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Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Nice pick and choose. You mean gas prices in the crash after the second shortage? And where did it trend from there? I'll wager a lot it's not going to trend in the same direction from here. Or how has it compared vs wages over the past 5 years vs the past 30-35? Or 40 or more? And then again, how about food, housing, medical, education, retirement and more? Tenuous, indeed.

    Well you did mention the cost of fuel. And this is an auto forum, so gasoline is the fuel we are usually discussing. And you didn't talk about about "trending from here", we were comparing to days long past from marsha's original post. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Yes, and you picked a random point in time time to yet again play devils advocate/contrarian and somehow try to claim a cost of living input isn't more expensive, while ignoring other inputs or point time. I never questioned gasoline, and the idea of trends is just to question your random point in time. Must be some of that experienced managerial creativity that's so deserving of gold and adulation in this society ;)

    Let's just hope their one trick career of sending work away doesn't make it so there are eventually no American cars.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Let's just hope their one trick career of sending work away doesn't make it so there are eventually no American cars.

    Well the D3 are sending work away and a lot of the foreign makes are bringing production in. Good to increase the diversity from the original D3-only environment. We all know how well their management did. That plus sour employees is a cancerous situation.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited February 2013
    We have friends that took in a Japanese exchange student. He was NOTHING but trouble from day one. Came from a very wealthy family and felt he could do as he pleased. He got sent packing. I am not buying that foreign cultures are doing a better job with kids these days

    It's funny, I think it's 'American' to be down on ourselves and 'up' on anybody else. I've heard about 'the ugly American' for so many years, but I don't have to stop and think very hard about the times I've seen foreign folks (from many places) being overtly loud in a crowd and leaving an area a complete mess when they've left. And for me personally, I find it hard to believe that these countries considered 'cultivated' were able to be taken over by brutal dictators, only twenty years before I was born.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Well the D3 are sending work away

    You do know that the Fusion will now be made in the U.S., and the Sonic is made in the U.S.--both unlike their predecessors and both high-volume cars? The Camaro and Impala are heading stateside (at least some Impala production). I'm not aware of a single automotive product built in the U.S. that is slated to be moved elsewhere.
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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    I think it's 'American' to be down on ourselves and 'up' on anybody else.

    It's always funny to me how we ascribe so many "tribal" characteristics to whole groups of people when we're all so much more alike than different. Kind of like cars - most all have four wheels and get you from point A to point B. Yet we get all riled up if driver A likes kimchi on the side better than chow chow and driver B likes cloth over leather.

    The steering gear may be on the "wrong" side, but set an Impala down anywhere in the world and most people could figure out how to get it moving down the road.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    True but supposedly both the Accord and Civic are better insulated now. Haven't driven either.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Yes, praise be for external leadership who has often done a better job of both industrial and people management than the leaders here at home.

    A cancer will spread when actual workers learn the overblown perks and egos of their supposed superiors. Time for some to be taken down a notch.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    My experience in non-French speaking Europe shows French travelers to be just as loud and annoying as the worst American stereotype. I don't have any shame about my origin when I travel, anyway. The ugly American is real, but he is uncommon, and he is not alone.

    Of course, even sooner than that time before you were born, we allied with an even worse dictator and a murderous old island at the same time - no room for moral high ground there.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I spent two weeks in a 2010 Honda Accord rental. They are also very noisy. I think Honda has pulled the wool over a lot of eyes.

    Hondas have never been quiet. All of mine were loud but that was part of Honda's appeal - they weren't isolation chambers. That's what Toyota's are for.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    have fuel records from 1979 and we filled the tank on the farm with diesel for $1.57 per gallon.

    Don't forget that you probably didn't pay any road fuel taxed on that diesel. Can't compare that $5.32 to the on the road price.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Of course, even sooner than that time before you were born, we allied with an even worse dictator and a murderous old island at the same time - no room for moral high ground there.

