Toyota on the mend?

tsu670 · February 2010

Just a few thoughts for Toyota to regain customer support:

1. Publicly announce that they will add "Smart Pedal" (where brake overrides accelerator) to all new and recalled vehicles starting now.
2. Bump up the factory powertrain warranty, including their ECTS (Electrically Controlled Throttle System), to 10 years/100k miles. If Toyota quality is that good, then stand by it.
3. Get back to focusing on doing what it takes to be known for quality and reliability, instead of trying to be the largest car company in the world.

4. Other ideas on this forum... please chime in.

revit · February 2010

5. Get rid of the arrogant attitude of "We are superior to all other automakers"
6. Consumers get rid of the notion that Toyota is the benchmark; no questions asked
7. Stop covering up issues with Toyota models
8. Stop trying to blame Toyota problems on the owner and/or suppliers

kernick · February 2010

A car is not peanut butter, nor is it spinach, nor Tylenol.

All right we're off to a good start.

But you don't understand what can cause a recall of a product. A whole batch of Tylenol does not have to be contaminated to trigger a recall. If there was 1 and only 1 bottle of deadly, contaminated Tylenol out of millions on the shelves in the U.S. 1 bad and 4,999,999 good, they all get pulled. You CAN NOT say well it's only 1 death that will result. They're all recalled.

(I worked at a pharmaceutical plant for a few years, and we made about 30,000 syringes at a time. If there were only 29,999 directions used - nothing wrong with product, just the slip of paper you can get from another box - the syringes were quarantined. Each and every box was opened by hand until the 1 box without the slip of paper was found, and then the 30,000 syringes were released.

Each and every syringe was expected to be perfect.

Similarly it is not acceptable to have a product with a known defect that can kill or injure because of the defect, to be sold.

revit · February 2010

Toyotas shifting stories raise credibility issues

What did they know and when did they know it? That is a question circling around Toyota executives as the world's largest automaker grapples with widening safety issues engulfing the company's most popular models.

The Japanese automakers credibility has been showing stretches and strains ever since it first announced, last September, that it would recall 3.8 million vehicles due to a problem it described as carpet entrapment, a situation in which loose floor mats could snag the accelerator pedal and send a vehicle racing out of control. That came shortly after a California accident that killed a family of four, including an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer.

At the time, company officials dismissed those who contended the reports of sudden acceleration might have to do with something other than floor mats. Bob Carter, general manager of the company's Toyota division, insisted such claims were unwarranted speculation.

Then Jan. 21 the automaker announced a recall for 2.3 million vehicles, most of which were already affected by the carpet recall, saying they could face potential problems with "sticking accelerator pedal mechanisms." Soon after, the carmaker also announced it would temporarily idle five North American plants and order a halt to sales of eight of its most popular models.

But senior Toyota executives dismissed reports that the sudden acceleration issues might involve onboard engine controllers and other digital systems. We have found no evidence electronic systems can fail, declared Jim Lentz, president of Toyota Motor Sales USA, during a Monday news conference. He added that there are numerous backups and failsafes even if a computer control system did malfunction.

Toyota's shifting positions have given pause to critics, including Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, who has taken an unusually outspoken position on Toyotas mounting woes in recent days. On Tuesday, he declared the maker a little safety deaf and a day later suggested, during a hearing on Capitol Hill, that owners of recalled products should stop driving them. He later backpedaled on that comment but said his agency would continue to "hold Toyota's feet to the fire."

Those who might have come to the automakers defense are finding it more difficult especially in the light of developments involving the Toyota Prius, the worlds most popular hybrid-electric vehicle.

Reports of a potential safety problem with the gas-electric sedan first surfaced Dec. 24 when a small automotive site, TheDetroitBureau.com, (which, in full disclosure, I publish), reported that a growing number of customers had filed complaints involving the braking system of the 2010 Prius. The affected owners reported that when the Prius hit a bump, pothole or patch of ice, it would suddenly feel, as New York owner Robert Becker described it, like the brakes had released.

At the time, Toyota downplayed the complaints, suggesting they might simply be the result of inexperienced drivers unfamiliar with anti-lock brakes. In fact, it was anything but. After stonewalling the media and owners for nearly six weeks, Toyota suddenly reversed course Wednesday.

Toyota is currently in the process of confirming these reports and investigating the vehicle driving conditions under which the reported phenomenon occurs," the company said in a terse statement. "It would be premature to comment until the investigation has been completed."

Later Thursday, Toyota also said it was investigating possible brake problems in their Lexus HS250h hybrid which uses the same brake system as the Prius.

