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Toyota on the mend?

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  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yep forgot the CRV. A big hit for Honda.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,182
    What I read is GM is only planning on selling 10k of those with a cost of 4 - 5 grand over the non-hybrid model.

    How many HH's does Toyota sell?

    Anyways, 10 thousand copies should be a cakewalk for GM, they should sell every one of them. And I'll follow that conclusion up with: They'll sell everyone who was sold on a Yukon or a Tahoe in the first place. Other than that, I highly doubt these things are going to make a huge impact in the market.

    Why? Simple, gas prices are still high and people are aware that they are not going down significantly and most likely will climb even higher over the winter months. I'm sorry, if I am looking to save a buck or 2 in gas and I want to be environmentally conscious

    I AM NOT BUYING A 4 TON SUV!!!

    I also could not live with the shock factor of seeing triple digits come across the screen after every fillup. A friend of mine has a Suburban that costs over 100 dollars per fillup. That's gotta hurt after a while no matter how great 21mpg is.

    This is where I see the HH and the RXh and the Ford hybrids are ahead of the game. Because those environmentally conscious "greenies", "eco-geeks", whatever we want to refer them as are probably not all loaded $$$-wise. And for less money a vehicle like those mentioned still provide 90% of the utility of the T/Y hybrids, significantly better mileage without the bulk.

    Maybe I'm wrong but the people I know who are trying to "live green" do not fall in to the category of "excess" and would probably shout "Burn your SUV" long before actually buying one... :blush:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    "The incentives are $5000 to $6000 but the rebates are actually only $2000 to $3000. A buyer can choose one or the other."

    Whats the difference between and rebates aren;t they the same thing?


    When it's reported that there are up to $6000 in incentives on the Tundra all of that is waived interest charges for finance customers but you are expected to pay full MSRP. If you bring your own financing or pay cash you don't get $6000 off the MSRP price you only get $2000 or $3000 cash rebate.

    "Agreed on the Corolla. They are discounted as they should be in their last several months but overall the current MSRP is about $1000 higher than when this Gen first came out in Feb 2002. In effect even with a $1000 rebate they are still selling the Corolla at 'full sticker'."

    Corolla's are selling for full sticker currently vs the 2003 model? I don;t know about that because it depends with the spread between new invoice(on a 2007 or 2008 model) and old MSRP is on the 2003 model would think anyay.


    A tricky nuance that I threw in there. When a manufacturer sells a vehicle to a retailer it's at the 'wholesale' price... as far as the public is concerned. The dealer adds his costs and his markup and that becomes the MSRP. But the manufacturer doesn't benefit or get hurt by anything the dealer does. The dealers 'wholesale' price is actually the manufacturer's 'full sticker price'. An example:
    When the Corolla first came out the base CE had an MSRP of about $15250 on the sticker. Toyota actually sold this vehicle to the dealer for about $13000. This was the full sticker price between Toyota and dealer. After that the dealer could sell it for whatever he/she wanted. Make money or lose money on it? It had no effect on Toyota because they already had their money from the dealer's bank.

    5-1/2 yrs down the road the same Corolla is now invoiced to the dealer at $14000 and the dealer sees an MSRP on the window of $16500. The dealer can still sell it for whatever price makes the sale but again it has no effect on Toyota since they already have been paid $14000. But since the vehicle needs some oomph to keep sales going Toyota offers the buyer $500 - $1000 out of it's pocket.

    Now that $14000 'full sticker' sale is still on the books between dealer and Toyota but when the retail sale is made Toyota reduces the net effective sale to $13000, which btw is the same price they originally were selling the vehicles to the dealer back in 2002.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Toyota will do with the rumored small RWD coupe (the so called AE86 successor)?

    Will Toyota slap a Scion badge on it and make it the next generation tC or they'll keep it as a Toyota? I personally see two scenarios for future Toyota sports car and sporty coupes:

    Scenario 1:

    - Small, light weight RWD coupe as the next gen Scion tC.
    - Toyota will get only one coupe, it'll be more expensive and have better performance to differentiate from the small RWD coupe. This will be the rumored new Supra or FT-HS.

    Scenario 2:

    - The next gen tC remains FWD, sort of like an evolutionary version of the current tC.
    - Toyota gets 2 coupes, one being the small coupe and the other as the new Supra or FT-HS. Both will be RWD.

