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Honda S2000 Lease Questions

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  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    i'll email the local dealers and see how cheap I cang et them.

    the rx8 is a run car, but it's not as fun as the s2k when you are just "driving".

    for commuting and hauling a passenger (or two) the 8 would be a really great car. but i'm sort of worried about a used 8 as i know there are some issues with them and i'd hate to be making a used car payment and get hit with repairs.

    i COULD find a really really low mile used 06 and have several years of warranty left..so i'd have some peace of mind, but the 8 depreciates like nuts. so i'd end up with a used 8 for say 18-20k. my monthly payment on a used one would be not too bad... but the lease deal ont he s2k is pretty good and that's for brand new with full waranty.

    i'd be on the hook for my monthly payment and that's it.

    also, i'm very much into performance. after driving the 8 and the s2k, i can say for a fact that the 8 would leave me wanting to mod it. i'd for sure want to stiffen up[t he springs, sway bars...and then i'm dumping a couple of grand just tog et it to handle like the s2k. the s2k, when i drove it, was PERFECT as is. i know guys mod it, but bone stock the s2k would be FINE for me and I would be perfectly happy to drive it through out the lase and NOT mod a thing.

    the 8 would get me in the mod mood..and i don't know if I really want to buya usd car that i need to mod to make me happy in it. if i bougth used, i could do mods, and mazdaspeed sells stuff that the dealer won't void warranty on...so you can do it.

    i wonder what would handle better. a bone stock s2k, or an 06 RX8 with coilovers, sway bars, strut bars? hmmmm...

    very tough decision. buying used vs a lease of new. the new s2k would be more fun to thrash around but at the end of the lease, you've spent that money and you "own" nothing.

    on a used rx8 purchase, say i pick it up for 20k out the door. spend 2k to make it handle like the s2k (or maybe even OUT handle the s2k) and in 4-05 years of payments i'd own it outright and lets say it was worth 20k when i bought it, in 5 years, maybe it's still wroth 5k or so... so i've "spent" a net of 15k.

    on a 3 years lease,of an s2k, that's about all i'll spend. so in the short run i'd spend more on the s2k lease and spend less in the long run to buy the 8.

    they are both cool cars.

    i really hate that digital LED bar graph looking tach on the s2k and I love the 8's tach/gauge setup. very cool. i like the shifter int he 8 better too.

    i need to test dive a used 8 to see how i like it.

    tough decision. :)

    of course my wife thinks I should wait for the 09 TL that is AWD, then sell my s70 volvo, and put the cash toward that. :)

    i kinda want a sports car though.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    The 8 is sports car, but is more of a GT in looks and somewhat in feel. The smoothness of the motor and the non-hard ride can fool you into thinking it is not fast and not handing the road. But it you drove them back to back over the same roads you would see the 8 does not give up much to the S. My problems with it were the gulping of gas, slurping of oil, and lack of resale value and also long term reliability. So while I loved driving the car, loved the look of it inside and out - my 8 GT 6mt w/Nav was much, much "richer" looking inside and out - I just could not pull the ownership trigger. I loved the M5 I used to have too, until it started having failures (with less than 15k on the clock) and left me stranded 2 month in a row. So like the 8 it had to go. The 8 stereo was not too good and the odd-ball design and Bose amps means no cheap upgrade - the S is a standard DIN stereo with standard size door speakers.

    The S has little insulation sound or temp, just look under the fender wells or under the dash. It is a bare bones sports car - but has some luxury touches like leather, power roof, etc.

    I went back and looked at the deal on my 05 S, it was $200-300 under invoice including the dealer doc fee. The MF was higher but the residual was as well, which along with the lower invoice back in 05 equalled a better deal. I think around $30 a month less that the deal today. The best price I have gotten so far on an 08 S is invoice plus dealer fee, but I think they will do it for invoice including the fee once I push them a bit. Since I still have a few months to go on my current lease, I think I will wait and see if the deals getting any better. After all, I have one to drive now and worst case I will just buy mine at lease end if nothing better comes up. I have been watching the S lease numbers for a while and even though they have not been selling well at all, Honda has not been doing really cheap leases - so this could be as good as it gets. Really no way for us to know.

