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Comments
Of course I am. My response wasn't meant to negate your suggestion as I didn't reference it at all. I was just pointing out further information in the discussion.
If I remember correctly, I think this poster mentioned that he had driven his new Elantra even more conservatively than he did a previous car and couldn't achieve the mpg he had previously with the new Elantra that's rated substantially higher mpg. I have a 2007 Mazda6 2.3l auto which my wife drives about 52 miles round trip daily with a mixture of about 30city/70 hwy. She averages 28 mpg tank in tank out. She drives fast too(proven by a recent speeding ticket I may add). That avg is above what the EPA estimates the avg to be. If I bought an Elantra and I did not even average the city rating on the car I would be PO'd too. Especially if I knew of others that were getting a lot better mpg with their Elantras. You know what the dealers tell these people which just probably makes it worse.
It seems to be clear that a small percentage of people are having problems getting close to estimates no matter how hard they try. I just think we should keep an open mind and consider there may be a problem with some of the cars and not the owners.
My wife would tell you she drives very "conservatively", and from what I've observed that's true in general. Although she occasionally runs up the speed without thinking and has had a couple speeding tickets. And for some reason she can't master using a light touch on the gas. Also, she drives a lot of short trips and likes to keep the engine running while she's waiting for our daughter at school etc. So while she believes she drives conservatively, she gets very poor FE while driving.
I think someone could make a very good business for himself/herself if they could teach people how to drive for high fuel economy. There's driving classes for safety, for handling emergency conditions... why not for fuel economy?
Also, some feather-foot training is due for many complainers who don't know how to drive efficiently. Funny how so many complainers expect they can match or excel the professionals driving the EPA mpg tests.
Yes, that's true but most of those things will average out over time and affect all drivers and vehicles pretty much equally. I have to assume that these unsatisfied owners are driving in a similar manner to which they drove their previous vehicles. If they bought the Elantra to save fuel they may even be driving more conservatively.....who knows?
By the way, my wife is the opposite. She does not say she drives conservatively and from what I've observed she is right. Neither of us are in any shape or form hypermilers. I probably drive like I always have as I would guess that to really affect my mpg a whole lot I would really have to baby it and that would take out a lot of the fun of driving for me.
I guess you are assuming that all the people that are complaining about their FE with the new Elantra are just stupid then. Driving to save gas in not brain surgery and the information is out there and easily attainable. I doubt if you asked any driver how they could save gas that they wouldn't know most of the methods. They just don't practise them. Kind of like leading a horse to water so to speak.
I have ethanol mix year round here in Chicagoland and I alway meet or beat the EPA numbers. And I don't drive with a feather under my foot. Since 2008 when the EPA revised their numbers it has been pretty easy to meet or surpass their estimates unless you drive really hard in most cars. So when I read a lot of reports of people not even getting close to the EPA numbers even when they seem to be trying very hard, I'm not quick to assign labels to them like "complainers". That is a little condescending IMO.
Looking at the extensive & accurate map of ethanol-free gas stations listed at pure-gas.org, I see that m6user is correct & I'm sorry no ethanol-free gas stations are in the Chicago area. But for those who do have ethanol-free gas stations, near you, I urge you to extensively test ethanol-free gasoline. Ethanol-free gas is NOT higher octane gas, but is gasoline without ethanol, & which is getting rare & even non-existent in many areas. In my own town, ethanol-free is unavailable, & I must go to the next town to purchase it. & a station with a good price on ethanol-free is in the next town, yet further from me.
As stated in another post previously, tho the ethanol industry & Federal government admit to only a 2% to 4% loss in mpg from the use of 10% ethanol blend, my 3 cars show a 4% to 7% mpg difference. Many, many other people voice even greater losses from the use of 10% ethanol blends. Tho actual lost btus of energy are about 3% from the use of 10% ethanol blends, seems like many cars may be losing the sweet spot of efficient combustion from their individual cars which were designed to be at their best with 100% gasoline AND AS THE EPA TESTS ALL MANUFACTURERS VEHICLES FOR MPG.
