Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)

jrock65 · July 2006

2007 Elantra:

Engine: 2.0L with 138 hp, 136 torque
Total Legroom: 78.5 inches
EPA passenger volume: 97.9 cubic feet
Trunk volume: 14.2 cubic feet
Curb weight (auto): 2747 lbs.
MPG (auto): 28/36

2006 Corolla:

Engine: 1.8L with 126 hp, 122 torque
Total legroom: 76.7 inches
EPA passenger volume: 90.3 cubic feet
Trunk volume: 13.5 cubic feet
Curb weight (auto): 2595 lbs.
MPG (auto): 30/38

2006 Civic:

Engine: 1.8L with 140 hp, 128 torque
Total legroom: 76.8 inches
EPA passenger volume: 90.9 cubic feet
Trunk volume: 12.0 cubic feet
Curb weight (auto): 2690 lbs.
MPG (auto): 30/40

aphaltcommando · July 2006

On top of that, Honda must think the body is made of GOLD when you look at the price that they want for it. I'm so happy with the quality and performance of my Elantra, that when I pay it off, I'm going to keep it, and get a Tucson to boot.

germancarfan1 · July 2006

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx

backy · July 2006

That's really good for the Rabbit 5-door. I'm disappointed the IIHS didn't rate the 3-door or include it in their Silver Award--that's the Rabbit I'm most interested in because of the value. It appears what happened is that the IIHS simply applied the scores for the Jetta to the Rabbit. They couldn't do that for the 3-door, at least not for side impact, because of the differences in the structure compared to the 5-door (and 4-door Jetta). I wish they would test both the 5-door and 3-door Rabbits directly. Even the 5-door has a different body structure in back compared to the Jetta, and the 3-door is much different than the Jetta in back.

luvmbooty · July 2006

I was comparing the interior and exterior numbers to the Jetta, Civic, and Mazda 3. All numbers are just about equal. Why is it considered Mid-size? Is it based on exterior length only?

luvmbooty · July 2006

I noticed Jetta isn't in helpful links and isn't listed under what discussion is about. IIHS lists the Jetta under mid sized sedans. Edmunds.com compares the Jetta with the Civic, Focus, and Mazda 3. I tried to go to Fueleconomy.gov but received a bad request.

How is a car's size determined? Is it the length of the car? I see that all the above mentioned cars are under 180 inches in length. I checked some midsize sedans and they are all 180 or over(Audi A4, Volvo S60, Subaru Legacy). If this is so the Jetta just misses midsize by .7 inches.

backy · July 2006

I think your question, which was posted in multiple discussions, was answered elsewhere, but basically different organizations determine vehicle "class" in different ways. For the EPA it's interior volume, for the IIHS it's weight. The Jetta is a mid-sized car according to the IIHS because it's pretty heavy for its size. Length is misleading. For example, the Elantra and Prius are both under 180 inches yet both are classified as mid-sized cars based on interior volume. The Sonata is about the same length as many mid-sized cars yet is classed as a large car by the EPA.

nhgirl2 · July 2006

Hi everyone,
I just graduated from college and landed my first (very low-paying) job. I'll be relocating from NH to NC and my '97 Taurus isn't going to cut it. I need a new car within the next few days, and here's what I'm down to (both cars are brand new):
-'06 Honda Accord Value Package. They'll give it to me for $17,860. I would be paying it off forever, but everyone says it's the better car.
-'06 Toyota Corolla LE. I can have this one for just under $15,000. The monthly payments would be slightly less and I'd own the car two years earlier than the Accord (the interest rate is significantly lower on this one).
Obviously, I'd love to take home the Accord, but the Corolla is also appealing to my just-out-of-college budget. My biggest hesitation on the Corolla is that it doesn't have ABS. I've never driven without ABS in bad weather (or at all, really), and my parents seem to think it's very important. I guess I just want to know which car is the better deal, though I know they're not really comparable, and whether the Accord is significantly safer than the Corolla (enough to justify the price difference?)
Thanks!

backy · July 2006

The Accord has ABS and also has side airbags and curtains standard. You didn't mention if the Corolla has those (they are optional) but if not, the side crash test scores without them are not too good. So IMO the Accord wins hands-down as the safer of the two.

