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Honda Civic vs Mazda3

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Comments

  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    I'm just saying about the A/C in the 3 everybody's hearing complaints but CR rates the 3 good in the A/C department. I;m just trying to understand how CR could rate the 3 good in the A/C department but everybody saying how bad the A/C in the 3 is.
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Member Posts: 626
    I can only relay what I've read here and at other forums - and that is that the AC problem seems to have gone away with the 06 model. Not sure what they did though - diffuser seems to have worked for others, if it hasn't for you. Maybe that's not enough people needing to use A/C yet (introduced in September), so I guess it's really wait and see
  • warnerwarner Member Posts: 196
    TSB- 100127 For Mazda 3 Weak Air Conditioner:

    TSB Step1: Gather all Mazda 3 documentation: license, insurance, loan, annualk tests, etc.

    TSB step2: Go to nearest CARMAX dealer, get estimate and sell Mazda 3.

    TSB step3: Go to Honda dealer of choice and purchase Civic

    TSB Expected Results: Dramatically improved air conditioning.

    TSB Temporary/Permanent Resolution: Permanent, no expected problem return,


    You're KILLING me, Midnightcowboy! Hehehe...

    Warner
  • z71billz71bill Member Posts: 1,986
    But - to finish off the thought - and try and put it back as a Civic VS Mazda3 debate.

    CR rates the AC "good" because it does not break - not because it works well. Not everyone has problems with the Mazda3 AC - some people have systems that work fine - so they are happy - my point is - If you are lucky and get a good one GREAT - if you get a weak one you are stuck - because Mazda will not fix it. This is just the way it is - shame on Mazda for not stepping up and fixing this problem.

    How will Honda treat the customers who take a chance and buy a 2006 Civic - if it develops a problem (like an AC that does not cool)? Will they just say - its working as designed - so no fix - then just keep selling the same car - with the same problem for another model year - or maybe 2 more model years. Or will Honda step up and quickly try and fix the problem?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    How will Honda treat the customers who take a chance and buy a 2006 Civic - if it develops a problem (like an AC that does not cool)? Will they just say - its working as designed - so no fix - then just keep selling the same car - with the same problem for another model year - or maybe 2 more model years. Or will Honda step up and quickly try and fix the problem?

    Well, if history can be used to tell the future, Honda will rebuild/replace your problematic issue (if it is a nationwide problem, of course). Whenever a particular aspect of a Honda has shown less than stellar reliability, they up the warranty on that (and other related) parts, and will install a fresh, problem free thingamajig without much hassle. Odysseys (Odyssies?) have had some trouble with transmissions (that's no secret), and while not down to the level of Chrysler in the 90s, they have had more than normal complaints about it for a Honda. They promptly started putting new transmissions in cars WELL over their warranty (60k + miles not unusual).

    Seems like when Honda messes things up, they are quick to clean up their act.
  • mvs1mvs1 Member Posts: 462
    I think your overstating how quickly manufacturers are able to bring a new design to market. Companies are almost always chasing a moving target, what the competition will be are how better their next offering will be, not what it is today.

    Just because the Mazda3 came out in 04 doesn't mean Honda, Toyota or anyone else runs back to the drawing board and pushes out a new model. They have to recoup the R&D invested over the duration of the products life cycle, usually roughly five years time.

    It's very rare that companies launch products the same model year. It's neither here nor there, both these vehicles are great and regardless who pushes the envelope the customer wins by having multiple choices.

    Toyota mind you, is so far in front of both Honda and Mazda it's a shame. Honda is small company relative to Toyota and can not afford to launch a radical car and have it fail. Mazda is practically working from the ground up, and doing a fine job at that.
  • qddaveqddave Member Posts: 164
    Just because the Mazda3 came out in 04 doesn't mean Honda, Toyota or anyone else runs back to the drawing board and pushes out a new model. They have to recoup the R&D invested over the duration of the products life cycle, usually roughly five years time.