Along with urging people to use ethanol-free gasoline, make sure your tires are at proper pressures, specially in these times of cooling weather which may lower tire pressures. Studies have indicated millions of people have lost billions of gallons of fuel due to underinflated tires. Without regular monitoring of tire pressures, I've even found my tires underinflated at times. In my northern region of the country, I normally drive with a few extra pounds of tire pressure.
However, honestly I am a little disappointed with the MPG I achieve in the city. My Elantra is a great highway car, I get pretty much 40mpg on long distance highway trips when going between 70-80mph on cruise. However, I commute to work in the city daily and the MPG rating is drastically different. I only get about 20-22mpg city driving. My gas seems to burn fairly quickly driving in the city as oppose to long distance highway trips. I can drive from Jersey to New York and back with still a full tank of gas in the car. Yet, when driving to work in the city (much shorter distance) my gas tank depletes rapidly.
I know the Elantra is rated with a higher Highway mpg than city, but the advertise 29/40 should actually be 20/40. No matter how conservative I drive, with ECO on, slow accelation, no extra weight in the car, etc., I get no more than 21-22 mpg at best!
I still love my car because it doesn't cost much to fill up, but IMHO, the Elantra is a highway vehicle more so than a city commuter. The best city commuter in my oppinon is the Ford Fusion Hybrid, that baby runs on pure battery if you stay below 47mph (no gas at all). I and most city commuters only do about 25-40 mph city driving. So the Fusion Hybrid wins. I almost bought the Fusion hybrid, but the Elantra's price and style won me over. However, now I believe for city commuter purposes solely, the Fusion Hybrid would've been the better choice. However, still love my Elantra. Just wish I could get that advertise mpg
I've seen rumors on the 'net of an Elantra hybrid, but I haven't seen anything official on it. Hyundai certainly has the technology for it, since they have the Sonata hybrid. Just need to apply it to a smaller gas engine.
In the average city type driving the EPA may be close although from what I've been reading here and other places the city rating of 29 has been difficult to reach for most drivers while the hwy mpg estimate seems to attainable for most drivers of the Elantra.
Dolf
I note that a lot of people on this forum are having the same problem with in-town mpg as I am while other people seem to get the advertized mpg. It seems like this may be a production issue that is affecting only some elantras and maybe there will be a recall later?
I wonder if there is any connection to what plant the Elantras are assembled at. Mine is a 2011 Limited assembled at the Alabama plant
- Ethanol content in the gas. If your area has "up to 10% Ethanol" in the gas you'll lose some fuel economy.
- Short v. long trips. When the engine is first started it will run rich until fully warmed up. So for trips of only a few miles fuel econ with always be worse.
- Weather conditions. AC usage (includes when using front defrost) can drag MPG down. Heavy use of electrical components like the rear defrost & wipers will cause the alternator/generator to work harder to keep the battery charged. That increases engine drag which imposes a slight econ penalty.
- Vehicle condition, mostly the air filter and tire pressure. At 15K your engine air filter is probably about due for replacement.
It's pretty easy to have 5 or 6 things that each degrade economy by 0.5-2%. Added together a 6-15% economy drop can easily be attributed to vehicle maintenance, available fuel, & the weather.
And I'm a little confused by your next statement. If your Hyundai has irritated you so much, why would you reward them with another sale?
FWIW, from those complaining about Elantra MPG I've yet to see anything that indicates the manufacturing plant as a differentiator. My wife's '12 Elantra is Korean.
Last 4 times I drove my Elantra I drove no more than about 1 mile in any one direction (to grocery store/Post Office). So I started up a cold car, drove it cold for 1 mile or so (no stop lights or stop signs). Shut it off. Then did same going back home. My mileage in such case is about 21-22 mpg, and that doesn't surprise me, esp. as outside temp is about 25-40 deg F and I've only got about 1,000 miles on her.
They've apparently been telling us what we want to hear but there's little substance to it. Has our government been aware all along and looked the other way?