That might have satisfied critics, at least until Thursday morning, Tokyo time, when the automaker revised its story yet again. This time, it not only admitted there was a defect, but made the startling revelation that it had already found the source of the problem and fixed it on third-generation Prius sedans that have been rolling down its assembly lines for weeks.

So far, Toyota has declined to reveal the specific details of the fix nor given a precise timeline on when it concluded there was a defect, began work on the solution and made the necessary changes on the production line.

The change in attitude apparently began in December, according to Hiroyuki Yokoyama, general manager of Toyotas customer quality engineering division. He told Japans Nikkei newspaper that as the weather got colder, the complaints became more common and Toyota recognized it needed to do something.

"We did not intend to cover up the issue, Yokoyama said.

Whats also missing, so far, is confirmation that the company will deal with vehicles built before the fix was in, so to speak, a sizable fleet. Nikkei reported Wednesday from Japan that Toyota intends to recall 270,000 Priuses in the United States and Japan, but Toyota's U.S. executives were unable to confirm that.

Auto industry analysts say Toyota is now in serious danger of suffering a long-term hit to its credibility and reputation.

The question is "whether consumers will no longer see this as a one-time problem and start to see it as systemic," said Dave Sargent, director of research for J.D. Power and Associates.

The Prius problems are particularly troubling for the company, said Joe Phillippi, of AutoTrends Consulting.

These are Toyotas most loyal buyers, he said. "This is their halo vehicle and Prius owners are the ones most likely to talk up Toyota -- or talk it down."

Toyota executives are likely to hear a lot more questions in the weeks to come.

LaHood, for example, has confirmed that the government is investigating potential electronic problems in the Toyota vehicles.

And LaHood's department is now holding a magnifying glass to other statements the automaker has made. LaHood said in an interview with the Associated Press, referring to Toyota executives, that federal safety officials had to "wake them up" to the seriousness of safety issues affecting the company's cars.

"They should have taken it seriously from the very beginning when we first started discussing it with them," LaHood said, noting that regulators found support among Toyotas American management but had to go to Tokyo to pressure officials at corporate headquarters to go along with a recall.

The latest developments are particularly bad news for Akio Toyoda, the automakers president and CEO and member of the founding family which started out in the textile business  with the different spelling of the name.

When Toyoda took over Toyota, early last year, he inherited a company with some unexpectedly serious problems. It reported a record loss for the year that ended March 31, 2009, and, to the new chief executive, was becomin

explorerx4 · February 2010

have the waters crept over another levee?

stever · February 2010

That's the brakes.

And they have company (and I don't mean the Prius).

"While the vehicles maintain full braking capability, customers may initially perceive the condition as loss of brakes."

Ford Announces Fusion, Milan Hybrid Brake Fix (AutoObserver)

gagrice · February 2010

A high percentage of the 2010 Prius have been reported including injury accidents. With 124 reports on 37,000 Prius you have 1 in 298 chance of a braking problem. Not great odds.

Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Toyota has added the brake systems of the latest Lexus hybrid vehicles to a growing list of problems with various models, the company said Friday.

The company said it was checking the brakes on the Lexus vehicles -- as well as a Japanese model called the Sai -- because they use the same system as that used on the 2010 Toyota Prius.

The Fusion/Milan's issue seemed less serious than that of the Prius, said David Champion, the head of auto testing at Consumer Reports.

The NHTSA investigation involves only 2010 model year Prius hybrids, which went on sale in the middle of last year. There are only 37,000 of those vehicles on the road, according to the agency.

NHTSA said its Office of Defects investigation has received 124 reports from consumers about problems with the Prius brakes, including four reports that involved crashes and two that resulted in injuries. No fatalities have been reported. Investigators have spoken with consumers and conducted preliminary field work.

Are the US highways safe allowing all these runaway Toyotas, Lexus and Hybrids with no brakes to be out there? :sick:

lilengineerboy · February 2010

"While the vehicles maintain full braking capability, customers may initially perceive the condition as loss of brakes."

So the brakes work fine? The dash just freaks out? Bizarre.

doggrandma · February 2010

There is a thread in these forums about unintended acceleration in the Hyundai Santa Fe. It soulds like the same problem Toyota has.

Do all cars have these same throttle control systems (if that is what they're called)?

revit · February 2010

have the waters crept over another levee?

Yes, and looks like the flooding will continue.

Found this to be interesting too: Toyota knew of unintended-accelration in the Lexus ES 350 since 2007

Toyota and the NHTSA have been aware of unintended-acceleration incidents with regard to the Lexus ES 350 since at least 2007. Regulators concluded that it was due to a floor mat defect, a recall of about 55,000 floor mats was declared, and the case as closed.

