Toyota on the mend?

smarty666 · April 2010

I want to see GM and Ford do good because its great for competition among the mainstream divisions, which directly helps us consumers get a variety of high quality, lots of feature options when shopping for vehicles.

But don't you understand, that high fleet sales are not good for GM and Ford? They don't make the money off them like they do company and consumer sales. Having between 30-60% fleet sales each month, depending on what Detroit 3 were talking about, only goes to provide rental fleet fodder. I read time and time again online from various financial experts that say its not good for them. They need to get those fleet sales reduced because they are no where near what the foreign automakers do each month in fleet sales.

imidazol97 · April 2010

>40% increase in Toyota sales

What were the sales in 2008, then 2009, and now 2010? Comparing with 2009, a down year in the economy for all brands means jack squat.

anythngbutgm · April 2010

I don't hate GM. What I do hate is the biased, pompous, arrogant, antagonizing sensationalist attitude who make up a majority of their fanbase.

I could give a rats [non-permissible content removed] whether or not Toyota rises or fails in the future. I have never owned nor do I have much intention of owning one of their products in my lieftime. But I'm not going to follow the same vendetta as you and other haters with a pitchfork in one hand and an American flag in the other, pushing for the demise of everything that's NOT based in Detroilet in the name of protectionism (and racism :sick: ) as some sort of salvation for the decades of (deserved) criticism and negative rankings over the past 3 decades.

Freedom of choice. Welcome to America. Enjoy your stay.

imidazol97 · April 2010

Where is a listing that includes the monthly sales by name plate that goes back to 2008 and earlier. I don't find any free ones on the internet in my searches

anythngbutgm · April 2010

link title

ateixeira · April 2010

Interesting, but before people break out the champagne let's remember they polled 1000 Americans.

Can you imagine if they polled 1000 people in Japan? Do you think 33% would pick American cars?

Any how, it's good news for Detroit, but the real question is what is the long-term effect.

gagrice · April 2010

But don't you understand, that high fleet sales are not good for GM and Ford?

GM and to a lesser extent Ford still have obligations to the UAW. That means keeping workers busy. They have to build and sell so many vehicles to meet those obligations to the Pension funds. Toyota is not tied up with those obligations. This little recall for Toyota helps to level the playing field.

"Onto every auto maker a little rain must fall".

avucarguy · April 2010

I totally agree with you. I think some of these Toyota haters can't stand it because an asian manufacturer is beating the pants of the domestics in this country. I think these good ol boys would be bashing Hyundai also, if Hyundai was #1 in this country.
I do not like GM because the first 4 cars I ever owned were GM and the were CRAP. I spent too much money fixing them at a time in my life when I did not have much money(being young and poor).
But I do not want GM /Chrysler to go out of business either. The more competition, the better for us consumer. More choices for everybody to choose from.

ateixeira · April 2010

if Hyundai was #1 in this country

I saw a survey of web site traffic and while GM was first, Hyundai was second.

They're rising fast, and I bet they one day will reach the peaks Toyota did.

gagrice · April 2010

I don't hate GM. What I do hate is the biased, pompous, arrogant, antagonizing sensationalist attitude who make up a majority of their fanbase.

You are not trying to get us to believe you have not gone onto a GM thread and shown bias while bashing GM products, are you? I would say you spend more time bashing GM than I do Toyota.

ateixeira · April 2010

I would say you spend more time bashing GM than I do Toyota.

Isn't that a bit like the pot calling the kettle black?

I found that amusing on many levels. :P

anythngbutgm · April 2010

There is nothing to bash. GM started their decent long before I was driving.

Again, Toyota has a reputation to destroy. Government Motors doesn't. :shades:

robsis · April 2010

Well, having owned several GM and Toyota models in the past (most recently an 03 Avalanche and an 05 Highlander), my wife and I decided to check out both in our quest for a new vehicle for winter driving in Flagstaff, AZ. I was impressed with the Equinox/Terrain for '10. It certainly appears as if GM is truly on their way back to the quality they used to be known for (and the engineering, I might add)...but then we drove a '10 Hyundai Tucson and realized how much further GM still has to go to truly compete when you compare features and price.

The dealership we go to, Tims Auto Group in Prescott, AZ, has GMC/Buick/Toyota/Hyundai/Subaru, and we worked with the Toyota fleet manager (the best, I might add....), who brought us one of everything we were trying to compare. A morning of driving everything side-by-side and researching all of the units we tried still lead us down the Toyota path for reliability, quality, features for the price, etc. An added plus is all that Toyota is now doing to make sure that the customer knows that they are king...and the showroom traffic that we saw convinced me that, although they are suffering from the bad publicity (I've never seen that many Prius's on a lot before...), they are quickly rebuilding themselves back to the prime player that they are.