Here's an excerpt and a link to the story -
Heather Peters says her car never came close to getting the promised 50 miles per gallon, and as its battery deteriorated, it was getting only 30 mpg. She wants Honda to pay for her trouble and the extra money she spent on gas.
Peters, a former lawyer who long ago gave up her bar card, has devised a unique legal vehicle to drive Honda into court — a small claims suit that could cost the company up to $10,000 in her case and every other individual case filed in the same manner.
If other claimants follow her lead, she estimates Honda could be forced to pay $2 billion in damages. No high-priced lawyers are involved and the process is streamlined.
http://news.yahoo.com/woman-takes-unique-road-sue-honda-over-mileage-084530601.h- - - tml
And a video -
http://www.latimes.com/videogallery/67016517/News/KTLA-Woman-Takes-Honda-to-Cour- - - - - - - t-Over-Gas-Mileage-Glen-Walker-reports
These companies may have already calculated into their gains the potential losses that might be incurred from this problem, but I wonder if they've also calculated the anger and loss of trust and loyalty?
In fact the general mood in this country seems to be that people are at the end of their rope with being gamed by the system and having their pockets picked everywhere they turn.
OTOH, I work with a guy who's very happy with the FE he gets on his Civic hybrid (previous generation car). He routinely gets 50+ mpg. Another testament to the statement that the EPA makes about its FE estimates: "Your mileage may vary."
I am getting only 27 mpg in mixed driving on my 2010 Sentra right now. That's the CITY EPA rating, not the mixed rating. I think I'll sue Nissan. Or maybe the EPA.
Except... it's the middle of winter (temp this morning was 12 F), I make a lot of short trips (with some urban highway), and in warmer weather I easily get over 30 mpg mixed driving and upper 30s on the highway under 70 mph. Which exceeds the EPA ratings.
I think the general mood in this country is that not enough people take time to read and understand the full story (e.g. on EPA fuel economy estimates), and also not enough people take personal responsibility for their actions and the effects of those actions. It's always someone else's fault when something doesn't work out as they think it should have.
But... cars, especially hybrids, are complex machines, so they can malfunction and break, which can result in lower-than-expected FE. But these kinds of problems don't mean there's some kind of conspiracy by the manufacturer and/or EPA to design cars that don't meet their EPA estimates when driven similarly to how the EPA tests them.
However, please consider how you would react or feel if you bought a new car that was rated at substantially higher MPG than your present Sentra. You drove the same way and in the same conditions and couldn't achieve any better than the same MPG you currently get. Complaints to the dealer result in "sorry, performing within specs" and responses on line equate to "YMMV" or "you don't know how to drive". Since you're very knowledgeable about achieving good gas mileage I would imagine that it would be very frustrating. Not conspiracy material but very upsetting just the same.
I personally think that this Elantra MPG issue is probably blown out of proportion relative to the vast numbers of Elantra sold. But from perusing these forums over the years and from what I read in other mediums, this issue seems to have some legs as it applies to a substantial number of Elantra owners.
I haven't yet purchased or leased a car that has a higher EPA FE rating than the Sentra (almost bought a Prius once but had to cancel the order), but I've driven a lot of them, as rentals and on test drives. Including Elantras, but many others. On some of these, I've achieved significantly lower than the EPA rating. On others, I've met or exceeded the EPA rating. The Elantras I've driven fall into the latter category.
Each time I consider WHY I got the FE I did. What I've found over the years is this: when my driving is similar to what I do at home, under good conditions (NOT middle of winter), I have no problem meeting or exceeding the EPA numbers on any car I've driven and measured the FE on. But when I drive differently, e.g. very short trips in very hot or cold weather, I don't get the EPA rating for the car. It's a very consistent pattern.
You may have noticed that when someone complains in these forums about not getting the FE they expect, I encourage them to do a controlled test to see if the car is CAPABLE of meeting or exceeding its EPA rating under controlled, near-ideal conditions. If it isn't, then I advise the owner to check into a problem with the car. No "you don't know how to drive", but an idea on how to get to the bottom of the FE numbers. I've given this advice dozens of times over the years. NEVER--not once--has anyone returned to say they did the controlled test and here's the results. I have to wonder about that.