    Dennis
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    Dennis-

    sent you an email. don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into an RX8 vs S2k discussion.

    this is the s2k lease forum.

    as for the lease deals - my goal is to get the car AT or below invoice and then use the attractive MF to get the lowest possible payment. the residuals looks average.

    one question is this - my local dealer has 4 2007s and 2 2008s. the lease deal is only applicable to the 08s.

    i'm knowledgeable enough about leases to understand how they work, what the different terms all mean, etc. i've read all the tutorials on leases and have leased two cars in the past.

    for a toy car like an s2k - that i'll be driving short distances...and a car like the s2k that has a reputation for having great reliability...part of me wonders if i'd want to buy it and then keep it for 6-7 years. given the low mileage i'd put on it - it would probably last at LEAST that long for me. i'm not going to be commuting 100 miles a day in it. I will probably drive it to work - but i live 5 miles from the office - so a few hundred miles a month in commuting to work and then whatever I can put on it during evenings weekends.

    i'm almost wondering if I'd be able to use up the 12k/year - probably not. i bet i'd be more like 5-7k.

    so lets say I negotiate a purchse on a 2007 and there is some kind of incentive and I can get the purchase price down to about 28000 or so. the prices paid forum has guys claiming that's about what they paid. i'm guessing the 08s would sell at invoice, so 31500 or so.

    so i can buy a new 07 and save 3500 or so. or lease an 08 and have the low MF. if I buy, i'd put a small amount down, say 3k and finance over the length of time i plan to own - say 72 months. the payment over 72 months is $457.

    now on the lease, it's only 3 years. so in three years, I own nothing and have to turn it in. with the purchase, at the end of the payments I own the car. so you have to try to estimate what the car would be worth at the end of the payments, and then look at what you spent along the way.

    to try and get an idea what a 6 year old s2k is worth, i hit kbb.com. i know the estimates are usually optimistically high...but for kicks, i put in a 2001 S2000 with 75000 miles. it claims a private party value is 15000. it says trade in is 10-12k. so lets assume the lowest value - it's worth $10,000 at the end of 7 years.

    if I put down 3000 on the purchase, then pay $457/month for 72 months, plus my 3000 down payment, i've paid roughly $36000 for the car. and once i've paid all that mney, i have an asset with a value of about $10k were i to sell or trade it. so if you factor in the value of the asset, my net costs were really 26,000.

    the lease for 3 years is $350/month with 3000 down. that comes out to about $15,600 over 36 months. if you threoretically did two of these leases back to back (yeah you can't b/c there won't be an s2k in 2011, but assume you found something comparable for the same deal) then you're net costs are about 31000.

    31,000 - 26000 = 5000. So in the long run, you technically are 5000 "ahead" by purchasing the s2k and owning it outright. unless along the 72 months you have 5000 in repairs that you would NOT have on the leased cars. i can see some repairs being done but not 5k worth.

    another upside to the lease scenario is that you have a NEW car from years 1-3 and then another NEW car from years 4-6. there are obvious upsides to having a new car vs a used/older one.

    if you spread the 5000 "extra" across the 72 month period, you are essentially paying $70/month MORE to lease than to own - in the long run. in the short run you pay LESS by about $100/month. so if cash flow is tight, lease. but you won't have anythign to show for it in the end. just the fun of having the car while you pay.
    if you buy, and you really like the car, years 7+ become gravy. NO payment, just drive it, enjoy it, and maintain it. costs will go way way down.

    of course you know in 7 years there will be all new cars, and the s2k, as cool as you think it is now, will be "old" and a car nut like me will want something new. so

    the whole lease vs buy thing is a hard call. there are short term benefits to leasing, but the purchase wins out in the long run. i think.

    anyone care to correct my math? or point out wher my logic may be flawed?

    as far as the lease deal is now - it seems good. it might get better, but probably not a whole lot.
  • I'm going off of memory here but you should get the idea...