    Actually I was born before Truman got stuck with the mess FDR made allying with Stalin. Truman knew we were in an unholy alliance with the Russians at Potsdam.

    The truth is our rebuilding of Japan and Europe have facilitated our demise on American made goods. We started buying trinkets from Japan before the dust settled from the bombs. I don't think we have ever had a balance of trade with Japan or Germany. Now China makes those two countries look like pikers when it comes to trade.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Don't forget that you probably didn't pay any road fuel taxed on that diesel. Can't compare that $5.32 to the on the road price.

    That is true. It was still the high price of fuel for farming and heating that contributed to the end of my farming attempt. Of course borrowing money to plant at 21% was a biggie also. I watched farmers all around me sell off their land and move to town and take a job that would feed their families.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hondas have never been quiet. All of mine were loud but that was part of Honda's appeal - they weren't isolation chambers. That's what Toyota's are for.

    I was supposed to get an Altima from the rental place. He picked us up at the airport in the Altima and was about to let us take it when his boss said it was sold. All they had was the Accord. From the get go it was a bad experience. The fob would not unlock the doors. It would lock them. He said that was common with Honda??? That two weeks reconfirmed my dislike for Honda.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You do know that the Fusion will now be made in the U.S., and the Sonic is made in the U.S.--both unlike their predecessors and both high-volume cars? The Camaro and Impala are heading stateside (at least some Impala production). I'm not aware of a single automotive product built in the U.S. that is slated to be moved elsewhere.

    Yes, and that is all very positive. I should have clarified that I meant over the last 10-20 years. Certainly in the last few it is going the other way - let's hope it continues.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Of course, we gave/loaned more ERP money to the British and French than to Germany or anyone else - and look what they became, so it takes more than money alone. We were buying trinkets from Japan before 1941, and Germany was an engineering leader before 1941. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a trade imbalance, so long as the playing field is level. Regarding Germany and Japan, everything in those places is up to par a lot more than with our "most favored" pandora's box.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited February 2013
    We've had the conversation here before, but I don't think any historians have compared FDR and Truman and Churchill to Hitler, Mussolini, or Hirohito. I'm for history, but not rewriting it. This isn't towards you specifically, gagrice, just the next thread in the conversation.

    I think what I originally meant at the very beginning is, to say we're all like around the world is a nice 'kumbaya' moment, but culture comes into play, of course. I don't see that a murderous, mass evil dictatorship could have happened in the U.S. in the '40's...or any other time. That's middle ages stuff, but it happened not very long ago in several places around the world. I wonder how their cultures could have allowed it to happen.
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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Regarding Germany and Japan, everything in those places is up to par a lot more than with our "most favored" pandora's box.

    Really, is that why they have large import tariffs on our cars and we do not reciprocate. At least with UK our trade balance is fairly equal. No question we have allowed China to run over US like a steam roller. Canada is still our largest trading partner. They are getting the better end of the deal as is Mexico thanks to NAFTA. The unfair trade balance with both Japan and Germany are real. We need our government to do their job when it comes to trade and tariffs.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,591
    edited February 2013
    Really, is that why they have large import tariffs on our cars and we do not reciprocate.

    Japan does not have tariffs/duties on imported cars. Or so says VW, the number one imported brand in Japan.

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  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    We've had the conversation here before, but I don't think any historians have compared FDR and Truman and Churchill to Hitler, Mussolini, or Hirohito. I'm for history, but not rewriting it. This isn't towards you specifically, gagrice, just the next thread in the conversation.

    I think what I originally meant at the very beginning is, to say we're all like around the world is a nice 'kumbaya' moment, but culture comes into play, of course. I don't see that a murderous, mass evil dictatorship could have happened in the U.S. in the '40's...or any other time. That's middle ages stuff, but it happened not very long ago in several places around the world. I wonder how their cultures could have allowed it to happen.


