed with the Explorer for the interior space. The Tahoe is 9 longer, 4 wider and 5 taller, yet inside the Explorer has 9 more legroom in the 3rd row, but only 2 less in the 2nd row. For the length of the Tahoe, youd think they could put in more space in the 3rd row, and the Tahoe 3rd row doesnt fold out of the way."

Yes, but the Tahoe is selling, at a higher transaction price than a year ago. You can tell the difference (a big one) between last years Tahoe and this new model. Can't say that on the Explorer.

HEY!! ALL YOU FORD........... SALESPEOPLE....EMPLOYEES...FANS....ETC...FORD BLEW IT!! The best you can hope for is an order to comedown from Dearborn saying "IMMEDIATE RESTYLE", and realize the mistake like they did in the 500!! Lets' get off the Titanic!

bobw3 · May 2006

Yes, the Tahoe is different than previous years, but the nterior space utilization is still poor. But I guess if new style is the most important feature, then go with the Tahoe.

chuck1 · May 2006

"Yes, the Tahoe is different than previous years, but the interior space utilization is still poor. But I guess if new style is the most important feature, then go with the Tahoe."

I guess interior space utilization isn't that important to some people. Now it looks like the Blazer is the number one selling SUV in the country. I don't have official measurements - sure looks smaller than the Explorer to me though.
The bottom line is this - The new GM full size SUVs have very nice interiors. I bet the pages of the brochures that spell out these measurements is probably the most overlooked. I bet people spend more time looking at the wheels that come with each model more than interior measurements. Most people will just sit in a vehicle they are considering, and if it "fits" them they will buy it. People do not (for the most part) look at the brochure and say for example - "Well the Explorer has 1 1/2" more hip room in the driver's seat" - and this sways them - nope doesn't happen this way.

Remember, those of us here on Edmunds are not average people when it comes to these things......

grbeck · May 2006

igor2: Overall, Ford is still in big trouble... their new product development is frozen, becaue Fields was not happy with the state of the company. When he took over Mazda, he suspended product introduction for 18 months to realign the firm and fully define the brand image... after that, he let the teams finish all the new great mazda products: Mazda6, RX8, MX5 and Mazda3.

That's great for Mazda, and the 18-month suspension obviously worked.

The big problem is that Ford cannot afford ANY delay in new products. The company is already behind Toyota and Honda in key segments. Even worse, if GM's new crossovers are a hit, then Ford will be under even more pressure, as they will steal sales from not only the Freestyle, but also Ford's SUVs. And the new GM full-size pickups are going to turn up the heat on the F-150.

Ford has let so many products wither on the vine - Focus, Ranger, Lincoln LS, Panther cars, Taurus/Sable - that I often wonder if Toyota hasn't secretly installed several moles on the committees in charge of Ford's product planning. This is not a company that wants to compete to win. Anything less in today's brutally competitive market is a ticket to oblivion.

chuck1 · May 2006

"Anything less in today's brutally competitive market is a ticket to oblivion."

Agreed. They got a solid powertrain under the Ranger, yet it's a body style that is many, many years old. By the time Ford brings the European Focus over - it will be like the new Explorer - dead on arrival.

kgford · May 2006

Just to let all of the Ford haters out there know that the GT 500 will have 500 HP and the Fusion will come standard with side impact as well as the canopy system in 2007!!!! By the way an All Wheel Drive version of the Fusion will be available in the 2007 model!!
All I can say is having driven the competion with AWD the Fusion will be awsome!!!! :surprise:

nvbanker · May 2006

In several ways, the Explorer is a better SUV. However, it doesn't look like it - and let's face it - lots and lots of buyers are emotional, not rational buyers.....

chuck1 · May 2006

"Just to let all of the Ford haters out there"
I don't think anyone here "hates Ford". If you do - you don't need to criticize Ford for the poor performance in the market place. They are doing enough themselves.

grbeck · May 2006

Posters here don't hate Ford.

They are, however, very disappointed in a company that appears to have the automotive equivalent of attention deficit disorder when it comes to product planning.

I can't think of any other company that has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory so many times over the past 15+ years.

The original Taurus ended GM's supremacy of the family sedan market and showed Toyota and Honda what a successful midsize family car needs to succeed in this country. And Ford then lets the car wither on the vine after one unsuccessful redo.

