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Comments
Your comparison is laughable, by the way. Look again what standard features that are offered on the base model of the Sonata [GLS].
Nope, not sure.
"Your comparison is laughable, by the way. Look again what standard features that are offered on the base model of the Sonata [GLS]."
Care to elaborate?
MSRP is cheaper on the Sonata
Electronic Stability Control standard
Vehicle Stability Control System standard
Front seat active head restraints
Steering Wheel Mounted Controls standard
Leather Steering Wheel standard
Power Window Lockout/Override standard
Second Row Fold-Down Armrest
Driver Multi-Adjustable Power Seat optional vs. N/A on Jetta VE
Full size vs. compact
Larger, rommier, fuel efficient, longer warranty, larger wheel and more...
Anyway, a correction on your post: all trim levels of the Sonata have a height-adjustable driver's seat (power seat is part of an option package that starts at $500; standard on the Limited trim).
So I agree the Jetta VE is a very nice package for the money, for a compact-sized car (two size classes below the full-sized Sonata), but one thing to consider is what kind of discounts and rebates are available off the list price. We know that big discounts and rebates are available on Sonatas. How about the Jetta? Or would that compact-size car wind up costing a lot more than the full-sized Sonata? Then it is a question of the extra features on the Jetta vs. the room and lower price of the Sonata.
P.S. IMO the Sonata has much classier looks than the Corolla-esque Jetta, but as you say, that is a matter of opinion.
Not sure how you get that the Sonata GLS (2006 OR 2007) is cheaper MSRP than Jetta VE.
2006 Sonata GLS AUTO: $19,395
2006 Jetta VE AUTO: $18,975
2007 Sonata GLS AUTO: $18,295
2007 Jetta (dropped "VE" nomanclature): $17,565 6-speed Tiptronic
2006 Jetta VE AUTO: $18,975
2007 Sonata GLS AUTO: $18,295
2007 Jetta (dropped "VE" nomanclature): $17,565 6-speed Tiptronic
"Anyway, a correction on your post: all trim levels of the Sonata have a height-adjustable driver's seat"
According to edmunds, height adjustible seats is listed as "optional." No mention of this feature being standard on Hyundai's website. Please cite your source.
"P.S. IMO the Sonata has much classier looks than the Corolla-esque Jetta, but as you say, that is a matter of opinion."
A matter of opinion. We'll leave it at that.
We almost bought the Jetta last year...but ended up with the Mazda 3s. The Jetta VE was pretty cheap looking inside eventhough it drove nicely. The only way to get the Jetta is with the leatherette seating surfaces anyways. Thought about the Jetta last week again, and the Volvo S40, but ended up with a Civic LX and so far just love the car. Quality & ergonomics are 1st rate and the reliability is...well it's a Honda...nothing else to say on that point.
The only saving grace for us is that if we did buy the VW, the dealer is within 2 miles of the house...not enough to want it though. Can't understand why VW's reliability still sucks after all this time. Can someone answer me this question?
The Sandman :confuse:
The current Jetta Value Edition starts at 18,810 (inc. $630 destination charge).
As for pricing... can you confirm that the 2007 Jetta VE has at least the same level of equipment as the 2006 base Jetta? VW's web site still has the 2006 model info. Also, as I mentioned I think it is more realistic to compare prices people actually pay, including rebates and discounts, rather than MSRPs when talking about value. So for example, a top-trim Sonata LX with 234 hp V6, leather, manumatic transmission, and lot of other goodies can be had now for around $18k + T&L according to reports on the Sonata Prices Paid discussion.
That's great! Please cite your source.
"Also, as I mentioned I think it is more realistic to compare prices people actually pay, including rebates and discounts, rather than MSRPs when talking about value."
YOU (not me) FIRST attempted to claim the Sonata GLS AUTO's MSRP was LOWER than the JETTA VE. You were incorrect.