Before paying out all that money for your new car, have you considered some alternatives in the $15-17k price range such as the Civic (could get a DX or LX in this range with both ABS and side bags/curtains), Rabbit 3-door (a stick with ABS and side bags/curtains lists for $15.6k, 6-speed automatic is $1000 more), Elantra GT (loaded with leather, ABS/traction, side bags, moonroof, and alloys would be under $15k with stick), Sonata GLS (can be had for around $16k with ABS/traction, stability control, and side bags/curtains--and even a 234 hp V6 if want it), Mazda3i (around $16k with alloys, ABS, and side bags/curtains), Mazda6i (stick can be had for around $16k with ABS and side bags/curtains), and Fusion ($16-17k with ABS and side bags/curtains). Have you driven any of these? These are just some of the other good choices in this price range.

dc_driver · July 2006

nhgirl2,

If you have not looked at other cars, then I agree with Backy you should really see what else 15-17K will buy you.. I own a Mazda3i and a Honda and have found my Mazda to be just as reliable and upscale as the Honda.

If you have made up your mind and it is between these two cars, I would drive them back to back, but I would personally go with the Honda. It is just a much nicer car for 2K more and Honda's really hold their value.

Good luck!

nhgirl2 · July 2006

Thank you so much for the advice, backy and dcdriver. I decided to suck it up and buy the Accord, so it's now sitting in my driveway!

backy · July 2006

Enjoy!

giantkiller · July 2006

Good choice. Choose a car with side airbag/ABS as standard. It pays for itself. You'll have lower insurance premium and when its time to trade it up, you'll get more resale value. Why? Because in the future, side airbag will be standard on all vehicle. Nobody will ever want a vehicle without side airbag.

germancarfan1 · August 2006

2006
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133

2005
http://www.jdpa.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089

KIA still the bottom feader as the 4th worst reliable brand.

joe97 · August 2006

And the point of the post being?...geesh, how does this contribute to the topic of this thread??? Relevance???

Your consistent bashing and putting down certain brands have gotten old, really old...

tenpin288 · August 2006

Maybe he needs to take a look at where his favorite brand, Volkswagen, is listed.

backy · August 2006

That is true (4th from the bottom). Also I thought this quote from the press release was interesting:

Porsche makes the largest percentage improvement in its VDS score, while Hyundai experiences the largest reduction in problems reported by owners. ... Although still hovering below the industry average, Hyundai records a dramatic 115 PP100 improvement (31%).

"Hyundai experienced similar levels of improvement in the 2002 IQS, when these vehicles were new, which shows a successful effort by Hyundai in translating short-term quality improvements into higher long-term quality," said Parker. "Even though there is still room for improvement, Hyundai is a great example of an automaker that is making strides toward improving vehicle quality by paying close attention to owner feedback and designing products with both short- and long-term quality in mind."

So it looks like some makers of economy sedans are making great strides in improving their short- and long-term quality, while other brands... well, not as much.

germancarfan1 · August 2006

Perhaps you should reread the 2006 VDS (and not quote the 2005). There is NO mention of Hyundai. The fact that Hyundai has FALLEN 3 places (as compared with 2005 results)from 20th place (2005) to 23rd place (2006) shows that Hyundai is NOT improving as compared with other brands. For the record, Hyundai improved a grand total of 7 PP100 from 2005, a lovely 2.7%, BELOW the industry average improvement of 4.2%.

Perhaps all those Elantra shimmy problems finally caught up with them.

"So it looks like some makers of economy sedans are making great strides in improving their short- and long-term quality, while other brands... well, not as much."

Really?
Hyundai (23rd) 2.7%

Toyota (5th) 7.7%
Honda (7th) 3.5%
Nissan (20th) 12.0%

iluvmysephia1 · August 2006

for shaking at Super Bowl referees. In other words, they're worth enough to me to take and roll them up and shake them at referees, much like Bobby Knight would do while coaching Indiana Hoosier basketball.

Let me break it to you this way. I have bought two new Kia's in a row and nary a single press release regarding new Kia car quality (initial or otherwise) has ever persuaded me one teeny-weenie iota into wanting to buy a VW, Subaru, Toyota, Hyundai, Saab, Mitsubishi, Volvo, Merceds-Benz, BMW, Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, Honda, Nissan, Isuzu or...or..did I leave one out? Do ya get my point?

Who reads these things and takes them seriously? I mean re-he-ha-he-ha-he-haa-ree-eee-aaaaaaaa-lllll-yyyyyyyyyyyyyy! Dumb and even dumber at half the cost. I know one thing, I will never buy a new VW from anybody, including Kobe Bryant.

joe97 · August 2006

Are you just about finished with your irrelevant (to this thread) propaganda?