Jim Lentz, president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., told congressional investigators that the company first knew of sticking accelerator problems in October, and Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., is unhappy with the contradiction, and citing his awareness of reports that disclose sticky accelerator issues dated as early as 2004, is calling into question ToMoCos candidness and honesty.

A hearing is scheduled for February 25th whereby Toyota will answer questions before congress.

We believe our statements have been consistent, and we will endeavor to explain this to the committees next week, Toyota spokeswoman Cindy Knight said in response to Stupaks statements.

In a letter to Toyota this week, Stupak and Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., have asked the company to reconcile conflicting statements as company officials have mentioned in private conversation with congressional committee staff members that there were internal doubts as to the causes of the issue.

In a separate letter from Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., Toyota was asked to furnish information dating back to 2001 pertaining to complaints of unintended acceleration and other matters.

kernick · February 2010

Bizarre maybe, but predictable certainly. Any mathematicians here who would like to weigh-in, that all else being constant the number of problems will increase with the complexity of the system (number of parts or lines of code).

The Space Shuttle is a great example. It takes months to get one ready for a singe-launch, and it doesn't have a great safety record when it does.

beachfish2 · February 2010

Does anyone know if Astronauts are allowed to text and talk on the phone during launch and re-entry?

John

beachfish2 · February 2010

I'm feeling safer in my new Highlander because Ray LaHood is looking out for me.

"LaHood studied education and sociology at Bradley University... He taught junior high..."

houdini1 · February 2010

I thought maybe you meant "macaroon".

houdini1 · February 2010

LOL, after Woz making a complete fool of himself on "Dancing with the Stars" I would have thought he would be keeping a lower profile.

gagrice · February 2010

Woz dancing in public creates a scary picture in my mind. Prius drivers can't dance. :shades:
He should stick to lecturing the Geek squad.

dturr · February 2010

Akio Toyoda came out of the woodwork today, You would think this guy would be in the US 'making it right' in the biggest ever crisis for Toyota.

revit · February 2010

Prius drivers can't dance

Unfortunately, the cannot stop their cars either.

larsb · February 2010

Har-Har-Har-Dee-Har-Har.

revit · February 2010

Daniel Howes
What will they drive up to the red carpet at this year's Oscars?

Probably not a Toyota Prius, as in years past, that green machine-[non-permissible content removed]-technological tour de force that says "look at my driver" in a faintly superior way. Because the iconic gas-electric hybrid that defined a market segment is becoming ensnared in Toyota Motor Corp.'s widening global recall scandal, potentially imperiling the automaker's standing with America's intelligentsia and glitterati all at the same time.

Right before our eyes -- in less time than two Detroit automakers rushed through bankruptcy and reset their competitive balance -- mighty Toyota is proving itself to be just another boring global car company beset with its own clique of executives who believe their fawning press clippings and engineers who cut corners to achieve aggressive expansion goals.

Welcome to the club, fellas.

anythngbutgm · February 2010

mighty Toyota is proving itself to be just another boring global car company

Oh c'mon, this stuff isn't boring! Think of how much "excitment" is now asssociated with the Toyota nameplate because of all this :P

larsb · February 2010

What will they drive to the red carpet this year?

Nissan Leaf

revit · February 2010

Nissan Leaf

Good to hear, at least it will stop instead of going right past the red carpet.

revit · February 2010

Think of how much "excitment" is now asssociated with the Toyota nameplate because of all this

Excitement? More like PITY! To the point the President of Toyota has bad away from the whole thing as he has tried to denial it all along. What a shame to those who have and will continue to lose their life or be injured from all of this. The only so called "excitement" I can see is a new day has dawn, finally Toyota's arrogance has caught up to them and no longer is there any reason to pay more and get less. Honda and Nissan haven to be eating all this up..."told you so", "told you so"

windjammer · February 2010

Just curious. Are you being paid by the word for all your negative criticism of Toyota?? .

Windjammer

revit · February 2010

Are you being paid by the word for all your negative criticism of Toyota??

Just an unhappy 2009 Toyota Camry owner trying to get the truth out and set the record straight; something Toyota has so desperately tried to avoid. :surprise:

larsb · February 2010

What are you unhappy about? Is your car part of the recall? Just get it fixed then. Nothing to be unhappy about. Carmakers have recalls every year.

The press has made this into a much huger deal than it should have been.

revit · February 2010

Is your car part of the recall?