    I personally think what will happen is Scenario 1 but given a choice I'll choose Scenario 2. More options means more power to the buyers. Either way, if both (or 3) coupes are perfectly executed, the future looks bright over at Toyota's front.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,182
    You may get scenario 2 as I thought there was supposed to be an IS coupe coming. So who knows if in typical fashion that they also have a Toyota version of the same car at a later date? I have a sneaking suspicion that the Supra, FT-HS, whatever will be more of a supercar like the Acura NSX so it makes sense to have the Toyota coupe to sell to those who can't swing the payments for the supercar :D

    Unfortunately, the part of your scenario with the next tC being a front drive evolution of the current car rather than an all new approach with a lightweight rear driver is probably correct as well :(
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I certainly hope the base price for the next Supra will be around $30K with a 350HP 2GR-FSE. Toyota can make it a hybrid all they want with the high end model but they should keep the entry model as simple as possible.

    I have no doubt that the next Supra (or FT-HS) will ride on the IS platform so very likely it'll be Toyota's version of the future IS coupe. Whatever they do they should make this car as affordable as possible and don't mess around with any of those super car crap. The LF-A should be the only super car in Toyota's lineup.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Toyota had a dip in quality, but at it's lowest point, it was nowhere near "average". So I don't see this "mortgage" of which you speak.

    No maker of Toyota's volume is even close in quality. Honda only has half the volume.

    Toyota's vehicles may not be a diverse, but they are better vehicles, better values, more capable. :D

    15 years ago, outside of Camry and Supra, Toyota didn't offere any product that was truly superior.

    Now Rav4, Tacoma, Tundra, Avalon, Prius, Sienna have stepped up the level of play.

    Toyota is bigger and better, but they've had to go through some minor growing pains.

    I don't see Rome burning. They are now market leaders in value, as well as quality. They seem to know where there bread is buttered. ;)

    DrFill
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    I beg your pardon? 15 years ago was 1992, and Toyota still built the AMAZING Celica All-Trac AND the second-gen MR2. Do you know any of the history of this company?

    Not to mention that IMHO the compact pick-up, later the Tacoma, has ALWAYS been a superior product (yes, including the '92 and all the early 90s). Lately, they have followed the traditional formula of bigger and more powerful perhaps to excess, as its fuel economy sucks (which may be why its sales are down so much - all the Tacoma buyers that wanted personal transportation got pushed by higher gas prices into something less costly to run), but it is still a great truck.

    And in '92 they were still selling the old Cressida, which had come up quite a bit in price but was still nowhere near the price levels the Avalon has reached, and was a very nice cruiser for the money.

    In 2002 and 2003 I rented Camrys and Corollas that had so many rattles and squeaks it was a shame for the company. Nowhere near average quality? I dunno.....it was certainly much less than I expected from Toyota. My '03 Matrix was the same way, it was back to the shop under warranty three times in the first few months for various items. My friends have an '05 Sienna in which a large number of interior panels feel loose or squeaky, the whole thing just feels fragile. They are not the types to notice stuff like that and have been quite pleased with it, and I find it to be a very pleasant vehicle to ride in, and never too slow to drive as Toyota minivans of old were, but in terms of build quality it is lacking IMO.

    Those were the bad years of the early to mid-00s at Toyota. We will see if they turn it around. I know they probably CAN, but it will mean a huge investment in time and energy, not to mention some investment of those huge profits they are reaping now. Will they commit? They say they will. We will see.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,054
    Other products come to mind are the 1974 Toyota Landcruiser, The 1986 Cressida! I also had a 1987 Landcruiser. 34/22/21 years old respectively! The 1974 Landcruiser was versatile and almost literally a tank. The 1986 Cressida could cruise all day/night at 90 mph! It was literally an awesome vehicle. I also had a 1987 Landcruiser, ran it for app 250,000 miles and sold it for 57% of its new vehicle value.(lost 43%/14 years or 3.1% per year) at the 14 year mark. Actually should have kept it! :(
  • Ouch smack down of Fill there.

    I just sold a 2002 4Runner tonight to a guy who still has the 1992 Toyota Pickup he bought new.

    It has 250,000 miles on it and has had only four serious problems on it.

    New head gasket a few months ago.
    Three mufflers which considering how much salt gets used around here that is decent. The bed is starting to rust pretty bad but that is because he had an after market soft tonneau cover put on it years ago and where the snaps attached to the bed it is rusting. Drop a new bed on the truck and it will be perfect again.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,465
    Just can't buy anything that lasts these days.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I beg your pardon? 15 years ago was 1992, and Toyota still built the AMAZING Celica All-Trac AND the second-gen MR2.

    I guess you missed my "diverse" line-up comment. :sick:

    The Celiac All-Trac was ahead of it's time, but was somewhat overweight. I don't remember any stampedes, or many used examples available.

    The MR2 was a class of one, so superior to what exactly? :blush:

    Toyota had 3-4 great years for sports cars, but it was more of an aborration (sic) than anything else.