The press release (06) does mention Kia as being one of the two most improved brands in the study. "Kia has improved twice as much as any other brands in the past three years, improving 87PP100 (22 percent) from 2005". Signs of improvement despite being ranked in the bottom of the group - one of its models are ranked in the top three in sub-compact.

germancarfan1 · August 2006

"I have bought two new Kia's in a row and nary a single press release regarding new Kia car quality (initial or otherwise) has ever persuaded me one teeny-weenie iota into wanting to buy a VW, Subaru, Toyota, Hyundai, Saab, Mitsubishi, Volvo, Merceds-Benz, BMW, Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, Honda, Nissan, Isuzu or...or..did I leave one out? Do ya get my point?"

Probably because press releases are incapable of depositing more money into your bank account

germancarfan1 · August 2006

"Are you just about finished with your irrelevant (to this thread) propaganda?"

I fail to see how posting reliability information for a brand highly discussed on this board who produces many cars in the $16-20K price range is irrelevant. And since when is JD Power's survey's "propaganda?" It's only "propaganda" when it doesn't show Hyundai is a great light, right?

backy · August 2006

Well, it really would have helped had I clicked on the right link!

So in other words, over the past two years Hyundai has improved its VDS score about 34%. How does that compare to other makes over the same period? Hyundai was 0.8% behind Honda's improvement for the 2006 study. That is bad? If so, it's bad for Honda too I guess.

Also consider that as of this fall, the only design that was included in the 2006 VDS that Hyundai will still be selling is the low-volume Tiburon. And Hyundai's biggest U.S. seller is being made in a factory that didn't start making cars until 2005. So the VDS for 2006 models and beyond will be very interesting to see.

dc_driver · August 2006

I have never been a big fan of JD Powers surveys. Can anyone tell me what the sample size is for them to determine this? I believe it is about 60K vehicles. I tend to trust Consumer Reports reliability rating more than JD since they have a much larger sample size (over 1 million surveys per year).

That said, I do not really know what to make of this. In the sub-compact car segment, Kia and Hyundai each had one car in the top three. In the compact segment (closer to the 16-20 range), Honda and Toyota dominated. I would like to know how companies ranked in the compact car segment to determine the impact to the 16-20K range. Perhaps Kia and Hyundai finished 4th and 5th..

z71bill · August 2006

A sample size change from 60,000 to 1,000,000 - would be statistically insignificant. I don't know if 60,000 or 1,000,000 are the actual sample sizes - but even a sample size of 6,000 would be considered VERY large from a statistical point of view.

I don't feel like doing the math (any statistic teachers out there?) - but going from a sample size of "only" 6,000 up to a sample size of 1,000,000 would increase your confidence in the results by a small amount. Maybe from 99.5% confidence your results are within 1 standard deviation up to 99.6% confidence your result is within one standard deviation.

Look at the polling results you see on the news - they normally only sample 1,000 people out of a population of almost 300,000,000 and the margin of error is only 3-4 %.

The problem with Hyundai is its a Hyundai - when they first came to market all they had was cheap junk - and it will take a long time to change people's opinion.

Ask 1,000 people - if you win the lotto what car would you buy - do you think Hyundai would even get 1 vote? That is statistically significant.

benjaminh · August 2006

For a car less than 20k, it's hard to beat the Accord. There's only one model that lists for less than 20, the VP, which lists for $18,775 for the 5-speed manual. For that price, however, you get 6 airbags, a very advanced engine, stereo, cruise, ac, etc. I've seen this car advertised for sale at a local dealer for $16950. The Accord SE adds a 6-CD changer, alloys, larger tires, EBD, illuminated visor mirrors, steering wheel radio controls, etc, etc.. The list price on this car is 21,225, but I've heard that the last of the 2006's can be had for at or even under invoice, which is about 19,200. It'd be tough to top that for the price.

backy · August 2006

Hullo, this is a discussion about "economy sedans." If someone won the lotto, do you think ANY economy sedan would get a vote?

How many "votes" does Hyundai (in this case, the Elantra) get each year compared to cars like the Mazda3? Does the fact that the Elantra gets more "votes" than the Mazda3 make the Elantra a better car than the Mazda3? I don't think so.

backy · August 2006

For less than $20k, it's very easy to top the Accord. Try the Sonata, which can be had with 234 hp CVVT V6, ABS/traction, six airbags, ESC, moonroof, 17" alloys, etc. etc. for well under $20k.

It still won't get any votes from someone who won the lotto, but a very nice car for under $20k. But not really an "economy sedan", nor is the Accord. An economy sedan would be one that lists for under $20k, e.g. Civic, Corolla, Mazda3, Elantra, Jetta, Sentra.

joe97 · August 2006

"I fail to see how posting reliability information for a brand highly discussed on this board who produces many cars in the $16-20K price range is irrelevant. And since when is JD Power's survey's "propaganda?" It's only "propaganda" when it doesn't show Hyundai is a great light, right?"

