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Toyota on the mend?

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  • please clarify what you said about the new AE86 sports car from Toyota and Subaru. They're just working together on this new AE86, and Toyota is not buying up Subaru overall, right? If that happened it slipped right past me and my carnut reading enterprise here. :D

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    Nah, Toyota isn't buying Subaru or anything. I believe it took a 20% interest. Toyota is doing styling and parts-sharing, Subaru is doing the powertrain. Subaru fans are quite upset because so far Subaru has been saying it will sell the RWD coupe just like Toyota will, and of course the Sube-ophiles want nothing but AWD.

    Me, I say it is a RWD coupe with decent fuel efficiency and a price under $20 grand. What's not to like? :-)

    I believe Toyota and Subaru do have plans to work jointly on other projects in the future, and of course Subaru is already building Camrys for Toyota at its plant in Indiana, right alongside the Legacy/Outback line.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • I mean, with all the car reading I do, I would've caught that one somewhere by now. Sounds like there's a lot riding on the AE86. RWD? Dunno about that, FWD or even AWD seems more appropriate for that car.

    The sketches looked pretty good, sporty little car it will be.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    In the US Subaru has been a bit like Jason in the movies. They have been up and down and near dead more than once. But one of the things they used to do is make TWD vehicles to try and match the compitition in fuel mileage. During the good days a few less miles per gallon didn't matter as long as you could point at someone driving a SUV and say you get better mileage than a Slade. But when people like you, not that it is a bad thing understand, start looking at Yaris, Fit and the rest Subaru simply doesn't have anything to bring to the table. I am talking entry level hyper mileage commuter cars. Sure Subaru doesn't do bad but no where near what the other guys are doing. So a TWD would be a sales boon to the little company. And if Toyota bought more of them than 20 percent it couldn't hurt in the long run.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Toyota is doing styling and parts-sharing, Subaru is doing the powertrain.

    That's actually not a bad plan come to think about it... Although Toyota's styling really won't catch anything on fire but it is more promising than what the Subaru has to offer recently.

    Just out of curiosity though, rumor has it that the coupe will be using Subaru's H4 instead of Toyota's new 2.7L I4. How do these two engines stack up against each other?
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    iluv: the new coupe is being planned as a RWD right from the start. If it were FWD I wouldn't be anywhere near as interested. Anyone can take their compact FWD sedan, lop off a couple of doors and call it "sporty". This will be sporty in more than just name, I am hoping.

    louis: the H4 is Subaru's superb little 2.0 from Japan - they don't use it here. It should be more than enough for a coupe with a target weight of 2500 pounds or less.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    louis: the H4 is Subaru's superb little 2.0 from Japan - they don't use it here. It should be more than enough for a coupe with a target weight of 2500 pounds or less.

    Now this is getting exciting...

    If the coupe is getting the EJ20X boxer with an AVCS twin-scroll turbo then that means the output will be 250 HP and 246 lb-ft of torque. I am going to be a little pessimistic here and assume the final weight to be around 2,750 lbs which means the power/torque to weight ratio will be something like 11 lbs/hp and 11.2 lbs/lb-ft.

    For comparison purpose the IS350 has a power/torque to weight ratio of 11.6 lbs/hp and 12.8 lbs/lb-ft.

    Which means with the Subaru 2.0L H4 the coupe will be guaranteed a 0-60 time of low 5 seconds and very tossible at around 2,700 lbs. Sounds like a winner to me, can anyone say: 370Z killer?

    Although I still think that the US version might get the new Toyota 2.7L I4 at around 200hp for base model though.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    I'm not an expert, but I believe they are talking about a naturally aspirated version of the Subaru 2.0. No way are you getting a turbo for that price, is what I'm thinking.

    Now could Subaru sell a turbo version for the Subaru brand? Sure it could. But the under-$20K Toyota version will be around a 150 hp, NA 2L engine.

    This will be a small car, and they are hoping to go significantly under 2500 pounds for final curb weight. That has me thinking the new Toyota 2.7 is WAY overkill for this little car, and would needlessly reduce fuel economy. I think it would also add cost, so I'm kind of hoping they don't use that one.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    I would have to agree with you that the 2.7 and the Turbo would both put it out range of anyone looking for an entry level sporty little car from Subaru. Maybe not for Toyota if they will be selling the same car but then it is "all" speculation at this point. It is unlikely it will make it for 2010 and who knows where we will be by then? And turbos are not known for good fuel mileage. Non boosted mileage is a dream for most people somehow that turbo just makes people stay in the go pedal. I am not going to start holding my breath now. Toyota has a habit of not delivering on time. Remember how long it took to get a full sized truck? Remember the press releases and the excitement from automotive magazines when they were going to release the first full sized truck? We got the T-100 with a tacoma engine. Remember when they finally released their first full sized PU? We got a 7/8 full sized truck. Remember the tC was going to be the Celica replacement?

    Wait do I hear the famous "yabut" goat about to darken the forum door? Toyota is not the only one because every year for at least ten years we read from the "experts' that Nissan was going send over a real Skyline? Opps we first got the G-35. Experts have even a shorter memory than the public. :P
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    'Yota was down the smallest percentage among the top automakers who sell in America.