What's nice for us, the consumer, is that this hit they have taken has allowed other manufacturers (Ford, GM, Hyundai, Subaru) to have their products seen by many who, in the past, would not have even gone into those other showrooms. This can only lead to better autos and better customer service by all.

Toyota's coming back...but this is a win-win for all of us, IMHO.

imidazol97 · April 2010

It looks like the sales for March 2009 were down about 40% from 2008. Sales for March 2010 were up about 40% of the lowered base of sales number in 2009, but that puts them back about where they were for 2008 which was down 3.5% from 2007.

And the sales for 2010 were with lots, lots of incentives. That even includes 2 years of service to loyal toyota buyers as an additional incentive to keep the faithful.

ateixeira · April 2010

Well said.

I like the Equinox but experienced some serious sticker shock when I saw one at the auto show that was $39 grand. :surprise:

Knock off $10 grand and I'd be interested.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2010

ladies and silly germs.

Toyota say what
I can't believe anyone
Wants them after all

Yes! You nailed it brother!

buyamerican2 · April 2010

Now that there is a more level playing field (union is under control, cost structure is looking very favorable), look for GM, Ford and Chrysler to kick some serious butt. Two years from now as new models are introduced, the foreigners are not going to know what hit them. And ironically, its the unionized American worker that is going to benefit. But he will be kept in check this time around. You can take that to the bank.

mnf · April 2010

WOW now that is a graph i would like to see

nippononly · April 2010

Popped back in here and noticed this:

Sadly finding quality is nearly impossible with all brands.

That kind of echoed some remarks made by andres before that, and I couldn't agree more. All the automakers are trying so desperately hard to squeeze every last drop of cost out of their production systems nowadays that the age of being able to buy a quality automobile in the U.S. at ANY price, but certainly under $50K, seem to be over. :-(

nippononly · April 2010

I found that amusing on many levels

Me too! ;-)

gagrice · April 2010

Maybe, just maybe I have bashed Toyota more than GM. Truth is I have had more to bash Toyota about than the 5 GM vehicles I bought new. I should bore you with my horribly unreliable 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser, unlike Andres, I also had many good times in my Land Cruiser. Our Land Cruiser was featured in several 4X4 magazines that I took pictures for and my wife wrote articles. The Jeep Wrangler in front of me on this 1966 Tierra del Sol run made it look so easy. :sick:

nippononly · April 2010

Recalls Cost Toyota a Credit Grade Cut

April 22, 2010

Credit-rating service Moody's cut its grade on Toyota Motor Corp. based on its prediction that the Japanese automaker faces a long profitability slump coupled with potentially expensive lawsuit costs from its multiple vehicle recalls around the globe.

It marked Toyota's lowest credit rating ever, and it was yet-another piece of bad news in yet-another week of bad news for Toyota.

......In addition to noting the cost of recalls and the hit on profits, Moody's, lowering its rating of Toyota, said the automaker was at the for product quality problems significantly and permanently eroding Toyota's historical advantage of pricing power. Moody's said Toyota's profits could be hurt through 2012 by the recall mess.

http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/04/recalls-cost-toyota-a-credit-grade-cut.html#- more

I think the days of "Toyota's historical advantage of pricing power" would have proven to be just about over even if none of this SUA mess had come along. Too many good automakers nipping at their heels these days, including Hyundai, and even the domestics (certainly Ford at least) are making their way back.

But Moodys is looking at this cloud over Toyota right now settling in for a two-year stint. The other credit rating agencies will almost certainly follow suit shortly, and it's unclear if Toyota might not eventually end up in a GM-like financial crisis in a couple of years...

nippononly · April 2010

Some may say that Toyota's sales incentives, while historically high, are still less than major competitors including the domestics. But check this out:

Seven of Ten Toyotas Sold in March Had 0-Percent Financing

April 20, 2010

According to data released today by Edmunds.com, parent of AutoObserver, a remarkable 71 percent of all Toyotas sold last month were financed through a 0-percent loans.

