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  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    User experiences may vary, I'm just telling my own personal one. Perhaps it's clouded my judgement somewhat, but it is the reality I've had.

    Whoa, ok that's a price I've never seen since you have to add in the air conditioning package and whatnot to get anywhere. That's far lower than any price I've compared, which usually puts the Elantra around 13.5k-14k + TTL.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That price includes the PEP ($1750 I think) with A/C and several other options. It's the current Internet price for the GLS with PEP at Towne Hyundai.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "I find JD Power to be quite useless, especially their "initial quality survey" That is based off of the first 90 days of ownership, and does not denote reliability at all. I have found that the best in a judge of quality and reliability is CR, although they are not perfect, they do tend to be more accurate then most."

    CR for maybe lawnmowers, blenders, and deck stains but when it comes to cars I go elsewhere because Consumer Reports is a flawed source. Do you buy CD players at hardware stores? The best car information comes from auto magazines not some company where you pay to fill out their surveys. Are you aware that their information comes only from those who subscribe to their rag. Who are these people that are responding and why are they not responding? What is their demographics? You just don't get a legitimate survey from such a specific crowd of those who subscribe only.

    CR's reputation has been getting pretty bad the last few years especially after last years controversal child safety seat apology in which 8 of 11 child seats were incorrectly given bad rating after they admitted the company they outsourced it to screwed up. What an blunder that was. Then there is this automatic approval for Toyota's even though the model didn't go through the normal paces that other cars do. Case in point that Toyota Tundra that they recommended and then had to pull that recommendation after the recalls started coming in.

    Do you really trust a company that uses little colored dots to indicate how good a car is? Was it fair for a highly reliable Chevrolet Astro van to get a bad rating based solely on a seatbelt buzzer that was .02 seconds delayed in going off with the key in the ignition. It just doesn't add up and like Toyota, perceptions are starting to change.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There's an entire discussion in Town Hall devoted to CR and JD Power and their merits and demerits, isn't there?
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "So, [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat, I stand by my earlier statement that effectively said that the Astra is completely outclassed by many of the cars in this segment. Me, I'll happily suck the doors off an Astra with a new Rabbit, and get pretty darn mileage while doing it."

    Like it or not it is one of the tops in the class and that is what most magazines are saying. Did you read the recent compact shootout in Car & Driver? I believe it came in third out of 7 cars with the new focus in last, and thats not that bad of a car. The Saturn has so much good going for it regardless if its the class leader in power. A good driver doesn't need a 6-7 second 0-60 car to pass or merge on to an expressway.

    My 1988 Pontiac Lemans (Daewoo) only had 74 hp and that was more than enough to beat most drivers out of the toll both and merge onto freeways even though it was a lighter car. The Saturn has more than enough oomph for the average driver.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Okay, I get it, you drive like a grandma. Do you sit low and look through the steering wheel too? :blush:
  • bprendersonbprenderson Member Posts: 99
    Listen mumble-nuts, I'm a grandma and when I was a teen, visiting relatives in Amery, WI, I would drive stock cars at their local race track next to Richardson's pavilion. :shades:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Ahhh, but how do you drive now? :P
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    do you all signal your intention to change lanes...at all times? It looks like this basic tenet of driving is going the way of Dennis Rodman in the NBA. I'd throw Babba--WaaWaaa in there, too, but that dolt won't retire. :sick:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    I always signal when I change lanes even when im the only one on the road. It is an excellent force of habit and a safe one. How many accidents could be avoided if people realized they had turn signals or at least used them. I once asked someone why they didn't signal and he said he didn't want to have to replace his turn switch.. Face it people are lazy and/or preoccupied with cell phones and food and drink.

