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Comments
"Mazdaspeed version of the 3 will be coming by the end of year. .. And that it will have the Turbo 2.3 engine, bump it up just a little bit and it would be in the WRX STI class. But even with the 275 HP engine, it will eat a Civic SI for breakfast. "
I'm waiting bring it on!! Assuming you are correct, it will be the only Mazda 3 that will beat the Civic Si and it will probably not be distinguish from the cartoonish regular Mazda 3.
I really like turbos! The lag is an awesome feeling. You push on the accelerator an in 0.5 seconds you get that manly turbo whine and then the Whoosh of power! Then with turbo you get to enjoy your car another 60 seconds as you let your turbo cool down. An best of all you don't have to worry about small oil leaks because you get to change your oil more often and minor oil burn/leaks no longer mattter. And best of all turbos allow you to trade you cars more often, because of the shorter turbo engine life, without having to overly justify to you new car purchase management. I LOVE TURBOs
H'mm a 2.3 turbo what do you think the mileage rating will drop too ? I am guessing 20/29 Does that still qualify it as a economy car? Look out SRT-4 you have company!
Double sixes,
MidCow
Will it be available for $20k as is the Civic Si? If it costs much more and doesen't have lots more features, it SHOULD be that powerful. Since the MazdaSpeed 6 starts around $29k, I'm guessing the 3 will be starting at $25k or so. Anyone's thoughts on pricing?
PS: I'd like to mention, that despite being the fastest car in test by a large margin, the MazdaSpeed 6 got beaten by a Jetta, Acura TSX, Honda Accord EXV6 6-speed, and missed last because one car was worse...a Pontiac.
Engine isn't everything; remember that.
Engine isn't everything; remember that."
u're right...the engine isn't everything. however in the case of the the C&D comparo, the MS6 was at the top in nearly all the measured tests and it wasn't just the straight line stuff. where the C&D writers felt the MS6 fell short was in luxury and refinement. they specifically felt the exhaust note was annoying and docked the MS6 for lacking leather upholstery and a moonroof.
of course those options are available options at additional cost, but would've put the MS6 over the $30K ceiling. then again, the Acura and Honda don't come w/ AWD and as performance oriented suspension tuning either. so as some folks like to say, reviews need be considered w/ enormous mounds of salt.
we can only wait to see, but if and when it arrives, it should be a pretty sweet ride!
the MS3 is rumored to come w/ a slightly detuned MS6 engine. if this is true, then the MS3 shouldn't have any lag either since those who have driven the MS6 say that turbo lag is not an issue.
If you drive one for a while you know exactly what to do to kick it in and it becomes as easy as - say downshifting a manual tranny from 4th to 3rd.
My turbo needed an overhaul at 40K - speed comes at a price - about $600 if I recall - and I had it rebuilt - replacement was close to $1,500.
I'm left wondering who will buy the Mazdaspeed 6, in all fairness/seriousness. Most of the tuner/subielovers/speedracers are going to be pining for the Subaru WRX STI and Lancer Evo. Will the Mazda garner a second look from these guys?
I would think that maybe the Altima SE-R would be a direct competitor to the MazdaSpeed 6, but in that case, I'd have to pick Altima hands down for interior/great exhaust/larger interior/no humped up front end.
of course those options are available options at additional cost, but would've put the MS6 over the $30K ceiling. then again, the Acura and Honda don't come w/ AWD and as performance oriented suspension tuning either.
The Acura TSX is cited for its "gazelle moves" and "snick-snick" shifter, and "sweet engine" above all. The Mazda garnered praise for "good control layout, eager responses, and power to burn." Not exactly raving over its powertrain/chassis handling. I agree that the Accord really isn't a competitor in the truest sense, as it was awarded with praise for its seats, room, and WONDERFUL engine. It is a bit soft for the "sport-sedan" crowd, but perfect for families after a sporty-handling sedan.
Sorry for the sidebar, folks!
Back to the compact cars!
