Toyota on the mend?

ateixeira · December 2010

I love how when I come up with numbers the only responses are denial or a non-response. A month ago I proved manufacturers' sites had cheaper-than-Lexus leases, too.

That site had a Benz lease for $327 and Benz' own lease is $339, heck you can have the $12.

Mercedes has huge incentives to unload these. Deny all you want, but it's true.

crkyolfrt · December 2010

I know it's Toyota thread, but there are few guys here I think would have good feedback on a Hyundai XG350. Was this a reasonably competent car for its intended purpose? Was it a fuel hog, sloppy handling at the expense of soft ride? Dependable or trouble prone? Was it noisy, considering it was suppose to appeal to a more luxury expectation? Is the drivers seat comfortable and supportive for your 5'10" 200 lb'r? Enough foot room for size 12 winter boots? I have checked here but there isn't a lot of info on it. And what is is mostly from random posters that haven't been on the site since..

I know of a used one I am wondering might fit my purposes, online, but can't find one to sit in and check out in person. They seem to be pretty rare. Resale numbers suggest that they haven't held a strong dollar since the Genesis came out.

tlong · December 2010

I have an 07, which was better than the current Sienna, but more importantly had a real 2nd row middle seat, a full 20" wide. More comfortable than any Odyssey ever made, which has a half-sized seat (as does the 2011 Sienna, BTW).

That's true if you have an 8th person riding. I doubt most people do.

explorerx4 · December 2010

Like I said before, lease a car from that site for that money and I will agree with you.
I have leased cars before, have you?
Leasing is not always only about the monthly payment.

explorerx4 · December 2010

Like I said leasing is complicated.
The MERC is for 27 months. BMW an LEXUS for 36 months.
All average 10k per year mileage allowance.

328i Msrp 38,350, 0 Down, Monthly $439, Total Cash 15804, Buy out 23130
ES350 Msrp 37405, 3839 Down, Monthly $389, Total Cash 17843, Buy out 22105
C300 Msrp 38350, 3379 Down, Monthly $339, Total Cash 12532, Buy out 27229

explorerx4 · December 2010

ask them if they would do it again.

fintail · December 2010

It seems the rest of the world doesn't want a total iso-tank for their luxobarge. My E55 can be pretty harsh on the upcoming American second world quality roads too...but when I drive it hard, I remember why.

Does the Sonata sell on styling or value merits? I'd say the latter. Camry and Accord sell by the hundreds of thousands too, neither can be called inspiring in the styling department. Bread and butter sedans don't often sell on design.

Those Euro brands also nearly failed at home. Things sucked then, save for a handful of brands. Lack of dealer infrastructure in the US also did them in as much as crappy cars.

I don't know if MB quality really improved since Lexus came around. It was pretty awesome in the 1989 - fell apart due to Lexus pressure more than anything else...although it was rarely *that* bad. Now it is climbing back up, all while offering cars that drive better. However, I will thank Lexus for pricing pressure, lord knows what the cars would cost now without it. Genesis? I don't believe anyone cross shops it with a similar MB, even if someone said they did on TV. If I want an old 5er (which is what the Genesis mimics), I'll buy a used M5 for the same money.

explorerx4 · December 2010

I am more of a preservationist than a restorer. I enjoy new cars, but respect the old ones, too.
BTW, your Lexus is older than any car I have.

gagrice · December 2010

We drove the Lexus to church this morning. I told my wife we should sell it while it still runs good. Maybe to someone that wants to start a Lexus collection. It was one of the first ones sold in 1989. If it was a first year Lexus SUV I would not even consider selling it. I just hate crawling in and out of it. Or any other sedan for that matter. Too low to the ground for me.

anythngbutgm · December 2010

Perhaps he'd still rather have a rust-prone Windstar with an axle likely to break in half?