    It's difficult to compare the US to Germany and Europe in the 20-30's on so many levels...

    Europe as a whole had a long, long history of royalty and tiered society, whereas the US didn't (at least, officially). After WWI, many of the European governments we in a state of transition, losing the traditional ruling class. Physics demonstrates that a void is always under pressure of being filled, and so it was in that case.

    The US had bad times during that period, but nothing like the phenomenal inflation that Germany experienced during the same period. Had we experienced that here, there may well have been a much different outcome.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    What are the German import tariffs on American cars? What American cars would Japanese consumers buy even if there were zero import costs? Let's be realistic. To lump those two factors in with the wholesale thievery and social/environmental crime committed by China is kind of offbeat. Germany and Japan are huge net exporters on a global basis because they engineer things people want.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited February 2013
    American expansion was pretty bloody, teaming up with the bloody handed Brits and the Soviet monster wasn't exactly innocent, either - and it all happened under supposed freedom and democracy (just don't oppose the war or you'll be locked up for sedition). Just sayin...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Let's be realistic.

    Yes, we should be. :P

    Germany and Japan are huge net exporters on a global basis because they engineer things people want.

    Let's not forget two sides of this equation. It's not just what is engineered, it's also the size of the consuming population and its relative affluence. There are a lot more people in the US than Germany or Japan, and US consumers buy more stuff. So that's part of the story.

    The US also "engineers" an awful lot of good stuff. The world's largest company engineers their products here. Problem is that the manufacturing is outsourced overseas.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Yes, please be real, not managerial :P

    OK then, Germany and Japan engineer and produce things desired by people on a global basis - hence their historical net exporter status. They have affluent residents, too - certainly less poverty than found here. And not quite as sharp a socio-economic chasm, which can be linked to the manufacturing issue here.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited February 2013
    Yes, please be real, not managerial

    Just fyi, I work for a company and manage nobody. I'm an individual contributor, although I do work in teams on occasion.

    I suspect I'd do a lot better job than a lot of the current auto company managers, though. And I don't even know their business that well. Which might be a huge advantage. ;)

    I assume you're also not a manager. :P
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    American expansion was pretty bloody, teaming up with the bloody handed Brits and the Soviet monster wasn't exactly innocent, either - and it all happened under supposed freedom and democracy (just don't oppose the war or you'll be locked up for sedition). Just sayin...

    To me, the more recent these things happen, the worse they are....it's if nobody learned anything from the centuries-old similar stuff that happened before, even with the benefit of generations of time passing at the very least.
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  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    To me, the more recent these things happen, the worse they are....it's if nobody learned anything from the centuries-old similar stuff that happened before, even with the benefit of generations of time passing at the very least.

    How many innocent people did we kill in the last decade? That's pretty recent.

    Thank goodness our cars don't come from Iraq or Afghanistan. I wonder about India and China, though. I suspect we'll see one or both of them selling cars in our country in the next 1-2 decades.

    To me a US-American car is something produced here with high US (not even Canadian or Mexican) content. I don't really care where HQ is based as long as the economic value is here. After all, that is what we are looking for - improving our own economy.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    After all, that is what we are looking for - improving our own economy.

    That is why it is good to see the Korean, German, Italian and Japanese all expanding their auto manufacturing here.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited February 2013
    I suspect many posters here, you included, could do better than a lot of the experienced mines in the auto industry :shades:

    Yes, I am a worker (well, on a small team), not a manager. Not complaining, either - quite a few chiefs in my organization have been cut in the past couple years - and it hasn't had any real impact on productivity.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I see murder as murder, whether it was 7 days ago or 70 years ago. Not to mention, we teamed up with people who had been murderers in the very recent past. A person's friends can sometimes say a lot.

