What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

gmfan · December 2005

Saturn, a division of GM, is already working on this. Honda builds the engine on the new VUE Redline.

2zmax · December 2005

Actually, Saturn puts Hondas 3.5L V6 in all their Saturn VUE, V6, both AWD and FWD.
During my last trip Ive rented a Red VUE with V6, FWD.
It was awesome.
The inside is very nice, the best GM Ive ever seen. The ride is nice and quiet.
The engine is very strong and refined.
It drives like a car, and handles well.
The power is GREAT.
I am thinking of buying one.
The only complaint I have is: why did they put the intake manifold to the right and the intake and the filter box in the left. This makes the intake hose make a loop, and that is so stupid and inefficient. They should have put a Ram Air type intake on it with a straight hose and that would have given it at least 20 HP more.
Otherwise it is a great little SUV.

dhanley · December 2005

"I just thought of. I wonder if one reason that Japanese cars might often go longer is because they tend to hold their value better? "

I think if you reverse that sentence, you've got it right.

dhanley · December 2005

"As for a regular car, I couldn't go wrong with a Buick. They are extremely durable and long-lasting. My first car, a 1968 Buick, took me through high school and college,"

Now, do you think GM has precisely the same engineers and cars as in 1968?

If i go into a dealership _today_ and compare a chevy to a toyota/vw is your 1968 car relevant?

dave

mcbuckster · December 2005

lemko, you may be willing pay more for US products, unfortunatley most people wont, just go to a walmart sometime. people will drive to another city to save 45 cents on a pair of socks. If most consumers thought like you the marketplace would take care of itself, businesses would make products here, charge a higher price, and outsell their competition. People will say what you've said - but then they will always buy the less expensive option. sad but true.

gmfan · December 2005

Glad to hear you liked the VUE. I would also consider buying one. My wife had a 1993 Saturn and it was a phenominal vehicle. We got rid of it and when it had 212,000 miles after it quit passing emissions. We sold it to parents buying it for their sixteen year old, and guess what, they called a few days after buying it and said a bad O2 sensor was causing it to flunk emissions. No big deal and said it was fixed for $135. I bet that little car is still running today.

rumc3 · December 2005

In my experience, Detroit iron uses cheap parts a lot...so that the bean counters can say: "hey boss, we saved you money so now you look good this quarter, and maybe give us a raise???..." It's exactly the kind of short-term thinking that's gotten too many American companies into trouble. Auto companies should be thinking "quality," and whatever it takes to get it, NOT just 'who can make this part the cheapest..."

I rented an Escort a few years ago...what a piece of crap...the seat was incredibly uncomfortable...there wasn't even a gas cap release! Anyone could walk by and open it up! How cheap is that?

I've owned a Chrysler product in the 80's, and once was enough, thank you.

now, strictly Subaru and Toyota.

Maybe too many people with my experiences with American cars are why Consumer Reports is "biased."

lemko · December 2005

I wish GM had the same stylists and types of cars they had in 1968. Nothing made by anybody today is as awesome as what they had in 1968! It truly was a banner year for American automobiles! Ford and Chrysler are trying to bring back a little of that glory. I'd like to see a hot Malibu SS or retro Camaro.

Thing is, it wasn't just my 1968 Buick that was great. My 1979 Buick Park Avenue was great, my 1988 Buick Park Avenue is still great and my girlfriend's 2005 Buick LaCrosse is great! The Buick dealer doesn't have to 'sell' me on Buick! I can walk in there and buy a Buick with the same confidence you might a Camry or Accord.

lemko · December 2005

I've owned a Chrysler product in the 80's, and once was all that was necessary! Heck, I could still be driving that car today if I didn't sell it to my brother! That 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue was one of the best cars I've ever owned! That baby is still soldiering on!

1487 · December 2005

please reread my post, I said Toyota and HOnda dont lead in much of anything. I did say they are leader in hybrid technology at this point in time. Please point out some other areas where they are clear leaders. It wont be safety, performance, interior innovation, or any other category I can think of. Tight panel gaps isnt a sign of innovation, that is simply a matter of design, assembly and quality control. Everyone has great build quality these days. Even Hyundai.

