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BMW 3-series vs Lexus IS
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Comments
Naah, I wont let that one go.
Methinks that you are just trying to "save face".
And a stick may have something to do with sport sedans like the IS and the 3 series, dont you think?
A piece of cake, eh? If only our elevators could work with foot taps. I think Lexus invented a great alternative to buttons :sick:
>Never said that. I had a manual once, for cost reasons
To quote you: "Goes to show that manual tranny is more about the driver's self-image than about vehicle characteristics."
So which is it, then?
I'll give you about 6 good reasons we got a 1996 Trooper with a 5-speed:
(1) Initial cost - Saved $1,000 over a crappy slushbox.
(2) Potential maintenance and repairs - none were required, but automatic repalcements were $1,500 more than a clutch replacement.
(3) Gas mileage - An extra 1 mpg city, 2 highway.
(4) Acceleration - with the 5 speed, the 4,500 lb Trooper was slow, with the automatic, it was ridiculously slow.
(5) Snow/Mud performance - My hometown gets 100+ inches a year. My wife's 80+ inches. DC a lot less. But we pulled a neighbors Grand Cherokee after it got stuck and could only spin it's wheels, even with anti-slip differentials. I rocked that Trooper out of snow and mud that would bog down any automatic, including our MDX.
(6) Ability - My wife CAN chew bubble gum and walk at the same time. And given the 5 advantages above, wasn't afraid to.
"Factual correction: this is also the same company that made GS, Supra, Celica, MR2 . . . seriously, when is BMW ever going to sell a mid-engined "real sports car" "
Yes, and I even owned one of those Supras. But check your calander. It's 2006 and Toyota/Lexus punted that entire sports car / coupe segment many years ago because, in spite of your belief that they are conquering the globe, they got their butt handed to them as they became too lazy or stupid to keep up with the competition.
The last MR2 - yeah that was the mid-engined "real sports car" that everyone should target. :confuse: Even my 7 year old would be embarassed to be caught in that joke.
The Avalon is not a bad car at all. I have the rest of my life ahead of me, so even if I were to choose a car that "real enthusiasts" shunned - God knows that real enthusiasts can't have a car that can't hang with a Ferrari - my days of driving fun aren't over.
It is all about preference and compromises made. Only a real snob would refuse driving or scoff at an Avalon. The reason why I keep on comming back to the IS 350 is that it has the perfect blend of speed, agility, luxury, style, safety, and size that I want, not need. The IS 350 is not without flaw though; a switch to turn VDIM off would make things a little easier.
Anyways, back to what you said...
"Mike Giller can you recall those days?"
Why, are those supposed to be "dark days"?
Why editors would test vehicle with VDIM off, it is not offered to the public and Toyota definatly think that it should not be off, for whatever reason? They might as well reprogram computer in each car, very simple procedure, to increase power or make some other simple modifications to increase performance in both cars. What they did is tested two sportiest cars from each line, BMW offered manual and Lexus could not, wait they could IS250 but decided to go with 350.
There got to be a reason as why VDIM cannot be shut offand I happened to think the answer is simple. The chassis cannot handle the power of the engine. Ofcourse they could offer redisigned suspention but this will push the price up and IS350 expensive as it is, for a LEXUS. When it comes to performance HP is not everything especially if nanny will not allow you to use it, IS is fester 0-60 though:)
I have a friend who bought the new Avalon and loves his new Avalon. And despite this we are still friends
Here is my shocking confession:
If the IS350 had a stick and a VDIM button I would definitely have visited my local Lexus dealer.
Up to now I have not found a satisfactory car that excites me greatly enough to buy a new one and that includes models from that famous German marque with 3 initials.
I am dumbfounded by your simple answer!
Let's have a poll: Does anybody else think that this is really that simple?
I, personally, think that it would take an engineer to make that sort of judgement call with some sort of evidence besides a theory.
Like I said: Dumbfounded.
dewey: You are complicated!
:P
It was in reference to that specific manual preference, for Trooper and more importantly the desire to have it in MDX . . .
Methinks that you are just trying to "save face".
So you couldn't even keep to your own words about being out. Me saving face? At least I'm not trying to hang my intellectual integrity on a "maybe."
Those who can not even handle two taps on the foot brake while holding down the brake pedal with the other foot while the car is parked probably are not experts at fancy foot work with three pedals anyway (heel-toe in fast corners etc.); therefore, it is probably be reasonable marketting decision to let VDIM prevent them from killing themselves.