Last time I checked, this is a thread about economy sedans, including Hyundai and other brands. So, instead of posting overall VDS results (which would be fine), you purposely singled-out one brand and continued your Hyundai bashing parade/posts. Nice going...

On-topic, I really think the competition will heat up soon, as the new Sentra and Elantra lands at local lots, and the Corolla will follow in the near future (some delay as indicated), although I still think (and personal perference here) the 3 is a player to beat. But as far as sedans are concerned, which make up the bulk of total compact car sales, the new Sentra and Elantra will defn. do wonders for respective car companies.

jlemoine · August 2006

I really enjoy reading these newsgroups, especially enjoy the large following each brand has represented here. I own three Hyundias and love them and won't get convinced to switch, I do have to admit after just returning from a 700 mile trip it appeared every third car was a Toyota Corolla!!

snakeweasel · August 2006

I have never been a big fan of JD Powers surveys. Can anyone tell me what the sample size is for them to determine this? I believe it is about 60K vehicles. I tend to trust Consumer Reports reliability rating more than JD since they have a much larger sample size (over 1 million surveys per year).

The issue is not the sample size but does the sample size represent a cross section of the whole. A sample size of one million that doesn't represent the population as a whole is less accurate that a sample size of 60,000 that does represent the population as a whole. Since CR polls only its subscribers it is not a scientific poll and can be way off. JD powers does a more scientific selection of its poll data so a much smaller sample can provide a more accurate result.

My issue with JD power is that it lists vehicles as the number of problems per 100 vehicles. Which is better a car with three problems or a car with one? The answer to that would depend on what the three problems are compared to what the one problem. I rather have a car that a knob falls off the radio, the turn signal arm is a little loose and the dome light goes out than a car where the only problem is that the engine blows up.

That being said it is entirely possible that the car at the bottom of the list is a better car than the one at the top of the list.

pat · August 2006

Thank you!! I may call on you the next time people get into a "this car is worse than that car because its Problems & Solutions discussion has more posts."

pat · August 2006

A casting director seeks drivers who think of their cars as extensions of their personalities and are able to participate in a rally from Vancouver to LA for two weeks in October. Please visit http://www.carspace.com/bullrun for more information.

doohickie · August 2006

Interesting, but there is no "more information" of any use at the link you posted. It says they're doing it; it doesn't have any contact information or anything like that.

pat · August 2006

Post in the comments section that you are interested and would like more information. Perhaps they will respond to your CarSpace email account, I'm not really sure.

luvmbooty · August 2006

stats and if only it had received a better side crash rating by IIHS, I think it would give the 2006 Civic a run for its money, by thousands! How could it receive a POOR rating with side curtain airbags! :mad:

dc_driver · August 2006

Kia has a history of receiving "Poor" or "Average" side impact ratings even with side airbags. I would attribute it to:
- Faulty airbags?
- Improper head coverage (head hits below the airbag)
- Improper testing.

Too bad. Hopefully they will fix this and re-test.

backy · August 2006

Hopefully the excellent results on the Sedona will carry over to other Kia offerings in the future. The Spectra is due for a mid-gen refresh soon--maybe the crash protection will be beefed up then.

dc_driver · August 2006

I will say this (note, I am not a Kia/Hyundai owner). The fact that Kia/Hyundai are offering safety features such as side airbags, traction control, stability control, etc standard on so many vehicles (while at the same time pricing their vehicles on the low end) should be applauded.

This is one of my biggest peeves against Toyota. They typically package their safety features on their higher end vehicles. Glad to see that Honda is following Kia/Hyundai's lead.. Everyone else should follow this example...

backy · August 2006

It'll be interesting to see what safety features Toyota makes standard on the '08 Corolla. They like to compete closely with Honda, and with side bags/curtains and ABS standard on the Civic... hmmm. Also, it has been well-documented that Toyota is keeping a watchful eye on Hyundai, and the '07 Elantra has side bags/curtains and ABS standard.

beantown · August 2006

The sad part is, Toyotas without all these "standard safety features" still test better than Kias with them.

dc_driver · August 2006

"The sad part is, Toyotas without all these "standard safety features" still test better than Kias with them."

Not true. The 06 Corolla without side airbags gets the lowest rating as well (poor). With side airbags it gets an "acceptable". The Corolla also rates "poor" for rear impact whereas the Kia Spectra rates "acceptable". So as long as you get hit in the front with the Corolla, you should be okay

gcroft · August 2006

I read the last 5 pages of this forum. Any thoughts would be helpful.