1487 · December 2005

I wonder how long the memory of bad domestics will keep some buyers away from their products. Import lovers get mad when people talk about the fact that they dont like cars from Japan and Germany because they were against us in WW2. Import people will say that is irrelevant and ancient history and yet they will gladly repeat horror stories about american cars from 1985 (or 1975) and use that as justification for why they will never consider a domestic car. Perhaps when those cars are ancient history like WW2 people will change their minds.

The bottom line is that there is little the Big 2.5 can do to convince die hard domestic car haters to consider their products. If they add discounts to make the pricing more attractive they get criticized. If they add hp they get criticized for not focusing on fuel economy. If they improve their interiors they get criticized for poor materials even if the design is great. If they add a V8 they get criticized because Honda can get almost as much hp out of a V6. I dont see why some people insist on trying to justify the fact that they have no desire to buy anything that isnt Asian. If that is your preference that is fine, but its silly to act like your decision is based strictly on facts and figures. Over the last decade or so the domestics have improved quality, safety, interior design, engine output, productivity and feature content to the point where IN GENERAL (there are exceptions) they are on par with comparable imports and yet many people are still talking about the bad tranny on their 1987 Olds. The big 2.5 need to make more progress on hybrids and in GM's case more 5 and 6 speed autos are required, but beyond that there isnt much more to do to be equivalent to Toyota and Honda. resale value cant be built overnight so those seeking high residuals will continue to buy imports.

gtee · December 2005

Japanies are not leaders in anything? Are you kidding. How about they are leaders in Customer satisfaction. How about they are leaders quality control. In case you missed it that is what most people want. They want quality automobiles at reasonable prices. That is what Japanies build. That is why people in droves go a buy their products. Japanies companies stand behind their products unlike American companies. Japanies car companies understand the idea of "Satisfaction Guaranteed."

You know what American car companies are leaders in? How about creating a new Fire Sales. What innovation will GM and Ford come up with after the Employee Discount. Hey I got an idea, How about "BUY ONE, GET ONE FREE" sale.

carlisimo · December 2005

Interior innovation. The Civic's interior is risky (might not take off), but I bet we'll see that pattern in increasing use. The Prius did it first, so Toyota and Honda are both hand-in-hand this time.

Then there's mileage in non-hybrids. 40mph with 140hp... that alone will sell a lot of Civics.

Honda's the leader in greenery. Generally high mileage per segment, but what they are more unique in is their low emissions scores across the board.

But those might not be all that important to you. The fact that Honda's sales have been increasing for 12 straight years might be. If they can sell cars that a lot of people think are ugly, they must be doing something right.

fljoslin · December 2005

Many arguments have been made in this discussion topic.
The bottom line is that if you believe that capitalism is alive and well in the country, as I do, then the best products will win and lesser ones will die out. People exercise their free will to choose the vehicles that they want and no amount of whining or crying will change that. It is the job of the auto makers to give the people what they want. In my case, sometimes that is a big 2.5 product (mostly 0.5) and sometimes an import. Competition is wonderful unless you can not compete and certainly the public benefits.

kdhspyder · December 2005

Please point out some other areas where they are clear leaders

Marketing, marketing, marketing.

As good as the bland bread and butter vehicles are that form the basis of HonYotaNiss's sales the marketing is probably even better than the vehicles.

Consider:
Did any of the 3 here realize that there were over 100000 highly-educated, well-to-do buyers annually for an odd-looking, vehicle with off the wall technology? The Big 2 +C were busy with trucks so they missed this little segment. At full sticker price. This is a to-kill-for demographic segment.

Did the Big 2 +C misunderstand or not even see that 80% of the US market for appliance sedans only want 4c bulletproof people movers. Affordability and reliability are of much more importance than performance or handling.

How in the world does Scion sell nearly 150000 units a year with a 'toaster' a 'bug' and one cool sport model? At full sticker.

What if the new Yaris/FIT just grabbed ALL the first-time and economy-minded young buyers in the US?