    But I miss the golden days. :(

    DrFill
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    never sold sports cars. But it sold sporty cars that were darn fun to drive for well over 30 years, thank you very much. And I would say there was more than just the MR2 available in 1992 to folks who wanted a sporty 2-seater.

    And I don't believe I missed what you said, it was exactly this:

    15 years ago they had no superior products outside Camry and Supra.

    You did also say they did not have a diverse line-up, but I think they did - they sold a minivan, two different trucks, seven different cars including three sporty models, and 2 SUVs. In fact, it was eight different car models if you include the Tercel-based Paseo as a separate model (it had a different name and shape, but it was mechanically a Tercel). I call that diverse. They have half as many car models today if you don't include the Scions. They have transferred their "diversity" to crossovers and trucks. :-(

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I was trying to get across that Toyota's lineup was more diverse 15 years ago, with the mid-engined MR2, the mid-engine Previa, the AWD Celica, the Paseo, and the Supra.

    They are a better run company now, not producing unpopular things like Previa, Paseo, Tercel, or T100.

    I was kinda hoping their success with the middle of the market would give them room to attack the enthusiast fringe, but they're playing tight, and investing in hybrids, foreign markets, and protecting their quality advantage.

    Toyota, to remain on top, has a full plate, getting Hybrids into the mainstream, then improving them with IOn batteries, making sure they continue producing top ICE for their core audience, and then having diesels ready in case they do take off here in the States, which is not a given. :confuse:

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    http://www.egmcartech.com/2007/10/11/another-toyota-executive-leaves-for-detroit- - -lexus-farley-goes-to-ford/

    I guess if the domestics can't beat 'em, they'll buy 'em!

    At some point, Toyota will show the effects of these departures.

    Scion could use a fresh perspective, doh. :surprise:

    DrFill
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Actually, if Farley had anything to do with the current ES350 then I am glad that he's gone. I had 3 ES350 loaners when my car was in the shop and I just can't stand how poorly the interior is executed.

    That car is a disgrace of the Lexus brand. Drives good though.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    But I totally dig the more aggressive, shouldered exterior. Much more confident, and attractive.

    I thought the redesign would leave us with a container of Jello Pudding! :surprise:

    DrFill
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I agree that the new ES350 looks good and for that we have to thank the new L-finesse design philosophy. Lexus sedans are better looking than ever right now, I can only hope this will work as well with the SUVs. So far I haven't seen that happening yet with the LX570, the new LX is not a bad looking SUV it's just not in the same level as the sedans.

    I am still amazed that I find myself driving a Lexus, this will never happen 2 years ago, back then I had Lexus and Buick in the same category...
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Apparently, they didn't have a big problem with the 470.

    The face has a lot of LS cues, doh. :blush:

    They swung, and missed, with the GS. So, hopefully, help is on the way.

    DrFill
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I don't think the GS failed due to its exterior design. It's more of due to its underpowered powertrain and not so desirable handling. Both exterior/interior design and fit-n-finish are still top notch in its own category.

    As for the LX, I wouldn't call it a mild redesign since it has brand new everything including the awesome 5.7L V8. It is, however, a conservative redesign and I just don't see much L-finesse in it. I agree the face has a lot of LS cues though.
  • had 3 ES350 loaners when my car was in the shop and I just can't stand how poorly the interior is executed.

    Why three?

    Long shop visit or multiple visits? Did the other two ES350s break down?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Multiple visits.

    First one - 15,000 mile service.
    Second one - Rattle and inside rear view mirror replaced.
    Third one - Front brakes replaced.

    I was hoping to get a RX so I can see what all the hypes are about but unfortunately I got ES for all 3 visits.
  • You didn't miss anything with the RX believe me.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Well, I believe so too. Just want to see if I can understand why women love the RX. Be honest, after sitting in a RX at my Lexus dealer I just don't understand the hypes. The interior isn't exceptional and I actually think the car looks fat and bloated.

    I guess it rides comfortable on highway like the ES does.
  • It is quiet and reliable with a good highway ride plus the marketing of the car and the interior ergonomics are targeted right at women. I have sold a ton of them used and only one of them went to a man.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,189
    It's a piece of jewelry for women around here, or something like a designer handbag with wheels and an engine.
  • Our receptionist hates them but then she drives a 600 plus hp supra so she has good taste.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Her chromostones! LOL! :P

    If she's legit, I'm available.

    DrFill
  • Nah not available, her boyfriend built her Supra but she does the driving, and she is extremely attractive. Probably half your age too dirty old man.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I was betting that her boyfriend did Sup it up, but then they broke up. :cry:

    You got the dirty part right anyway! You get partial credit. ;)

    DrFill
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