The Focus was BETTER than the Civic and Corolla in many ways. But Ford botched the introduction by failing to test many of the new, American-only parts used on the North American version, and the car stumbled in a blur of recalls and quality glitches. Now Ford is letting that one wither on the vine, too.

The Ranger was the best compact pickup on the market for many years. But Ford couldn't be bothered to update it, and now the Tacoma is trouncing it on the sales charts.

Lincoln beat Cadillac in sales a few years back - and now it is headed to also-ran status in the luxury market, relying on heavily rebadged Fords for new products.

This is a company with serious problems in the product planning department.

That is not a statement of hatred, it is a - very sad - statement of fact. It gives me no joy to say that, and I'm sure the other posters feel the same way.

chuck1 · May 2006

GR,

I agree with everything you said. Very well written.

igor2 · May 2006

There seems to be quite a bit of movement about Ranger.. its production is being shifted to Dearborn and there is continued rumormill that Ford is replacing Ranger with an F100 - based on Explorer - and another truly compact truck (possibly co-built with the new Bronco - although that would make it FWD/AWD unibody.. which might be a problem).

And I agree. Ford is in a very peculiar position with the product rellease. I am optimistic about the Edge.. I think Ford hit a homerun with it.. even more so than the Outlook from GM. But ford is desperately behind on the newly key markets of C and B segments - and while there are very optimistic rumors about both segments.. they are all about 2008 and 2009 model years and that is very late.

Igor

bobw3 · May 2006

In several ways, the Explorer is a better SUV. However, it doesn't look like it - and let's face it - lots and lots of buyers are emotional, not rational buyers.....

True enough...some people buy them because they have bright new wheels

Maybe if people started comparing and buying vehicles for more practical & intelligent reasons, Ford would do better.

bobw3 · May 2006

From what I've seen, the Outlook is just a Freestyle only a little taller & wider, so I guess GM is following the Ford lead on making a 3 row CUV capable of adult seating in all rows.

carguy58 · May 2006

"They need to get the T-Bird and original Taurus guy back, and put him to work again. The Passat wins no customers from the exterior design."

The original T-Bird and Tarus guy is probably real old now. No, Ford needs to get in touch with younger people not go back on what they did in the past in terms of exterior design. As far the Passat is concerned the 02-05 model was great looking but the 06 model really doesn;t really do anything for me.

carguy58 · May 2006

"That's great for Mazda, and the 18-month suspension obviously worked."

Sure the perception of Mazda has come up alot in since the release of the 6 and 3 but their sales numbers in the Us are still not great and I don;t think where Mazda wants them to be. Mazda has not grown like Nissan has in the past few years. I mean aside from the 3 and MX-5 the 6 annd RX-8 aren't really selling though. I am a Mazda fan and also a Honda fan but Mazda still has alots of work to do to win customers from Honda and Nissan. I wonder as well getting a new desinger will effect the release of the 08 6. I think the product plan of the 08 6 was still in the pipe-line when Moray Callum(Mazda than designer)before he left for Ford.

mschmal · May 2006

Again another load of incorrect BS.

Mazda was up in profits 56% last fisical year!!!!

Nissan was up about 5% basically flat.

Mark

igor2 · May 2006

yes, but Mazda has not grown SALES numbers for about a decade.. it was covered recently over several sources.. they have kept steady some 250k units a year..

their profits are up meaning they sell cars for good prices - people want them, but there aren ot attracting new customers...

No one really knows why

Igor

mz6greyghost · May 2006

Mazda still continues to grow year after year. Granted, RX-8s can be had for $9K off MSRP, and the 6 doesn't sell as well as the CamCord, but their product as a whole is solid, reliable, and a TON more fun-to-drive than the competition.

Mazda will never be able to match the sales of Toyota or Honda, and they shouldn't. Why? Two reasons: 1. That's Ford's job, and 2. They'd have to "dumb" down the excitement of their product to appeal to a broader audience, which is a big, BIG "no-no" in my book!

AFAIC, Mazda is more of a "niche" automaker, a poor man's BMW, if you will. Not leading the sales charts, but still increasing brand awareness every year with new and exciting products (the CX-7 ans upcoming MazdaSpeed 3), bringing in new customers, and is frankly the only bright spot in Ford's product line. Why would Ford borrow the 6 platform as a base for the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr and the upcoming Edge? Hmm...

kgford · May 2006

OK maybe Hate was a little to strong of a word. Yet when others such as Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura and Nissan/Infinity share platforms it is called innovative and cost effective. Yet when Ford does it it is looked upon as cheap.