Yes, ah, which one. This is not something I expected with Toyota. They "sold" me on being different, even better than Honda. Now it comes out they have lied and covered up all these problems for years.

What's most concerning? What we don't yet know...knowing Toyota I am sure there is plenty more that will come forth before all is said and done.

How has the press made this a huger deal than what it should have been????

You are talking about peoples lives here...those that have died and been injury because of Toyota living in denial; great for them, bad for us consumers.

Any other automaker would not have been as concerning, but based on the arrogance Toyota has established for too long, recalls go against EVERYTHING Toyota has been their reputation on. Without it, they are no different than Ford, GM, Honda, etc.

larsb · February 2010

Well, there are two ways to proceed if you are upset.

1. Accept that Toyota is now doing things right and move on.
2. Keep holding a grudge and let it eat at you.

Most people with healthy attitudes will choose the 1st option.

It's less of a problem that made out to be because a recall of xxx million cars IMPLIES that ALL those cars have the problem. But they don't. Only some of them do.

Did you think 'Yota was "so arrogant" before this? Before you bought your Toyota cars? If you like their product enough to buy it, then you shouldn't complain that they are arrogant.

lemko · February 2010

Maybe it's because he drank the Toyota Koolaid only to find out it's been poisoned.

larsb · February 2010

Well, it wasn't Koolaid when it was TRUE.

All those years Toyota was touted as best quality blah blah blah it was because it was TRUE.

Their quality may have slipped LATELY, but there is no debate that they made some of the best cars in the last 20 years.

revit · February 2010

Maybe it's because he drank the Toyota Koolaid only to find out it's been poisoned.

More like I fell into the same trap as all they others who are upset over the fiasco.

Above all, hard to tell what else is still forthcoming, that is what concerns me.

First they denied everything, then blamed the consumer, then floor mat, then the pedals, now the electronics. With a record like that, how can anyone believe they are telling us the whole story and only imagine what other problem they have known, but won't inform the customers. :lemon:

revit · February 2010

Their quality may have slipped LATELY, but there is no debate that they made some of the best cars in the last 20 years.

See, it is that sort of rubbish that has caused this problem. Even with all the problems now, their quality MAY have slipped???????????? :confuse:

larsb · February 2010

Is there a perfect carmaker?

Is there anyone who has never had a recall since the inception of the company?

All Toyota did was show themselves to be less than perfect.

All the derision is inflated because they are Number One and people LOVE to take down the Big Dog.

revit · February 2010

Is there a Perfect carmaker? By no means.

But Toyota came to as close to this mentally in perceiving themself as second to; not something Honda or Nissan have ever tried to claim.

As many have said, be careful what you ask for! The desire was to be #1 first, but put quality second or lower to what built their reputation to begin with.

BTW, People didn't take down the "Big Dog", Toyota brought this on all by themself. You are talking peoples lives that have been forever impacted due to a death or inquiry in the family. Toyota chose to look the other way and deny it all along, putting the blame on the owner.

No offense, but whatever happens to them, they have no one but themself to blame; not the media, not Obama, or all the other excuses people have tried. Toyota built their palace, now its time for them to live in it.

larsb · February 2010

Well, regardless of your feelings, it's probably time to move on and get over it. Toyota is now doing what it needs to do, better late than never. (I know, those people who died can't say it's better late than never, but we can't bring those lives back, so at this point we should just move on.)

Toyota will get suitably sued, but in the meantime, they need to get their cars fixed. They are doing that.

Just like death and other bad things in life, this too shall pass.

lilengineerboy · February 2010

Documents in Toyota conspiracy case could be made public soon

What the heck is going on?

Its weird, the Japanese companies are usually very sharp about learning from other's past mistakes. They reverse engineer and then optimize a component continuously improving it. This seems so weird to even read about now; they must have learned though the pain of others in the past.

Oh well, as they say, mistakes are the only thing you can truly call your own.

larsb · February 2010

Wow, if that's true, it's a devastating blow to them.

"Ignoring" safety complaints is bad enough.

But intentionally covering them up and not fixing them after they knew about it?
Much, Much worse.

revit · February 2010

True, but at this point, the consumer really doesn't know the true story and what all may or may not be a problem with their car because Toyota never likes to disclose this. Therefore, in my book, Toyota cannot be trusted and consumers should think twice about it before buying one.

gagrice · February 2010

I thought Toyota claimed Biller a crackpot with no evidence of any consequence. If so why is Toyota fighting in the courts to keep the evidence sealed from the public? Must be something in there they don't want us to see.

