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Toyota on the mend?

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  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    why do you always dance all over the place but never address the topic of discussion? In case you missed it we are talking about toyota squeezing suppliers for an additional 30% and the impact this will have on toyota quality or lack of. you need to take off the rosy glasses. Toyota sells on quality (real or imagined) and that is all. once you take that away there is nothing left. nobody dreams of owning a camry or a corrola. people are realizing that toyota quality is nothing special and it is on its way down, while the competition is improving, toyota is penny pinching .As we all witnessed with gm f c, it takes a while for the buying public to catch on but in the days of the internet toyotas fall will be much swifter.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I was an automotive supplier for 20+ yrs. I know this business. Your understanding of it is grossly mistaken so any view you've got is based on 3rd or 4th hand readings from sites that may or may not be neutral. IOW...it has no bearing on anything. Can I be more direct. You simply don't understand the business, I lived the business.

    You have a single opinion. Data shows that your opinion is in the minority so while it's your right to hold that opinion it has no bearing on anything. You are simply being out-voted. It sucks to be in the minority.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,159
    One thing that does seem to be happening at Toyota is a slow erosion of their pricing premium compared to Honda. The Camry is now priced pretty aggresively to keep the heat on improving competitors like Fusion and Malibu, so it doesn't surprise me that Toyota volume is strong. In fact, that pricing is what got me to buy a Camry. Toyota picked up some GM arrogance and stupidity, but I think management changes there will keep it from diving like GM did.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    I expect that Toyota has peaked out. I would not expect them to self destruct like GM did. Toyota does not have the UAW legacy costs hanging around their neck. When the numbers are tallied up next week Toyota will be number two in the World behind VW.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I agree about the pricing. The reason that there have been 9 Toyota's in our family since 1989 is that from the very beginning when I walked into the local Honda store in NJ looking to buy an Accord they refused to budge an inch on price. I walked out the door across the lot to the same dealer's Toyota store and bought a Camry at a discount that same day.

    Since then I've found that while Toyota is rarely the leader in engineering innovation and definitely not the leader in styling what it does better than every other maker is twofold.
    1) It's the best production company in the industry, and
    2) It's even better at marketing than it is in production.

    Marketing encompasses almost everything from logistics to distribution to advertising to sales to pricing to market studies and then in the end understanding the resulting data and how to apply it to the fixed asset industry model of auto making.

    This leads the rest of the industry and their respective fans to continue to be confounded about 'How in the heck can these bland appliances continue to sell so well and how do they make money doing it?'
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I agree with this. I think that GM, Toyota and maybe again Ford will all be in the high-teens for overall corporate marketshare when things recover. GM will never recover to 30% again; Toyota will never reach 30%; Ford ??? The rest, never happen.

    Only a major merger will cause a significant change in volumes IMO. Now all of the players will be playing to gain single digits while not losing any ground. That's why I think that Hyundai's task is so difficult. There's no weakling to steal its lunch money.

    GM and Ford are finally in a fighting mood while the J3 are looking to keep what they've gained. Fiat/Chrysler? Who knows.
  • I agree that in the past Toyota's were in most cases not known for innovative design, engineering or styling. However I love the styling of my 1990 Celica ST. But that is besides the point. Before I bought my Celica in 1990 my research ( no internet back then) showed that Toyota tended to overdesign their vehicles with proven or older technology. Overdesign meaning using say pistons, engine blocks, water pumps, alternators, etc that were rated significantly higher than their service requirements in an engine. While not providing the best power and acceleration, they lasted a very long time. But I found cheap plastics always existed on Toyota interiors and dashboards even during the 80's.