In my mind, I like the 3, but it would be nice if it had just a touch more power and/or it would be awesome if the gas mileage was better. With those 2 things in mind, the Camry hybrid looks perfect.... except that I have no idea how it might drive; the 3 is lots of fun with great handling, any guesses as to how the camry might be? And would it be worth the (likely $8k +) price premium? That may be my deciding factor anyway...
Fuel economy will be around 40mpg in the TCH (Toyota Camry Hybrid) while in 30mpg range for the Mazda.
The TCH has 192hp (same as current LE-V-6), which should be good for about 8 seconds to 60. This is about equal with the Mazda 3s Auto.
The TCH has a LOT of room for the midsize class, and compared with the 3 will have a drastic difference in room.
The TCH has a really slick looking interior with its high-tech yet not cheezy "blue-ice" looking stereo/air/vent controls.
The TCH starts at a little under $25k, but you'll be lucky to find it for $28k when first released (my guess, judged by watching other hybrid releases) due to "market adjustment" and Toyota's reputation for having lots of loaded models with few base.
Big difference in price, but a lot of car for the money either way you go.
Each car has high and low points. Edmunds in this case just prefers the 3 for what it offers as a total package. Also, Mazda did not use in their safety test car one with side air bags thus the poorer rating. The Civic was tested with these additional airbag options.
Keep in mind also, Honda markets their vehicles with those buyers who have a true sense of economy in mind. Mazda appeals and markets to those of us who prefer the Zoom Zoom factor of which the 3 delivers immensely on.
You are making an assumption that the Mazda's crash test ratings would be on par with the Civic merely by testing the car with it's optional airbags. This may or may not be true - The extra airbags do not guarantee excellent crash test ratings. The Civic was tested the way it comes STANDARD; the airbags are not an option.
Warner
my guess is not too many. the chance of them being deployed is pretty low. does not mean it might not happen.
there is a lot of stuff higher on most buyer's priority list.
I buy life insurance and disability insurance too, although the odds of my using them in the near future are very low.
Yes, open another new thread!.
Civic Si rules,
MidCow
my opinion is that i don't expect that type of event to happen exactly as tested. actually, i don't expect it will happen at all. some people do get hit by lightning, but not many.
to me, the maz3 is a very good looking vehicle, and based on my very good focus experience, i would not be disappointed by it.
I'd MUCH rather have a Mazda 3, even just a base "i" model than her Corolla though. It is SOOO boring to drive/look at. Make that Mazda have SAB and we might just have a winner! For now though, I'll keep on driving my Accords and getting 34-36mpg on my beach runs!
I guess it depends on where you live - I see a major smash up almost every week - normally some jerk runs a red light - I doubt that the driver with the GREEN light EXPECTED to get T-BONED.
So when you are driving along at 45 MPH (the speed limit) and you have a green light - and if someone coming to the same intersection thinks talking on their cell is more important that driving runs the red light - do you think that even if you ALWAYS look both ways at every intersection you would actually be able to do anything to avoid this accident?
Yes, the chances of you getting in a serious accident are low. But what if it happens? Nothing is there to protect you in that event.
Safety is always on the top of my list.
Thanks z71bill
I wonder if z71bill considers a too slow of car a safety hazard.
I do, but there are those that disagree with me on the Prius 2004+ thread.
Safety First,
MidCow
I got stuck behind what I thought was a drunk driver a few weeks ago on my way to Austin - when I got the chance I passed and the lady was reading a book. I stopped to get gas and ended up behind her again - when I passed the second time she was still reading. She actually gave me a mad look when I gave her a long blast of my horn as I went past.
Apparently, a boy had taken his parents truck so he could paractice and be a a good driver. However hte driver was so short he literally had to jump with both feet on the brake to stop and then reposition himself to push the gas again. --- he was only Seven (7).
LOL,
MidCow.
Also, one might say that the comparo between the Civic and Mazda3 should not be weighed. Honda's demographic is TOTALLY different then Mazda's. If you are looking for boring, great fuel economy, and nothing really fun to drive, then the Civic is for you. IMO. If you are looking for good gas mileage, fun to drive, things that other compacts don't offer, then the Mazda3 is for you.