Also when a vehicle that defined a market, the F-150, and for the past thirty years has the number one selling Vehicle in the world. Is head and shoulders above the rest of the competion in terms of ride, responsiveness, quietness and capabilities is left out of the truck of the year competion and the winner is a front wheel drive unibody enlarged car(basically enlarged Accord) is a joke.
To see the real truth check out www.thetruthabouttrucks.com ,you will wonder why would anyone buy another type of pickup truck.

As far as safety the Five Hundred is safer than any other car on the road. In fact it is the only car to receive 5 stars in side impact protection without the use of side airbags. And the Freestyle leads its field in safety.

chuck1 · May 2006

"the winner is a front wheel drive unibody enlarged car(basically enlarged Accord) is a joke.
To see the real truth check out www.thetruthabouttrucks.com ,you will wonder why would anyone buy another type of pickup truck."
Hey! no debate here--I agree!

"As far as safety the Five Hundred is safer than any other car on the road. In fact it is the only car to receive 5 stars in side impact protection without the use of side airbags. And the Freestyle leads its field in safety."

We are not talking about safety (but it is important). Both of those vehicles you mentioned define their segment for boring looks...this is one of Fords BIGGEST PROBLEMS.

chuck1 · May 2006

"buying vehicles for more practical & intelligent reasons, Ford would do better."

People don't buy vehicles that are practical most of the time. How many "soccer Moms" are driving around in SUVs that could get along fine with a Honda Accord (or similar automobile?) You could have a very practical automobile (witness Pontiac Aztec). You could buy a "tent kit" for that and sleep two and go camping. This vehicle was downright ugly. Consequently it crash and burned in the marketplace.

mschmal · May 2006

Geeze it doesn't matter how few cars you sell if you are still profitable.

I think at some point Ford is going to have to decide if they need to be in the car market in the US.

Would anyone car if Ford only sold trucks SUVs etc?

If the profits were there, Wall Stree wouldn't care.

Personally, driving a car that everyone else drives is a big turn off.

I have a Mazda Protege 5. I go weeks, even months without seeing another one on the road. I feel like I have a secret that no one else knows. I love my car so I feel smarter then everyone else who doesn't even know what it is.

Cars are about emotion. People will pay more for a car that they are attached to emotionally. (Ford Mustang) People will not buy a descent car at any price that is boring and doesn't stand out. (Ford Freestar with HUGE rebates).

Mark.

john_324 · May 2006

"Cars are about emotion. People will pay more for a car that they are attached to emotionally. (Ford Mustang) People will not buy a descent car at any price that is boring and doesn't stand out. (Ford Freestar with HUGE rebates)."

I wonder if that's not the key to Ford's long-term success...have a stable of vehicles that inspire emotional attachment as their prime goal. Give up the "we'll be king of the (automotive) world again" mentality, and concentrate on producing quality autos that people seek out, even if they're aren't the Consumer Reports choice.

If you read the Edmunds.com recent econ car shootout, an interesting comment about the Ford Focus is that while there were other cars that out-scored it in the various objective measures, the editors all felt there was just something about it that made them like it more than some of the competitors...it just "felt" good.

Ford's pretty good at this in other markets actually...if it could replicate it here, I think it would help Ford in the long run...in the short run for example, it's going to be hard to abandon the family sedan market to the Asian firms. But I wonder if that's not what it will take to get the firm to concentrate on making cars people want, rather than cars people will tolerate. :confuse:

bobw3 · May 2006

Exactly...that's why I started my sentence you quoted with a big "If" in the front

mirth · May 2006

Just an update - I went to AutoSite's site now that the April figures are in and the RAV4 did surpass the Explorer in April by 82 units, although for year total the Explorer is still on top. Still, not a good trend for Ford. Here are the top five

Model April YTD
Ford Escape/Hybrid 16,011 58,279
Toyota RAV4 13,854 47,798
Ford Explorer 13,772 60,488
Honda CR-V 13,505 45,856

And the link:
http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp

nvbanker · May 2006

VERY well stated, grbeck. (as usual) Ford has repeatedly changed the world with new product, yet - they have no staying power. Wonder if they'll ever keep the Fusion up?
The Taurus brand should have never died. It should have been nurtured, improved, redesigned, re-engineered continually and it would be a ready competitor to the Camry today. The name had ENORMOUS brand equity at one time. Now, it's a joke. A sad parody of its past.
You are so very right, grbeck. I like lots of Ford cars, and have owned many. Still do - but they to amaze me with their wierd product planning. :sick:

chuck1 · May 2006

Interesting--
Explorer sales are down 43% from last year YTD......
AND
Tahoe sales are up 26% from last year YTD.