.....As Toyota's unintended-acceleration controversy abated, the company ratcheted back on its heaviest incentives, but its March blow-out led the entire industry to its biggest 0-percent financing penetration rate since Edmunds.com began compiling the data six years ago

Some 22 percent of all new-vehicle financing loans were 0-percent APR deals in March, Edmunds analysts said, exceeding the 21-percent figure of July, 2006.

http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/04/seven-of-ten-toyotas-sold-in-march-had-0-per- cent-financing.html#more

WHOA!! Anyone remember Mitsubishi's 0-0-0 fiasco a few years back??!! :-P

But seriously, this may not count as a cash incentive, but the amount of lost interest on this financing is still an incentive of sorts, and as Edmunds says, "Toyota Motor Corp.'s reputation may have taken a whack in recent months, but those troubles apparently are nothing a good deal couldn't make buyers forget."

None of the other Big 5 automakers had even half as much 0% financing, with Ford the closest at 32% of all sales made on 0% loans.

Of course, if you are looking for a deal on a Toyota, I think it's safe to say the 0% financing will be around for a while, it clearly works WONDERS for Toyota.

andres3 · April 2010

The more competition, the better for us consumer. More choices for everybody to choose from.

I agree competition is good. However, there have been way too many examples where the BIg 3 weren't being competitive at all and only bozo's and idiots were buying them. Either that, or they got scammed and defrauded.

andres3 · April 2010

Knock off $10 grand and I'd be interested.

I feel the same way about the Cadillac CTS. Knock off 10 grand off the super inflated sticker and then you're talking!

andres3 · April 2010

look for GM, Ford and Chrysler to kick some serious butt. Two years from now as new models are introduced, the foreigners are not going to know what hit them.

The Big three have spewed the same propaganda non-sense over and over and over again, and it appears you are paid to regurgitate it yet again. I heard the same line in 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997,1998 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and now your REGURGITATING it yet again here in 2010!!

What makes it different this time, after all these repeated years of the same statement?

andres3 · April 2010

isn't worth much these days as the most you can make on your money without risking losing it all is about 1%, maybe 2% if your lucky.

xlu · April 2010

only bozo's and idiots were buying them

Watch what you say body. There's no need to label 50% of the car drivers in this country as you described.

On the other hand, didn't someone here called those runaway Toyota drivers dummies because they did not know how to shift to neutral?

imidazol97 · April 2010

> didn't someone here called those runaway Toyota drivers dummies because they did not know how to shift to neutral?

Others also referred to many of the over 50 buyers of toyota-lexus as incompetent because they were pushing the gas pedal instead of the brake pedal and causing the "alleged" runaway acceleration events.

Of course they also blamed their cellphones, their calls to their husband, their prayers to God, faking the lexus restarting while trying to get it on the AAA tow truck, the past financial history of the owner, the porn business of the owner, a highway patrol officer being an incompetent driver and not shifting into neutral or pressing on the brake to stop, etc., etc., etc.

lemko · April 2010

Toyota should be gravely concerned if it comes down to this:

"$99 down! $99 a month on a new Toyota Camry at the Cherry Hill Triplex...!"

anythngbutgm · April 2010

Not that "buyamerican" comment was even remotely pertinent to the thread but I agree with you.

Government Motors "Just wait till next year" is a recurring theme that frankly, I don't believe consumers really take seriously anymore. I certainly don't.

Good luck to them. Ford is the one who is the comeback kid. GM is just the kid on the skateboad trying hold on for the ride. :P

nippononly · April 2010

Yes they should. The only good thing you can say about 0% financing is that it doesn't hurt long-term resale values as much as heavy fleet sales or heavy cash on the hood.

The only Toyota that has had overly heavy cash incentives is the Tundra. Luckily for Toyota, the Big 3 full-size trucks are just the same - sold largely to fleet buyers and with huge cashback on the hood.

gagrice · April 2010

Seven of Ten Toyotas Sold in March Had 0-Percent Financing

Let's see now. On a $25k Camry over 48 months that is a loss from 0% financing of about $5000. So you go into your Toyota dealer and tell them to keep their 0% financing. You want the $5k off their best price and you will pay cash. For those without great credit the 0% financing is a lot bigger incentive.

Hmmm, think about this. Toyota cannot borrow at the best rates as they have been down graded. What are they paying for that money they have given to 71% of their car buyers last month. I would guess Toyota is paying about 7% on their corporate bonds. Makes the fleet sales by GM and Ford look mighty good to me.

larsb · April 2010

Nice idea in theory, Gary, but not so many buyers have $20K cash they can use to buy a car.

stever · April 2010

On a cash deal, wouldn't the dealer take the $5,000 hit? On the zero percent deal, that's Toyota's problem.

More mat issues:

Toyota Corolla banned in Brazilian state on safety woes (business.inquirer.net)

ateixeira · April 2010

Nice headline, but let's not get carried away.