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/sonata/sonata.aspx
VW Jetta Vaule Edition base starts:
http://www.vw.com/jetta/index.html
I never said I was talking specifically about the Sonata GLS automatic's pricing. Please re-read my posts. I made it clear I was talking about the 2007 Sonata GLS--which is available with manual or automatic transmissions.
Now that's objective. You made a claim that Edmunds and Hyundai's information is incorrect regarding seat height adjustment being standard. Again, I ask you to please cite your source so that anyone interested in purchasing a Sonata GLS has all the accurate information.
You said: "For example, compared to a full-size Sonata GLS, the Jetta VE costs more MSRP"
Either Auto or MANUAL, the Sonata GLS (2006 or 2007) costs MORE MSRP than a JETTA VE.
2007 Sonata GLS MANUAL: $17,195
2007 JETTA MANUAL: $16,490
2007 Sonata GLS AUTO: $18,295
2007 Jetta (dropped "VE" nomanclature): $17,565 6-speed Tiptronic
And good luck finding ANY 5-speed Sonata's. A quick look at the 4 largest Hyundai Dealers in my area did not have a SINGLE Sonata 5-speed from the over 400 models available. When I bought my 2004 Elantra 5-speed, I had to wait over 3 months just to find one. AT the time I was told that while Hyundai technically made a Sonata (2004) 5-speed, it would be nearly impossible to purchase NEW.
You were incorrect on pricing. It's an honest mistake. Let's move on.
Having driven both cars, the Sonata, in my opinion, is the better car. The Sonata seats were top notch, and this is someone who has severe back issues and needs a back friendly seat. The looks are very "Accordish" which is a good thing.
The Jetta looks very similar to the wife's 3s and she actually preferred it but the VE model just didn't work for her...not enough "goodies" to justify paying over $20,000. And the "lack of reliability" was the final nail in the coffin...so to speak.
Both good cars, just depends on what one wants to pay and how much time one wants to wait in the service departments customer lounge.
Please, let's keep the conversation going...but civilly without all those pesky emotions. And by the way, love my Civic LX after almost a week!
The Sandman
And until we see long term reliability data on the 2005.5 or 2006 Jetta, I think its a bit premature to consider it unreliable based on previous models. After all, it was only in 2004 that JDpower rated Hyundai and KIA at the bottom of the barrel in terms of LONG TERM dependability (KIA BELOW VW and Hyundai about the same level). http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2004055
Even in JD power's most recent long term dependability survey (2005), Hyundai and Kia still rate far below AVERAGE. KIA is the LOWEST rated brand. http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089
Compare a Honda or Toyota to VW, and its no contest who wins in terms of reliability. But Hyundai, it's much closer.
Who cares?
You are probably comparing 2 cars with 2 completely different types of buyers. I have no source - so sue me - but I would bet you both that a person interested in a Jetta would not even consider a Sonata and vice versa. They are two completely different cars aimed at completely different audiences.
It's kinda like comparing a Mercedes CLK350 with a Toyota Camry. :shades:
A response of "My source is my EYES." is completely appropriate to back up the statement you questioned.
I agree with the last poster - those who are looking at Sonatas and those who are looking at Jettas are generally not cross-shopping the other. I'm not sure why you need to grind a vehicle under your heel, but it is entirely unnecessary and it's time for you to move on.
So if I were playing percentages on reliability in this class, based on the JD Power 2005 VDS, the order would be:
Corolla
Civic
Focus (and Fusion S?)
Cobalt (and Malibu?)
ION (discontinued after 2006)
Mazda3
Elantra (and Sonata GLS?)
Impreza
Caliber
Sentra
Lancer
Aerio (and Forenza?)
Jetta
Spectra
I can't stand the driving position of the Corolla, the Civic is a very good car but IMO overpriced, the Cobalt has insufficient room in the backseat and other major deficiencies, and the ION is going away soon (plus just isn't a very good car IMO). So that leaves the Mazda3 and Elantra at the top of my "consider" list in this class. The Jetta is a very good car also, albeit with the reliability history issue, but if I were to go that route it would be with the lower-priced and more versatile Rabbit.