Speaking of electronic nannies, wasn't BMW the one pioneered the "mess" with Continental-Teves and brought us the alphabetic soup of AST-C and VDC? None of those systems can/could be entirely turned off once it is in placed between your brake pedal and the brake pads.
(1) Initial cost - Saved $1,000 over a crappy slushbox.
That may have been the case with the ancient Trooper, but does not make any sense with the desire for manual MDX.
(2) Potential maintenance and repairs - none were required, but automatic repalcements were $1,500 more than a clutch replacement.
Manual clutches don't exactly last long on those heavy vehicles. That's why many heavy vehicle makers, from GM to MB to Mitsu only offer automatics.
(3) Gas mileage - An extra 1 mpg city, 2 highway.
Marginal difference.
(4) Acceleration - with the 5 speed, the 4,500 lb Trooper was slow, with the automatic, it was ridiculously slow.
But doesn't make sense for MDX either.
(5) Snow/Mud performance - My hometown gets 100+ inches a year. My wife's 80+ inches. DC a lot less. But we pulled a neighbors Grand Cherokee after it got stuck and could only spin it's wheels, even with anti-slip differentials. I rocked that Trooper out of snow and mud that would bog down any automatic, including our MDX.
Here is where the "electronic nanny" traction control and electronicly controlled TOD really help a lot.
(6) Ability - My wife CAN chew bubble gum and walk at the same time. And given the 5 advantages above, wasn't afraid to.
Bingo, that's the real reason: just to show them how capable she is.
Yes, and I even owned one of those Supras. But check your calander. It's 2006 and Toyota/Lexus punted that entire sports car / coupe segment many years ago because, in spite of your belief that they are conquering the globe, they got their butt handed to them as they became too lazy or stupid to keep up with the competition.
Check your own calendar . . . some people are now marvelling at the 306hp output from the 3L turbo that BMW is releasing this month . . . the ancient Supra 3L turbo made 320hp over a decade ago. In case you did not realize, the sports car / coupe market has been dead in the last few years, thanks to the desire for safety and panache . . . Any carmaker that went whole hog for sports car / coupe market faces eminent extinction. Even Porsche is has been making SUV's for a couple years now, while Mitsu is a walking zombie despite Eclipse having practically dominated the non-luxury import sport coupe market in unit sales for nearly a decade. The market segment is simply dead, and superseded by entry-luxury sedans with sporty pretensions.
A 1994 Supra Turbo also had an MSRP of 44,100 (plus options). I’m not sure what 44K+ from 12 years ago equates to today but if this little time warp game were to continue I would venture to say the new 3 series turbo would be cheaper (and better in every way). If the 12 year old engine was so great, why didn’t they just transplant it into the IS we all know the answer it’s a silly game
You think so? Seven years ago (at 40) she ran the Marine Corp. Marathon 5 months after a C-section and beat the time she last ran it at the age of 25. Last year, she beat that time at the Boston Marathon. Driving a manual transmission may be a challenge for you (and/or your wife if you have one), but it is hardly something my wife would consider a badge of accomplishment.
You have ir-rationalized every reason in the world why we should all be driving automatic transmissions. So I have to agree, the electronic nanny-ized, slushbox IS350 was made just for you. You can try to hide you inexperience, inability or just lazyness behind the 306 hp engine. But be forewarned, if you ever grow up and get bored of stomping your foot on the gas and want to actually learn how to really drive a "sports sedan", don't apply to Skip Barber driving school. They don't teach on automatics. Take it up with them as to why. :confuse:
Yes, the $50k+ 1996 Supra TT had 320 horsepower. And, other than in a straight line at the Bonneville Salt Flats, a $33k 240 hp 2006 Honda S2000 will outperform it on any track or on any set of real roads that aren't lined with stoplights. The behemoth Supra, perhaps good for it's day, had all of the finesse and balance of a sledgehammer. The S2000 was a surgeon's scalpel by comparison. My opinion/experience from having owned both.
In case you did not realize, the sports car / coupe market has been dead in the last few years, thanks to the desire for safety and panache . . . Any carmaker that went whole hog for sports car / coupe market faces eminent extinction.
No, I guess as I stood in line to write a check for a 997 I hadn't noticed that. And, I guess you didn't notice that in spite of near invoice pricing on the Cayenne, Porsche is still selling enough 911's and Boxsters at close to full MSRP to be the most profitable car company on the planet. Extinction?