How does HonYota keep improving on the Ody/Sienna squeezing out GM and prolly Ford shortly.

Toyota and Nissan produce diesel trucks all over the world. What if the bulk of the new Tundras and Titans utilize all that expertise and start eating into the Big Rig profit center of the Big 2 +C? The combo of power and fuel economy could be the next marketing coup. What about a 30 mpg truck bigger and more powerful than any Ram/150/Silverado-Sierra on the road? What is being cooked up in San Antonio?

The small-truck segment has passed already to Toyota and Nissan.c.f. Edmunds comparo's. Only the Dakota is a viable challenger to either of these two.

Give the market what it wants, keep it fresh and buyers and profits will come in due time.

kdhspyder · December 2005

Further to the foregoing post, I do actually do agree with 1487 that all manufactures now are roughly equal in quality until proven otherwise. The errors of the 80's are in the past. SPC, better parts from SPC knowledgable subcontracors and better materials give all automakers a higher build quality than in the earlier 20 years.

It would be a shame if the benefits of having very solid competitive vehicles were to be lost to panic and lack of depth on the commercial side.

jae5 · December 2005

Give the market what it wants, keep it fresh and buyers and profits will come in due time.

True.

I think this is where the "domestics" - particularly GM & Ford - miss the boat, though Ford has some hits. It seems that GM really doesn't have a marketing strategy for it's vehicles, or know/understand the market, just pumping in new-name replacements for bad-memory cars without presenting the vechicles as being better, more refined, improved ergonomics, more standard features. It's kind of like "here's something new, take it". It seems their message is kind of muddled.

For example, the G6 and the Cobalt are obviously to you and me replacements for the Grand Am and Cavalier. But yet half the time they're presented as that, while the other half they're presented as totally new, fresh, not replacements for the previous vehicles. What are they really? And when the cars are intro'd they are not the segment busters they need to be, but "almost" competitors.

Then Ford is trying to present itself as the "green" domestic, focusing on hybrids, but is bringing out the Expedition EL and Navigator L, longer versions of the vehicles. So the public could perceive that as while they're big on hybrids, they are still churning out gas-guzzling hogs?? :confuse:

blueguydotcom · December 2005

I've explained it already. Look at the Infiniti G35 and original Lexus LS400 for how to penetrate a market:

Better product
Better standard content
Better or as good performance
Good resale
Lower MSRP when matched for content.

When the Big 3 price at the same level as Japanese competitors they're out of the game immediately. They need to price 3-8k (depending on segment) lower than the Japanese/euro competition while giving users cars that are better for the money.

As it stand now if one buys a lincoln zephyr at 35k loaded, that buyer is going to be looking at huge depreciation vis-a-vis the euro/japanese competition. Incentives and rebates from Ford will ensure this! If Ford priced the car at 30k fully loaded then people would see VALUE in the Zephyr. They'd realistically get the car at 27k (no rebates) and thus save a good 5-6k v. the lexus/acura/etc.

gtee · December 2005

The bottom line is that there is little the Big 2.5 can do to convince die hard domestic car haters to consider their products.

You know I take offense to that comment. I was true blue Ford Man. I grew up in Detroit and drove nothing but domestic cars. My experience with GM car was horrible. So I switched to Ford cars and trucks and IMO they were much much better then GM cars. I owned a 1986 Ford Escort, 1988 Old Cutlass, 1994 Ford Thunderbird, 1997 Ford Expedition, 2003 Ford Expedition. Until the 2003 Expedition Ford products were fine, but the 2003 Expedition was a lemon. I had many problems with this truck. Air Cond compressor had to be replaced, rear axle is new, wind noise, tire noise, rattles, power steering problems.

Don't tell me that people talk about 1987 Olds. I am talking about a 2003 Ford purchased new. I feel like I purchased a prototype and not a finished truck ready for consumers. I am sick and tired of reading posts about people who don't buy domestics as being not patriotic. How about some posts about American car companies being not patriotic. To me its much more unpatriotic for an American company to produce an inferior product. And yes now I drive a Honda Odyssey. I drive Honda not for any great love of Honda, but because Ford forced me to buy a product that I would feel safe for my family.