    There have been arguments here that you can purchase the S at some $500/month and given the low mileage you expect to put on the car, you could sell it in 3-5 years and due to the lower miles than most, be able to sell it for a bit more than it is worth and make back some of the money you spent each month. Now, keep in mind that the S is slowing in sales so it might be harder to sell this in a 7 years as you posted (the car will essentially have been around for 14 years at this point). I ran through the exact debate you are going through right now. For me, money was huge factor and quite frankly, I couldn't afford to buy it unless I extended it for 6 or 7 year purchase which is nuts for the amount of miles I drive in a year. I found a dealership willing to let one go for $27,500 plus TTL. I could afford a 3 year lease but I didn't think I'd be ready to give up the S in 3 years but 4 years, I thought just maybe. After 4 years, if I still love this car, I'll buy it and possible negotiate an even lower price than what the residual is stated to be worth (if Honda is having trouble moving them now, hopefully, they'll have tough time moving them later). If not, I walk away a VERY satisfied driver. I've had my S since may of 2007 and almost 10,000 miles later, I still am very much in love with this car (it is a daily love affair). I'm still on the fence as to whether I"ll buy it or not; it will probably all depend on where I am financially in life in a few more years. If I can afford a 2nd beater car and save the S for the weekends, then I'll buy the S and give it a break from the daily driver duties.

    On a side note about finances, the difference of my lease and what my purchase car payement would be, I do invest the difference into an emmigrant account which makes about 4.5% right now, which is signifcanntly higher than my interest rate negotiated on my lease rate. :) So, by leasing, I've also managed to save/invest almost $1700 to date. Over the entire lease term, I'll have invested almost $10,000.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Honda can't sell S2000s, even with cheap promo lease deals and/or huge dealer incentives. Heck, they have as much as $2,500 IIRC on 07s last year and I know most dealers still have several of those on the lot.

    This means you are going to have trouble selling a used one - if Honda is selling them for $27,500 new then that depresses the whole market.

    That said, if you can lease one now cheap (the current deal is 1.3% effective) then I would do the lease, then perhaps buy rather than buy outright. At the end of the lease you can try to sell the car, trade it, turn it in, or buy it. If you run the numbers, paying a new car payment at the current rates VS leasing then buying at used car rates (which are higher than new rates) will probably come out $1k or $2k behind doing lease/buy than doing buy. Your actual number will vary and could be closer to $1k., You can't know the used car rate in 3 years either. I figure if you get the lease/buy that close to buy then go for it then all the options are in your hands. If you buy on a long loan you may well be upside down in 3 years and CAN'T get out of the car.

    The glory days of high residuals are gone now. My first S was an 01 and IIRC I paid $27,500 for it (used with 1,700 miles on it) and the 3/36 residual for it was around $19,500. At the time the lease was up the car would be over 4 years old. The residual on my 05 (new for $30,000) is just under $20k. The residual on the new 08 ($32k invoice) is under $20k. So the price goes up and the residual stays the same or goes down.

    Dennis
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    I'm leaning toward the lease.

    a big factor is that this is a "toy" purchase. you know, with the economy the way it is, part of me even wonders if i would be smarter to just wait 6 months and THEN see what the deals are like. My job, luckily, is public safety/gov't - so while nobody is 100% immune to layoffs/etc... i'm about as insulated as one can get. we may have hiring freezes, or no cost of living adjustments, no raises, but the odds of being let go - at my seniority level - not going to happen. so that being said, i'm comfortable biting off a toy purchase even with the problems we are facing, but i'm more than happy to wait if the deals will get a LOT sweeter.