The sales of the Mazda3 have been mostly first time Mazda buyers. You know what that means? The drivers had to be coming outta another brand. From what I have seen, there have been many previous Honda Civic owners. Not good for Honda. Great for Mazda. Mazda will never boast Honda sales, but, growing sales numbers from year to year is HUGE, and that is what Mazda is doing.
I do think the Civic is a great car, just not for me. I don't want a "me too" car. Which means "hey, I gotta Civic"..."really?...ME TOO". Too boring, and too vanilla.
Zoom-Zoom
I read in earlier posts about someone saying that Mazda's reliability in the Mazda3 is yet to be seen because of the link Mazda has with Ford. Well, there is no Ford technology in this car. The engine and tranny is made fully by Mazda. Look at the previous Mazda Protege, impeccable reliability. I have been reading the 2006 Civic posts, and I see a lot of complaining going on about the "unrefinement" of the vehicle, and "constant rattles". Also, a lot of these owners have brought their new Civic in a few times for repair, and the dealers don't know what to do....hmmmmm...does not seem to be the owner satisfaction of the older Civic's.
Also, one might say that the comparo between the Civic and Mazda3 should not be weighed. Honda's demographic is TOTALLY different then Mazda's. If you are looking for boring, great fuel economy, and nothing really fun to drive, then the Civic is for you. IMO. If you are looking for good gas mileage, fun to drive, things that other compacts don't offer, then the Mazda3 is for you.
The sales of the Mazda3 have been mostly first time Mazda buyers. You know what that means? The drivers had to be coming outta another brand. From what I have seen, there have been many previous Honda Civic owners. Not good for Honda. Great for Mazda. Mazda will never boast Honda sales, but, growing sales numbers from year to year is HUGE, and that is what Mazda is doing.
Let me preface this statement by saying what I'm about to say is incredibly sarcastic.
I'm glad you can deliver such an unbiased opinion, aviboy97.
HAhahaha.
Anyway...I've never found the Civic to be anything but fun to drive. As far as boring goes...have you looked at the rear end of the 3? Find "chopped off" in the dictionary, and you'll find a picture of the 3's rear.
"Another 'me too'" car...
Don't hate the player, hate the buyers...they obviously know a good thing...hence the Honda Civic being the best-selling compact car in America. I wouldn't call the Civic "me too" styling...a 22 degree raked windshield that is stylish and aerodynamic (more raked than the Acura NSX), 30-40mpg, and still 8.0 seconds to 60mph? There's a reason the Civics sell like hotcakes, and it's not a rock bottom Kia-beater price.
Where is the information that states most 3 purcahasers are first-time buyers?
Oh, and did you forget that Ford-owned Volvo shares its S40 chassis with the Ford-owned Mazda? Not knocking this at all, but you commented that the Mazda reliability has yet to be seen due to its link with Ford. Last Consumer Reports I picked up couldn't reccommend the 6 b/c of the poor reliability.
I like the 3 personally, and it is more fun to drive than the Civic, but the Civic is still fun in the twisties!
I'm not disputing the sales numbers, but I'd like to see how many people bought Civics just because they're Civics. I'll admit, I bought a Civic because I was looking for a reliable used car to get me through college, but I went with what I believed was the last good generation (96-00).
I've heard a lot of people say, "You obviously made a good choice because its a Honda." Those comments don't bode well in my book. If Honda put an H on a boat anchor and called it a Civic, some people would still buy it...sight unseen even. To these people, it's all about reputation, word of mouth and keeping up with the Jones'. This is where Honda, and Toyota, rule the market. I would venture to say that no other manufacturer has their loyal customers so brainwashed.
For those who are guided by the chrome plated "H" tractor beam, it's the little niggling issues that seem to be chipping away at the loyalty. Many people are seeing through the smoke and mirrors and beginning to choose on their own. Not just walking into Mazda dealers mind you, but over to the Koreans as well. And for the tuner market, I just can't picture an EX Sedan slammed with a wing, ground effects and altezzas. I believe that share of the market is gone to other manufacturers as well.