Sometimes I have a feeling that there are two types of people on this thread:

1) Normal consumers who switched from Domestics to Imports because of problems.
2) People who work and live in Detroit.

rodut · December 2005

What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

Just one word:
RELIABILITY !!!

NOW, and for the next 15 YEARS !!! See 1989 Volvo 240 wagons reliability. Copy the damn thing !

lemko · December 2005

Yeah, the same kind of reliability I got from my 1989 Cadillac Brougham and all my other GM cars.

imidazol97 · December 2005

Someone said that American companies use cheap parts in their cars--I won't take time to find the post...

Those same cheap parts, in some cases, are being used in your wonderful foreign brand cars. Check Delphi. I saw air compressors for Jaguar and Volve when I was in the Harrison plant making air conditioning compressors. My coworker never knew she had a GM 5V compressor powering her air conditioning in her Jaguar (years ago when they were Jaguars).

lemko · December 2005

Heck, BMWs and Rolls-Royces use GM Hydramatic transmissions!

townhome · December 2005

Could you please add a third type of person on this thread; Normal consumers who switched from imports to domestics because of problems.

I counted 4 Ford products in your history and 1 was bad. So you switched to Honda. Ok. My friend bought her first Honda (a new 2003 Accord) and had problems with it, the biggest of which was it needing new engine mounts at 15,000 (TSB issued). Since this was the third time it would need warranty repairs in the first year, should she swear off all and every Honda as bad vehicles, or is it possible she got a lemon? We are talking about machines here, and yes, they break -- all of them. Interestingly, she traded it in for a new Magnum this weekend. I personally went from a Toyota truck to a Ranger because the Toyota kept stalling, and no one seemed to know why. As I mentioned earlier, my Ranger has had 84,000 trouble-free miles.

Of course you are free to think all Fords are crap, just as my friend will probably never trust Honda again. But, I think this would be an enormous generalization and short-sighted of either of you.

On the other hand, I totally agree with you in thinking that it is the American car companies -- or rather their executives -- who are the true unpatriotic people here. They are the ones who don't redesign a product for 11 years (Ranger for example) while their Japanese competition goes through two complete redesign! Does this effect their pay? Absolutely not. Shame...........

(Oh, I am born and raised in Los Angeles and have no connection to Detroit, so I don't fit into type #2 either.)

tlong · December 2005

Import people will say that is irrelevant and ancient history and yet they will gladly repeat horror stories about american cars from 1985 (or 1975) and use that as justification for why they will never consider a domestic car. Perhaps when those cars are ancient history like WW2 people will change their minds.

I'll use my experience as an example.

1. Friend buys Vega in 1974, car rusts and engine goes at 55K. Horrible GM impression is established early on.
2. I buy my first new car, a 1985 VW Jetta. Comparable American car at the time is a Ford Topaz. I even look at one. Seat is flat. Headliner is peachfuzz. Engine is rough.
3. In 1992 I sell the Jetta with a trouble-free 143K miles on it. I buy my second new car - Honda Accord EX.
4. During the 1990's I drive many rentals. Cheap American interiors. Loud Thrashy engines.
5. In 1994 we need a minivan, as the kids are coming. We narrow choices down to Mercury Villager and Ford Windstar. Like the Windstar but it is new and unproven. Villager has a Nissan engine and transmission in it, so we trust it more. End up buying the Villager. Still driving it, 196K miles.
6. Brother buys 1995 Windstar. After a few years, transmission goes. Headgasket problems. Well known Ford problem, also affects Taurus.
7. Honda and Villager motor on, no problems.
8. I buy a 1998 Audi A4. We give the Honda to wife's parents with 100K miles on it.
9. Sell A4 in 2004 with 90K miles on it, buy Acura TL.
10. Drive 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee rental. Cheap interior. Thrashy engine. Poor ergonomics, space, and fuel economy.

I'd be happy to buy an American car. We bought the Villager, and guess what? It is the interior quality that was fairly poor, the mechanicals have been quite good.