    Its interesting I have noticed that it seems only about 1/4 of drivers use turn signals. Not only is it not safe but its inconsiderate in that based on their upcoming turn you can make a decision what to do or to prepare to come to a safe stop. The law is 200 feet before a turn. I am surprised its not enforced more often by the police because there is revenue to be made. The police in my area concentrate on speeders, seat belts, and occasionally red light runners which is also a growing epidemic. I bet one of these years they will go the turn signal route as well.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    yeah, if the police started busting people for not signaling I'd be so happy I'd bust out a Jack and Coke and put on some Drive-By Truckers and celebrate. Americans are a gripey, lazy-butt people that could stand a lot more discipline in their lives. I mean, how much trouble is it really to just turn your turn signal stalk?

    Don't you just love it when they do the slow drift thing right in front of you (without signaling, of course :mad: ) and then they slow down, ever so slightly? Yikes, it's a wonder people are able to earn a living in this country, looking at how they drive. Are they holding guns to employers' heads? ;)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It is an excellent force of habit and a safe one. How many accidents could be avoided if people realized they had turn signals or at least used them. I once asked someone why they didn't signal and he said he didn't want to have to replace his turn switch..

    I am hoping that market saturation of lane departure warning systems (buzzers and alarms and dancing babies) that go off when you go out of your lane will provide some incentive for people to signal more on the highway, if only to avoid the annoyance of the buzzer/warning.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I took the Astra XR 5-door for a spin today, posted my comments here:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef16b02/200
  • dallardallar Member Posts: 15
    backy -- nice job on the Astra review....more thorough and informative than anything I've read to date in the car mags. Much appreciated!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I took my wife and daughter to a couple of dealers just after closing today to see what they thought of some cars at the top of my "consider" list for this fall. Now that the 2009 Fit has dropped off the list (due to VSC only being available on the top-end Sport + Nav trim), three cars at the top of my list are the Elantra SE, Optima LX, and Sonata GLS. (Elantra Touring is at the top, but of course it's not at dealers yet.) My daughter (now 12) will get my next car in about 5 years, so I would like it to be something she can live with (style and color-wise). Of course, it needs to meet my criteria first since I'm the one buying it and driving it for the first 5 years.

    First I showed them the Elantra. They only had GLSes but in a good range of colors. Fortunately they had my favorite for the Elantra, carbon grey. (I also know my daughter likes darker colors like grey.) I asked her what she thought of it and she cooed over it--I think she likes its rounded lines, and she liked the color. There was a red one next to it; I like red but she doesn't. OK. There was also blue and silver, but she said she liked the grey best. (Great, since I do too.) Next we looked at the Sonata. They had my favorite color, medium silver blue, and I asked my daughter what she thought of it. She like it very much (had the grey interior, which I prefer.) I asked her if she liked it better than the other colors, including willow grey, and she said she did. (Two for two!)

    She asked about the Accent. She likes the looks of it. I told her I like it too, but that I won't buy one because it doesn't have very good crash protection, which is important. "But it gets 39 mpg!" she said. Sorry.

    Next we went to the Kia dealer, and looked at Optimas. Again I was lucky and they had a grey EX, which is not the trim I want but outside looks a lot like the LX with Appearance package. I asked my daughter what she thought, and she liked it, and again grey was her fave color. (Yesss!) She also liked how the name was very close to that of the Altima. (For some reason she likes the previous-generation Altima.)

    The Kia dealer also sells Mitsubishis, so my daughter asked "What about an Eclipse?!" I just laughed. Then she asked (tongue-in-cheek I think) if we were going to go over to the BMW dealer. Another good laugh.

    So I asked what she thought overall, and she said she liked the Elantra most, then the Altoptima :) , then the Sonata. Which is the same order I'd put them in, although the choice between the Optima and Sonata would ultimately be based on price since they are pretty even in my book.

    My daughter is an exceptionally bright and discerning child. :D
  • no_oneno_one Member Posts: 29
    I'm curious as to why the Accent was ruled out? Crash protection in small cars has come a long way. The Accent got four or five stars in every government crash test except for the rear passenger side impact (where it still got three) and it is equipped with front and side-curtain airbags. Is it anything particular about it you felt was unsafe, or just the fact it was a small car?