Dave
I love how the Mazda3 drives, I really like the interior and the exterior. The only thing that I wish they had was, standard side curtain airbags and a roomier backseat.
The Civic is a very nice sedan. I like it a lot to. Its futuristic interior is appealing to me, same goes with the exterior. I noticed it's less of a sports sedan, like the Mazda is. I enjoy driving the Mazda more, and I like the Mazda's interior/exterior more. The advantages I see in the Civic are: its safety features, fuel economy and reliability.
I have a few months before I may purchase a new vehicle. I am not sure if I'd rather want a, "fun-to-drive" car, or more of an economy sedan. Of course, there are other cars I am looking at like the Hyundai Sonata (which is near the top of my "consider list") The Mazda3 looks really appealing. It's the fun-to-drive factor, that's attracting me.
So which is it? If Honda really is in a TOTALLY DIFFERENT DEMOGRAPHIC then they do not even compete with Mazda - which would make it hard for one car to be taking the others customers.
I have seen many people post conflicting information - but it is normally on two different posts - its rare to see one that does it all in one post. Makes me wonder if you even know what demographic means.
Maybe you should read the post you have just written before you hit the POST MY MESSAGE button - or better yet - know a little something about what you are posting.
The 2.3L MZR made is Japan is different then the 2.3L made in Mexico. Only the top half of the engine is Mazda. The intake, exhaust, block and sensors are Ford.
the 2.3L MZRin the 3 made in Japan has no Ford influence.
In terms of the same platform, that does not have much to do with actual "technology" that the manufacturer puts in the car.
I have seen many previous Civic owners come out of their older Civic, into a new Mazda3.
Let me spell it out for you so the simple minded can comprehend. Mazda is not the same company they were 5 years ago. Their demographic has changed since then, starting in 2003 with the release of the Mazda6. Before 2003, Mazda was a very boring company, with not much to offer, except for the MX-5 Miata. Now, the demographic is for a driver that wants a little performance, and fun in their car, no matter what the window sticker states in price. from a $15,000 car to a $36,000 car. Mazda is not stating that you don't have to pay the "performance" price to get performance.
Now, back to previous Civic owners. When they bought the Civic 5 years ago, the Mazda competition was the Protege. Well, Civic clearly won that battle. Even though the Protege is a great car, it is very boring. Also, the Civic was the standard for the compact segment. Now, that Mazda has come out with the Mazda3, Mazda has uped the capabilities of the compact segment, offering more then has ever been offered in it's segment, and STILL offers more then the Civic. Now, this brings me to how Mazda has taken Honda buyers. It is the previous Civic owners that were looking for MORE in a car the the 2004-2005 Civic never offered. I do say, the new 2006 Civic offers more then it's predesessor, but, still not as much as the Mazda3.
It's the previous Civic owners that were looking for something that Honda did not offer that are not proud owners of Mazda3's. That's why what I said before makes sense. Maybe I should have been more clear for you Honda people, for you seem to all have blinder's on.
To show you that I am not bias, I do think the Civic win's the fuel economy battle. Also, it has a great reputation, great reliability, and will stay a top seller IMO. Last I saw, the Toyota Corolla was the #1 compact in sales, not the Civic.
Mazda wins the battle of performance, driving experience, and still offers more in a compact then the Civic. Yes, to get the extras, you must pay more, but, the point is that it is offered. (leather, heated seats, climate control, xenon lights, rain senseing wipers).
I have never said Mazda will sell more Mazda3's then Civic's. It never will. Mazda is a much smaller company. I was only stating my opinion on both vehicles, which I am allowed to do here, and also facts that I have on both.
If anyone is quick to call me bias, you might wanna look in the mirror and open up your mind to something other then a Honda, something Honda people are notorious for NOT doing.
Now that I have read my post, I will now hit the "post my message" button :P
I did test drive both cars (Civic and Mazda3) before I purchased - I like the the Mazda3 better so that is what I bought.