A California court ruled last August that the documents must remain confidential, but that decision could be overturned in the coming days as the case in now under final review. Both Toyota and Biller made their final filings on the case late last month.

Whether Toyota was actually involved in a cover up remains to be seen, but Biller believes he has the evidence to prove a Toyota conspiracy. Toyota is a very secretive corporation. It doesnt believe anybody outside the corporation deserves to know what is going on inside, even if it kills somebody, Biller told the Los Angeles Times.

windy025 · February 2010

i'm sure theres nothing to this "conspiracy",
the floormat recall fixed the problems, oh and the gas pedal "fix" fixed the problems too. oh and were adding the brake override fix but the engine management has nothing to do with it.
All you owners all you need to know is "In toyota you rust....err trust."

gagrice · February 2010

Welcome to the forum a fresh sense of humor is always welcome....

windjammer · February 2010

Just an unhappy 2009 Toyota Camry owner trying to get the truth out and set the record straight; something Toyota has so desperately tried to avoid.

WOW!! I would never have guessed that by your lengthily, repetitive and negative postings. You sound like the entire woes of Toyota are aimed directly at you alone.

Windjammer

kernick · February 2010

But intentionally covering them up and not fixing them after they knew about it?
Much, Much worse.

Hey!!!!!! Glad to see the common-sense here of questioning whether we're being lied to by a powerful corporation, rather than just blindly believeing them, when there are now so many complaints, retractions, corrections, and trying to withhold documents, from Toyota.

doggrandma · February 2010

There have been some clouds in Toyota's skies prior to this. I remember the sludge issue that Toyota also ignored until it could no longer be concealed. Unfortunately, things have been going south for Toyota for some time now.

greg128 · February 2010

My business accociate daughter's 2001 Tacoma was just in for service
at her dealer (only 60,000 miles). She was informed that she would be
unable to pick up her truck because of frame rust. It was unsafe to drive.
They offered her a great trade in amont on a new one, but she declined
insisting it had low mileage and wanted to keep it. They subsequently
replaced the frame (at a cost of approximately $14,000 to Toyota).

I think that almost every 8-15 year old Tacoma or Tundra on the road
will eventually be undrivable due to the frame rust problem they are
experiencing. I commend Toyota for trying to satisfy their customers
with replacement frames and trade-in buyouts. (Any trucks traded
are destroyed as far as I can tell).

How much money can Toyota continue to throw at this problem
especially in light of the UA recalls and inevitable lawsuits?

I won't even address the sludge problems. I think that is the reason
they overcharged for their cars. But they can't anymore. I think
they are in big trouble.

imidazol97 · February 2010

I thought the thread is about Toyota on the MEnd for 2010 and not about other posters.

Scroll over their posts is an easy way if you happen to still disagree.

poncho167 · February 2010

I love this. It's about time!

tomjava · February 2010

The sludge problem is way overblown. Millions of toyota i4 engines on Camry sold worldwide, and the issue of sludge only occurs in the US? It doesn't make sense?
Since most toyota owners who think that their cars are so reliable, are likely to neglect maintaining their cars, and yet they blame their cars instead of themselves. :sick:

Toyota has huge cash reserve, I think it can weather this firestorm better than the most. If Audi can survive Audi 5000 fiasco, due to ignorant public and 60-minute slander reporting, I have no doubt that Toyota will come back, and I can't wait to buy 2010 Camry, or 4Runner, or Prius at great bargain.

revit · February 2010

Well, there are two ways to proceed if you are upset.

1. Accept that Toyota is now doing things right and move on.
2. Keep holding a grudge and let it eat at you.

Most people with healthy attitudes will choose the 1st option.

It's less of a problem that made out to be because a recall of xxx million cars IMPLIES that ALL those cars have the problem. But they don't. Only some of them do.

I am sorry you feel that way. I hold a company accountable for its action and it says more of not being receptive to other's opinions. And it is now the people with "healthy attitudes", it is the die hard Toyota fanatics that even when they now produce unsafe vehicles, just act like it never happened. Bet you wouldn't have that same point of view if it was Honda, Nissan, Ford, or GM. Basically what you have concluded is an automaker can lie, cover up the truth, deny, etc. and it is acceptable...talk about low standards. Now that says more about Toyota and those that feel Toyota is now doing things right.

Toyota is wrong here period. Owners cannot and will not move on until Toyota realizes what they have done. The sad part is, as of today, they still think they have done nothing wrong and wish they were not required by law to stop selling their vehicles and issue recall after recall. Gosh, can you imagine the other safety issues they are still covering up. Fortunately, it is all coming to the surface.

Toyota on the mend?

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