    Very true. In the January issue of Motor Trend, pg. 28 to be exact, they state that Toyota execs ordered a last minute redesign of the next gen Corolla after seeing the "avant garde" Civic in Geneva. They state that the launch has been reportedly moved back by 6 months.
  • qddaveqddave Member Posts: 164
    Honda likely has a tad more liquid cash flow available for just such an occasion too.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    history can be used to tell the future, Honda will rebuild/replace your problematic issue (if it is a nationwide problem, of course

    Don't be so sure...As a dealer who has Acura we knew about the tranny problem a long before Honda/Acura acknowledged the problem...it wasn't until so many had the problem that they decided to 'handle' the situation with a secret warranty. Oddly enough our Acura service department is our most profitable and it isnt because they are doing oil changes..

    After 20 years in the biz I have found that European and Asian brands, in general, are the worst about admitting problems...Domestics actually handle most recall & TSB issues better than most...maybe becasue they have most practice. ;)
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Honda likely has a tad more liquid cash flow available for just such an occasion too

    Many car companies have insurnace policies to help with recalls and TSB...also, the suppliers usually have to join in on the parade. example, UTC paid Ford millions for its defective ignition switch that triggered a big recall earlier this year..
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm just saying about the A/C in the 3 everybody's hearing complaints but CR rates the 3 good in the A/C department. I;m just trying to understand how CR could rate the 3 good in the A/C department but everybody saying how bad the A/C in the 3 is.

    Consumer Reports likely looks at the number of repairs required per driver to get their results. It's similar to transmissions in Hondas. In the mid 1990s Honda auto-trannys shifted pretty jerky, but were extremely reliable. They are given an above average/excellent rating because, while the performance isn't stellar, they don't require repair or have problems that take away from the reliability of the automobile.
  • spinzerospinzero Member Posts: 91
    My wife and I went on a little trip to DC over the weekend. Over 500 miles where ~100 were city driving, we got a little over 30MPG. This might be a disaster for some Civic owners, but we are extremely happy with the mileage. My WRX would get 24MPG in the same situation if I'm lucky. (plus it eats premium)

    We have not used the A/C yet, obviously because it's in the middle of the winter. We'll see how bad it really is in a few months. But along with the mileage, this will be a very minor concern for us, as long as it doesn't break. I can see how it can be a major problem for some though, depending on where you live.

    One thing we learned after the trip. The driving experience is really as good as it can possibly be under $20K. It may not be the best in all areas, for instance I think the Civic has a slightly better manual tranny, and the Jetta has noticeably better steering. But when you sum everything up, the overall experience is definetely a class above all the other economy sedans.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "After 20 years in the biz I have found that European and Asian brands, in general, are the worst about admitting problems...Domestics actually handle most recall & TSB issues better than most...maybe becasue they have most practice."

    I kinda disagree with your post sort of but not entirely. Mazda offered people in 98 when the 99 Miata first came onto the market a chance for the customers to return the Miata because Mazda miscaqulated HP numbers. 5 years later Mazda had the same problem with HP numbers and they did offer a buyback on the RX-8 I Think.

    Honda stepped up to the plate with the tranny thing.

    I think Hyundai got in trouble for misqouting HP numbers on their cars a few years but I don't think they offered a buy back. Toyota didn't handle their sludge thing as well as Honda handled their tranny issue in my opinion. I'm not trashing any brands I'm just giving my opinion.

    I will agree with you that the Domestics do have better customer service departments than the Japanese brands do given the scores in customer service that I saw in Consumer Reports a few years back. Who knows that surevey was 3 years ago though. I haven't seen any customer survey since in CR. Lexus and Infinti have good scores in regards to customer service and their Japanese luxury brands. I know luxury car brands usually give better service than regular model brands(honda, Ford.)
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Just because the Mazda3 came out in 04 doesn't mean Honda, Toyota or anyone else runs back to the drawing board and pushes out a new model. They have to recoup the R&D invested over the duration of the products life cycle, usually roughly five years time."

    I know Honda and Toyota just can;t just run back to the drawing board and oush a new model. I also understand they have to wait until the 5 year model cycle of a particular car is up.