The bottom line for me is that Toyoyta/Lexus' resume for building a competitive "sport" anything - sedan, coupe or sports car - is weathered, old, and tarnished. And if they still have any engineers left with a real passion for designing such a car, they must have been out to lunch when the slushbox transmission decision was made.
However, I have to chuckle at this automatic vs. manual debate. I have a 2003 M5, one of my business partners has a 2002 E55. Our discussions are a lot more civil than the ones in this forum, but after talking about how powerful the E55 engine is and how great AMG automatics are, it only takes a beer or two to get him to confess he wishes his wife could/would learn to drive a stick.
And it was U.S. BMW enthusiasts, not content with a 7-speed SMG matched to the new M5's 504 hp V10 that forced BMW to offer a manual 6-speed alternative. It's almost sure to be a tick slower than the 4.3 second 0-60 "launch assisted" SMG, but winning drag races has never been been what BMW was about.
My guess is that Lexus will intorduce a 6-speed version of the IS350 within a year and make it into a media event. No one can deny that they are experts at marketing, if not performance engineering.
I'm not saying I agree with the fact that VDIM shouldn't have a shutoff, but it's not an I-S - only problem.
If Lexus wants to keep it on at ALL times, at least give it a track/competition mode that won't intervene until SERIOUS loss of control.
I am sure with a little digging you can find a BMW parts forum.
You can find dedicated BMW discussions on any model by using the make/model search on the left. It would be better to ask in one of those than in a discussion whose specific purpose is as a comparo.
Drop me an email if you need more help finding the best place for your questions - pat AT edmunds.com.
Welcome!
There aren't many Gillers out there, but we both share the same name.
He now lives in Boston.
What is the OCA? Ontario Chiropractic Association?
Comparing a S2000 to a Supra Turbo is like comparing a Miata to an M3 Convertible. It's apples and oranges,
As far as I know, the S2000 is the best convertible sports car thia side of a $50k 'Vette.
The 1993 Supra Turbo (Started at $37,995) WAS A JAPANESE 'VETTE! It was the best sports car of it's time, better than ZR-1, outhandled RX-7, overpowered 300ZX, better value than NSX, and could beat them all in lap times on any track, as has been borne out in many magazine comparisons.
Someone said Toyota didn't make the chassis strong enough to handle 300+ HP and a MT? Stop trollin'!
MOST Supras still on the road have been heavily modified, with 500+HP (up to 900+) with the stock tranny! Clutch upgraded.
Toyota CAN DO anything. They have nothing to prove. They already built the best sports car.
Question is what will they do next?
DrFill
"Toyota CAN DO anything"
So can BMW and they've already done it, you just have to pay for it. There's something called core competency. Stray too far and you end up like GM. BMWs core competency is entry level and luxury level sports sedans. Toyotas core competency is applicances and luxury sedans.
HP isn't everything cause you can never win the war. At the end of the day you have to decide what is most important.
" Someone said Toyota didn't make the chassis strong enough to handle 300+ HP and a MT? Stop trollin'!"
This comment was not about the TT Supra, but about the IS 350 with 306 hp. The poster said that the VDIM was there because the chassis cannot handle the hp.
Now DrFill, Ready! Set! Go!
The Supra chassis proves that Toyota can build as great a sports car as they desire to make. The Supra was the best, period.
Toyota doesn't like sports cars anymore, probably because they spent a ton making the Supra the best, and it was too expensive, and was ahead of Toyota's growth curve.
With Toyota's growth since '93, the Supra would be much better recieved now, if they keep the price near 350Z.
350Z sells 40k a year, and isn't half the car the 1993 Supra was!
Right car, wrong timing.
DrFill
What I mean, is that the fact that a company like Toyota can create a TT Supra with a stiff chassis has nothing to do really with whether they decided to implement it or not in the IS 350.
Personally, I believe that they did implement their engineering skills into that chassis! The part that I am struggling with is people with zero knowledge saying that because there is no mainstream off-switch, it simply, in their words, means that the chassis cannot handle the torsion.
Bogus, Right?
Just for fun, how do you guys think this looks?
Not bad...but not as good as a G35 coupe.
Thank you for further proving my point with more of your bragging. BTW, I did not now the Marine Corp Commandant was a 40-yr old woman seven years ago. I'm sure she really appreciates a husband that stands up for her "BS speculating" another person's experience.
You have ir-rationalized every reason in the world why we should all be driving automatic transmissions.
Never said everyone should be driving an automatic . . . merely pointing out the obvious that manual is not a prequalifier for anything . . . nor is it even correlated to sportiness, as your manual Trooper amply proved.