A Ford dealer by my work has about 100 of them lined up in the back lot due to the recall. Ford is quietly buying them back...

ateixeira · December 2010

feedback on a Hyundai XG350

I like newer Hyundais, but the XG is from before they really started improving. Output from the engine is ho-hum for its size (just 194hp), styling is dull, weight is higher than it should be, crash test performance was not good.

Hyundai has improved by leaps and bounds, but given how affordable they are, I'd stick with a much newer one.

ateixeira · December 2010

Even your numbers show how subsidized the Benz lease is.

ateixeira · December 2010

ask them if they would do it again.

We ARE doing it again, LOL.

June-July 2011. DC to NY, NY to DC, DC to Key West, and then back home.

Anyone familiar with Sanibel Island? We may stop there after Orlando.

:shades:

ateixeira · December 2010

the rest of the world doesn't want a total iso-tank for their luxobarge

Better roads, perhaps. Wouldn't be a surprise. But what about roads in BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China)? These are where future growth will come from, and the infrastructure is nothing like that of the EU, though many new roads may be better.

My E55 ...

I forget yours is an AMG, that explains a lot. To be fair, a new AMG E-class costs nearly $90 grand. That certainly puts your comparisons in to perspective.

Does the Sonata sell on styling or value merits?

I'd say both. Plus, the stretched lights look you dislike may have been started by Peugeot, and I see a hint of it in the C-class taillights.

crkyolfrt · December 2010

Thanks for this. I see that the older tech engine wasn't much of a stormer (which I am ok with) but it's also a bit of a gas hog, which I'm not crazy about. Price of admission helps sooth the weaknesses I guess.

I've never factored in crash worthiness before. I guess it's because I am a pretty defensive driver out of necessity to keep alive on two wheels also, but there is no question you are pretty vulnerable to a T Bone in an intersection. Some things are hard to avoid.

I guess my expectations in a replacement car are a difficult niche to fill. Some of the things I want ( a really good seat, and very quiet going down the road) are usually packaged with a lot of other technological sophistication that I would like to avoid if I could. I am no fan of auto dual climate control, or sunroofs, yet I do want seat heaters. I would like to have keyless entry (easily covered) but I don't even need pwr windows. In fact I prefer a manual wind up one that is more resistant to freezing in the winter. I know the pwr window thing I will have to endure as even the most basic cars come with those.

My only reason to replace my present car, a CRV, is to try to find a more comfortable seat. And almost anything is quieter going down the road than a Honda. I am even ready to give up AWD, to help with the fuel bills and help finance the good (great) seat I'm looking for. Volvo used to be known for their good seats, but I don't think I trust their dependability record as a vehicle. MBenz, BMW (and other high-enders) also have good seats but they are beyond my budget. And within reason, I don't want the complexity of a car I can't work on myself. I just learned that some of these cars don't even have dipsticks anymore. I draw the line there.

I'm open to suggestions if anyone has any, and thanks again ateixeira.

ateixeira · December 2010

The odd thing is the new base-model Sonata has 4 more horses than that big V6 from the XG, and aren't they $19k for starters?

It may be tough to get heated seats with no power windows.

You may want to consider adding aftermarket seat heaters to an existing car.

crkyolfrt · December 2010

Yes, even the XG is not the L model so my plan was to add aftermkt heaters even though I would prefer finding them as OEM.

Interesting thing about the Sonata. In Hyundai's infinite wisdom, they don't offer heaters with the stick tranny. Not even as an option.

joeyrab · December 2010

I think Toyota maybe before 2002 was the best car on the road. I think in late 2010, 2011, they will be back to that status. The only problem is that everytime someone pees and misses the toilet at a toyota factory, your gonna hear about it from the media. Why? One reason is thay single handedly damaged the American automobile industry..No to mention GM Ford and Chrysler didn't help themselves with the abominations they have been putting out..And two, they are not domestic..
I am not one of those people that think the imports, (japanese), and domestic cars are alot closer in quality than some...I still would by a Honda, Toyota, Suzuki, or Subaru before I bought Chrysler Ford or GM, (still not sold 100% 0n Hyundai either)

lemko · December 2010

If Mercedes kept going in the trajectory it was back around 1989, we'd have an S-Class that would probably last 60 years but cost $200K+.

fintail · December 2010

Growth is nice, but raw sales count for a lot more. American roads aren't as good as European roads, but aren't at the level of second and third world kleptocracies just yet. And as you say, new roads will be better - of all places probably in China where they seem to be putting an effort into infrastructure. China could end up with better roads and rail than the US - so long as their typical quality shortcuts don't apply.