    "Toyota mind you, is so far in front of both Honda and Mazda it's a shame. Honda is small company relative to Toyota and can not afford to launch a radical car and have it fail. Mazda is practically working from the ground up, and doing a fine job at that."

    Mazda has in a rebuilding mode for awhile now.
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Member Posts: 626
    "I think Hyundai got in trouble for misqouting HP numbers on their cars a few years but I don't think they offered a buy back."

    We had a V6 Santa Fe that was affected by this. They offered you the choice of better warranty coverage - I believe it was extending bumper to bumper to 6/72 from 5/60 or extending powetrain to 12/120 from 10/100. There were other choices too - maybe roadside for the life of your car or something like that We were happy with the deal, as the difference in HP wasn't that big (173 vs 181)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,258
    if you used the defroster, you probably used the a/c, but that does not help as far as cooling capacity goes.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    Ok, if there is enough complaints about the A/c in the Mazda 3 isn't that where the NHTSA comes in and forces a recall? Mazda should issue a recall on these A/C systems in my opinion.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    I don't think it is a safety issue, so I doubt that NHTSA will come to the rescue.

    Here in Houston, a good air conditioner is a requirement.

    Good Luck, I know the new Dodge Charge lost a lot of sales here because of the poor AC. At max AC it was just barely cool on a summer day.

    Soon to be cruis'n in a SI :shades: ,

    MidCow
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Mazda should issue a recall on these A/C systems in my opinion

    The problem seems to be bigger on edmunds than anywhere else. Our dealerships have only seen a few customers with the a/c complaint. We have had more people complaining about a slow clock than inop A/C.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I just read that the 2007 Mazda 3 will get a much welcomed 5-speed automatic. Had anyone else heard this? I can tell you where I read it, though I am not sure how credible the source is.
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Member Posts: 626
    I just read that the 2007 Mazda 3 will get a much welcomed 5-speed automatic. Had anyone else heard this? I can tell you where I read it, though I am not sure how credible the source is. "

    I guess it's credible, considering that the 2006 Mz3s already has a 5 speed auto (3i's still have 4 speed)

    Right there on the Mazda website...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sorry, I misread what MY source said, and it is totally my fault. It said, and I quote:

    The only thing it needed was a 5 speed auto, and it just got it for 2006.

    For some reason, I read that as it needed it for 2006, and (Later in the article, it mentions the changes for the 2007.) obviously I was wrong! Thanks for the correction, and for not mocking me for my mistake, as many people on some forums do. Simple mistake!

    Sorry again,

    thegrad
  • vix4vix4 Member Posts: 52
    Wow, I know I'm late to this comparison forum, but I am amazed at how much better the Mazda3 rates compared to the new Civic in the Edmunds test.

    Usually these comparisons are close and personal preference takes over at the end, but in this case the Mazda3 really seems to be the clear leader.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Wow, I know I'm late to this comparison forum, but I am amazed at how much better the Mazda3 rates compared to the new Civic in the Edmunds test.

    Usually these comparisons are close and personal preference takes over at the end, but in this case the Mazda3 really seems to be the clear leader.


    Just keep in mind that most car rag editors are all about high performance. The Civic has a very distinct advantage in the economy department (it is an ECONOMY car, after all). The Civic as Car of the Year from Motor Trend isn't anything to sneeze at, either.

    Remember, different people, different priorities, different preferences. Drive each of them and let us know what you think!

    Have a good holiday weekend,

    thegrad
  • d_hyperd_hyper Member Posts: 130
    The Civic has a very distinct advantage in the economy department (it is an ECONOMY car, after all).