    I think many people bought Toyota's in the 80's and 90's for their long life and lack of problems for the first 100,000 miles or 10 years. There are many reports of Toyota's and Honda's that last 200,000 or in some cases 300,000 miles running on a their original small displacement 4 cylinder engines. Although I cannot verify whether these claims are true my limited anecdotal experience with my 19 and a half year old Celica and Civic is enough proof for me.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,621
    on another site, a guy posted that if you whisper the magic words, your toyota can fly.
    if toyota has a fail safe throttle, why? oh, never mind.
    get the pedal cut off and move up to average. other vehicles just don't have that element of excitement built in.
    better hope the hook doesn't fail. this part of the post is not sarcastic.
  • "I think many people bought Toyota's in the 80's and 90's for their long life and lack of problems"

    I agree, I had an 86 toyota 4x4 that I bought new and ran it for 140,000 miles. It was built like a tank and I think all I did is a set of tires and a set of front brake pads and that was it. The problem with Toyota and Honda is the recent experience. Just look at their forums and you will that they are overrun with problems. Oil sludge, Transmission, recalls, VCM Vibration, electrical, sticky gas pedal and so on.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,621
    back then, vehicles were a lot simpler.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    My buddy who's now on his third Prius traded No 2 at 246,000 miles last July on one of the new Gen 3's. I'm at 137,000 miles in 4y1m and plan to drive it another 135,000 miles over the next 4 yrs.

    My 97 Camry went to 185,000 before the tranny became a little clunky when I traded it.

    150,000 to 250,000 miles isn't anything super remarkable with today's simpler engines. They hybrids have an especially easy life. The ICE's only run ( more like amble ) about 70% of the time. The MG's will outlast the interiors and the ICE's.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,667
    Simply, the throttle does not have a mind of its own and will not go wide open. Again, if the pedal sensor and the electronics do not match, the throttle will not open - the electronics have a fail-safe system.

    The problem was a Lexus dealer and a few others that put mats on top of mats and/or did not use the hooks. NO evidence of anything else - NONE, but keep speculating :sick: . This caused the pedal to stick down. Toyota is only guilty of having a pedal that is closer to the floor than some others - nothing else. I have said this before. However, this close to the floor pedal will never cause a problem if you use the hooks and only use one mat.

    I have also said time and time again that I had a Mazda and Ford over 10+ years ago that had floor mats that caused the gas pedal to stick down. The mats DID NOT HAVE hooks. I went out and bought floor mat clips at the store - never had a problem again. This could have caused a huge problem, but thankfully it did not.

    I could start speculating about the F150 SUA reports, but I won't, not worth it, and I wish Ford the best, along with everyone else. I will say that from what I read, certain vehicles have excitement built in, even when turned off ;) . No sarcasm with my next statement - if you have one of these 4.5 million vehicles with the cruise control switch that can catch fire, please get it fixed.

    I have 300,000+ miles experience first-hand experience with the hooks, (some cars over 100,000 miles and over 10 years.) The hooks have never failed, and everyone I know has not had one fail either. Also, if it does fail, the sharp rubber spikes on the bottom of the mats really stick into the carpet - they don't move. Other family members' Toyotas - mats NEVER have moved, hooks NEVER have broken (at least 600,000+ miles second-hand experience). All mats have the sharp rubber spikes on the bottom. Yes, these are just my experiences, but I don't recall reading any complaints about the hooks breaking on the sites I visit on the net, and my local Toyota service manger agrees that the hooks are great, no issues. I told you, I am concerned about my family's safety, and I do my homework. Thanks for the concern.

    By the way, I spoke with my local Toyota service mgr again over the holiday while waiting at a restaurant. His comment was that this whole thing about the mats, pedals, etc. is a bunch of way overblown, media crap, and he completely agrees with me that there is no problem if you use the hooks and don't use more than one mat. He also said that the Lexus dealer should be shut down for causing this whole mess, and he's tired of having to explain to everyone that their Toyotas won't try to kill them. He had a lot of choice words about that dealer!! This guy is a straight shooter, no BS. If Toyota had screwed up, he would have no problem saying it. Friend of the family for decades, way before he was a Toyota service mgr.