Using the invoice price (since it is easy to get invoice on both vehicles if you are a smart shopper), here is what you get:
Mazda 3i Touring (5sp MAT): Base invoice price including destination = $15,535
VW Jetta VE (5sp MAT): Base invoice price including destination = $17,679
So, just to be fair to the Mazda, what does the extra $2K plus get you.. Invoice for a 3i Touring with 6 disc changer/power sunroof,all weather floor mats, rear lip spoiler, side airbags+ABS upgrade, and wheel locks still comes in at $17,100...
Now lets compare the vehicles. Although the VW has the same horsepower and more torque (150hp each, VW has 170lbs/ft torque to the 3's 135lb ft), the VW also weighs over 500lbs more. On the track, the 3i clocks 0-60 in 8.23 seconds, while the VW comes in at 9.57 seconds. 1/4 mile in the VW is 17sec vs. 16.40 in the Mazda. Remember, for the price of the VW VE edition, one could easily get a Mazda 3s for even better performance.
The Mazda also has 16" alloy wheels compared to 15" wheels on the VW with plastic wheel covers. Both vehicles have similar safety features (although the VW offers optional rear torso airbags and stability control). The 3i gets better mpg 28/35 vs the VW's 22/30 for both city and highway. The 3i offers more front and rear legroom, and more front headroom. The Mazda, overall, has more passenger volume than the Jetta VE. Warranties are nearly identical, but the Mazda 3 has a better reliability rating per JD Powers and Consumer Reports. The Mazda is built in Japan, the VW, contrary to popular belief that this is a German built sedan, is built in Mexico.
Don't know about the rest of you, but I would pick the loaded, faster, roomier Mazda 3i Touring anyday vs a VW Jetta VE, and still keep over $500 in my pocket...
Ain't life grand!!!!!
The Sandman Family
Having just purchased a Honda EX-L at the end of April, I was shocked when the best price that same dealer offered was MSRP with their "appearance package" thrown in. I called about six local Honda dealers and only two offered below MSRP (the best being $400). Several dealers never even called me back after they stated they needed to do some research to find the car I wanted (manual) even after I told them that I was ready to put money down that day..
Going back to your situation, if we needed two cars in this class I would definitely get a Honda Civic just so that I had something different to drive
I was also very impressed with the Hyundai Sonata I drove a month or so back. What a great deal. I just wanted something a little more sporty and fun to drive since our other vehicle is a minivan and I had enough money from my trade-in to pay cash for the loaded Mazda 3i Touring (w/ sunroof/6 disc changer, rear lip spoiler, side airbags, etc)..
Zoom, zoom..
"Now lets compare the vehicles. Although the VW has the same horsepower and more torque (150hp each, VW has 170lbs/ft torque to the 3's 135lb ft), the VW also weighs over 500lbs more. On the track, the 3i clocks 0-60 in 8.23 seconds, while the VW comes in at 9.57 seconds. 1/4 mile in the VW is 17sec vs. 16.40 in the Mazda"
Wrong. The Jetta is faster than even the Mazda 3s to 60 MPH.
Mazda 3s AUTO (160 HP 2.3 liter) 0-60: 9.5s; 1/4mile: 16.70
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=106881/pageNumber=14
VW Jetta AUTO: 0-60: 9.42s; 1/4mile: 17.17s
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=105254/pageNumber=4
Unfortunately, Edmunds did not test the 5-speed Jetta 2.5, but forum participants indicate that it should run 0-60 in mid 8 second range.
Given the difference in standard equipment between the Mazda 3i and Jetta VE, it's a fairer comparsion with the Mazda 3s, which will run you $18K compraitively equipped.