One is a mid size and sales are down.
One is a full size and sales are up.

And I just filled up my gas tank in Southern California today at $3.39/gal
GO FIGURE!!

mschmal · May 2006

I don't get this argument.

The Rav 4 is a brand new design is still buried by the Escape..

Who cares if the Rav sells more than the Explorer. They are in different size classes.

The new GMs are definately doing well but is this a trend or just pent up demand from peeps who were waiting for the new model to debute?

Mark.

grbeck · May 2006

kgford: Yet when others such as Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura and Nissan/Infinity share platforms it is called innovative and cost effective. Yet when Ford does it it is looked upon as cheap.

There is a difference between platform sharing and badge engineering.

The former, as done by Toyota, Honda and Nissan, IS a cost-effective way to expand the model lineup. And those manufacturers make the effort to distinguish the different models (different drivetrains, suspension tuning, etc.) that share a platform.

I seriously doubt that many people will cross-shop a Honda Accord with an Acura TSX, as there are considerable differences in the way those vehicles look and drive.

Badge engineering, over the long run, dilutes brand identity. The Lincoln Zephyr shares too much with the Ford Fusion to really warrant a Lincoln badge. Plus, the 3.0 V-6 may be competitive (although hardly class leading) in the Fusion's price class, but it is outgunned in the entry-level luxury segment.

I'm not saying that the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr platform is a bad one. It makes an excellent Ford. It has not been modified enough, however, to make an excellent Lincoln. Plus, I think that the Fusion is better looking than the Zephyr.

kgford: Also when a vehicle that defined a market, the F-150, and for the past thirty years has the number one selling Vehicle in the world. Is head and shoulders above the rest of the competion in terms of ride, responsiveness, quietness and capabilities is left out of the truck of the year competion and the winner is a front wheel drive unibody enlarged car(basically enlarged Accord) is a joke.

Only new or substantially redesigned vehicles are eligible for the Motor Trend award. The F-150 has not been changed since it debuted in 2004, so it wasn't considered this year. If I recall correctly, it did win the award in 2004, didn't it?

grbeck · May 2006

Thank you, nvbanker. I look at this company and swear that it just doesn't want to win. In some ways, it's worse than GM...which is truly frightening.

We have a 2005 Ford Focus sedan. So far (24,000 miles) it has been a very good car - trouble-free, comfortable, with excellent handling and a decent drivetrain.

But will Ford do enough to keep this car up-to-date? Or will it fill the slot occupied by the late, unlamented Chevy Cavalier - a car so cheap and outdated that it only sells to rental fleets or people who can't afford anything better?

Does this company want to win...?

mschmal · May 2006

More inaine BS.

First, the Honda Accord in the US and the Acura TSX have nothing to do with each other. The TSX is based on the European Accord.

Park a last generation Acura TL next to and Accord and only Ray Charles could say the cars don't look badge engineered.

Park a Camry next to an ES350. OH those cars aren't the same.

The Zephyr's SIX is outgunned? YOU CAN'T EVEN GET a 6 in a TSX!

How about an A6 next to a Passat?

WHATEVER.

Mark.

cowbell · May 2006

You know, until you mentioned it, I honestly hadn't noticed how incredibly similar the Camry was to the ES350. I usually see it more in Honda/Acura, but the Camry/ES350 look like the exact same car, minus some slight change in the headlights and mirrors.">

And just for comparison, here are the Fusion and Zephyr in similar poses. Just as with the Lexus/Toyota, the only difference that really jumps out at you are the headlights. All in all, I'd actually say the Zephyr looks less like the Fusion than the ES350 looks like the Camry. That's just my opinion though.

mz6greyghost · May 2006

The former, as done by Toyota, Honda and Nissan, IS a cost-effective way to expand the model lineup. And those manufacturers make the effort to distinguish the different models (different drivetrains, suspension tuning, etc.) that share a platform.

