Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

marsha7 · December 2012

Yes, yes, yes...some of the smoothest chocolate I have ever had...no advertising (that I have ever seen), no big displays, no end caps, just damn good chocolate...

I used to get them in NY as a child, had not seen them in MANY years, then found them at QT gas stations and Mast Country Store in Hendersonville, NC...

I wish they made them in dark chocolate, but if I am forced to go off the "chocolate cliff" then I can live with milk chocolate...:):):)

uplanderguy · December 2012

Isn't it funny, when you're a kid, you don't like dark chocolate...it takes adulthood!

Usually, not always, I prefer dark now. I like dark Snickers, dark Milky Way, and dark Reese's when I can find them.

For milk chocolate 'cheapo' bars, I'm sold on the Hershey "Air Delight" bar. I probably eat one a day (sadly). I know I'm paying for air to be injected into the bar, but I like the texture and can't stop looking at those bubbles inside the bar.

stever · December 2012

I hear that "milk chocolate" is going to be a hot color next year, at least for American cars, along with (I kid you not), pale avocado.

trastevere · December 2012

I had a friend who worked on the assembly line at GM. (I'd rather not say which division.) The stories he told me made me swear to never buy a GM vehicle. Never have, never will. [I did just get me a Mercedes, though, with pre-paid maintenance and extended warranty, just in case...]

bpizzuti · December 2012

Hmm, any way you can relate the stories without revealing said division?

uplanderguy · December 2012

GM for years and years have built different division cars on the same line. Since he said 'worked', I'd like to know when he worked there.

dieselone · December 2012

I had a friend who worked on the assembly line at GM.

I worked with a woman who's husband worked in the tool and die department at a now closed Ohio GM plant. He always bragged about having a flask of whisky on the job and how he was more worried about getting a DUI on his way home than getting canned. When the weather was nice, he often called off to go golfing. This was 10 years ago, so I'd hope things have changed. I only remember that because his wife would mention when she'd get a call from him to tell her he decided to go golfing with his buddies instead of going to work.

I've heard similar type of activities with those I know who worked at the steel mills in the 80's and 90's. A HS buddy of mine was a foreman at Bethlehem Steel in northern Indiana. The mill was a client of mine at the time and I'd occasionally see my friend when I would visit. He showed me a print out of his employee attendance records. The list of workers who had missed 100 days of work over a 12 month period was shocking. I don't remember the exact numbers now as that was in the mid '90s. IIRC out of 100 or so employees on his list, 20 or so averaged 2 or more call offs per week and he couldn't fire them. No wonder Bethlehem went bankrupt.

My dad used to be a grocery store manager and he's told me stories about the early 80's when the steel mills had huge layoffs he learned quickly not to hire those guys. He called them unreliable loafs. They called off a lot and when they did make it to thier shift, they were more concerned about their next smoke break than doing any work.

bpizzuti · December 2012

That's a pretty good question too, yeah. I was hoping it would be covered in the additional details.

bpizzuti · December 2012

The golfing doesn't surprise or shock me, it happens to this day and in a variety of professions. People get paid time off to do whatever they wish with it, though 100 days per year is pretty excessive obviously. Then again, when they're out golfing, they're NOT on the assembly line, drunk, screwing up the product, right?

Having a flask of whiskey...well, one might see a lot of that too, and while it's certainly not a wonderful thing, there's areas where it's bad, and there's areas where it's REALLY bad, and there's areas where it's really REALLY bad.

I'd say alcohol in any sort of machine shop or assembly line building precision equipment should be shocking and appalling. On the other hand, I'm not going to quake in my boots if the CEO of a local accounting firm ends up blowing a 1.0 at the end of the day (his accountants are another story, especially if they're doing my taxes, heh).

We know there's cultural issues just from witnessing all the trouble Chrysler got in. I wonder if there are similar problems at the non-UAW southern factories?

dieselone · December 2012

The golfing doesn't surprise or shock me, it happens to this day and in a variety of professions.

I know and I hate it. I despise golfing and if it isn't related to meeting with customers I do my best to avoid going. I guarantee if many of us called off an hour prior to having to be at work few times a month to go golfing or whatever we wouldn't be employed for very long.

uplanderguy · December 2012

I remember reading a newspaper article about the Toledo Jeep plant, probably early '90's, where on any given day they had 20% absenteeism. I would say that's probably reduced by now.

gagrice · December 2012

I'd say alcohol in any sort of machine shop or assembly line building precision equipment should be shocking and appalling.

BP and the other oil companies in Alaska have ZERO tolerance for drugs or alcohol. That includes on or off the job. As they are living on company premises. A friend tossed one of the wine bottles off the plane coming to work in his carry on. The BP security spotted it and he was put back on the flight home. Fired instantly. They packed up his stuff and sent it to him. When you go to work up their for one of the oil companies you sign an agreement. They also did random drug testing. Any residual from your time off work could get you fired.