    I'm done here, I am going back to not reading this post - not worth it. Have a Happy New Year to ALL, even if you hate Toyota!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    As reported here TMC doesn't think much of LA Times ethics and methods. Good info ITT.

    Note how the LAT completely misphrased the question about the Saylor accident omitting some key information.

    Q2: Toyota has conducted numerous recalls related to sudden acceleration over the past decade in the U.S. and Canada, including two previous floor mat recalls. But the problem has continued. Does this mean that the previous recalls were not successful in eliminating the problems and if so, why not? In particular, why wasn't the 2007 recall of Lexus ES and Camry floor mats effective in preventing catastrophic accidents such as the Saylor case?

    [A2:] Toyota has conducted two all-weather floor mat (AWFM) recalls after receiving reports that if the floor mat (either by itself, or if it is placed on top of an existing carpeted floor mat) is not secured by the retaining hooks, the mat can move
    forward and interfere with the accelerator pedal returning to the idle position. If the mat is properly secured, it will not interfere with the accelerator pedal.

    As reported in the law enforcement investigation, the floor mat in the Saylor accident was not only improperly secured, it was incompatible and incorrect for the vehicle. The recall recently announced addresses the fact that incompatible floor mats, or multiple floor mats could be installed and that the remedy must address that possibility

    Because as noted by mcdawgg the Lexus dealer screwed up big time.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    I could start speculating about the F150 SUA reports, but I won't

    You could and not find any facts to back it up. Toyota and Lexus have more reports of SUA than all other Automakers combined. It very well could be mats. Well that seems to me to be Toyota's problem. And now the NHTSA thinks so too. Though they have been real slow admitting it.

    I got a notice from Ford about my 99 Ford Ranger in the mail on the fire issue. Went down and had it done in less than five minutes. My question is how Ford knew I owned that truck? I am the second owner and the first owner is dead. Plus I have moved since I bought it. Now that is REAL customer service.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    in 1990 my research ( no internet back then) showed that Toyota tended to overdesign their vehicles

    Yes, and that is the reason the late 80s and early 90s Toyotas lasted so long. But that is not true any longer. The cost-cutting of the 90s was all about making everything last just as long as it needed to and absolutely no longer. The same thing happened at Honda, and that is why the late 80-s and early 90s will prove to be the peak for both companies with regard to durability.

    But Akio Toyoda (the new head cheese) claims to be a car fan, and that he wants to turn the Toyota ship a bit, so we will see if they can avert the steady erosion of their reputation under his leadership.

    I did 10 minutes of car shopping at the local Kia dealer tonight and holy crap! They are expensive! $20K for a Cube with rims or the new Forte compact sedan? Toyota's pricing, even though it feels high in some cases, is really very competitive, and will be their key to continued sales for a while. I just hope they are making profitable sales at these prices....and of course for their customers, resale value is gradually becoming more and more of an issue.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,089
    >99 Ford Ranger in the mail on the fire issue.... My question is how Ford knew I owned that truck?

    State registration records? RL Polk? Do they collect registration information. I remember ads from some company that some high percentage of all its vehicles ever sold were still on the road which I believe meant they were still being registered annually.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,089
    >>I could start speculating about the F150 SUA reports, but I won't

    >You could and not find any facts to back it up. Toyota and Lexus have more >reports of SUA than all other Automakers

    While driving over this vacation fromDayton to Murfreesboro TN to Plymouth, Michigan, I've kept my eyes open for cars behind or off to the side that seem to be out of control in terms of speed. I don't want to be a victim of the next runaway Toyota product, with or without the red herring floor mat excuse.