    Haaaaaaaa, Eclipse. I looked at that one. It was quite entertaining in that the engine really roars with a powerful sound, but then you look at the speedometer and see that you're barely doing thirty. There are many reasons you should have laughed when she asked about that one. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Accent is ruled out because it got only Acceptable on the IIHS frontal crash test, whereas almost every other car designed in recent years has scored Good, and more importantly it got a Poor on the IIHS side crash test. Since several other small cars (and some low-priced mid-sized cars) offer much better crash protection than that, I don't have any reason to settle for the Accent. As I stated, my next car will be handed down to my daughter, and I want it to be as safe a car as possible within my budget, for both active and passive safety. Which is why I'm also looking for a car with ESC.
  • aladdinsanealaddinsane Member Posts: 182
    backy:

    Do you think there's a good chance Hyundai and Kia will offer ESC on their 2009 Accent and Rio machines?

    I know ESC will become mandatory with all automobiles starting in 2012, I believe.
    Still it would be nice if Hyundai/Kia didn't wait till the last moment to make ESC either standard or optional BEFORE '12, know what I'm sayin'?

    Awaiting your knowledgeable reply...

    Peace!<-AladdinSane- :shades: -
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I would like to think so. After all, Hyundai was the earlier player adopting to the ESC feature among the mainstream brands.
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    Personally I dislike the accent for a lot of reasons. But safety is a huge reason. Small cars ARE safer than the past, but they're still not good in accidents with very large vehicles for deaths per vehicle(See those terrible 5000 lb suvs). Also the accent has EXTREMELY poor crash test ratings from IIHS, I would not trust it for anyone right now. It's Acceptable, POOR, POOR in testing. Most cars at least get a good on the frontal crash test, accent does not. Elantras are far far better than accents in basically every possible category. And the fuel economy isn't even better. Accent auto - 24/33, Elantra auto - 25/33. WTF! :)

    If you want a smaller car than Elantra, go look at a Fit or Versa. At least they have good/good front and side crash ratings. Not that anyone mentioned, but the Aveo is almost as bad as accent. Not good company for safety :) Please get your loved ones a car with a good/good front/side iihs rating please!
  • no_oneno_one Member Posts: 29
    Personally I dislike the accent for a lot of reasons. But safety is a huge reason. Small cars ARE safer than the past, but they're still not good in accidents with very large vehicles for deaths per vehicle(See those terrible 5000 lb suvs). Also the accent has EXTREMELY poor crash test ratings from IIHS, I would not trust it for anyone right now. It's Acceptable, POOR, POOR in testing. Most cars at least get a good on the frontal crash test, accent does not. Elantras are far far better than accents in basically every possible category. And the fuel economy isn't even better. Accent auto - 24/33, Elantra auto - 25/33. WTF!

    Huh, the NHTSA test weren't nearly as bad, but... yeah... that's pretty terrible IIHS crash test results. And the fuel economy difference is a bit surprising, although Hyundai/Kia isn't the only one where the compact gets better mileage than the compact, since the Chevy Aveo manual is only 24/34 but the Chevy Cobalt XFE manual is 25/36. I guess that doesn't say much for Korean subcompacts.....

    I was looking at the IIHS crash test ratings, apparently the fit got a poor score for rear-end collisions, Versa still had a passing score, but both had good scores for front and side impact, as you said, and both are good alternatives to the Korean subcompacts...
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    The new 2009 Fit is coming at least, which should hopefully have a better headrest than the current one. Anyways I certainly think Korean compacts have merit(Elantra and Spectra), but avoid the subcompacts until they are actually on par with the japanese models.