I wasn't comparing my E55 to lower priced cars, I was saying it was especially harsh for such a car. New ones are more like 100K with normal options, and have more advanced suspensions. And on that note, the lower line E200 diesel I drove in Germany last year probably handles better than a similarly priced Lexus, even if a little slower off the line.

I don't see any real styling merits to the Sonata. It's a Korean interpretation of a CLS, and Asian styling knockoffs are rarely beauties. Nobody stretches lights like a few Asian makes, who have been aiming to connect the headlight assemblies with the A-pillar or front door for a while now. The CL also has slightly wraparound lights, but they don't aim for the door or pillar as some brands do.

fintail · December 2010

Instead MB went into a panic, and in 2000 we got an S-class that in some cases didn't last 10 years but still cost 100K. Good going guys!

I'd love to see what a modern version of 80s MB engineering would look like. Actually, I think you can find it in the lower spec Euro cars today. I was feeling a definite W123-124 vibe in that diesel I drove last year. There is such a thing as too much gadgetry and weight.

ateixeira · December 2010

I was reading the latest issue of Consumer Reports and read that their Jeep Grand Cherokee slid sideways in their avoidance manuever, yet it didn't get the same attention that the Lexus GX did when it essentially did the same thing.

They said they were going to test a Hemi-equipped model to see if it behaved in the same manner.

What's that, a mulligan? Or do they just not go after the domestic brands at all? What gives?

Historically, CR has gone after Suzuki (Samurai), then Isuzu (Trooper), then Toyota (Lexus GX). Ford got a pass when the Escape rolled over in crash tests, and now a Jeep is getting a 2nd chance if not a free pass.

The 3 imports got a giant "DO NOT BUY" warning.

And the funny thing is people say CR is biased in favor of Toyota. Imagine that!

ateixeira · December 2010

I wasn't comparing my E55 to lower priced cars

Not directly, but that is your yardstick.

fintail · December 2010

My E55 mention was in response to your harsh Miata.

Really, nothing from Asia competes with the AMG E-class or its German equivalents, not until the tuned GS ever appears anyway.

ateixeira · December 2010

I understand, but what we drive daily serves as a reference point - and may exlpain your high standards for an enthusiasts' car.

Conversely, some people find certain vehicles big (say, a mid-size SUV) but I'm so used to my minivan that I find those tight inside.

We agree about the upcoming GS-F (?) being among the first to try to challenge the big AMG sedans.

fintail · December 2010

I welcome the Lexus challenge, competition can only improve the breed. The IS-F is probably the only Lexus I'd really want to own (well,with my own money...if someone gave me a new LS for free I am sure I could find a use for it), making something else that might actually have an iota of fun in it can only be a good thing.

Toyota had some soul once. Maybe they can bring it back.

ateixeira · December 2010

No love for the LF-A?

I sat in an IS-F at the "Taste of Lexus" event that toured around the country. Fabulous seats, but we didn't get to drive it.

I don't think Toyotas necessarily need soul, in other words a lot of people need beige carpeting and paint. I bet you have some in your own home.

Ferrari red and BRG are exiciting colors, sure, but I wouldn't paint more than one wall those colors.

fintail · December 2010

LF-A is a very cool car, but isn't a lot of car for the money. If someone gave one to me I'd be thrilled, but for my own dough, there are other things I'd rather own.