    While in Michigan, I reminded the mother-in-law of our friends whom we visited that her Camry may be prone to an acceleration problem. She doesn't have any floor mats.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    From the NYT Wheels blog today.
    Toyota adversary withdraws cases

    In September, Todd Tracy, a Dallas lawyer with a history of suing Toyota, filed a lawsuit asking a United States District Court judge to reopen 17 of Mr. Tracy’s cases against the automaker. The suit came on the heels of another lawsuit, one filed by Dimitrios Biller, a former Toyota lawyer who accused the automaker of engaging in a conspiracy to obstruct justice by not turning over incriminating documents in hundreds of product-liability suits brought against it nationwide.

    Mr. Tracy argued that his clients’ cases should be reopened because the awards or settlements might have been different had the documents cited by Mr. Biller been available. Mr. Tracy also issued a news release asking for a Congressional investigation and urging American consumers and the legal profession to “rise up to get Toyota to tell the truth about its hidden crash safety data.”

    Well, on second thought …

    Mr. Tracy now says he has examined four boxes of documents that Mr. Biller says were improperly withheld — and he has changed his mind. Last week, he notified the court of his wish to withdraw the suit.

    “I did not see any type of concealment, destruction or pattern of discovery abuse that affected my cases that I had sought to reopen,” Mr. Tracy said in a statement dated Thursday. “Lawyers have a legal and professional responsibility to pursue cases that are meritorious. The documents I reviewed did not provide evidence sufficient to me to continue prosecuting these cases at this time.”


    "Just the facts ma'am, just the facts." [Joe Friday]
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,641
    While driving over this vacation fromDayton to Murfreesboro TN to Plymouth, Michigan, I've kept my eyes open for cars behind or off to the side that seem to be out of control in terms of speed. I don't want to be a victim of the next runaway Toyota product, with or without the red herring floor mat excuse.

    Are you serious! LOL, your far more likely to rear end the car in front of you while taking your eye's off the traffic looking for killer Toyota products.

    Instead of worrying about Toyota UIA, you should be far more worried about the idiot behind the wheel sexting their friends!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    "Just the facts ma'am, just the facts." [Joe Friday]

    I agree, where are the facts? Statements by a lawyer are NOT FACTS. We may never know what was in those boxes. Just like we may never be privy to the EDR data in the Saylor crash. Toyota has a history of paying off to avoid disclosure. Do you have any proof this was not the case with attorneys Biller and Tracy? How much am I bid for these 4 boxes of incriminating documents? The beauty of selling the boxes of documents back to Toyota, is the two attorneys do not have to share with anyone else.

    I know you have been on jury duty. The judge always warns that statements by attorneys are NOT FACTS. Only evidence should be considered. And do you think the 4 boxes in question will be revealed to the public, now that they are not going to be used as evidence?
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,184
    Sounds more like a good and careful lawyer to me. With that statement, you have to wonder if Biller's case is going to fade away too.

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,089
    Here's a readout from a Ford black box after a policeman's crash a couple months back.

    Why should it take so long for Toyota and the Sheriff to get inital data findings out. This is a final report. Other than the "scientist" trying to pretend his data gives accuracy to ten-thousandths of a mile per hour in a calculation and that the 6 places are all meaningful (!!!!), it's very interesting information.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/24589639/Investigation-Part-2
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/24589639/Investigation-Part-1
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    My personal experiences with the SD County Sheriff's, especially the Santee Sheriffs which are probably the ones handling the case you mention, is that they are inept, incompetent, worthless, and useless.

    So that answers your question as to why they would be "taking too long" to do anything of use. They don't protect and serve, they generate contempt with suspiciously ridiculous revenue generation systems of enforcement.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    The cases may go away. Someone will get paid you can bet on that. Biller was dumped as a top attorney by Toyota. So he has an axe to grind and probably a legitimate case against Toyota. Tracy has 17 cases that he can re-open if Toyota does not come across with some serious money.

    A former attorney for Toyota has accused the automaker of illegally withholding evidence in hundreds of rollover death and injury cases, in a "ruthless conspiracy" to keep evidence "of its vehicles' structural shortcomings from becoming known."