    Subaru seems to be really cleaning up on safety though, all their models have great ratings everywhere and of course they have their little awd advantage. Impreza's still the only compact with a top pick currently...although I think Civic is just as good(just not enough ECS availability yet)

    I'd have taken a more serious look at the impreza if I liked the looks more and if the other features/prices were a bit more comparable. It's certainly great for going into bad weather and being well protected.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'd like to think so too but I doubt it. I don't expect ESC on the Accent and Rio until the next redesign. Consider that they used to offer ABS standard on the Accent sedan, then dropped it as a standard feature. So they'll now add ESC (requiring ABS) to the Accent? I really doubt it. More likely that they'll put ESC standard on the Elantra GLS--at least I'd really like to see that.
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    Do y'all think the '09 Elantra will have this? My oldest has her heart set on the Elantra GLS and would like her to have the best safety equipment if possible. Hopefully, when the '09 model comes out this fall, it'll have it. Luckily our buying time frame is thanksgiving week and possibly into the last week of December.
    I'm hearing that the '09 Civic will also get this feature which will be nice. Miss it on my '06 model, but it's a great car even without it.

    The Sandman :)
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    Why not just get the elantra with an upgraded package if safety is that important? I don't see the issue unless you're too cheap :) I only cheap out when it's nice to have, but not required items.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Don't expect ESC to be standard on the Civic either. In fact, we don't even know yet if it will be available on all Civic trims. Look what Honda did with the 2009 Fit--made VSC available as an option only on the top-of-the-line Sport model with nav. :cry:

    Anyway, we'll know well before December whether the Elantra GLS is available with ESC for 2009. But at the least, your oldest could choose the SE or Touring, which we know have ESC standard--and certainly don't cost any more than a Civic, and probably much less (comparably equipped).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Won't be too long now (2011?) all new cars sold in the US will have ESC, as mandated by the Feds. I would think some car company, Honda or maybe Hyundai, would step up and want to be first to offer ESC across its lineup. Both companies will be very, very close to that for 2009. Honda is closest, in that it will offer ESC on at least one trim level on every vehicle it sells here. Hyundai probably won't have ESC on the Accent in 2009 so it will lag a bit behind Honda in the ESC race. Toyota is getting pretty close too, except it makes ESC optional on almost all of its cars, and n/a on the Yaris.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    VW has ESC standard across the board for 2009MY, IIRC.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, there ya go! Good for VW! I fogot the Rabbit gets ESC standard for 2009. So if they can do it on a $15k car, so can Honda and Hyundai and all the rest.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I wouldn't be surprised to see it on the MMC of the Civic in 2009.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    We know VSC will be available on the 2009 Civic. We just don't know in what form--standard, optional, and on what trim levels? Will Honda do a Fit-like move and make it available only on the EX with nav, as an option? We just don't know yet.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'd hope it'll be standard across the board, but honestly wouldn't be surprised if Honda cheaped out and put it on EX and EX-L models only.

    They did the same thing with ABS awhile back. It was EX-only.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Right, for many years (starting in 1992 MY I think), ABS was available (although standard) on the EX. That changed only for 2006 MY.
  • aladdinsanealaddinsane Member Posts: 182
    Will the suits at Toyota wake up and offer ESC as an option with the 2009 Yaris, at least with the "S" models of both the sedan and LiftBack? Anyone have a clue?

    Peace!<-AladdinSane-<- :shades: -
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Even the Accords only had it standard on the EX models until the 2003 model debuted, making it standard across the line. It was optional on LX models in the '90s, but was a difficult to find option.
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    Luckily, we've been blessed and $ is not a problem when it comes to new cars for the kids. The problem might be the availability of the SE model when our time frame rolls around. Also the crazy petrol prices have made econoboxes fly out of the dealers, at least here in South Florida. Showed her the Kia Spectra tonight online as a possible alternative choice. The idea of her taking my beloved Civic has also become a possibility with the other girl taking the wife's Mazda 3s. This way we could both get the new cars.
    Decisions, decisions!

    The Sandman :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Please, check out the crash test scores on the Spectra before giving it serious consideration for your daughter. Since you say $ is no problem, I don't know why you'd turn to the Spectra, given the crash-test scores, ABS is available only as an option on the top-trim model, and ESC isn't available at all.