So I have to agree, the electronic nanny-ized, slushbox IS350 was made just for you
In case you did not realize, BMW has been at the forefront of pushing electronic nannies for over a decade, since the days of the first AST-C and DSC. Having seen many BMW's running off the road here in the snow belt, I think BMW was very astute to be at the forefront of making safer cars.
But be forewarned, if you ever grow up and get bored of stomping your foot on the gas and want to actually learn how to really drive a "sports sedan", don't apply to Skip Barber driving school. They don't teach on automatics. Take it up with them as to why
What the heck does Skp Barber have to do with sports sedans anyway? Most of their halo cars are sport coupes. Sedans are compromise choices to begin with. So why is your rational necessarily superior to mine? Considering that some 80-90% of all sport sedans are purchased with automatics, and with electronic nannies since circa 1996, when BMW introduced DSC . . . and probably less than 0.1% of all sports sedan buyers ever went to Skip Barber school of whatever, sports sedans, Lexus or BMW, are more made for guys like me than you, just to borrow some of your obnoxiousness. Of course, personally, I don't mind your personal pursuit of pure sports car experience in pseudo-luxury sports sedans; your money, your business. Just don't lable the other 80-90% of the sports sedan market "inexprience, inability or . . . lazyness"
That's funny... I thought that's what you'd call guys who own over the top sport cars.
In any case, saw the new IS350 at the dealer while waiting for 60K service. It's a handsome vehicle inside and out. However, I would never buy this car with MT even if the option were available. Toronto traffic is just too ugly for it, unless one takes public transportations during those rush hours...
:P
Seems unfair to me
Back to the topic, when I was shopping for my GS, I looked at BMW 3/5 series and Lexus IS/GS, one of the things that turned me off from BMW is the cost to insure the vehicle. A 328 was about $500/yr more to insure than the GS430. I bought the GS because it has more power with a much nicer interior than the IS300; it would have been a no brainer if the IS350 were available.
CR's Japanese bias...
Maybe they haven't had experience with the e90 yet.
I didn't know that '3' buyer's care about reliability and CR anyways..
And Yes I am a "3 buyer" and I DO care about reliability of my next car. Maybe that just me. :confuse:
I agree, it does sound strange, but I don't know if it has anything to do with bias; bias would be rating it poorly. If it doesn't have a rating yet, I would say that they didn't make a deadline for finding it out before the data had to be published in the report; that's what I think had happened.
I would like the 3 a whole lot more if I didn't like the IS so much.
I would like the IS a whole lot more if the fricking interior wasn't so small
I think the IS interior is perfectly cozy. It gives me a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling all over.
Majority of vehicles on the road today have traction and/or stability control systems but the one in IS is the most intrusive in this segment , by far. BMW also have a nany but you can almost push the car to the limit before it would interfere, plus you can shut it off.
I had a few minutes between meetings yesterday, so I stopped into a Borders Books and picked up a current copy of Road and Track. From their "Road Test Summary", some interesting 0-60 stats:
330i: 6.4 sec (vs. BMW claim of 6.5)
IS350: 6.0 sec (vs. Lexus claim of 5.5?)
545i: 5.3 sec (vs. BMW claim of 5.6)
M3: 4.8 sec (vs. BMW claim of 4.9)
M5: 4.1 sec (vs. BMW claim of 4.5)
911S: 3.9 sec (vs. Porsche claim of 4.6)
As you can see from above, in the hands of the same road testers, all of the BMW's match or significantly beat the manufacturers claims. The Porsche is in boni-fide super car territory compared to it's relatively modest claim. Only the Lexus falls well short. Given that it (claims) to have 51 hp more than the 330i and only 27 less than the M3, it is the clear underachiever of the group.
What I think is particularly funny, is that high end BMW's and Porsches are generally not bought by boy racer kids that are looking at 0-60 as the holy grail. I'm not even sure of what that stat is for my 2003 M5. Yet Lexus apparantly thinks that 0-60 is so important to its buyers as to overstate its performance by a embarassingly large amount. What does that tell you about Lexus? about its target market?
I suspect that somewhere out there, some road test was done that supports Lexus claim. But after checking out every magazine on the rack, I didn't find it. And the slowest times I found for the 330i was 6.4 (and for the 911S was 4.4).
I think Lexus should take a course in modesty when it comes to tooting their own horn. Puffery doesn't make for a good heritage when it comes to performance cars, even if it does appeal to boy racers. Fortunately, my goddaughter isn't one.