    The explosive allegations are contained in a federal racketeering suit filed in Los Angeles by Dimitrios P. Biller, former managing counsel for Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc., who claims his complaints about the company's legal misconduct cost him his job.
    CBS Story

    I don't imagine Biller was a low priced ambulance chaser working for Toyota as a top attorney.

    Mr. Tracy said in a statement dated Thursday. “Lawyers have a legal and professional responsibility to pursue cases that are meritorious.

    So when Tracy sued Toyota several times in the past. Were the cases all meritorious?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    You mean with there motoX bike riding deputies? I agree with your assessment of the Santee Sheriffs.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I posted the link before but it seems that nobody got all the way through the article on Autoblog. The answer is in Toyota's reply to the LA Times. To make it clearer...

    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/26/toyota-responds-to-the-la-times-article/4

    Q6: Toyota maintains that it cannot share information on its Event Data Recorders with vehicle owners because there is only one diagnostic tool capable of reading the information. Is that still accurate, that there is only one such tool in the entire country?

    [A6:] Toyota does not yet have a commercially available Event Data Recorders (EDR) readout tool and its tool is currently a prototype. There is only one prototype readout tool in the U.S. Toyota performs EDR readouts for law enforcement under certain circumstances. We are also occasionally ordered by various courts to perform EDR readouts. A readout for law enforcement is a community service that Toyota performs. Toyota does not have the capacity to perform readouts using its one prototype tool in all cases.

    Federal regulators have required that by September 1, 2012, Toyota and all other manufacturers which have EDRs in their vehicles will be required to make a data retrieval tool commercially available. Toyota will, of course, comply with this
    requirement.

    The vehicle in the Padilla case that you referenced did not have an EDR. It had a G-Force Data Recorder (GDR), which is a primitive deceleration-force measuring device that only assists with airbag deployment. The GDR was never designed nor intended to be used for accident reconstruction purposes.


    Q7: Under California state law and laws in a number of other states, EDR data belongs to the vehicle owner, yet Toyota has repeatedly told customers that the data is proprietary. Who does the data belong to? Did the 2005 federal court ruling in Padilla vs. Toyota change the way that Toyota shares EDR data?

    [A7:] As to EDR data ownership, such ownership varies state by state. As explained previously, the prototype software used by Toyota to perform EDR readouts is proprietary, as is the case with all auto manufacturers. Toyota does not contend that the EDR readout data is proprietary. When a data retrieval tool is commercially available, any data retrieved will then as now be subject to applicable state law.

    Q8: In the course of NHTSA's drafting the rule on EDRs, Toyota raised numerous objections to both the proposed rule and the original version of the final rule, including limiting the number and time range of data points captured. Why would Toyota oppose such requirements?

    [A8:] The assertion that Toyota opposed the EDR rule is flatly wrong. As a careful and fair review of the rule-making record will reflect, Toyota in fact supported the establishment of the EDR rule and urged that the EDR rule be simplified to prevent other electronic components unrelated to the EDR to be unintentionally affected by the rule.

    While Toyota and other members of the auto industry raised concerns with some details of the proposed EDR rule, many of those concerns were resolved in the final rule with which Toyota is fully preparing to comply. Indeed, Toyota proposed and Federal regulators generally accepted the notion that EDR retrieval tools should be made available through mandatory license to licensees outside of the manufacturer's control. Toyota's purpose in its proposal was to make EDR retrieval more widely available while protecting proprietary information.


    Q9: According to your web site, Toyota's EDRs are capable of recording data including brake pedal application and degree of application of accelerator pedal, among other things. That data would appear to be useful in determining possible causes in the Saylor case, as well as in other similar cases. But according to the Sheriff's report, that data has not been accessed in that case. Does Toyota intend to access that data to help it make a determination, and does it plan to release that data?