Again, the Mazda 3 is a great auto. Will certainly consider it when I look to get a new auto soon.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=108601/pageId=677- - - 00
That article states the 0-60 times for the 3s automatic at 8.3 seconds and quarter mile at 16.4. This is inline with other sites I have seen (Motortrend, MSN, etc).
The manual 3s gets clocked in the high 7's.. Not sure about the manual Jetta VE. Will try and pull some numbers but mid 8's sounds right. As I stated the 31 Touring clocks 8.23 with a manual..
My point in comparing the loaded 3iTouring to the Jetta VE was to show that a loaded 3i Touring could be had for less than the Jetta VE and would have more features...
EDIT: I see now. The comparison test you linked to was with the 2005 Mazda3s which had a 4 speed automatic tranny. The 06 3s has a five speed automatic which has manual shift mode.. So, the 06 Mazda 3s w/automatic should easily best the Jetta VE w/automatic.
Actualy, your quoted article says 8.6 seconds to 60 MPH.
"Actually, your quoted article says 8.6 seconds to 60 MPH."
I stand corrected. At any rate the 06 Mazda 3s will handily beat the Jetta 2.5 at the track.
Now the GLI would be another story... Although the new Mazda3speed should beat it pretty easy for probably a lot less money....
Toyota also makes a quality product and the Corolla is a very solid car at a great price.
Very happy with my 3 so far. It is mostly a commuter car, but I have found a couple of reasons to run some errands this weekend
The GLI is simply an amazing drive.
That depends on a lot of things - your personality, resources, lifestyle, location etc.
Me personally, I'd buy neither. But in general, between the 2, the 3s is a better choice unless you are VW aficionado.
But as I said, if you are after bang for the buck, there are better options available.
Shouldn't the Corolla be in this comparison thread also?
I think that rather than arguing about who's got the better car, boards like this work best when the members are trying to help someone decide what kind of car to buy and also discussing multi-car comparisons from auto magazines, etc., to bring out the intangibles that the auto mags often neglect but are a real consideration for many of us (resale value, maintenance, reliability, etc.)
(my $.02)
If a person's main concern is reliability then the Toyota Corolla is a great vehicle.
It really helps if folks point out what it is that matters to them in a car. The fact of the matter is that there are some tremendous cars out there in this price range and all have their particular strengths and weaknesses. I for one, now wish I would have test driven the Hyundai Elantra before buying. I saw a GT hatchback on the road yesterday (don't see too many of those in my area) and wished I would have test driven one before buying my Mazda 3.
In this class, I don't see a huge difference in reliability between the Corolla, Civic, Impreza, or Mazda3, and not a big step down to the Elantra. The only catch with the Civic is that it seems to have some teething pains in its first year, but that is typical for new designs.
I drove the Mazda3, 06 Civic, and 06 Corolla S. I quickly narrowed it down to the 06 Civic and the Mazda3 and then finally decided on the MAzda3. Not sure why I did not take a closer look at the Elantra GT hatchback. I recently drove a Hyundai Sonata (4cyl and 6cyl) and was extremely impressed. Next time I will make sure to check out the Elantra Hyundai is a really good value and has stepped up IMHO.
Agree with you on the Civic being new. I never buy the first year of a new model (made that mistake once and swore I would never do it again).
I think the Mazda3 and Civic are at the top of this class now. It will be interesting to see what the new Sentra and Elantra are like and what Toyota comes up with next year with the new Corolla.
It used to be you could buy a first-year Japanese car with great confidence, because they were rolled out in Japan a year or more before the U.S. Not true in most cases anymore (the Fit being a huge exception).
http://www.thenewelantra.com/
backy, "The Forums Test Drive Team" #182, 1 Jul 2006 2:12 pm
One correction (noticed it after the Edit mode expired): I meant EBD instead of EBS. Also, when I talk about optional safety features it is in relationship to the 3-door. The 5-door Rabbit has rear side airbags optional also.