    Seems like they are doing fine.
  • RWD? Apparently I have read that article a few months ago and that fact eluded me. Humm...I'm thinking 1.8L turbo 4 with a 5 or 6-speed tranny for this one. But if it's gonna be RWD I immediately think larger engine output and even turbo-charging for it. The car mags were showing a sketch, if any one has a pic of this little beast do pop it in here, K? This one should perk up a lot of car nut ears around these U.S.'s.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    It wouldn't be a proper AE86 successor if it were anything but RWD, now would it? That was the reason the AE86 got so famous: lightweight, inexpensive, and RWD (and because it was a Corolla, almost infinitely moddable).

    boaz: Toyota has in the past missed the specification targets for projects it was developing, but to my knowledge it has never missed a deadline once it officially announced when it was going to release something.

    Anyway, it makes no difference in this case because the thing is already mostly done, as they relying heavily on existing platforms and powertrains....they might end up bringing it to market early, to compete head to head with Honda's CRX release late next year. Assuming Honda remains on time with that project, of course...

    So the only question in my mind is the weight. Will they succeed in building a car that is at least as light as the 2000-2005 Celica, if not lighter? I suuure hope so, because I will be headed to the dealership in that case.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    So many renderings out there, here ya go...

    image
    Source: Inside Line

    image

    image
    Source: 7tune

    image
    Source: AUTOCAR

    image
    Source: Autoblog
  • I would love to see this car in the USA with the 2.0-liter Valvematic I-4 rated at around 147 bhp and a six-speed dual-clutch transmission. It'll be fun to drive and get reasonable fuel economy. :)
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    And yet it's pretty much guaranteed that it will use a Subaru engine instead. Toyota will be very focused on minimizing the cost of this model, so premium engines like the new Valvematic 2.0 will not be in play, I think.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • thanks for those renderings, louiswei. It's that one on the bottom that I saw in the car mags. This car could be a huge hit for Toyota, so far I don't read anything that says they're doing anything wrong with it's development, gentlemen.

    Remember, they released the statement that they don't want this coupe to cost anything over $18,000. That would be really smart.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 40,575
    " The Japanese giant became the latest automaker to reveal plunging profits due to the financial crisis, following on the heels of BMW, Nissan and Honda.

    Toyota , vying with General Motors for the title of the world's top automaker, cut its annual profit forecast by more than half after a terrible year so far. "

    Toyota warns of 'unprecedented' crisis AFP

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  • petlpetl Posts: 610
    They are still going to make a profit (approx. 1.3 billion). You have to feel sorry for the US companies which are going to lose billions. And, with about 30 billion in the bank, they appear to still be in pretty good shape (for now).
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    They are still going to make a profit (approx. 1.3 billion). You have to feel sorry for the US companies which are going to lose billions. And, with about 30 billion in the bank, they appear to still be in pretty good shape (for now).

    Before you feel too sorry for the American auto manufacturers losing Billions you might want to feel sorry for yourself. As we speak the Three are meeting with the government for their share of of a bail out. It looks like they are going to get the money so guess who is going to pay for it? Nissan, Toyota and Honda are not eligible even though they have factories in the US, because they are foreign owned. If we can bail out wall street more than likely they will use our taxes to bail out GM, Chrysler and Ford. ( I don't have to agree with it to see it happening.)
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    I hadn't heard about at all until I started looking at some news articles from this week:

    The U.S. market meltdown has upended Toyota's profit picture.

    North America slumped to a $335.9 million operating loss in the April-September fiscal first half. Sales there slid 9.4 percent to 1.36 million vehicles in the period.


    Operating LOSS in North America? Wow, that is probably unprecedented for Toyota.

    Oh, and I'm not sure where the $1.3 billion profit figure came from, but this article says
    Looking ahead, Toyota also slashed its global sales target. It now expects sales to fall 7.6 percent to 8.24 million units this fiscal year. It had earlier forecast 8.74 million vehicles.

    Net income also will fall significantly, Toyota warned. The new outlook calls for a 68.0 percent drop to $5.34 billion for the year. That is less than half Toyota's earlier forecast for net income of $11.7 billion.


    More significantly, that is down 2/3 from the normal figure of around $15 billion for annual profits at Toyota. Its fiscal year ends 3-31-09.

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20081106/ANA02/811069985/1078

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    You're not looking at the big picture. Again....it's about currrency, currency, currency. It is THE key issue for a wide array of products; i.e. Yaris, Prius,4Runner, Highlander and RAV4, not to mention most of the Lexus lineup. Of these 5 vehicles only the very low priced Yaris is up. Why ship expensive vehicles from Japan into a declining market ( US ) with an increasingly worthless currency?

    If they ship the production of these vehicles to other countries rather than the US they avoid having to absorb a 20% currency penalty and they don't have to fight the headwinds our declining mature market. IOW the decline is intentional.

    I used to have to do this, make these product allocation decisions based on currency and profitability, over and over again in my prior job in the steel industry. It's just part of international trade.