That is why Chryslers built in the USA would be off my list with all the drugged out employees they have. As long as the UAW protects that sort of employee, buying a Union made vehicle in the USA is shaky at best.

dieselone · December 2012

We know there's cultural issues just from witnessing all the trouble Chrysler got in. I wonder if there are similar problems at the non-UAW southern factories?

I've worked with quite a few small manufacturers union and non-union. Generally if it relates to safety they don't mess around. A small employer just can't afford to have employees hurt on the job. Workmans comp is no-fault so a having a drunk lose his arm in a press will end up costing the employer big time with increased premiums. Not to mention other potential liability costs.

Another friend of mine who's a Teamster crane operator has told me some job sites screen every employee as soon as they punch in for drugs or alcohol at random intervals. Last year he was working at a power plant construction site and IIRC each shift had over 1,000 employees. He said it wasn't unusual for 10-20 guys to get fired from the job due to not passing a breathalyzer test upon entering the job site.

uplanderguy · December 2012

I remember someone posting previously, that getting through to some southern workers at the Benz plant that turned out the small SUV that had many issues, a decade or more ago, was so difficult they resorted to pictures in communicating processes and procedures to the employees! I know that in the early '80's, parts of Georgia were starving for northern-educated schoolteachers. A friend of mine got a job there quickly out of college, at more than she would have made in PA and at that time (thirty years ago), was actually told they preferred hiring college grads from 'up north'.

dieselone · December 2012

I think it's been fairly well documented that midwesterners are known overall for their work ethic. I've had a few friends move south for better weather only to be driven nuts by the laid back lifestyle. To many of us, tomorrow means tomorrow. In some southern locales tomorrow often means "whenever I get around to it" which could be weeks;)

robr2 · December 2012

I remember someone posting previously, that getting through to some southern workers at the Benz plant that turned out the small SUV that had many issues, a decade or more ago, was so difficult they resorted to pictures in communicating processes and procedures to the employees!

Actually, using pictograms to communicate procedures in assembly plants is a hallmark of the Toyota Production System. The idea is to keep things as simple as possible.

fintail · December 2012

Funny though, I am certain in many German factories (cars included) a beer at lunch just isn't tolerated, but is completely accepted as the norm.

fintail · December 2012

The MB facility in Tuscaloosa/Vance had a big learning curve when it was first set up. Pictograms, I want to say something along the lines of flash cards, too (this stuff was in print media before everything was published online - someone else can google it). I have read that this isn't unusual for such work when it locates to the deep south. The area has overall literacy issues, this is a historical norm. From what I can tell now though, the place is up to speed. Just took about a decade or so to get rolling. From what I understand, BMW has had better luck in SC.

Maybe such tactics are acceptable for those who are used to doing business with China, etc, where is all about costs first, quality later.

dieselone · December 2012

Funny though, I am certain in many German factories (cars included) a beer at lunch just isn't tolerated, but is completely accepted as the norm.

One beer with lunch is unlikely to cause any impairment. Maybe Germans are less likely to get drunk and out of control and maybe they don't have as many ambulance chasers (no offense Marsha). My wife has a form in her company car that requires a blood test in the event of an accident whether her fault or not. That's one reason we don't take her car when we go out want to have a drink.

I'd be curious to see DUI stats and laws in Germany vs. the US. I have a feeling Germany doesn't deal with drunk driving lightly.

fintail · December 2012

Probably because their more reasonable drinking age reduces binge drinking and poor management of alcohol, the foundation of which is laid at a young age. The "21" law in the US is perhaps the most asinine and undefendable of any law on the book. But still, beer can be consumed on the job there - can you imagine that here?

And yeah, DUI carries harsher real penalties there than here, as it does in virtually every other developed nation. We'd rather use our justice system to fight potheads.

roadburner · December 2012

I grew up in a "Ford Family" and had several family members who worked for Ford at both the Grade Lane and Chamberlain Lane plants in Louisville in the 1960-2000 time frame. One of my cousins(a son of German immigrants, BTW) had a line job that required crawling under the dash to install an HVAC assembly properly. He was the only guy that actually crawled under the cowling and did it right. That made the other workers(who half-a**ed the install)l look bad, so the guys further up the line started spitting on the floorboard- where my cousin had to lie down in order to do the job right. The "Ford Family" tradition ended with me...

busiris · December 2012

Yep, everybody in the south still has outhouses and plays banjos like in "Deliverance", and a family is lucky to have one complete set of teeth between all the members combined...

I guess that's why so many are leaving the rust belt and moving southward.