    Either way, it is all generations past now. Nobody really owes anyone anything from those bad old days.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited February 2013
    Although the right vs. wrong could be discussed ad-nauseum--the U.S. historically tends to retaliate, not start (at least in theory). But again, comparing FDR and Churchill to Hitler and Tojo is a bit disingenuous I think. Also, how did all those citizens allow leaders like that to come into place...and follow them? A cultural flaw at the time IMHO. But I'll give you the last word.

    On a related note, I saw on another forum where Holocaust survivors are not happy about the new Chevy "SS" name. While there were posters who commented there, 'how many of them are left anyway, four?' (similar to what's been posted here before), someone did respond about his neighbor who is 75 who was a survivor and will probably live another 20 years in her current health. I would only respectfully ask those now, did you complain in 1961 when the name was first used?

    This whole discussion reminds me of the weekend I was invited in 2008 to spend with Battle of the Bulge survivors at a reunion. Amazing men, amazing stories. Similarly, I'm told that if you ever went to a program where a Holocaust survivor speaks, you'll come away a changed person. I believe that.
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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    edited February 2013
    I would only respectfully ask those now, did you complain in 1961 when the name was first used?

    I've heard that Chevy actually was a bit apprehensive about using the "SS" badge initially, because of the [non-permissible content removed] connotations. But, apparently, there wasn't too much backlash over it.

    Personally, I think it was rare for those cars to be referred to as "SS", anyway. People might type it because it's quicker, but when speaking it, I've always heard it spoken as "Super Sport". Unless it was referring specifically to an engine, such as "SS409".

    As for Holocaust and WWII survivors in general, I'm sure there are more around than we might think. Heck, my Granddad, who's 98, actually got out of the service BEFORE World War II.

    And a few years back, one of my neighbors, whose husband died awhile back, recently remarried. I knew he was older than her, but when he started talking about WWII I had to ask respectfully, *how* old? I forget his exact age, but in his 80's, and pretty darn healthy.

    And, while men tend to die at an earlier age than women, there are plenty women still around whose husbands served in WW2, and probably many who are Holocaust survivors, as well.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    With the exception of full-size '65 and '66 Chevys, and '66-67 Chevelles and Chevy II's, I think the badges always said "SS" on the actual cars. But I always knew that to stand for "Super Sport". The cars mentioned actually had "Super Sport" written on them.

    I could sure enjoy a '61 Impala SS. It would have to have a manual-tune radio because for some reason I just detest "Chevy" being spelled out on the buttons! Cheesy! A "Chevy II" or a "Chevy Van", maybe, but an Impala is a "Chevrolet"!
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  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    But again, comparing FDR and Churchill to Hitler and Tojo is a bit disingenuous I think. Also, how did all those citizens allow leaders like that to come into place...and follow them? A cultural flaw at the time IMHO. But I'll give you the last word.

    As I said, I was talking about "the last decade" - as in Iraq. Not wanting to go down that OT road, but we essentially bombed a country that didn't directly attack us, and killed probably >100K innocent people. Just pointing out the that US has no big claims to sainthood, either. And I wasn't even talking Guantanamo, either.

    I'm with fintail on this one - what is done is done. The point is that ultimately historical morality of any country is not really relevant to discussing cars sold in the US. Certainly Germany and Japan have been good allies for decades. That's a lot longer than GM has started producing less crappy cars. If we can forgive GM, we should bury the hatchet of all these things and move on.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    This whole discussion reminds me of the weekend I was invited in 2008 to spend with Battle of the Bulge survivors at a reunion. Amazing men, amazing stories. Similarly, I'm told that if you ever went to a program where a Holocaust survivor speaks, you'll come away a changed person. I believe that.

    Yes, visit a place like Dachau, just outside of Munich....

    It will definitely create a lasting impression...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    It did.

    Meanwhile, back to the topic please.

    But I got nothing except pacing the Daytona 500 in Chevy's first rear-wheel-drive eight-cylinder performance car in 17 years.