There's so many factors that can affect FE--I know you know that. I think it's prudent to investigate all of those areas first, before going down the conspiracy/lawsuit route.
The other thing that I think is behind complaints on 40-mpg cars like the Elantra... expectations are higher. Also, consider that 10% of 40 is 4. 10% of 22 is 2. I have a feeling there's something psychological at work here. If someone expects to get 40 mpg, for example, and gets only 36, it sounds worse than if they expected 22 mpg and got 20.
And if there's salespeople who are telling buyers, "Oh yes, you'll get 40 mpg in the Elantra, no doubt about it!"--shame on them! And btw, that IS grounds for a lawsuit IMO--material misrepresentation by an agent of HMA. Proving it in court could be tough though.
If I had several cars which I consistently attained EPA numbers and then bought a car(drove it the same, same conditions, blah, blah) in which I couldn't get close to EPA numbers I would personally have a problem with that. It is people with stories like this that I think bear some investigation.
As far as your test goes. I agree it will give you a very brief snapshot of HWY MPG and may well paint a more rosier picture which may explain why people don't report back being human nature and all. However, that is not how the EPA tests are done. My point is if I consistently averaged 28 mpg in my old car that was rated, say 27-29 avg, and then purchased a new car that EPA avg was 33 mpg but I could only achieve the same 28mpg avg, I would be questioning it like a lot of these people. That is well over 10% off and you would think everything else being equal you should be able to achieve at least a few more mpg from the new car.
Many of these people are stating that even driving almost to the point of hypermiling they can't achieve the numbers. Like you, I have never had a problem getting the EPA numbers and if I were to drive a lot easier I'm sure I could surpass them. So this is puzzling to say the least.
I haven't seen that kind of comment from "many" people here. If someone does think they are "hypermiling" in any car and not seeing EPA ratings, I'd like to know what they consider "hypermiling" and what their driving conditions are.
I don't come close to "hypermiling" but just use some basic fuel-saving techniques, e.g. light foot on the gas, anticipate stops, no long warmups, watch the speed on highways, and no long idling. And I had no trouble getting the EPA rating or above on the Elantra. So I know it CAN be done. But clearly not by everyone, under all conditions. And there's always the possibility of some kind of component problem affecting FE on some cars.
I think the operative word above is "the". If I drove one and didn't get the EPA would you give it the same credence? As you said, there's always the possibility of some kind of component or even a programming problem in some cars which is really all I've been saying all along.
I made a simple statement of fact, from my experience. I know that not everyone gets EPA numbers. Heck, if I went out today (12 F) and rented an Elantra and drove it on short trips around town, I bet I wouldn't come close to its EPA rating. But I know it's possible to do, under a mix of city/highway driving in hot weather (summer, in Austin, TX). I have a feeling some folks believe it's impossible to get EPA numbers with the Elantra. That is not the case. But will everyone always get the EPA numbers? No way.
As far as process is concerned, you might try reading the article I posted Jan. 3 (above) about the woman who is suing in small claims over a similar issue with her Honda Civic. She's apparently an attorney and created a web site to explain the process. You don't need an attorney for small claims and the potential of actually getting financial compensation is greater than, say, a class action suit.
I don't know if that's true or not.
roadscholar3, "Hyundai Elantra Real World MPG 2011 MY and earlier" #575, 3 Jan 2012 2:32 am#MSG574
I will never buy another hyundai in my life again.
Right or wrong, if its not above 45 you'll never get 40 MPG and if its lower than 30 you wont even get 29 MPG.
Somehow Hyundai has tuned these engines to achieve in road conditions that are illegal i most states (>55 MPH). High MPG is achievable if you drive above 60 for long periods of time.
When consumers read 40MPG or even 33 MPG, that should be the typical result for average driving and not require extraordinary driving technique.
My "average" usually hovers around 30mpg.