    since this is a toy purchase, and while I make a good living, i'm NOT independently wealthy, and do have two other cars to pay for, and 3 little mouths to feed at home - the lower i can keep the monthly costs the better. leasing gives me a lower monthly payment - and like Dennis said, my options are open. if i love the car and don't puta lot of miles on it, and it's worth more than my residual, i can buy it and in the end, i really won't be that worse off than had i bought at the get go.

    i still think about the rx8, but for a car that is just for ME - the s2k is the way to go. right now, i drive my POS volvo to work, and every mile i drive i think how much i hate the car. it's not really that i hate it, it's that I hate NOT having a fun car. so I "take it out" on my daily driver/commuter which really is a GREAT car for what it is. but having an s2k to drive to/from work - to redline the stink out of it and have the wind in my hair on nice sunny southern CA days - what a blast. of course convincing my wife that I should take off on sat / sun morning for a drive by myself, while she stays at home with 3 kids is gonna be a tough sell. although, once I get her away on a few all day drives, and the kids are left at home with a sitter - I think she'll see how much fun it will be. :)

    i don't know about you guys, but to me - driving a sports car is like stress therapy. havin ga fun car to drive, a truly fun car like an s2k or a boxster, an rx8, a miata, or anything that plasters a smile on your face as you listen to the motor, shift the gears - it's a stress reliever, mental health booster - whatever you want to call it.

    i'd rather to for a 30 minute drive, bang off the rev limiter and get my fix that way instead of going home and having a makers mark. :)
  • bernatbernat Posts: 1
    Just saw this listed on Miller Honda's website (Van Nuys, CA):
    (I did not see it posted before, sorry if it is a re-post)
    **************************************************************************

    Offer good from 01/03/2008 to 03/03/2008

    2008 S2000 Featured Special Lease
    $349.00 per month for 36 months. $2,499.00 total due at signing.
    Includes down payment with no security deposit. Excludes taxes, titles and fees. For well-qualified buyers.

    FEATURED SPECIAL LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2008 S2000 Manual Transmission (Model AP2148ENW) for $349.00 per month for 36 months with a $1,555.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $2,499.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, AHFC upfront acquisition fee and capitalized cost reduction; with no security deposit. Total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify. See dealer for complete details.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    It is the same as posted on the Honda web page, the numbers work out to a low 0.00054 MF (1.30% equivalent) with a so-so 56% residual. The net is a pretty good lease deal, but not quite a good (payment-wise) as they have done in the past.

    Dennis
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    the money factor is good. I think Honda Finance can set the MF where they want. But the residual - is probably more or less something that gets set based on what their actuarial tables (or whatever you call them) predict the car will be worth. then they fudge around with what kind of a MF they can or are willing to do to get the total $$ of the lease to a level that will still profit something and attract buyers.

    the deal is pretty good though. if I were READY to pull the trigger, I wouldn't not do it just to try and save another $15-20/month.

    I may end up having to wait at least 30-60 more days. Honda's website said the current deal is good until 03/03/08.

    It's anyone's guess if the deal will get BETTER or not after that date. If I had to guess I would suspect it will stay about the same or get slightly better.

    Just before the end of the year, I was looking at the Acura TL. the MF on that was .00081. the "then" deal expired on 01/03/08. Everyone on the TL forum was guessing whether the deal would end or not after the 3rd. well the residual droped a %, but the MF was reduced even further, so that the effective price you would pay stayed almost exactly the same.

    if you figure the S2000 sales stink just like the TL sales do, and the S2k is being discontinued...as is the third gen TL, due to the 09 being a redesigned model - my guess is that come 3/8, HOnda will keep the deal the same to move the remaining cars, or it might get better. the residuals may drop, but the MF may drop too. maybe they will make the deal better. maybe not. I'd be VERY suprised if they made the deals WORSE. good luck seling an s2k when a customer comes in expecting the current lease deal, only to be told "oh sorry we cancelled that deal, you'll hae to pay an extra $50/month"...customer will get that sour grapes FU attitude and say bite me and walk. so they probably will keep the deal in place. at least if I was gonna bet on it, that's what I would put my money on.