I bought the Audi even though we knew it might be less reliable. But the car was buttery smooth - engine, shifting, braking - and handled excellently. Its interior was beautiful. I can't imagine any American car like that. If there was one I'd give it a try. But I don't know of any American car that exudes quality in the driving and interior as the Audi, or the TL, or the Accord. I don't like big cars. What would compete in this segment?:

- Grand Prix?
- Malibu?
- Focus?
- Cadillac?
- Maybe Fusion is getting close, haven't seen or driven one

After almost buying the Windstar, it is not unreasonable for us to think - wow, we almost got bitten in the as* by that American purchase - need to be extra careful next time...

hungarian83 · December 2005

I haven't been following this particular forum, so bear with me if this has already been stated, but the thing I have noticed the most is not the car company, but WHERE the car was produced.

I have had considerable experience driving many cars. This is just a short list of some of them:
1987 Accord (Japan) - Absolutely bulletproof, quality was perfect. FIRST repair (other than minor things like brake pads, light bulbs) was the radiator at 230,000 miles. I ended up selling the car at 260,000 miles. The quality was still flawless and the engine was perfect. Even went 13,000 miles without an oil change once.
2000 CR-V (Japan) - Extremely solid car. No repairs and it is at 90,000 miles. Not one single rattle or squeak.
2002 Civic (USA) - Well built, but has lots of rattles from inside the dashboard, and the rear defroster failed. No major repairs however.
1991 Corolla (USA) - Currently has 40,000 miles (garaged and driven very little in the first 10 years). So far the starter and alternator have failed. Ceiling upholstery is coming off, door handles, trunk opener have broken, window opener is messing up, factory speakers are a disaster, the driver's side door lock has failed. Oh, and the paint actually comes off when the car gets wet. The list goes on. This is a Toyota! Yes, they are minor issues, but I could have never even imagined these stupid little problems in my Japan-made Accord. Even some of the Honda technicians have openly admitted the major quality differences between the Japanese and US-built Hondas.

My next car will be the new Honda Fit coming in Spring 2006. One of the highlights that Honda has already publicly announced is that it will be made in Japan!

imidazol97 · December 2005

>End up buying the Villager. Still driving it, 196K miles.

Neighbors bought the Villager. Didn't have the same kind of longevity you had. May have been better than Windstar-agreed. I don't recall what they had to fix but there were some major repairs and maintenance needed.

rockylee · December 2005

You: You know what American car companies are leaders in? How about creating a new Fire Sales. What innovation will GM and Ford come up with after the Employee Discount. Hey I got an idea, How about "BUY ONE, GET ONE FREE" sale.

gtee: They have already done that gimmick down here. A Chevy dealership had a gooden. Buy a Chevy Tahoe or Suburban, get a Chevy Cavalier for free. :confuse:

Sadly your new incentive idea has already been done
by dealers down here. :P

Rocky

gmfan · December 2005

It's simple. Offer a 5yr/60K mi "bumper to bumper" warranty and a 5yr/100K mi drivetrain warranty. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken, but last time I checked the big Japanese players (Honda, Toyota, Nissan), only offer 3yr/36K mi warranties. I even think when we bought my wife's Lexus back in 2002, all that was offered was 3yr/36k mi "bumper to bumper" by Lexus. I remember being extremely agitated at Lexus because I felt they should have higher warranty for a $45,000 vehicle. Last time I checked, BMW, Audi, VW, Jag warranties were not any better. Good warranty = increased sales. I do not want to be scammed at the dealership buying an extended warranty for $1,500. Come on, the manufactuers need to automatcially include the warranty in the price of vehicle. HOWEVER, I do NOT think a higher warranty should be transferrable. I think that is fair and will solve the problem!!!

So what if some foreign manufacturers follow, the consumer will remember GM and Ford offered it first!!!

altair4 · December 2005

VW's is 4 year/50,000 miles. Audi's may be the same, but I'm not sure.

rockylee · December 2005

it is the same pal.

Rocky

rockylee · December 2005

WOW, did ya'll see the edmunds test on this cool vehicle ????