If the cars are in a TOTALLY different demographic then no one would shop both cars - in reality MANY MANY people shop both the Civic and Mazda3.
I would say the Honda Civic covers a broader range of customers (VS a Mazda3) - but there is in fact a very large overlap in the people who would shop & buy both cars.
Maybe you should understand what a word means before you try and use it!
Can you explain to me what the differences are in the demographics of the Civic and Mazda3 owner? If they are really totally different (like you say) that should be easy. Try and use things like income level, age, education level or male /female in your comparison because (in case you still don't get it) these are the things that demographics normally uses to segment a market.
BTW what community college did you attend?
The Mazda3 is targeted at technologically aware vehicle enthusiasts to whom instant gratification is a way of life. These buyers in their early twenties to early thirties like being busy and are easily bored. With high expectations of the products they buy and the companies they support, the Mazda3 allows them to rethink what is possible in a car.
The Mazda3 4-door directs itself at socially active professionals in their late twenties and early thirties who often live in an urban area. These status-conscious buyers want to be noticed, yet tend to be a bit more reserved than Mazda3 5-door target customers.
The Mazda3 5-door caters to physically active recent college graduates in their early to mid twenties who live in urban or suburban areas. These creative professionals are naturally noticed and tend to be risk takers.
I'll get back to you with Civic demographics. I probably should have used "buyer" in stead of "demographics".
I graduated from New England's #1 public university, The University of Connecticut. Class of 2001, with a degree in Business Management.
What about you, z71? If z71 stands for something related to a cCevy truck? Do you own a Chevy truck? If you do, you must not be very educated yourself. For a Chevy is not a very smart buy.
Actually, that statement is false. Just because a company releases it "targeted buyer" does not mean those are the people that will shop them. People will shop whatever they want to shop. I have seen people shop the Mazda3 against the Honda Accord. People will shop cars that are in the same segment, as well as ones that are not.
It's all about what the consumer likes, and if that car fits their needs, then they will buy it.
If I were in the compact car market, I would not even look at the Honda. I would shop Mazda3, Subaru Impreza. The Honda does nothing for me. But, for others, it does.
I hope you enjoy your 3, and I hope you are happy with your purchase.
For all the Honda Civic owners, I hope you are happy with your purchase as well. Enjoy.
And for the tuner market, I just can't picture an EX Sedan slammed with a wing, ground effects and altezzas. I believe that share of the market is gone to other manufacturers as well.
Keep in mind, here, that this may be a wiser business decision than you might think. I'm 18, and couldn't imagine putting any of that crap (wings, clear lenses, etc) on a brand new car, much less ANY 4-door small sedan. Give me the coupe and I'll think about it... The main tuners to these cars are used-car buyers. I haven't seen a tuner Civic in my neighborhood that is less than 2-3 years old. Ever. And I have seen my share of CivIntegrAccords dropped and adorned with wings...most are 4-8 years old (there's actually an 89 Integra coupe slammed down the street from me...a senior in HS drives it; had been his father's car).
How can you say the 96-00 was the last "good" generation? I'm curious as what you mean by that...no harm intended, just curious as to the merits of the "good" ones vs. the 2001 + "bad" ones?
Thanks in advance, and have a nice day...
thegrad
To show you that I am not bias (the term is biased, here), I do think the Civic win's the fuel economy battle.
You think? There's no way to be biased about that, its just proven fact. It's like me saying, "To show you I'm not biased, I do think the Mazda has a steering wheel."
Also, it has a great reputation, great reliability, and will stay a top seller IMO. Last I saw, the Toyota Corolla was the #1 compact in sales, not the Civic.
Due to its heightened rental sales; take away the fleet sales and Honda is on top.
Mazda wins the battle of performance, driving experience, and still offers more in a compact then the Civic. Yes, to get the extras, you must pay more, but, the point is that it is offered. (leather, heated seats, climate control, xenon lights, rain senseing wipers).