    the economy sucks right now. cars are sitting on lots. and s2ks are NOT selling nearly as well as everythign else. it's a two seater impractical car that is about to get discontinue and has been around a long time...it's not exactly flying off the shelf.

    don't get me wrong, I want one. but ONLY for a smokin' deal.

    now what color do I want... :)
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    The difference is when they get the cars back at the end of the lease and can't get 65% or whatever of MSRP for them. The captive lease banks usually do several points over the ALG residual the 3rd party banks do then money with the MF to make the deal sweet or sour. They know if the MF is high (like the 08 Accords) and you try to go 3rd party lease the lower real-world MF that the 3rd party bank is using will net out the same or ever higher payment than they get using an inflated residual and a high MF.

    When they want to make a deal sweet they go with a really low MF, unrealistically high residual, or both at the same time.

    The ALG residual on a new 08 S2000 is 50% but the AHFC residual is 56% and the couple that with a 0.00054 MF (vs 0.00230-0.00240 real world). So in this case a 3rd party lease is not even close.

    We had folks wait before trying to get a better rate and it never happened. Other times a great rate would get even better. Unless they bump up the residual they can't lower this rate by much - and if they did it would not change the payment by much. If they dropped it to the 0.00014 they have on the Pilot the S payment would go down about $20 per month. Which is not all that much, in the grand scheme of things.

    I got mine in the summer of 05, which you would THINK would not be the good time to get a deal on a convertible. I would think spring is the WORST time since in most place it is top down time with only the far north being still too cold. Once summer hits it is too hot in the south to sell lots of convertibles. Right not is a too cold (for most folks) for top down driving in most parts of the country so sales will be slow and we think deals good.

    If I lived where I could drive top down NOW and didn't already have a convertible, I would try to find a dealer willing to go invoice including fees on an 08 and do the lease. Then not only do you get a nice deal you start driving NOW. In 3 or 4 months if the lease deals are a LITTLE better you will have been enjoying driving all those months. If the deals don't get better, then you wasted the time you could be driving a convertible. If you live where it is way too cold for top down driving, you may can get one for even less - the dealer is looking at several on the lot and months before warmer weather arrives so may be willing to take more of a beating on the price to make a sale NOW rather than hang on to try to make a little more months down the road. I once leased a new 'vette convertible sight-unseen from a dealer north of Green Bay in December. He even paid 1/2 the haul charge to have to brought to me. I guess he knew if I didn't take it he could be looking at in (on his showroom floor) for 6 months or more :D .

    Funny story, the "Internet sales manager" at a Honda dealership e-mailed me today saying it was "taking too much time answering all my questions and e-mails" and I needed to "come in and pick out a car and they would make me the best possible deal" on it. Give me a break. I don't go onto a car lot without a deal in place - that is WHY I deal with the Internet folks - I want the rock bottom price and THEN I come in, pick out a car, and sign the papers. I don't start negotiating on the lot.

    Dennis
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    you are so right about NOT making the deal on the lot.

    I learned that with my MDX. I had plenty of dealers refuse to deal via the phone or internet and insisted I "come down and then I will give you a great deal". I politely told them I had a great deal in writing from dealer X, and I'd like them to beat it to earn my business and fax me the deal in writing. Some played and faxed the offer, but many gave me "you have to come down" line.

    One guy was upfront. he said "you probably aren't in my immediate area, and you're just using me to drive down the price, then you'll take my offer to some other dealer, and they will get your business". that's almost exactly what he said. he was sort of right..but i guess they get enough guys like us that some of them get fed up with it. oh well, that's their job - to make offers, and try to sell cars. some just want some sucker to come ont he lot and tell them "how much they have to have this car".