It may help to save $$$, but building a 2-seat sports car (the Z) based on the same platform as sedans and SUV's is just plain dumb. That's why the Z is such a heavy car, and doesn't feel nearly as balanced or confidence-inspiring as the RX-8 does on a twisty road or track.

Toyota's not immune to this either, considering the Camry and Lexus ES aren't very different at all, despite what their ad agency says. Not much if a difference between the RX and Highlander, or the LX and Land Cruiser either. Well, besides the HUGE mark-up for the name Lexus.

I seriously doubt that many people will cross-shop a Honda Accord with an Acura TSX, as there are considerable differences in the way those vehicles look and drive.

No, not really. They are different dynamically, but are quite similar in price and size. I looked at both when shopping for my Mazda 6.

IMO, Ford has done a great job differentiating the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr, and the 6 it was based on. But there's only so much an automaker can do with platform sharing.

imidazol97 · May 2006

Great comparison pictures. Identical.
How about an Avalon in the same quarter aspect pose?

bobw3 · May 2006

I'm not sure what the big deal is that these cars are similar on the outside when they're designed from the same platform? The idea behind having Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Ford/Lincoln, etc...is to be able to use the same basic platform for their luxury division. Nothing new here. The main differences won't be on the outside, but on interior luxury features, extra options, etc.

mariner7 · May 2006

It may help to save $$$, but building a 2-seat sports car (the Z) based on the same platform as sedans and SUV's is just plain dumb. That's why the Z is such a heavy car, and doesn't feel nearly as balanced or confidence-inspiring as the RX-8 does on a twisty road or track.

350Z has a 3.5L V6, R8 a 1.5L Wankel. That's why Z is so much heavier. I don't believe it's any heavier than the other big V6 2 seaters in the market (SLK350, Z4 3.0).

Lexus and Toyota are successful at platform sharing because people are willing to pay extra for the Lexus name and additional luxury items found in the car. Lincoln and Ford would be successful at the same game, if people are willing to pay extra for the Zephyr name. Only time will tell.

Acura and Honda, when they share platforms, stretch the platforms, give them different engines and driving dynamics. Just take a look at the 0-60 times for TL and Accord V6. It's probably more comparable to Mazda 6 and Fusion. Their platforms are so altered that people think of them as different cars.

There's an example of a spectacular platform sharing failure: Maxima and I35. They were identical cars, and people weren't willing to pay extra for the Infiniti name.

nvbanker · May 2006

Great question: Phil Caldwell wanted to win, and Donald Petersen wanted to win, in the 80's, and the company put out world changing cars, and was poised to be the World Car Company with only Toyota as a viable competitor for this title. Nasser started buying auto parts chains and every dead on it's butt brand in Britain, and fired all the old car guys, or retired them. That's what Bill is left with. I'm not sure that Greenie Bill has the long term vision to lead the company back to greatness. It could be done, and frankly, I think Ford is in a much better position to do it than GM is. He has enough cash personally to buy the company back if he wants to, and banks still love Ford, and the Fords. Plus, they don't have the cumbersome brand duplication and dealer structure.

I just don't know if Bill can hire enough "car guys" to get it done soon enough - plus, I'm not sure our dominance in the North American market has long to live anyway. He maybe should focus on Europe, when they are still #1.

derrado1 · May 2006

I understand the appeal of the ES350 (not everyone wants a sporty car, some just want a quiet cruiser), but I don't understand how it sells so many units. It only seems to be sold in the North American market (no to Europe, no longer to Australia). Considering its so closely related to the Camry, too. Me, in my opinion it looks bloated and soggy, just like the previous gen ES and Camry. The new Camry, though, is a HUGE improvement over the last generation. It's actually :surprise: interesting!

One thing I've always hated is how the LX470 so closely resembles the Landcruiser, more so than any other clone/platform-sharer. Name one pair of twins, and the LX470/Landcruiser are still more alike than them.

I saw an LX470 in a car park today. From behind, it looked exactly like the LC. Not even the taillights were different. And to think (over here, at least), the LX costs about $10-20k more than the top of the range Landcruiser. And to add insult to injury, Landcruisers are ridiculously common over here - pretty much part of the landscape.