    GM's Mark Reuss will drive Daytona 500 pace car (Detroit Free Press)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    On a related note, I saw on another forum where Holocaust survivors are not happy about the new Chevy "SS" name. While there were posters who commented there, 'how many of them are left anyway, four?' (similar to what's been posted here before), someone did respond about his neighbor who is 75 who was a survivor and will probably live another 20 years in her current health. I would only respectfully ask those now, did you complain in 1961 when the name was first used?

    There's always some victim that wants to see the world through the prism of their misfortune.

    If the "SS" symbol looked like the [non-permissible content removed] emblems, I'd say its a valid argument. Otherwise, IMO, its just another red herring.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    The [non-permissible content removed] appropriated an old, revered Navajo/Hopi/Native American symbol ("Whirling Logs"), not to mention a bunch of traditional uses of the swastika motif in other ancient cultures, but it'll be a long time before the symbol is "rehabilitated".

    Even the Arizona DOT used the symbol before the '30s on some state highway markers (well, that's sort of topical to driving Chevys).
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    edited February 2013
    I would only respectfully ask those now, did you complain in 1961 when the name was first used?

    Exactly what I was thinking- it's not like that is the first car badged as an SS. As an aside, Jaguar was founded as the Swallow Sidecar Company in 1922, and their cars were badged as SS. After World War II the Jaguar name was adopted because of the SS connotation- although that would have been more understandable 68 years ago.

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "SS" also stands for Subway Sandwich....

    I get so fed up with Political Correctness. Whether naming sports teams or cars, some one will be offended from some group.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I scrounged the wrecking yards for the Pontiac hood ornament for my 1947 Pontiac Convertible. Today I would probably be tossed in jail for a hate crime if I drove a car with that fixture. The later Pontiac logos were ugly.

    image
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    The high beam indicator on the dash of my '69 Bonneville was shaped roughly like Chief Pontiac's profile, so even by that time, it was still acceptable to do that kind of stuff.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Speaking of Indians, my older daughter goes to Miami University in Ohio. I work with a guy who is 65 who graduated there in '69 and loved it. Back then, their football team was the "Redskins". Now, it's the "Redhawks".

    Now, to German-on-both-sides me, Mr. Pasty White older guy, I think naming a team after Indians is a tribute to them, not a knockdown. But what do I know.

    BTW, I did a 75-minute tour of the Cleveland Auto Show. Had a free ticket and didn't want to kill the whole day. There were three Impalas there, but only one you could climb into (others were roped off). It must have been the same one andre had seen earlier--navy blue with pumpkin-colored leather--a bit much for me but my wife, upon hearing about it, said, "oooohhh". Honestly, I expected the car to seem wider inside, and the rear legroom didn't seem any greater than our '11 Malibu with 112.3 inch wheelbase, but then there was a lady in the RF seat at the time and I don't know how far she had it back. I got into the driver's seat and it was back quite a bit....I couldn't have driven it like that. The guy giving the schpiel about it said there are two four-cylinders, which I hadn't heard...a 2.4L with 182 hp and a 2.5 with 197, then the 3.6 V6 with 303 hp. He said the first ones dealers will get will be the 3.6 (surprise)!. I did like the styling, although the rear reminded me of a Sonata (you heard it here first). I watched a few younger guys (30's) with their Dads, hearing a couple times, "Dad, this is the new Impala" and one in particular said, "I don't like it". I said to him, "It should have three lights on each side in the back!" (only half-kiddingly) and he said "I have an '08 and don't like it as much as that".

    Someone else had posted in the past few weeks that the Cruze's U.S./Canada content was 45%. Every one I looked at today was 56%--still not high enough but more than the 45% reported. I looked at only LT's with automatics, but all were assembled in OH, and all had engines and transmissions assembled in the U.S.

    They had no '14 Corvettes to look at, a disappointment. I overheard one guy say "There are only three for the Auto Show circuit and I believe one is in Geneva now". Who knows if true or B.S.