Rocky

gmfan · December 2005

Just read GM is increasing bumper to bumper warranty to 4 yr/50,000 miles on 2006 Buicks and Hummers, which is better than Toyota, Honda, and Nissan bumper to bumper warranties, and ties your German VW/Audi warranties. GM needs to do better and apply to ALL models, and hit the air waves!!!

snakeweasel · December 2005

Well Rocky not sure about you but in my opinion that is way to much power for that type of vehicle.

rockylee · December 2005

Well it worked for the short lived GMC Typhoon. I however respect DC for having enough "hair" and offer such a cool vehicle. If anything, I think they need to turbo it for a few more pony's :P

Rocky

newowner1 · December 2005

I agree, GM and Ford need to put the money where there mouth is. They claim better quality, then it should not cost them to up their warranty.

In addition, they need to market their cars better. They have been relying on this blue collar, patriotic American message for far too long (think Chevy), when the percentage of Americans fitting this bill has declined considerably. Not every American is white, blue collar, and lives in the heartland. In fact, whites are a minority in Cali. How about selling to those of us who are black, Hispanic, and Asian?

By the way, as many others have noted, the domestics have let us down in the past. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. That is the "domestic" problem. You need to alleviate the risk of the American buyer being fooled twice.

Here is my family's car experiences (notice the upward mobility by the way):

The 70s
Mom and dad: one car, the VW bug. Ah the romance.

The 80s (the buy mostly American period)
Dad: Chrysler Cordoba - engine failure
VW Rabbit - destroyed in a crash
Mercury Sable - transmission failure
Mom: Oldsmobile wagon - traded in after 6 years
Ford Taurus wagon - given to me after 5 years, no problems

Result: Ford and Chrysler let us down, GM did OK, VW needs to build safer cars.

The 90s (we go back to the homeland)
Honda Accord - no problems, traded in after 8 years
Nissan Maxima - given to my sister, no problems
2 Acura Legends - no problems, traded in after about 5 years each

Result: Japanese cars rule. No major repairs for a decade in four different cars.

The 2000s
Lexus 300? - no problems
Isuzu SUV - so forgetable that I cannot recall what it was.
MB M series - some electrical problesm which were fixed under warranty

Result: The Germans entice Daddy again. The autumn romance blooms.

Me:
1991 Honda Civic: no problems after 2 years, but crashed by my sister
1985 BMW 528e: lots of parts worn out (car was 10-20 years old), but I loved this car. It was built to last. You may notice these 5 series cars on the road - they are the only ones this old still on the road. First car to be named.
2005 Saab 9-2x (the Saabaru): no problems (yet). Sadly, I don't see this car much since my wife took it.
1997 Altima (my wife's car): now my car, some electrical problems.

reddogs · December 2005

Ford, GM and Chrysler made the Jeeps, Trucks, Tanks, Planes that kept the America safe from foreign tyrants such as Hitler with his [non-permissible content removed]'s, Mussolini with his Fascist's and turned the tide after the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor.

If we have all the manufacturing shift to oversees or under foreign control and they dont like what we decide as our foreign policy or at the United Nations, or what our Congress votes, they can cut us off at the knees. They can do like the French or other countires and go against us directly and in the international forums and pass laws to harass or intimidate directly Americans, or indirectly through trade and commerce.

If you think it could never happen, it already has, the Japanese kept back vital guidance system electronics from us because of political considerations. We already have seen how Oil can be used as a political weapon so what is the difference if productions of sensitive or vital goods that are manufactured in or by other countries is used as a political weapon.

It's our choice, do we hand over our manufacturing sector to foreign domination and depend on their benovolence, their politcal direction and their laws in a national emergency??

snakeweasel · December 2005

This I don't understand you say your parents had a Taurus wagon that they gave you after 5 years and had no problems then you say Ford let you down.

newowner1 · December 2005

Uh, the Mercury Sable broke down. 50% does not make a reliable car manufacturer.

snakeweasel · December 2005

Its just that the car and engine just don't match. A Jeep is not the type of vehicle to have such a performance engine.

rockylee · December 2005

And Range Rover is ????.....Did you see the Sport version of RR ??? I can see your point pal, but I do like the vehicle and respect DC for making it. Heck we just gotta test drive one and see for ourselves.