And folks wonder what Southerners dislike "Yankees" so much.

I had an uncle that ran a gas station along I-75 back in the 1960-80's. He used to say "A Yankee is like a bale of cotton... Worth about as much, but much easier to pick!".

LOL!!!

fintail · December 2012

Looks like someone is defensive. MB had big issues when it opened the AL factory. That's not up for debate. These were in large part due to local issues. Nobody moves to AL, MS, GA et al for the excellent public schools.

Jobs sometimes move south because of low costs, no other reasons. People move for jobs. These low costs are usually in part because of subsidies, subsidies given while the states themselves are net recipients of federal funds (receiving much more than they pay into the system).

Doesn't look like the pinnacle of human or societal development to me, but it has to be getting better, with a northern influence and all :shades:

fintail · December 2012

I can believe it. And one has to wonder why the incorrect work was performed - likely intentionally.

When I was in school, I had a management prof who used to tell us stories about someone he knew who worked in a GM plant, and some of the sabotage they would see. Didn't know whether or not to believe him, but the "cricket" in the dash of the Ciera in my family when I was a kid might have been that.

busiris · December 2012

Well, it's pretty easy to identify one that hasn't spent much time in the south.

Are there stupid folks here?

Yes, just like anywhere else.

My comments weren't defensive, but just a commentary on how people's perceptions often don't have much relation to the truth, especially when they haven't spent any time in the place they're opining about.

You're right about the MB plant having quality issues, but less than 200 miles away there are Korean based car manufacturing plants. What is their quality perception?

Do yourself a favor and take a tour of the BMW plant or the many Michelin tire plants in SC and see for yourself.

This all reminds me of the bozos that think Berlin and Tokyo still have rubble left in the streets from WW II bombing.

Arguing with people's perceptions is useless.

busiris · December 2012

These low costs are usually in part because of subsidies, subsidies given while the states themselves are net recipients of federal funds (receiving much more than they pay into the system).

Just for the record...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/states-federal-taxes-spending-charts- -maps

isellhondas · December 2012

When you can't get fired, people will act accordingly.

Don't get me started.....I know I would tick some people here off.

fintail · December 2012

I've been to AL, MS, GA, SC, NC, FL. I like the roads, I like the food, I like most of the people (even if the politeness seems insincere to my jaded eyes). I have never lived there of course, but a longtime friend of mine has (outside of ATL, near poster "marsha"), and he didn't mourn when he found better work elsewhere and moved.

Maybe the other newbies learned from the issues had by MB, who was a bit of a pioneer? I don't know. I don't follow Kia. One can also argue how much of any of this is imported vs local. Lots of transplants in the region now. But really, doesn't matter either way. Anyone can point out the issues of where I live - I will join in. Usually smoke and fire are related.

dieselone · December 2012

Are there stupid folks here?

Yes, just like anywhere else.

I've lived in Indiana, Florida, Ohio, Missouri, Kansas, and Illinois and that line pretty much applies everywhere I've been.

There is a world class university 10 miles to east of me or I can drive 20 miles south and have banjo's playing in my head;)

berri · December 2012

Well, over the years I've had the opportunity to be based in different parts of the country. Here's how I see it:

A northern White Castle trumps a southern Krystal burger, but a western In and Out Burger blows them both away.

gagrice · December 2012

A northern White Castle trumps a southern Krystal burger, but a western In and Out Burger blows them both away.

Absolute truth. When I bought my farm in Minnesota, we got a kick out of them calling a burger with lettuce and tomato a California burger. As chains go I like Fuddruckers also.

busiris · December 2012

I like the roads.

I dunno, the roads pretty much suck around here, due to lack of maintenance. We seem to have caught up with the legendary bad roads up north.

While lots of people like to think southern states bought industry, getting them to locate by giving tax breaks/incentives (and, they did... No question), the real driving force was union avoidance. All the incentives did were to entice companies to locate in one southern state .vs. another southern state. The companies just shopped each state for the best payday.

Indiana and Michigan have figured that out by recently passing RTW legislation.

Just don't get me started on southern state governments, especially SC. Yes, our state couldn't afford the roughly $40 K needed to secure government websites (amount quoted per the local newspaper), but it evidently can afford the $12 million (and counting) to give every taxpayer ID protection after a hacker got in and stole all the taxpayer's SSN's that have paid taxes in any year since the 1990's.

On the bright side, our governor blamed the entire incident on the federal government by saying it wasn't a federal requirement to encrypt SSN's.

Go figure...

It's so frustrating...

dieselone · December 2012

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/30/silverado-hd-touareg-v10-tdi-face-off-in-dies- - el-tug-of-war/

Gotta laugh at the Toureg TDI embarrassing a HD Silverado in a tug of war. "If I were a redneck"........