Don't get me wrong, the Landcruiser is a wonderful car.... but the LX is a shameless exercise in badge engineering. :sick: Let's hope the next-gen is more unique.

grbeck · May 2006

mschmal: First, the Honda Accord in the US and the Acura TSX have nothing to do with each other. The TSX is based on the European Accord.

They share a global platform modified for their respective markets. When the Integra went away, Honda then decided to give Acura an entry-level sedan by bringing over the European Accord.

That sounds like platform sharing to me. It's obviously well done, because you haven't noticed how the cars are related.

This is a good example of covering two market segments with distinctive vehicles sharing a platform. Those two models also enhance their respective marques' image in the market place.

mschmal: Park a last generation Acura TL next to and Accord and only Ray Charles could say the cars don't look badge engineered.

These cars are not an example of badge engineering. If you believe that, then you obviously don't have a clue as to what the term really means.

Hint - it isn't what Honda is doing, and has done, with the TL and Accord.

It's apparent to everyone - well, everyone except the late Ray Charles and you - that these are two distinctive cars aimed at entirely different customers.

msmchal: The Zephyr's SIX is outgunned? YOU CAN'T EVEN GET a 6 in a TSX!

The Zephyrs I've seen are stickering for $32,000+, which puts them dangerously close to Acura TL territory.

And even if the Acura TSX does use a four, that four is still a superior engine than the Zephyr's 3.0 V-6.

Sorry, but the "We're giving you a six for the price of a four" pitch won't work any better for the Lincoln Zephyr than it does for the Chevy Malibu, especially if the competition's four is viewed as a superior engine to the six.

bigo08 · May 2006

And even if the Acura TSX does use a four, that four is still a superior engine than the Zephyr's 3.0 V-6.

Superior?? :confuse: How can that be with less HP and Torque? When the MKZ hits show rooms there will no question that the MKZ is a better car than the TSX, it will have 58 more HP than the TSX and optional AWD something the TSX does not offer.

The Zephyrs I've seen are stickering for $32,000+, which puts them dangerously close to Acura TL territory.

The MKZ will be more of a Acura TL competitor, with a more powerful V6 and AWD.

grbeck · May 2006

bigo08: Superior?? How can that be with less HP and Torque?

There is more to life than horsepower and torque - refinement and flexibility for starters. Not to mention the availability of a superb manual transmission for the real driving enthusiasts. The TSX offers a manual transmission; the MKZ doesn't.

bigo08: When the MKZ hits show rooms there will no question that the MKZ is a better car than the TSX, it will have 58 more HP than the TSX and optional AWD something the TSX does not offer.

The MKZ has already hit the showrooms - it's just called the Zephyr.

For most of the public, the name change will be irrelevant.

The MKZ will also be even more expensive when compared to the TSX, so it will be even LESS of a competitor. Unless Ford is going to be keeping prices the same for the better engine and AWD. Given the firm's financial condition, I doubt it.

bigo08: The MKZ will be more of a Acura TL competitor, with a more powerful V6 and AWD.

The Zephyr hasn't made many inroads with the TL from what I can see. Considering that the MKZ will look exactly like the Zephyr to about 99.9 percent of the general population, I doubt that they will give it a second look, even with the improved mechanicals.

In today's brutally competitive market, a car company only gets one chance to make a first impression.

Ford should have had the improved engine and AWD ready from day one. Then the Zephyr would have received better reviews and made more of an impression. The kindest review I've read - by the testers at Autoweek - basically said, "Nice car, but overpriced for what it offers."

nvbanker · May 2006

I think you're both missing the point. The fact that the Lincoln now arguably competes with the Acura, not the Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus makes me wanna barf. I'm not much interested in be competition for Buicks and Acuras - I have long considered them to be "not enough" cars..... :sick:

mschmal · May 2006

Now I do concide that the current Acura TL is distinctive. But I was talking about the last one.

bobw3 · May 2006

The real issue is just the perception that asian cars are better than US cars, and that perception will take a generation to change....regardless of the reality that is discussed in these forums.

nvbanker · May 2006

It took me a long time to admit it - but in many ways, the perception is reality. For a long time, I didn't have much interest in the imports, they were IMO, clunky imitations of our Domestics. Ex; The Toyota Cressida reminded me so much of the Ford Fairmont from the sloppy handling, the rattletrap interior to the somewhat rough straight six engine - the only real differences were: The Cressida would run about twice as long with fewer repairs, and the Fairmont's doors actually shut much better, were tighter, but easier to close.