    True, buyers have different priorities. But 'Economy' class
    does not mean fuel economy. Except for 'luxury', the classes are divided by size, not fuel mileage. Therefore, 'Compact' is more appropriate. If someone needs to save money, they may buy a 'subcompact' or a used car. There is not much economy in spending $20K for a car.
  • vix4vix4 Member Posts: 52
    The Edmunds article really blew me away, the way the Mazda out did the Civic by such a large margin. I think the Mazda defies the "Economy car" label. It might cost the same as the other economy cars, but it performs like its in a completely different class.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I would think that buyers who can't spend more than $20k on a car (or just won't in many cases) will appreciate an advantage in fuel economy, maybe more so than an advantage at the dragstrip. This was my general point.
  • d_hyperd_hyper Member Posts: 130
    Understood...There are also people in sub-compact class who would value savings at the pump even more. We can all generalize the more expensive the car, the less people care about fuel economy. However, real life MPG numbers are within 5% according to the magazine research mentioned on the this thread several times.

    Personally, I wouldn't purchase a car with a digital speedo
    even if it was an overall winner. Especially, if the speedo
    is in a driver's sight. It is an absolute distraction to see numbers go up/down, up/down... It's OK if placed on a lower level, but not right in front of your eyes. :confuse:

    On the other hand, 'Civic' is a household name, Mazda3 is not.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Consumer Reports has a glowing report on the Civic.

    "The redesigned Honda civic has climbed to the top of our small-sedan ranking. ...The aerodynamic styling of the Civic looks futuristic but sacrifices ease of access."

    If performamce is your concern get the Civic Si, which has the equivalent mileage to the Mazda 3 and significantly out-performs.

    Soon to have an Si,

    MidCow
  • d_hyperd_hyper Member Posts: 130
    Here, we compare sedans. You know, like not having to bend
    for rear bench access. I would actually take a M6 hatch w/V6 over Si, but that would belong to a different forum IMO

    Congrats on Si! Drive Safely ;)
  • crissmancrissman Member Posts: 145
    Before buying my Civic I was concerned the digital speedo would be distracting. It is not for me. Seems to far enough from your line of sight. Also, you can dim the display to the point where it just doesn't draw the eye. I'm honestly not sure whether I might prefer a guage, but this does work. I'd also suspect new Civic drivers will be getting fewer speeding tickets because of the digital speedo.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Actually this forumm is "Honda Civic vs Mazda 3" I thought this included both the Honda Civic Sedan and Coupe and the Mazda 3i and Mazda 3s sedans and the Mazda 3s wagon.

    Is this discussion only limited to sedans? If so maybe the title needs to be adjusted.

    Otherwise I contend that if Mazda 3s performance is touted, then Honda folks must be allowed defend with the Si.

    Two Honda Coupe 6-speeds ( Accord and Civic),

    MidCow
  • d_hyperd_hyper Member Posts: 130
    On the top..."What is this discussion about? Honda Civic, Mazda MAZDA3, Sedan" No problem, I'm open-minded like most people on this forum.

    You can always step down to Mazda 3i to get comparable fuel economy to Civic, but still have a driver's car (better braking, handling, feel etc). But you can't step up performance-wise to Si sedan, because it doesn't exist. People comparing sedans (like Edmunds) usually are 'stuck' with sedans. You know, utility, family, friends etc. I remember, there was a 'driver-only' (ie 1 person) sports car called 'Egoist' in Europe, but I wouldn't own one.
  • spinzerospinzero Member Posts: 91
    I would think that buyers who can't spend more than $20k on a car (or just won't in many cases) will appreciate an advantage in fuel economy, maybe more so than an advantage at the drag strip.

    It really isn't about the drag strip though, I hope you were just exaggerating. Strait-line acceleration is certainly not the performance trait that sets the 3 apart from the Civic.

    I think majority of Americans would prefer a larger car over a small one regardless. When you equate compact car = economy car, I think that is the assumption. i.e. A compact car is for people that cannot (or will not) afford a larger car, and therefore its primary purpose is to be economical.

    This is quite possibly why you don't see the appeal of the 3. Even though it is priced similar to the Civic, it has the distinct taste of a "premium small car", a segment that hardly exists in this country.

    It is not difficult to equip a 3 that will be more expensive than its bigger brother 6. This kind of thing would never happen in the Toyota or Honda pricing structure, but it works well for Mazda. Why? Because there are people like me that like small cars BECAUSE of the fact that they are small, not in spite of.