    One thing I liked about the ZL-1 Camaro was its large piano-black panels on the interior door panels. I like piano black as a decoration.

    One vehicle that struck me immediately as having too much wheel opening for the little tires was a base-model Honda CR-V. Upon looking closer, they were 16-inch tires. Who'da thunk I'd be so used to bigger that 16 inch seemed small?

    Over at the Caddy display, I liked seeing an ATS with red interior--yea! not black or gray! But the car I probably liked best of all that I looked at during the whole show, not factoring price into the equation? The Cadillac XTS. I simply like that size car, and to me it looks "Cadillac" and modern at the same time. (I like the exterior size of the Impala too).

    One of the eye-candy gals at the Buick display approached me, looked at my sweatshirt and said, "Clarion? I graduated from there too!". We talked for probably two or three minutes.

    My favorite part of the whole show was looking at the fifty or so 'classic' cars parked in another room.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    BTW, the guy giving the Impala schpiel said that a car like the navy blue one, fully loaded LTZ, would be $38K. Seems ridiculous, but on the other hand I saw a Fusion, not a Hybrid, built in "Hermosilla" that was $35K, so I guess that's what top-end 'domestic' sedans sticker for these days. A far cry from the $19K I paid for our '11 Malibu which stickered for $24-oddK.
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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Now, to German-on-both-sides me, Mr. Pasty White older guy, I think naming a team after Indians is a tribute to them, not a knockdown. But what do I know.

    I can see something like "Pontiac", and the image of Chief Pontiac being viewed as a tribute. But isn't "Redskin" a derogatory term? I also recall reading that when the Chevy Apache truck came out, there was a lot of backlash. But, wasn't "Apache" the name of a tribe?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    $38K for an Impala does seem ridiculous at first glance. However, I'd imagine that's fully loaded, with Nav and everything. It's more than a fully-loaded Camry, Accord, Altima, etc. But, for the first time since the Impala name was resurrected, I can proudly say the Impala is a much more substantial, upscale car than any of those.

    Going back to 2011, I would've taken a Malibu over an Impala, in a hearbeat.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I think "Redskin" has been considered a derogatory term since some time in my adult years. Supposedly the name came as a tribute to the Miami Indian tribe down there, but apparently between 1969 and now someone changed their mind.

    Apache is a tribe. I think Chevy quit using that after '61, just when they started using "SS"! ;)
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  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    I think "Redskin" has been considered a derogatory term since some time in my adult years. Supposedly the name came as a tribute to the Miami Indian tribe down there, but apparently between 1969 and now someone changed their mind.

    My high school did the Redskins to Redhawks fiasco in the '80s. My school had even obtained permission from cartoonist Al Capp to use the character Lonesome Polecat from his Lil' Abner comic strip. When the school pesters me for a contribution I tell them I can't help, because I am-and always will be-a Redskin!!!

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    ...my cousin just asked me if they had an SS on display. They did not. Would it have killed them to have one? Sheesh!

    They did have a couple '14 Silverados. I'm not a truck buyer, but I did look at one. I like the Terrain-like wheel openings. The one on a turntable was a color very much like my '81 Monte Carlo's 'dark jade' (not nearly as dark as '82 dark jade, andre!). It could have been the lights, though. I liked the chrome front end...way more cohesive IMHO than pics I've seen of the new Tundra. The gal giving the schpiel mentioned three engineering features that no other trucks had, but I didn't bother to listen beyond that.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    As another one with Germanic/central European heritage, I wouldn't be offended if a car was called the "Teuton" or the "Franconian", etc. And names like Apache or Pontiac are nothing but good, they are displaying a reverence. You don't name a product after something you think isn't excellent.

    Regarding the CRV - a base model is painfully cheap looking, the wheels give it away. Tightwad special. Red interiors can be cool, MB offers them now. Local dealer has a phenomenal loaded white on red C63 AMG - but at something like 87K, not for me.
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