Toyota once had a nice line of RWD cars, many of which existed with a manual, and cool trucks. Not so much of that lately. They've catered well to the beige market, but I'd rather have beige flooring than a beige vehicle.

ateixeira · December 2010

Well, not everyone aspires to own an AMG E-class. There are plenty of point A to point B folks, and they just want comfort and space. Toyota can do just fine catering to those folks, Lexus too. In fact they both have.

Plus, who is the poseur? Your aunt in the ES who just wants space and comfort, or the Yuppie who buys an M3 automatic because he can't drive stick, and then complains about the stiff ride all the time? IMHO the Lexus owners is at least being honest with herself. To me that M3 buyer is the poseur.

Better yet - it's the guy with the 328i that buys the little ///M sticker (the best selling part in the BMW catalog, ironically). Have you seen Lexus F stickers on an ES? I haven't.

Funny thing is while I am an enthusiasts, I tend to follow Colin Chapman's theory of "adding lightness" to make a car more fun, so I've always liked sporty cars that are also small/light - CR-X, Miata, Elise, etc.

Thing is, besides that Elise, there aren't many european sports cars under 3000 lbs. Did you know a Porsche 911 is now longer and heavier than a Corvette Z06? In the late 70s 911 faithful would have called the 'vette a pig, now look.

What happened? Even a VW GTI hits the scales at over 3000 lbs. Huh?

Here's the new Benz SLK - it has become a bigger, heavier, GT instead of a sports car:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/03/leaked-2012-mercedes-benz-slk-revealed-ahead-- of-schedule-w-vid/

I'd rather sample an FT-86.

Or this:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/06/rumormill-honda-planning-turbocharged-non-hyb- rid-cr-z/

Hope it's true. A real CR-X successor would be sweet.

I know there are hot hatches in Europe, but when are we going to see some of those here?

nippononly · December 2010

Better yet - it's the guy with the 328i that buys the little ///M sticker (the best selling part in the BMW catalog, ironically). Have you seen Lexus F stickers on an ES? I haven't.

Yes, but that's because there isn't any 'F' in an ES, whereas every 328i comes with a little bit of ///M.

Lexus is trying to be two things at once, which will always hurt it in the eyes of enthusiasts - it is trying to compete with the Buicks, Acuras, and Volvos of the world with the FWD models, which are mostly just rebadges of Toyotas with some frou-frou and a badge thrown in to make the owner feel special, and meanwhile it is also trying to compete with the Europeans with the rest of the models, where performance is mostly lagging the Euro competition.

Enthusiasts will never give any respect to a luxury brand that is half full of Acura/Buicks - just look at how little love Buick, Acura, and Volvo get from performance fans.

But for Lexus this does result in lots of sales, because the A/B/V end of the line is the cheaper end, and it is where more than 3/4 of the sales are.

That's why the LFA is such a huge waste of money and energy for Toyota, and why the F-line is questionable too. Until they split off their FWD snoozer models into a separate brand and reserve the Lexus name for the serious models, their image will be muddled and few will really believe in their new "performance" line. Reference Cadillac prior to the early '00s.

nippononly · December 2010

Just saw this.....

I don't see any real styling merits to the Sonata. It's a Korean interpretation of a CLS, and Asian styling knockoffs are rarely beauties

....and OMG! I couldn't agree more! The Hyundai folks have done a totally typical Korean makeover of a good-looking European car here, with the usual results, and it BLOWS MY MIND that so many people think this car looks good. I thought it looked bad in pictures, then I went to the auto show and it looks even worse in person.

Kinda gives Toyota a leg up, I think - makes their styling look a little better by comparison.

ateixeira · December 2010

every 328i comes with a little bit of ///M

I disagree. If it doesn't have an M from the factory, adding a fake sticker is no different than a giant wing on a Civic.

Lexus is trying to be two things at once

On that I agree, but I think it could still work. It's just been a half-hearted effort so far. Great engines (Lotus-worthy) but no manuals to go with them. All-or-nothing suspension tuning, too.