    Have you considered the Optima? Good crash scores and safety equipment, and with discounts and rebates the price would be pretty close to that of an Elantra SE (i.e. Optima LX with ABS/ESC and Appearance pkgs). Also a bit larger and more comfy car, with a more powerful I4 with a 5AT, and FE is not that much less than the Elantra.
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    Did show her the Optima also...my bad, and she liked it. I did point out the 5 speed tranny as a fuel saving feature. Like the looks of the Spectra as compared to the Elantra...just can't stand the Elantra look. But time will tell about what we'll actually do. They will have a safe, reliable car to drive no matter what. Then in a couple of years, it'll be the boys turn. Thank G-d the wife, a CPA, made good investments for them when they were young.

    The Sandman :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I honestly don't put much stock in these surveys, put I thought I'd pass on the winner and runners-up in the compact category.

    Winner: Honda Civic
    Runners-Up: Toyota Prius, Hyundai Elantra
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Nothing compact about the Prius/Elantra ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In length they are compacts, very close to compacts like the Civic. But in the mid-sized class in interior room. Best of both worlds, IMO. :)

    Then there's the Versa, generally considered a subcompact, with mid-sized interior room. And the Civic, a compact, with less interior room than the Accent and Rio, which are considered subcompacts. :confuse: :confuse:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You may have noticed (actually, I don't know how you can avoid noticing) the ads at Edmunds.com re the Cobalt XFE coupe--25 mpg city, 36 mpg highway EPA with 5-speed stick. Chevy is pushing for those buyers looking for high FE. Smart play--although few buyers go for a stick these days. Will be interesting to see if it helps Cobalt sales any--or if there will be few of these low-priced coupes available, and it's a ploy to get buyers into dealers to buy a more loaded Cobalt, or even a Malibu.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Interesting. I'm being considered for a contract that, if offered to me, will have me driving over 900 miles per week for the next year, and that's before any miscellaneous driving. Ouch. Assuming I take it, and assuming that I'm unable to work out a "Work from home deal", I'll be putting somewhere between 45,000 and 52,000 miles on a car in just one year.

    Maybe the Cobalt XFE is just the ticket (I've never heard of it before, so I'll need to check it out).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Wow! So highway FE will be very important (asuming you are paying for your own gas for this gig), but if it were me the first thing I'd look for is a comfy driving position and a smooth, quiet, comfy highway ride. And cruise control of course!
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Agreed on all of your points. I've recently driven two Cobalts (fairly tarted up versions that were rentals), a Civic, a Mazda 3 and a Rabbit, and while the Rabbit is significantly more fun to drive than any of the above (although the M3 ain't too bad), mileage will suddenly become a huge issue if I take this contract.

    Looking at it from a $4.00 per gallon basis, and with my current commute hack as the reference point against which all others are judged, I find the following annual fuel costs for these cars:
    MPG &#150; Annual $
    - 22 ---- $9,090.91 -- 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan (long since paid off)
    - 29 ---- $6,896.55 -- 2009 VW Rabbit Coupe 5-Speed (about $16,000 out the door)
    - 32 ---- $6,250.00 -- 2008 Mazda 3 5-Door 5-Speed (about $18,000 out the door)
    - 34 ---- $5.882.35 -- 2008 Honda Civic LX 5-Speed (about $17,000 out the door)
    - 36 ---- $5,555.56 -- 2008 Chevy Cobalt XFE Sedan 1LT 5-Speed (about $14,000 out the door)

    The Rabbit and the M3 5-Door have an advantage because I frequently need to schlep our 75 pound Labrador (who loves to swim and get muddy and who sheds A LOT) around and I'd rather not stick him in the back seat. That said, the Cobalt is so inexpensive and gets such good mileage that it would be cheaper to keep the 1998 DGC for dog duty than it would be to peddle the old girl and get the Rabbit or the M3. Hmmmmz. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Another option to look into would be a used '04-6 Elantra GLS (sedan, or hatch for the Lab) with 5-speed. You could get one pretty cheap, they have a very smooth, quiet highway ride, a great driver's seat with 8-way adjustment, and I got over 40 mpg on the highway when I kept it around 60 mph (upper 30s at 65-70). The only big negative on the car is lack of side curtain airbags, but driving long distances on highways that may not be a huge concern.