    I'm sold on the s2k. i just need to finish selling my wife on it. :) she's not 100% thrilled at the idea of me getting a two seater. I think she assumes that I'll drive off into the sunset and not come home all day - and leave here home with the kids. :)

    I just want something cool to drive to/from work so each day I get a sports car "fix".
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Just wondering.

    Several folks were talking about it when the new deals showed up, but I didn't see anyone post that they pull the trigger on a lease deal.

    I talked to the dealer we just leased our Pilot through (super deal) and they would lease me the new S for $500 under invoice (IIRC) but would only allow $17.5k to $19k trade on my 05. So I will have to wait for my 05 lease to end and see there are any good deals at that time, or just sell my S retail, or do as I had originally planned and buy my S at lease end.

    Dennis
  • Good luck with that! 7 months later and my wife (no kids) are still not thrilled with the car. You can try the gas mileage angle but with so many other cars now getting 30+ mpg, it might be a bit hard.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    My wife love riding in the S, what is not to love :D ? She does not care for driving it, but if the weather is nice she is always willing to go for a ride. Though it is smaller inside and trunk space, she likes it more than the C5 'vette I had and for sure better than the Miata M.

    Dennis
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    i saw on another board that this past friday, Honda bumped up the dealer cash incentives on some models. not sure which ones.

    did the s2000 get more cash behind it to sweeten the deals?
  • Hey 23109vc. Honda did raise its dealer cash on the 2008 Pilot and Ridgeline a couple of weeks ago, but unfortunately it did not introduce any on the 2008 S2000. At least there is a special lease program on it.

    Car_man
    Host
    Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    is up. Not much change. The MF is down to 0.00035 (from 0.00054) but the residual has dropped 1% to 55% from 56%. The net effect is the "special" pre-figured lease is the same as last month. $2,500 and signing gets you $349 per month - plus taxes, etc.

    Just like before, the deal as figured is OK but you can negotiate the price of the car down and you certainly do not have to put down $2,500. Once you have a nice price, then roll everything into the lease except maybe first payment and see how it looks. Don't sink your money into a lease at 0.84% effective financing - keep your money in the bank and use Honda's cheap money. So what if the payment is higher? You are still driving and S on the cheap :D .

    Now if Honda would put some dealer money on these on TOP of the cheap lease, then we would have something.

    Dennis
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    i test drove a used boxster. OMFG. so much nicer. the sound alone was intoxicating. i know honda is more reliable...but wow. decisions.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    No doubt they are nice cars, but you have to be rich (or a mechanic) to own and maintain one. IIRC they have to drop the motor to change spark plugs, for example :D .

    If you are just looking for a sunny day car that will not see a lot of miles, then you might be OK. If you are looking for a daily drive that you will have to depend on and maintain then the "total cost of ownership" for any Porsche is something to consider.

    BTW, it looks like for April the S2000 lease deal is carried on the same as it was. Pretty nice, but they have had better deals (but not in a while).

    Dennis
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Vehicle: 2008 Honda S2000 in New Formula Red and black leather

    Options: none

    MSRP: $34,935
    Invoice: $31,689

    My price for the car, destination, and dealer fee: $30,247.37
    Acquisition Fee: $595
    Final Cap Cost: $30,842.37

    Lease term: 36 months
    Allowed Miles: 12k per year
    Residual: $18,864.49 (54%)
    Money Factor: 0.00073
    Security Deposit: Waived

    Base Payment: $369.00
    With State Tax: $394.84

    Amount paid at signing: first payment and $83 in tax

    Note that there is a $1,000 dealer incentive for AHFC leased S2000s that is not available if you purchase the car. They do offer 0.9% to 2.9% financing, but the lease is at 1.752% effective interest and the $1k incentive wipes out the $595 bank fee and lowers the price $405 (in effect) so I think you would be nuts to buy the car .

    The lease deal shown on the Honda web page runs from 5/1 to 7/7 so I assume the MF and residual will be the same through that time.

    Dennis
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