The next IS and GS are crucial, very crucial, to Lexus pleasing enthusiasts. And I'm not just talking about the F models, either.

ateixeira · December 2010

It's a Korean interpretation of a CLS

The new twist is it brought the 4 door coupe look to the affordable segment, and sales have skyrocketed.

OK, fintail says it's competing with dull cars, but look at the previous Sonata - and sales are up from that dull car, way up.

Look at the Passat CC - no such success.

gagrice · December 2010

Enthusiasts will never give any respect to a luxury brand that is half full of Acura/Buicks

If it were not for the wannabe SUV RX, that looks for all intents and purposes like a Faberge Egg, Lexus would not have much to brag about on the sales front. 63% of their sales are the RX and fancy Camry ES. Both vehicles prove there are a lot of old people out there with lots of money to waste.

I am assuming that Lexus was trying to compete with the ML from MB when they built the RX a year later. I cannot come up with a single aspect the RX excels over the ML. I guess people buy them because they are CHEAP with a Lexus emblem.

fintail · December 2010

Compared to an ES, a standard E is like an AMG car. I don't know if I ever used the "poseur" label for ES drivers specifically, so I don't know how that applies... but the performance offerings of Lexus do fall short of the competition, which might be why Lexus falls so short of the competition in places where driving is more serious business, and why the brand has such a (deserved) bland stereotyped image.

Plenty of brands have poseurs driving all models. I see plenty of [non-permissible content removed] trying to race around in likely leased IS models of various spec (but never an F of course, as these are like hens teeth) just as I see them in leased 328, A4, G37, and C300s. There's a certain demographic who buys such cars no matter the brand,especially here.

One reason you might not see a fake F badge on a Lexus is few know the line even exists. It's not exactly dominating the worldwide tuned production car market like M/AMG/S-RS have done for eons.

SLK has always been kind of a cruiser more than a real sports car either, other than the rare tuned variants...doesn't surprise me. It was never meant to be a Miata.

Americans generally don't like hatchbacks, especially from weird brands.

fintail · December 2010

Yes, something less dull competes with very dull cars - and at the same time offers a big value proposition, so it sells. I don't see how this is a surprise.

In 20 years people won't be looking back at it as a piece of great design. It's a knock-off with an uglier front.

fintail · December 2010

RX has become the "IT" vehicle for careless affluent women. Go to any botox clinic or other aesthetic maintenance facility, and will be like an RX club show. I think it predates the ML by a sliver of time, but guess what - as a Toyota Harrier.

I think that entire segment are somewhat like Faberge eggs - RX/ML/MDX and so on. No thanks.

gagrice · December 2010

At least with an ML you can go off road without fear of it disintegrating into a thousand pieces. The ML has a much nicer feel out on the road. And the back seat I would sit in. I feel about sedans as you do about SUVs. Why would I want another sedan? Maybe when you get to be my age and it hurts getting out of low slung vehicles you will under stand. As far as looks, I agree, most of the SUV type vehicles are butt ugly. The X5 is maybe the least ugly. Still nothing to get excited about. My benchmark is still the older Audi Allroad. I would buy one in a minute with a diesel engine. A vehicle Lexus owners can only dream about.

fintail · December 2010

ML is more capable off road no doubt...but it will be more work to maintain. Lexus has nailed the target market for that car - they don't care about roadability, they want smooth, supple, and showy, and the RX nails it. It's like a designer handbag on wheels.

If I wanted a SUV I'd be after a grey market diesel G-Wagen. Now that's an SUV.