    A used Corolla or Yaris (hatch for the Lab!) would be another option--more pricey than an Elantra, and the driving position is not as adjustable, but high FE and a pretty nice highway ride.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I drove a couple of Elantra rental cars last year and am decidedly not impressed. I find their ride, handling and responsiveness to be rubber-bandishly numb; I mean, even our two Caravans have more road feel than the Elantras I drove. I'm quite sure I could never be happy in one of those cars.

    As for the new Corolla, I have yet to drive one, but all reports indicate that it's pretty numb and unresponsive as well. FWIW, both my mom and my mother-in-law have Corollas, and they're nowhere even near the Civic or the Cobalt in that department, and those two are handily trumped by the Mazda 3, which in turn is less responsive than the Rabbit. I mean, I gotta have some fun. ;)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, "Act your age!" Geez, I'm over 50 and still insist on driving a stick shift wherever and whenever I can. I guess some folks never grow up. :blush:

    At this point, I&#146;m thinking that it&#146;s between the Rabbit and the Cobalt, and over the course of the first 50,000 mile year, the Cobalt will cost me about $2,000 less than the Rabbit to buy and save me another $1,400 in fuel. The flip side is that if I opt for the Rabbit, I&#146;ll save roughly $1,000 by not having to insure three cars, and I might be able to get say $1,500 out of the old Caravan, $2,000 max, so the first year would be between $400 and $900 cheaper if I keep the old van and buy the Cobalt. Now I have to decide whether having a little bit of fun is worth $900.

    Hmmm, thinking as I type, if I sell whatever I buy after the contract is over, will a 1 year old Rabbit with 50,000 miles on it have a higher percentage resale value than a 1 year old Cobalt with the same mileage? Don&#146;t know the answer to that one. :confuse:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Elantra GLS (and GT) hatch has a sport-tuned suspension and steering that might be more to your liking. I've never seen those as rentals.

    But I think it's interesting you were not impressed by the Elantra yet like the Cobalt's ride and handling enough to seriously consider it.

    I've driven the Mazda3 on the freeway and I love how it handles, but I don't like the firm suspension and tire noise on bad roads--which there are too many of where I live. Civic also is too noisy for my taste for a long drive; for around town it would be fine though.

    If I were you I'd seriously consider the "buy used' play, run the car into the ground, and buy another one. Instead of $14-18K up front, it would be about half that. The car would be worth diddly after 2-3 years, but who cares?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I rented a Cobalt and an Elantra back to back during two consecutive weeks of traveling a a while back, and the Cobalt was easily the nicer of the two to drive. That said, I like a firm ride, sharp steering, and stiff tires, and the Cobalt had that in spades over the Elantra.

    As for the buy used play; I guess I'm just too picky, I don't like other people's cast offs. Call it a character flaw, but there it is. :blush:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    Almost every compact car in one forum or another has achieved 40-mpg by an owner-Cobalt, Civic, Corolla, etc. The Cobalt XFE-Xtra fuel economy from my understanding is more than just a few models and is more than just a name.

    If you want ride, comfort, and quietness then the Cobalt leads the compact class in those regards. The seats were specially designed to provide comfort on long commutes. The seat designer is well known and tested the seats to go in the Cobalt well before production started. They are firm but the comfort is good for all day driving.

    I don't see how a Hyundai got put into the top of the conversation because its not quite there for that status. There is no bad compact car so its a question of what you like and want to live for. Keep in mind if you go the Hyundai way that the powertrain warranty is non-transferrable to those outside of your family.
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