    Now when the new RAV plant in Ont, and the new Prius plant in Miss, and the new Highlander line in Ind come on stream over the next 6-18 months then there will be no currency penalty to absorb.

    Note that the Camry and Corolla are down only nominally in this market where 20% to 30% declines are the norm. Everything about Toyota in NA still revolve around the Camry and Corolla.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It takes only a few minutes to check on the number of cars Scion is down and to look up what the management says about it. I know where you are coming from, you hang on to the bitter end as you did in your support of the Echo even as it circled the drain. I remember the supporters or the Baja even as it fell on its grill from day one. We enthusiasts and a stubborn lot and will support what we like and throw mud at what we don't like no matter what the numbers say. That is what makes these forums so interesting. So do you think they will have a Hybrid MR-2 or will they try to release a sports car in this economy?

    Sales of Scions this year are equal to sales of Scions last year! And..this in a market that is down 25% overall and getting weaker. In addition this in the face of a currency which imputes a 20% revenue penalty on every Scion sale made here.

    Hot? No. Stable, Yes.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Sales of Scions this year are equal to sales of Scions last year!

    That's absolutely amazing, with the current economical situation.

    And people are saying that Scion is in trouble?

    :confuse:
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    What kdh didn't mention is that last year Scion had only one model to sell, while this year it has three including two that are BRAND NEW.

    I bet they are wondering why they bothered to Toyot-ize the xA to produce the new xD. They probably could have made as many sales just continuing to sell the old xA....

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    What kdh didn't mention is that last year Scion had only one model to sell, while this year it has three including two that are BRAND NEW.

    Well... I don't think what you are saying is correct either.

    Last year the new xB was already out and I believe the old xB (which some people are saying that was selling better than the new one) was still on sale through the first half of 2007. Instead of xD Scion has the xA, the tC remain unchanged from '07 - '08. With that established, let's see the calendar year to date Scion sales numbers:

    Modle 2008 2007

    xA 39 9,513
    xB 41,265 38,207
    tC 37,904 56,500
    xD 25,294 7,398

    Overall 104,502 111,618

    Source: Club Lexus

    The tC sales number is lacking because it is getting long in teeth but overall the Toyo-sized xD and xB really didn't do worse than their predecessors.

    Scion in trouble? I still don't buy it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Actually last year through Oct 07 there were four Scions that were sold...
    xA, xB, tC and xD....totalling ~112,000 units

    In 2008 through Oct there were 3 Scions sold ( OK 4 if you count the 39 xA's sold in Jan )..
    xB, tC and xD....totalling ~104,000 units

    IMO the xD is a much better vehicle than the xA. The xB lost some of it's appeal to the target audience but that audience is so fickle that it's hard to keep it in the sights.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    yes, and all xAs sold were 2006 models left over from prior to 12/06. All xBs through April were leftover '06s as well, after which the redesigned '08 became available.

    The xD was released in August wasn't it?

    My point was the only model year 2007 Scion EVER available was the tC. Yes, the '08 xD and xB were released during calendar 2007. I think we may have been talking at cross purposes.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    So you are saying Autoweek is wrong?

    In the past, Scion routinely notched 15,000 to 20,000 sales per month. But January sales were 7,782 units. In January 2006, Scion sold 10,701 vehicles with about 60 fewer dealers than it has now. The average sales per outlet during that period dropped from 11.9 to 8.1.i>

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080303/FREE/122766980/1023/- rss01&rssfeed=rss01

    And this quote is from an unreliable sourse?
    "Changeover fumbled
    But Jim Lentz,u> president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., concedes that Scion mishandled last year's model changeover.
    Fearing that holdovers could harm the brand's hipness, Toyota stopped production of the old xA and xB in December 2006. But production of the vehicles had already been slowing, and dealers quickly ran dry of product. Meanwhile, the carryover tC coupe was starting to show its age.
    The redesigned xB didn't reach showrooms until March, and the new xD didn't arrive until August.
    "We underestimated the loss of momentum from the dark period for those two vehicles," said Lentz, who once ran the Scion brand. "The way Scion is marketed, it takes longer to get traction."


    To farther help support the contention by both Toyota and Autoweek here is the chart confirming the sales slump over the last 13-16 months.

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080303/FREE/122766980/1023/- rss01&rssfeed=rss01&template=zoom&Site=CW&Date=20080303&Category=FREE&ArtNo=1227- 66980&Ref=V2&Profile=1023&CRED=

    Once again the argument would be with Toyota and autoweek's contention that Scion was down in sales. Some are just reporting the information.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 40,575
    We saw an xA last night and my wife (who likes the xD a lot) liked the xA styling too. Maybe Toyota should have kept it around a while longer.

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  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,691
    Problem was, it was the Japan-market ist, which was replaced that year. There was no way for them to continue making it just for export to America as the xA.

    I think the updates to the xA to make it the xD were actually quite minor, except for its use of the Corolla engine and consequent drop in fuel economy.

    The one that really got Toyot-ized and totally alienated its former customer base was the xB.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

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