Rocky

lemmer · December 2005

That is probably what people said about the muscle cars in the '60s - a small/mid family sedan with weak brakes and handling is no place for a powerful engine.

rockylee · December 2005

Well thankfully the Jeep has Frisbee size brakes !

Rocky

lemmer · December 2005

I don't think I would buy one, but I think it is pretty cool.

It seems really "American" in a good way.

rockylee · December 2005

I can see exactly what you are talking about, and that's why I personally like it. I however wished it went a step further in interior technology and refinement. Regardless it will be a must have for many jeep buyers

Rocky

andre1969 · December 2005

is really nothing new. A few years ago, before the Hemi came out, Jeep offered a 360 Magnum in the Grand Cherokee, a beast that would launch it from 0-60 in around 7 seconds.

Just as long as the chassis, wheels, and brakes are upgraded accordingly. And in many cases they are. Many of those old musclcars were bad because you often had to purchase the non-engine upgrades separately. For example, as late as 1973 I think GM offered the GTO and other similar cars with 9.5" drums all around. Now a '73 GTO was down to like 230-250 hp, so it wasn't as brutal as something like a '69 Judge, but a 4000 lb car with a big block using drums that small just scares me. I had a '69 Dart with a slant six, 145 hp (110 net), that weighed just under 3,000 lb, and its brakes weren't much smaller...9" all around.

My '57 DeSoto has drums all around, and weighs about 4000 lb, but it has 12" drums, and also has dual wheel cylinders up front for more even distribution of the brakes. Chrysler was usually pretty good about brakes though. Often their midsized musclecars got full-sized copcar brakes, a sharp contrast from GM, which would put small Corvair brakes on their midsized musclecars! :surprise:

snakeweasel · December 2005

Can't say I ever saw a sport version of the RR. That being said the Jeep has a rather high center of gravity and has other SUV characteristics that means you have to be very careful with it if it can do 0-60 in under 5 seconds. Plus if you do any type of off roading you might have a difficult time with the high amount of HP.

blueguydotcom · December 2005

Paranoia.

bhw77 · December 2005

"Paranoia."
I don't think so - but this a wrong place to discuss it...

lemko · December 2005

The 1960s: Mom and Dad, one car:

1961 Chevrolet Biscayne - wrecked in an accident with a grocery delivery truck in 1970.

The 1970s: Mom and Dad, several cars:

1968 AMC Javelin - wrecked in accident in February 1974 when my Dad was on his way to work.

1970 Ford Torino two-door hardtop - wrecked by hit-and-run drunk driver in a 1972 Pontiac LeMans. The guy owned a local deli and paid for the accident out of his own pocket.

1965 Pontiac GTO convertible - Purchased by Dad on impulse. Good God, I loved this car! We kids loved riding around in it with the top down. Mom hated the car for she was afraid Dad was cruising for younger women in it! Dad caved into Mom and sold it for peanuts in 1976.

1972 Ford LTD Country Squire - a bad car. Dad was forever tinkering with this car and it rusted with a vengeance. One night Mom and Dad were all dressed-up to go out to dinner. The beast refused to start and Dad is out there in his good suit fumbling around under the hood while swearing so profusely, he'd make Joe Pesci in "Goodfellas" blush. Dad finally gave up and borrowed Grandpop's ultra-reliable 1974 Chevrolet Impala sedan.

1978 Ford Granada coupe - The 1972 Ford LTD was a gas pig and Dad was concerned about fuel economy following the 1973-74 fuel crisis. This car was much smaller and had a 250 cid inline six versus the huge 400 V-8 in the LTD. This car turned out to be rather trouble-free aside from an issue with the door windows. The beancounters at Ford thought it was a good idea to save money using cheap plastic brackets with the windows pop-riveted in place. In a few years, these brackets broke and the glass collapsed into the door unable to be raised. Ford owned-up to it and issued proper metal replacements for free. I learned to drive in this car. My younger brother wrecked it in 1984.