    I agree the Civic is the best economy car. It just isn't the best compact car in my book. The 3 is.
  • silentwatchersilentwatcher Member Posts: 5
    I think that we are all hung up on differences that are not that great. The Mazda is universally hailed as the performance car, but I doubt that it would beat the Civic by more than a car length or two if both were wrung out to redline to 60, which coincidentally will NEVER happen with 99% of the drivers of either car. The handling advantage is also negligible unless measured with advanced equipment on a slalom course.

    Likewise, the fuel savings of the Civic are likely a hundred or two a year, hardly a decision maker for the vast majority.

    This is not 'Vette vs. Civic' nor is it 'Mazda vs Prius'. Both are great vehicles as near as I can tell, and it, like everything else in life, will come down to preference.

    I love my new Civic, and would probably have loved the Mazda as well.

    Mike
  • irnmdnirnmdn Member Posts: 245
    TSB step2: Go to nearest CARMAX dealer, get estimate and sell Mazda 3.

    TSB step3: Go to Honda dealer of choice and purchase Civic

    TSB Expected Results: Dramatically improved air conditioning.

    TSB Temporary/Permanent Resolution: Permanent, no expected problem return,


    TSB step4: Please make sure you get enough sleep before getting in the Civic(SI excluded), becuase driving one will usually put you to it.

    PS: NHTSA is currently investigating high number crashes involving Civics driven by former Mz3 owners, most of the drivers were found half-asleep at the wheel.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    immdn,

    LOL, My advice never buy a Lexus. A Lexus is so quiet and the road feel is so isolated that even a 5-speed 2002 Absolute Red IS300 almost puts you to sleep! My son put a Tanabe exhaust on it which adds back some character. It is quick and goes fast and handles well, but it is so isolated that you don't really enjoy the speed or the performance.

    Soon to be double sixes,

    MidCow
  • claudius753claudius753 Member Posts: 138
    "I agree the Civic is the best economy car. It just isn't the best compact car in my book. The 3 is."

    Ditto. For economy car, the Civic wins. It was cheaper, and got better mpg. I'm sure it handled fairly well too.

    Now for best compact car, Mazda 3 wins. Great handling, good power, fun to drive. You can get leather and hids. and it still gets decent mpgs.

    I still think that the 3 should get better economy than it does, at least in the 2.3. Accord and Camry's 2.4 does better in a bigger heavier car. 25/35 on the 2.3 would be superb. I would have no problem deciding between the two as I am having now. Oh well.
  • noognoog Member Posts: 2
    My hunt for a used 3- to 4-year-old Civic (for which people are asking high prices) has led me to look at new cars and to this forum. After a few days of reading, test driving and thinking, here’s what I’ve found:

    2006 Civic LX sedan with 5-speed AT, negotiated to $17,100 (in SF Bay area)
    vs.
    2006 Mazda 3i with these options to make it equivalent: 4-speed AT, A/C, ABS/side-airbag package and touring package (power windows & locks and 16” wheels), offered at $16,600

    Honda Civic LX advantages:
    Better safety ratings (in multiple areas, tho’ Mazda is untested with side airbags)
    Better fuel efficiency (EPA ratings 5 mpg higher, slightly closer with stick shift in Mazda)
    5- instead of 4-speed automatic transmission
    No consistent complaints online about weak A/C
    Better company track record on reliability and resale, tho’ not necessarily true for this model.
    Environmentally conscious design (attention to recyclability of parts), which may be true but unpublicized for Mazda as well.