Their credit rating is still Aa2, the 3rd highest possible grade.

What is GM's? Ford's?

ateixeira · April 2010

We already looked at the cost of incentives per car sold and Toyota's was lower than GM, Ford, or Chrysler.

This is win-win for the consumer and it puts pricing pressure on everyone.

ateixeira · April 2010

Steve: link is dead, can you check it?

ateixeira · April 2010

In case people skipped reading it:

From Automotive News:

GM incentives ranked fourth-highest, Docherty said, behind Ford Motor Co., Chrysler Group and "an import competitor." That import automaker was Nissan North America, said two sources who have seen the incentives numbers. J.D. Power's incentive measure is proprietary and not shared with the public.

Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100401/RETAIL01/100409982/1- - 401#ixzz0kEY0wOts

The industry average was $2910 per vehicle.

The top 3 highest incentives came from Ford, Chrysler, and Nissan. GM was 4th.

So Toyota wasn't even in the top 4 in terms of incentives per vehicle.

People buying new cars are getting 3-4% loans, so 0% isn't what it used to be, when car loans were fetching 6-7%.

stever · April 2010

Sorry, I truncated it and didn't notice it wasn't grayed out for me.

Once again:

Toyota Corolla banned in Brazilian state on safety woes

ateixeira · April 2010

They're pointing at the floor mats again. Let's see where that investigation leads.

Toyota is a new-ish player in Brazil, where VW, Fiat, Ford, and Chevrolet have led for years. They do build Corollas in Brazil.

buyamerican2 · April 2010

As I said, it's a level playing field now. Proof of GM capability when there is a level playing field is China where they now dominate (600,000 cars sold in first three months). Toyota is not keeping up there. This is a foreshadowing of what is about to take place here.

stever · April 2010

They do build Corollas in Brazil.

They probably don't build them in that state that banned them.

gagrice · April 2010

The industry average was $2910 per vehicle.

They must not be counting the 0% financing then. With 71% sold on 0% the incentive is a LOT more than $2910. Even a cheapo Corolla would be $3000 in financing loss. A $40K Tundra about $11,000 in interest loss, and a $65k Sequoia over $20,000 in interest lost. Just another cover-up by Toyota to not look bad for investors.

ateixeira · April 2010

I don't think so. Let's try some real numbers.

Fitzgerald Toyota sells Corollas no-haggle, so that makes it easy. Prices range from $14,978 to $17,473. Let's go with $16,000 to use nice, round numbers.

At 3% from my credit union (actually 2.99% for Tier 1), payment for a 60 month loan would be $287.50.

At 0% from Toyota credit, it would drop to $266.67.

That amounts to a whopping $20.83 per month.

Over 60 months the savings total $1,249.80. Let's round that to $1250. Clever folks will mention we should use the Present Value accounting for inflation, but let's ignore that and give it to you.

For a $32,000 vehicle the savings would be $2500.

The industry average was $2910 per vehicle

Still $410 below average. And remember, Ford, Chrysler, GM, and Nissan are well above that average, since those are the top 4.

To get your much higher numbers you must be using a much higher rate. Even if your credit sucks, a 4.99% loan from my credit union would still amount to $2116 for that Corolla.

Plus, if your credit sucks, you won't qualify for 0% anyway.

How did you get $3000 in interest for a Corolla?

Only if you borrow from the mob.

ateixeira · April 2010

a $65k Sequoia

Exaggerate much? Jeebus.

That same dealer's most expensive Sequoia is $40,975, freight included.

If you buy a $65,000 car at >11% interest then I'd conclude 2 things:

1). It's not a Toyota

and

2). Your bank completely ripped you off.

anythngbutgm · April 2010

I read that too! 65k for a Sequioa would be nuts. :surprise:

Maybe Gary was talking about the LandCruiser?

nippononly · April 2010

I was focused more on Moody's long-term outlook for Toyota with that post. And they don't think much of Toyota's prospects for the next two years. So far American consumers are lapping up the free financing and other spiffs, and if Toyota can keep that up without hurting their image, resale, or profitability in the long run, then Moodys is probably wrong with their forecast.

ateixeira · April 2010

I looked and at least for my zip code the Sequoia is not even included in the 0% for 60 months offer!

Many models are not. no Sequoia, no Prius, no Venza, no Highlander. The 60-month rate is 2.9%.

Whoopee. That's 0.09% less than my credit union!

You got the wrong model, named the wrong price for that model, and a bogus loan rate on top of all that.

fezo · April 2010

2.9% is what we got on the CPO Camry.

Toyota on the mend?

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