You'll need to go to evil socialist Europe to get a diesel Allroad. The ones sold here were very problematic. A co-worker of mine has one of the last ones sold here (they still make them for Europe) - likes it a lot, has had very few problems...but he tells me his mechanic tells him his car is miraculously good compared to most. I think the average Lexus owner would cringe or cry at the thought of fueling up at a stinky diesel pump :shades:

gagrice · December 2010

The G-wagon would be my first choice in a diesel as well. That is a real SUV for sure. The ARCO station I used for my Passat TDI and Sprinter RV, gave you plastic gloves to fill with diesel. Saved you from the sloppy truck driver that filled before you. There are two G-Wagons in my neighborhood. One is blinged out with the ugliest wheels you can imagine. I just cringe when I see those vehicles. Not worth a hoot off road or on our beat up roads. Driving the Lexus I do the slalom thing around all the potholes. I don't want to damage the suspension. I give the Sequoia a B grade handling potholes. Have not really given it an off road workout. I don't like getting too far off road when we are on a day trip with friends along. It is comfortable on dirt washboard roads. Slightly better than my Suburban was.

I just like that size and looks of the older Allroad. Have never driven or owned one. It does not have that gawdy Audi radiator that I don't like. That kills the Q7 diesel for me.

jimbres · December 2010

or other aesthetic maintenance facility

"aesthetic maintenance facility" - nice turn of phrase. Must remember it.

ateixeira · December 2010

fancy Camry ES

You really hate the ES, eh? LOL

Keep in mind the ES is built in Japan, and measured quality is higher than the Camry. It also gets a unique engine, interior, exterior, etc.

ateixeira · December 2010

Compared to an ES, a standard E is like an AMG car

That's not really fair - Lexus doesn't try to make the ES sporty. It's less sporty than their own Camry, intentionally.

Some people want a big, comfy sofa.

I agree more with criticisms against the IS and GS because those models ARE supposed to be sporty. They need better suspension tuning and more manual transmissions. Let's see how Lexus updates those.

ateixeira · December 2010

In 20 years people won't be looking back at it as a piece of great design. It's a knock-off with an uglier front

I think we'll look back and say this Sonata was a turning point for Hyundai.

"Great" design? That's a mighty high standard to apply to a mainstream family sedan.

Still, the Sonata will do for Hyundai what the original Taurus did for Ford. Interesting enough to draw attention, and a successful design as well.

ateixeira · December 2010

At least with an ML you can go off road

The original ML was body-on-frame, but isn't the new one softer, and now unibody? They softened it up to compete with ... guess who? The segment leader you hate.

If you want an off road truck on that platform go for the new Grand Cherokee. Just be willing to accept that the stability control is as bad as the Lexus GX' used to be.

You were critical of the Lexus GX, now the question is, would you give the Jeep a free pass for the same problem?

lemko · December 2010

Go all the way and get a Unimog!

ateixeira · December 2010

Lexus has nailed the target market for that car - they don't care about roadability, they want smooth, supple, and showy, and the RX nails it. It's like a designer handbag on wheels.

That formula worked, can we blame them? Lexus has maintained the #1 spot for how many years now? If it ain't broke....

Also, doesn't M-B sponsor fashion week? They'd kill to steal all those designer handbag customers away from Lexus. An ML was never an enthusiast car anyway. No wonder the newer ML is less trucky and a lot more Lexus-like.

gagrice · December 2010

You really hate the ES, eh? LOL

Yes, from day one. It replaced the best car Toyota ever built. The Cressida. It was the beginning of the end for a decent car company. The Camry may sell in the millions to those that do not know any better. It is still sub par to the Cressida. The dumbing down of the car market. My ex wife had a Cressida she loved. When she wrecked it the insurance company would not pay the price to get another one so she ended up with a Camry she did not like. I looked for a replacement the whole time we were married and no one wanted to sell their Cressida.

ateixeira · December 2010

OK, that explains it.

Cressida sales peaked in 1985 at about 45k sales. That's actually not bad volume, but the last generation only peaked at about half that rate, 24k sales in 1989.

The Lexus ES is on pace to do about 47k sales this year, and has sold consistently well.

If anything, the Lexus GS should perhaps be seen as the spritual successor to the Cressida, though, being RWD.

fintail · December 2010

GS is also expensive, anonymous, doesn't lead in virtually any category, and they sell dozens a year.

Cressida could even be had with a 5-speed!

Toyota on the mend?

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