They must have been drinking the stout beer before one of the geniuses came up with that idea;)

ateixeira · December 2012

Amusing, but those aren't OEM tires, and the pickup clearly has traction issues.

gagrice · December 2012

Superior design from VW. It would destroy the Chevy off road as well. The Touareg diesel is probably the most capable off road OEM vehicle on the planet. Wins the Dakar on a regular basis. Has to be a big embarrassment for the Chevy owner. I wonder how that Touareg would do against the new Dodge Ram with 800 ft lbs of torque? It has to do with getting the HP to the road.

uplanderguy · December 2012

Superior design from VW

My previous-generation Malibu seemed superior to both my wife and I than a newer Jetta.

dieselone · December 2012

Yeah, I just thought it was comical. A fully modern SUV has some advantages over a pickup truck when it comes to traction and suspension design.

Did you guys notice the axle wrap on the Chevy. I'm sure "Cletus" used the cheapest route to lift the suspension on his truck.

gagrice · December 2012

But is the Malibu in a league with the Passat TDI? The Malibu Hybrid would be competing against the superior made in USA Passat TDI. Good matchup for the magazines.

Have you test driven the Passat or is your allegiance blind?

gagrice · December 2012

I did not detect any wheel spin on the Touareg. Just grunt and go.

ateixeira · December 2012

Means nothing when the Chevy's suspension and tires are not OEM.

uplanderguy · December 2012

No I haven't driven a Passat...why would I have? I was talking about our rental VW (gee, on this forum one would think that only GM's were rental cars!).

Sounds like a blind allegiance to VW, to me. Quality issues there are OK to buffs, it seems though.

No need to get testy because someone has a different opinion than you...and that's all it is, an opinion, not stated as fact.

roadburner · December 2012

I previously posted about this over on the General Motors Fans topic, but I actually test drove a new Malibu(in order to get a $50 Macy's gift card). Needless to say, FWD mid-size family sedans are light years from my cup of tea, but I'll note that it had a very nice interior, felt solid, and drove quite well for what it was. I would say that potential non-enthusiast buyers in that segment should give it a hard look.

uplanderguy · December 2012

I had seen that, roadburner, but not too many others who post regularly here will want to see it, I'm afraid.

I was going to take a test drive while in for routine maintenance, in a new Malibu for a pair of some-designer sunglasses, but I talked the salesman into just letting me have the glasses (they were mailed to me at a later date).

They didn't fit my big head very well so I gave them to my much younger brother-in-law ('03 Cavalier and newer Saturn Ion owner).

tlong · December 2012

Have you test driven the Passat or is your allegiance blind?

If you have two categories, the INDEPENDENT THINKERS and the BLIND FOLLOWERS, I think I can guess which category applies here.

fintail · December 2012

Everything awesome about America is seen there. Lifted overcompensating bro truck with stacks, half finished cardboard 'n plywood tract house orchard, the accents, what a laugh.

Not a very well planned fight, but the truck driver agreed to it....

uplanderguy · December 2012

You could've said, "We're all open-minded, but when somebody disagrees with us, it's time to lob the insults".

Surely you can admit that VW has had quality issues and lately.

tlong · December 2012

You could've said, "We're all open-minded, but when somebody disagrees with us, it's time to lob the insults".

My definition of blind follower is somebody who will ALWAYS choose the home team even when they're not as good. I don't see that as an insult, but a statement of fact.

My definition of an independent thinker is somebody who will criticize everybody, and also praise everybody, as warranted. And will actually choose those products based upon merit. When somebody is 5 for 5 or 10 for 10 in products purchased, all from the same brand, well, do we REALLY think that in every case the purchased product was the best? I find that hard to believe.

VW hasn't just had quality issues lately, VW has had quality issues for decades. But they still were really nice driving cars, especially before the most recent "redesigns" to make the Passat and Jetta more "Americanized".

uplanderguy · December 2012

Is an independent thinker, someone who will say, "The Cobalt is a POS", yet when pressed, will admit that they had never even sat in one, yet alone ridden or driven in one?

I think that person is a domestic-industry bigot.

You did not see me say "The Passat is a POS".

Therein lies a very, very distinct difference.

dieselone · December 2012

Not a very well planned fight, but the truck driver agreed to it....

LOL,

I have a feeling it started with something like "My bad [non-permissible content removed] Silverado will pull the farfegnugen right out of your peace of crap import" while he was sucking down Budweiser;)

roadburner · December 2012

But they still were really nice driving cars, especially before the most recent "redesigns" to make the Passat and Jetta more "Americanized".

Yes, what a great idea, restyle and re-engineer the Jetta and Passat for so-called "American" tastes. Exactly what I DON'T want...

Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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