Honda offers a coupe model to compliment its lineup. It also offers a high-performance Si that blows the 3 out of the water, and costs less than a 3 when optioned to the max. Honda offers a Hybrid model with which the EPA achieved 50 miles per gallon in the City. Yes, to get the extras (197 hp engine, 50mpg) you have to pay more (though not much considering the technology). The Mazda 3s I just built on their site listed over $26,000 when fully optioned. I'm still waiting on a decent affordable coupe from Mazda, which the Honda offers.
Go back inside your glass house of options, aviboy, and I'll stay in mine, ok?
grad, I happen to agree with you.
Back when I was in high school, tuning an import was just starting to get big. I live in a town with a very large Asian population, and many of the students in my high school were Asian. So, the tuned cars I saw were 90-96 Honda Civic's, and when I was in college, I saw a ton of the 96-00 tuned Civic's, as well as the 94-01 Integra's. I have not seen very many tuned 01-05 Civic's. I wonder how tuning will continue with the 06 Civic. I think it's safe at assume the 06 Si will be a popular tuner, as well as the coupe. But, the sedan, I don't see as being as popular as it once was.
Maybe a lot of buyers are opting for the manufacturers tuner. Like the Subaru WRX, WRX STi, Mitsubishi EVO, Nissan Sentra SE-R SpecV, Acura RSX Type-S. I am not one of those buyers, but, I do see more popularity in those rather than the Civic tuner.
On another note, I have not really seen any tuned Mazda3's either. I know there is a great selection of Mazdaspeed performance parts, and body components available. I'm sure I will see a 06 tuned Civic before a tuned Mazda3. It's just more popular to tune.
If you have a problem with me stating my opinion, I suggest you find some where else to state yours. I never attacked you. You seem to like attacking me, which I don't have a problem with. I like to debate. You obviously do have a problem. I feel sorry for you. Good luck with your Mazda3.
Demographics is about the people - not the car. Things like fun to drive - sporty - powerful engines cut across all demographic groups. Do you think that when you turn 50 that all of a sudden you will want a car that is slow - ugly and does not handle?
I agree - a car company can target any group they want - but that does not mean anything - Look at Scion - they wanted to sell to 17-25 year olds (or something like that) with their xA & xB - but instead the cars are being purchased (in large numbers) by the senior citizen croud. So Toyota created a new brand to go after the young buyer (hint - this may be part of a demographic group!) but instead they ended up with the over 60 croud (hint!).
Business management you say - really - I did not know that you could get BS in BA without taking at least one basic course in marketing. Or were you required to take a course but just did not learn / understand anything? I can see that you learned to COPY things - your post looks like a word for word re-write of the Mazda3 VS Civic comparison that Mazda published for their sales people. I guess copying things must have been your major! Sure saves you from the need to THINK FOR YOURSELF!
I do have a Z-71 (4x4 pick-up) bought it new in 1999 (new model that year) - use it to tow my boat & haul stuff. It has been rock solid - not like my Mazda3 which has been to the dealer 16 times in 22 months. You need to look back in early 1999 - what trucks were available then - Ford, Chevy & Dodge - Toyota had just introduced the Tundra - but the dealers were asking above MSRP - and it had such a small bed (thats what the thing in the back of a truck that you haul stuff in is called). But I don't think that my education - MBA, BS in BA - accounting major (but still took several marketing courses) if you really want to know - has much to do with what PU I drive. If I bought a new one today it would be a hard choice - the new Nissan looks good - and the way Ford is discounting the F-250 Super Duty it could even make my short list - or maybe a Ram with the Hemi - and GM is coming out with a new model later this year. I would agree that Chevy is way behind in cars - but they still make good trucks and SUV (I also have a Tahoe that has been very reliable).
That kind of childish nonsense is not necessary, and the host is pretty quick to remove these kinds of posts. I'm not sure why you point out bill here, anyways.
If you want to jump in and try and help poor little aviboy97 explain demographics that is OK with me - it looks like he needs all the help he can get.
thegrad