What is your source for the information you are sharing relative to Hyundai's tuning of the engines?
Here's the article about her win (and her website):
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=146245852
"Peters opted out of the class-action lawsuit so she could try to claim a larger damage award for her 2006 Honda Civic's failure to deliver the 50 mpg that was promised. The proposed class-action settlement would give aggrieved owners $100 to $200 each and a $1,000 credit toward the purchase of a new car. Peters had hoped to inspire a flood of small-claims lawsuits by the other 200,000 people whose Honda Civic hybrids are covered by the proposed settlement. ... The commissioner noted that Honda had argued the way a car is driven might affect its gas mileage. He said that should have been explained in advertising and elsewhere. A
Honda technical expert testified that the company was required to post a sticker with the Environmental Protection Agency's estimate of the highest mileage the car could get. But [judge] said in his ruling that "this does not seem to be the case." "Honda's own testing should be the guideline for how it advertises its vehicles' mileages, not the generalized work ... done by the EPA," he said. "Can a Honda hybrid driven in careful and tested ways achieve 50 mpg? No doubt. Did it happen with Peters' car? No."
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Many years ago as a 25-year-old whippersnapper I took a large insurance company to small claims court regarding a claim that they said was covered under my policy's collision coverage (with a high deductible) vs. comprehensive coverage (with a very low deductible). I thought I had strong grounds based on basic contract law to win. And I did... in small claims court. The insurance company appealed to the "real" court. Where there are real attorneys. I represented myself (which makes me, what is that again?). Guess who won that one?
Afterwards, the attorney for the insurance company told me he could understand my position. Also, the judge ruled that the insurance company could recover its legal fees from me if they wished. They declined to do that, even though it must have cost them some bucks for the attorney.
Consequently, I still have my home and auto insurance with that company today. Even though I disagreed with them on the wording of their policy (which btw changed not that long after this case... hmmm....), I appreciated how they handled the matter.
Popular Mechanics tested the Elantra and they achieved close to 50 MPG on Highway and 35 in the City in real world driving conditions. I have been achieving 40 or above on my Elantra and in the low 30's city driving. This article backs it up.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f24916b/199#MSG199
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- How long have you owned each car?
- How many miles do you have on each car?
- Are you relying entirely on the onboard computer for your mpg results?
- Have you also calculated your FE using the actual fuel used for the miles actually driven? (If so,how does that result compare to computer?)
- What is the average mph according to the computer before your fill ups?
- Are you using the same fuel for both cars (ethanol or not)?
- What kind of driving are you doing and what percentage of time & miles are you spending on the kind of driving (city, suburb, highway)?
Believe the Elantra's combined EPA rating is about 33, so you're nearly achieving it. What is the highway EPA estimate for your Cruze ECO?
Initially, I got the 48 MPG on the highway, and a good 30 MPG in the city. I was understandably ecstatic. But, after I brought my Accent back to the dealer for the free oil change (@ 5,000 miles) I found that my gas mileage dropped precipitously. I don't want to sound paranoid or anything, but it['s weird that right after this my MPG fell. I get about 24 to 26 MPG in the city, and low 30s on the highway. There's not much I can do, it still gets way better mileage than my former car (1989 Chevrolet Caprice), but I feel a bit disappointed, even cheated, by the sudden fall in MPG. That is, I know that the 30 MPG city/40 MPG highway is really the extreme that's possible (and a bit of permitted marketing for Hyundai, per our laws), but I couldn't see myself suing Hyundai over this. In addition, based on my personal driving experience, I'm not seeing that my MPG "gets better" as I drive more miles. I personally find this claim by many people to be suspect. I also have a hard time believing the trip computer that I always have set to display the MPG.
25 MPG city/low 30s on the highway is still good, even for a 2012 Hyundai Accent, yes? And has anyone else come to not believe their trip computer? I would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks. John V. Karavitis
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0bf2d1/
and right above the discussion list, there's a link that says "add discussion." You are welcome to start one for 2012 Accent MPG if you like.
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