Somewhere in that decade, that changed, and Asian cars got the rest of it down. Today, the only thing I think most of the Asian cars still lack, such as mine, is the driving experience. The fun. My Lexus is arguably the finest car I've ever owned, but it's about as much fun as a Monte Carlo......

I'd rather have a Lincoln, but the LS is the only real sport sedan they have, and it's too small for my needs.

mariner7 · May 2006

GM probably invented BE. When they were undisputably no 1, they used to sell basically the same car Chevy to working folks, Buick/Olds to doctors, and Cadillac for the very wealthy. Ford and Chrysler followed suit. Lincoln got the reputation of a Ford with chrome.

But a necessary requirement for successful PF and/or BE is the basic car must have success and identity of its own. There's no question Camry has that. It's the best selling car, putting more distance from Accord. It has high resale value. Its name has one of the best brand values in the business.

You can't say that about Fusion. It's a brand new car with a brand new name (Camry must be in the market for 25 years now). It has not had a chance to establish identity with the public. Ford doesn't just throw one name at you, but three. Plus, last year, Ford just introduced 500. The struggles for identity get even tougher.

The transaction price for a Fusion is about 2K below Accord, which is about to have a complete model changeover. So you have to wonder if a near copy costing thousands more will sell very well.

GM and Ford got into the game of PF/BE first. But they're not successful at it now, mainly because their basic cars are not that successful. Only makes sense, if Camry goes begging for buyers, having to sell with heavy incentives, there wouldn't be many buyers for much more expensive ES either.

igor2 · May 2006

this is a ridiculous comparison you are comparing a FOB SUV to a UNIBODY CUV... excape is Rav4's competition....

Explorer's competition is 4runner, Trail Blazer and Cherokee and all of them are falling as fast as explorer.

Full size SUV's are different.. the Tahoe is doing well, but you need to keep in mind, as GMT900 are coming in the GMT800 has 6-7k on the hood and reports say GM has sold measly 12k GMT900 tahoes since january. Squoia is down 33% along wih expedition..

Overall - the market is shifing.. for people that had been buying SV's jsut for image CUV's fill the need.. there will always be demand for big SUV's because some people need them, but others will buy something else

However.. at least ford has the cars to hold it up.. 18% increase all thanks to CD3's and Ford is still gaining momentum on those.

Finally, as posted before.. the tick of sales right after release means nothing unless the sales are sustained.. look at 500 and freestyle... thir sals have gone down... the example of good product are the CD3 wit every month their sales are gradually growing.. they will stabilize eventually, but it means people are buying them.. even 7-8 months after release.

Igor

chuck1 · May 2006

"Explorer's competition is 4runner, Trail Blazer and Cherokee and all of them are falling as fast as explorer."

The Blazer in APRIL was only down 15%. The full-size SUVs from GM continue to sell.

Nope, this is a FORD PROBLEM. And it will continue as long as the same designers are there who worked on the 500 and "new" Explorer are around.

This goes back to the 70's. That's when all the domestic car makers were making cars nobody wants to buy.

Toyota is going to sell TRAINLOADS of the new Camry. They did it again!! Why can't the BIG THREE DO IT?

I came out of a Explorer and in to a 4Runner. Yes, one can bash the 4Runner for ride quality, etc. But I can tell you the refinement of the 4Runner to the Explorer, and I get no-joy in saying this - there is no comparison. I suspect the same is true across their model line.

bobw3 · May 2006

at 500 and freestyle... thir sals have gone down...

From the linked article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060502/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_sales_1
"car-based crossover utilities saw an 8 percent rise in sales."

Other than the Freestyle, I'm not sure what other car-based crossover utilities sold by Ford, so this is good for the Freestyle.

Article from Ford about April Sales.

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=23245

Notice:"Combined sales for Ford's CUVs (Ford Escape and Freestyle and Mercury Mariner) registered a sales increase of 8 percent in April"

Also notice that the Freestyle is the only Ford vehicle, besides trucks, to show an increase in sales for the year as compared to last year at this time!

What about the future of Ford Inc??

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