The 1980s: Mom, Dad, Bro, and myself all get cars:

1981 Ford Thunderbird Town Landau - a mediocre car with a puny 255 cid V-8 that generated more squeaks than thunder. Despite this, the car turned out to be rather trouble-free. It was passed to my sister, brother, and eventually ending up in my hands when my brother bought my 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue in 1993. I sold it for $400 in 1994 as it looked like it had gone through Hades and back.

1968 Buick Special Deluxe - my first car, purchased for $650 in August 1981 when I was 16. This car began my lifelong love affair with GM as it turned out to be an excellent car that was still running in 1992. I gave this car to my brother when I bought my second car when I was 19.

1979 Buick Electra Park Avenue - my second car, purchased in May 1984. It was a drop-dead gorgeous, ultra-reliable, very luxurious car that became the unfortunate victim of an accident outside Phoenixville, PA several years later. It was easily one of the best cars I've ever owned. I desperately miss it!

1987 Dodge Omni - Dad purchased this homely little car for Mom. We kids laughed at this ugly little flivver, but Mom cherished it. This car was cheap to buy, cheap to service, and cheap to repair. It could tackle harsh NE winters that would frighten many modern SUVs. Mom finally sold the car to some local kid after 17 years. He can still be seen driving it to this day! Omni truly did do it all!

1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic - this was my first new car. I purchased it a few days after graduating from college. I was out of the house and on my own after the purchase of this car. Two years and 62K trouble-free miles later, I replaced it with my 1989 Cadillac Brougham.

1989 Chrysler LeBaron coupe - Dad had passed the T-Bird to my siblings and replaced it with the LeBaron he bought after one test-drive. Apparently, the dealer offered him such a bargain, Dad couldn't pass it up. This car turned out to be rather trouble-free and was just as easy to maintain as my Mom's Omni. For a while, the family seemed to go through an unusual Mopar period. In addition to the Omni and LeBaron, I had my Chrysler Fifth Avenue and my sister later bought a 1987 LeBaron coupe. Anyway, Dad was able to tow a trailer with the LeBaron from NE Pennsylvania to Starkville, MS when my sister started college at Mississippi State. There was no plroblem despite the car's small 4-cylinder plant.

The 1990s: Mom, Dad, and Sis have cars:

1991 Ford Aerostar minivan. The LeBaron was too small, even for a shrinking family. Dad bought a new Aerostar van and took this vehicle through Hades and back. It later suffered a collapsed valve which Dad repaired. He offered to sell me the van a few years ago, but it would've just cluttered the street in front of my place as I have little use for a minivan.

1987 Chrysler LeBaron coupe - my sister's first car. I know little about this car as my sister was away at college most of the time she owned this car. The only thing I remember is that the headliner fell at some point and her boyfriend tried to put it back up with a spray adhesive that turned the gray fabric yellow! Yuck! My sister currently drives a huge 2003 Ford F-150 as she is a veterinarian for large animals.

1997 Mercury Mystique - it wasn't long before both my sister and brother were out of the house, on their own and married. The minivan was no longer necessary so Dad got this small white sedan. I recall him telling me he hads some issues with the OEM tires, but that was about it. Dad still drives this car as a beater.

The 2000s: Mom and Dad on their own:

2003 Subaru Outback - Once again Dad caves into pressure from Mom. Mom is a victim of Subaru's marketing as she loves actor Paul Hogan. I think she believes the "Crocodile Dundee" character is a real person. She once said, "If Crocodile Dundee can thunder through the Australian wilderness in that car, it must be good!" The car has had several issue with the brakes, something I noticed when I first drove the car after Dad purchased it. They were repaired under warranty and I believe the problem is now solved.

2004 Chevrolet Aveo - Mom finally retired the Omni. Dad knows this car is really a Daewoo Kalos, but it was dirt cheap. Mom has this thing for these tiny little cars I don't get. So far, I've heard of no problems.

What will it take for consumers to buy American brands??

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