    Mazda 3i advantages:
    Better performance (steering, handling, braking, accel.) reviews, tho’ in some cases based on sportier “S” model/engine
    Better emissions rating on “i” 2.0L engine (PZEV/SULEV vs. Civic’s ULEV—as far as I could find, that means the Mazda pollutes 40-50% less per gallon of gas, and all cars with a PZEV rating carry a 10-year/120,000 warranty on emissions reduction equipment)
    4 disc brakes (vs. 2 in Civic)
    Auto transmission has quasi-manual mode for more control
    No consistent complaints online about mysterious engine noise (with auto transmission)
    No consistent complaints (online and in my experience) about uncomfortable headrests
    More established reliability record on this particular model, since it’s a bit older
    Deals easier to find

    My priorities are safety (clear winner), reliability (long-term reputation vs. short-term data?) and environmental impact (efficiency vs. emissions?) which leaves me leaning toward the Honda… and then back toward the Mazda… and then back to the Honda… (Interesting to see the “US vs. THEM” high school football rivalry mentality in some online debates about these two cars; I don’t see how anyone can be confident that one car is really superior to the other or why it arouses such emotion.)

    My questionable solution: finding a really cheap used car to get me through the next few years until hybrids have become more efficient and affordable.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Get a new Toyota Corolla $12.5K
  • noognoog Member Posts: 2
    Really? The Corolla similarly equipped has a $17K+ MSRP, and used ones are almost as pricey as Civics around here.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Between the Civc EX/LX and Mazda 3 I would get the Mazda 3
    Between the Civic Si and Mazda 3 I would get the Civic Si
    Both the Civic and Mazda 3 are excellent choices, however they are not that inexpensive, $16-20K. Sometime in the Houston area you can find a basic Mazda 3i sedan for around $13-14K, which is a very good budget choice.

    However, If I were looking for a low cost reliable car, I would get a new 5-speed manual shift Toyota Corolla CE for about $12.5K You were looking at used Honda Civics and Used Mazda 3s. I would get a new Corolla until the Hybrid you want is available.

    Civics and Toyotas are the most reliable with Mazda very close behind. The are some other brands that have a 10year power train warranty whose relaiblity is still questionable, but improving.

    Good Luck,

    MidCow
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    I don't think any Corolla's come with any standard ABS(if thats really a major buying point for the compact car shoppers.) The Civic has standard ABS all across its model line while the 3 has standard ABS on the S model for 06 I think.
  • vix4vix4 Member Posts: 52
    Yes, I think you're right about the ABS. It looks like the Civic only has drum brakes on the rear unless you get the top model. Is that correct? Can you get rear discs as an option on the Civic? The Mazda web site is showing 4 wheel disk brakes are standard across the board.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Civic ABS standard on all. Rear disc on Civic EX and Si. It is not an upgrade option on DX and LX and Hybrid.

    Corolla you can get ABS, 4 wheel disc only available with XRS.

    Mazda 3i ABS option, standard on 3s. 4 wheel disc standard on all.

    Maybe a Scion ?? xB=ABS and 4 wheel disc traction and skid control $14K; xA=ABS and 4 wheel disc $12.5K

    Honda Civic Si= ABS , 4 wheel disc and 6-speed manual YEAH BABY! and performance!!!

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Member Posts: 626
    No consistent complaints online about weak A/C"

    While I doubt that the Civic AC is an issue, since it came out in October/November, there wouldn't have been much time to complain.
  • vix4vix4 Member Posts: 52
    I have the previous generation Civic and the A/C is very weak. I put aftermarket tinted glass on hoping that would help, but the A/C still isn't worth much if the temps are in the 90s, I have to run it on full and it takes forever to cool down, but the Civic never gets as cold as other cars I have owned.
  • vix4vix4 Member Posts: 52
    As for safety rating, make sure you also explore the European NCAP ratings. Their tests seems to be more respected than what occurs in the US. The Feds test is too easy and the IIHS is too limited since they only test something like a 10 percentile female dummy, which is too far our of the median to really make it worthwhile, unless you are a very petite female

    In Europe, the Mazda platform (shared with the Volvo and new Euro Focus) received the highest score ever tested for that size of car in both frontal offset and side impact testing. Not too much of a surprise since Volvo was in charge of the safety design.
  • crissmancrissman Member Posts: 145
    We have a '99 Civic (also an '06) and it's A/C is very effective, and we have many days in the 90's. Have you had the Freon level checked recently. It will slowly leak out in an older car.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,258
    i think they are over rated. the fronts do most of the braking anyway.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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