I have a h.s. senior who needs a car that will hopefully last her through college. I'm looking for safety, reliability and upper 20s city mpg. Ideally 15-16k + TTL but could maybe go a little more. We live in Houston, it's hot!

So far:

06 civic - few and far between. Pay the MSRP and a lot of times put down a deposit. MSRP gives me heartburn. I never had a chance to drive 1 and have read where the a/c is fair. Used are not around either. Seems other parts of the country can get decent deals but I haven't seen them.

06 corolla s with side air bags - a few more than a civic around and can get them for 1% over invoice. We have gulf states toyota importing here. That's usually another 1000-1500 of bogus port add-ons and even if you stop that they add in extra fees, markups, holdbacks. I bought 1 w/ 10000 miles for 15700 OTD yesterday but turns out there were no side air bags. From what I've read the SAB looks like an important feature for this car. I like the way it drove and called 15 dealers today for a used 1. There were none to be found.

06 mazda 3 - liked the car and could get a good price. The one we drove had a/c every bit as bad as what's on the mazda forum. Dealers quote "tinting the windows helps".

Jetta looks out of my range .

I haven't read a lot of good things about the ion.

Sentra comes out in a couple of more months not that I know anything about nissan any more and their forums dead.

Your earlier conversations on the elantra peaked my interest but I know nothing on Hyundai either. Do I wait for the 07?

Any comments are appreciated.

backy · August 2006

The 2006 Elantra would fit your requirements EXCEPT the IIHS side crash test score is "Poor" (no side curtains). It will be awhile before there are crash test scores on the 2007 Elantra, and also I expect there won't be big discounts/rebates on these right away.

If you must have new, have you considered a 2006 Sonata? It has good crash test scores, standard ESC, ABS/traction, and active front head restraints, and can be had at the upper end of your price range. But they are going fast.

Another option is to get a used car like a 2003+ Accord with side airbags. You could probably find an LX MT for your price range, and it's a reliable, safe car that will hold its value.

gcroft · August 2006

Thanks for the input.

The new elantra looks great but I guess it would be a while(2007) and who knows about crash results and price.

I'm not bent on new, I just don't want to have to worry about it. I'll check out the 04-05 accord 4 cyl and see what I can find. I didn't realize they made a 4 and that would suit her needs.

sandman46 · August 2006

Since you already bought the Corolla yesterday, why all the questions now. I would have asked them before purchasing a new vehicle. On a side note, our '05 Mazda 3s's a/c is doing fine...cools the cabin down in a timely manner without tinted windows. Living in South Florida, it does get pretty hot here and ours works just fine. The dealer checked it out 2 weeks ago, & all is working properly.
My new '06 Civic's a/c works great and with the tinted windows, cools the car down very effectly!

The Sandman

gcroft · August 2006

Ah, I guess I left that part out. I returned the corolla and I really hated to after such a good deal. I sure liked the way that car drove.

With the Mazda 3, the day we drove it the temperature was upper 90s. Unfortunately after 20 minutes it was marginally cool at best, not close to cold like the toyota. I would have bought a mazda other than the a/c. Glad you got a good one. I can't say first hand on the honda as I haven't driven one due to the price.

Well back to looking at accords.

doohickie · August 2006

Actually, except for the crash ratings, I would highly recommend the Elantra... the 2006 model. Hyundai has had good product rollouts recently, but I still hesitate to buy a new model of any make, so I would not wait for the 2007. The 2006 Elantra has pretty much had all the bugs worked out, and the few that linger are not major biggies, especially if the car is maintained properly.

And for the record, I know of a message board where a handful of members have had serious accidents with their Elantras and walked away with very minor or no injuries. I think there's a guy who even rolled his car with his wife and kids in it with no injuries; he turned around a bought another Elantra to replace it.

tsgeisel · August 2006

The Mazda 3 boards have numerous conflicting reports from people for whom the AC works wonderfully and from people for whom it's barely functional. Something to test before you take it off the lot, definitely.

spmrebel · August 2006

Another car you might consider would be a 06 Kia Spectra. I have both an 05 Spectra EX (auto) and 05 Elantra GT (auto). The Spectra drives similiarly to Elantra though its a little more quiet and refined. The interior is also nicer (better ergonomics and plastics) and it has a few more convience items such as remote trunk release, passenger side central locking and auto-tilt up on the sunroof (if you get this option). It also gets consistently better gas mileage.

A big disadvantage though is changing the oil filter on the Spectra. Its a pain compared to the Elantra.

Happy motoring

Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)

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