    [A9:] The EDR is capable of recording only the previous several seconds of activity before and/or a fraction of a second after a crash or near-crash situation. At the Sheriff's request and with the agreement of all interested parties, Toyota agreed to perform a readout of the EDR in the Saylor vehicle. In the presence of representatives of all interested parties and the Sheriff's department, Toyota attempted to perform the readout as agreed. However, due to the extensive damage to the EDR unit from the crash, it was impossible to perform a readout. We suggest you confirm this fact with the San Diego Sheriff's Department which retains custody of the EDR to this day.

    Q10: Has Toyota used EDR data to aid investigation of any other alleged unintended or sudden acceleration cases? If so, what did the data show? Has Toyota shared EDR data with NHTSA for its investigations? If so, in what cases? Has Toyota extracted any data from EDRs that shed any light on SA or UA cases?

    [A10:] Given the fact that the readout tool is a prototype and has not been validated, it is Toyota's policy not to use EDR data in its investigations. However, Toyota has used the readout tool under certain circumstances. One such circumstance is the Saylor matter described in the answer above. In another circumstance, a court ordered Toyota to use the readout tool in a litigation. The readout data was consistent in that case with Toyota's position that the unintended acceleration was caused by the driver's foot on the accelerator pedal.

    Finally, Federal regulators at times requested EDR readouts and Toyota has in each instance complied with these requests in order to assist the agency. Toyota will continue to comply with requests from regulators to perform readouts


    Answer #9.

    How about Answer #10. In one case the EDR data was able to be retreived and it showed that the issue was foot pressure on the gas pedal. 'Smoking gun'.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    The MotoX bike-riding deputies of the Santee Sheriff's department would be the worst offenders, but don't completely outrule the ones in full-size vehicles either.
  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    again, you sidestep the discussion and go off on some tangent about predicted sales. So i guess what you are trying to say is no matter how cheap toyota makes their cars, toyota believes people will still flock to the dealers to buy them. By the way i couldnt help but notice that you never mentioned the tundra,how is that working out?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    You, like the LA Times, conveniently omit some significant side facts.

    In his suit, Mr. Biller has acknowledged that his conflict with the automaker about turning over documents resulted in psychiatric problems, including depression, and led to his departure from the company.

    Other court records show that in 2008, Mr. Biller worked for several months for the Los Angeles district attorney’s office. In May 2009, he filed a suit against that office claiming he had been wrongfully discharged, had been slandered and had been the victim of unfair business practices. In its filings, the district attorney’s office denied Mr. Biller’s assertions, but acknowledged he was dismissed and given a negative job evaluation.


    Not the stable kind of person that I'd like to hang my cases on. This is especially so that when Tracy reviewed Biller's data he found......nothing. Ooops. Time to retract everything he said previouisly. Biller is a loose and unstable cannon that no self-respecting lawyer would want to be involved with. Tracy seems to be a solid respectable adversary.

    "Nothing to see here, move on"
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    OMG...DING!!!! Sir you have come to the Eureka moment of your life.

    Yes you are exactly correct. For the vast majority of buyers they hate autos, they hate everything about them. They want them to go from A to B and never be seen. They do not want to pay anything for them yet they want them to be problem free. They don't want to read about them, think about them, care about them. If there is a problem fix it and don't bother me about it.

    If my current ride causes me no problems and costs me next to nothing in maintenance and causes me nothing in extra costs I'll probably stick with it forever. You'll have to dynamite the steering wheel away from my cold dead fingers.

    With 30 to 40 million hugely satisfied buyers looking at their own experiences all that can be said about these isolated incidents is .... "It's somebody else's problem, not mine. Mine works fine and has worked fine for it's entire life. Why should I change?" People are basically self-centered. That's what matters most.

    I mentioned the industry leading models. There's a lot of them, more than any other maker in fact. No maker is going to win every segment. Besides Toyota has the financial strength and long range view to see down the road 5-10-15 yrs. We'll revisit the other models at that time.

    It's tough to see another view opposed to all the doom and gloom that you'd like to see isn't it?
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