Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

xrunner2 · March 2013

The battery being under the back seat to help weight distribution also probably helps battery life in Riv. My son's DeVille that he got in Nov has same battery location.

Weight distribution? Sounds more like inept engineering by GM. Of course they also designed a Chevy Baretta or Corsica that required jacking up the engine to replace 3 of 6 spark plugs. Many other instances of poor engineering.

xrunner2 · March 2013

My last 3 vehicles all different makes needed batteries around the 4 year mark.

Try to remember to replace batteries in our vehicles no later than the 4-year mark. Cheap insurance against getting stranded and maybe at the most inconvenient time. If a normal car battery were to cost say $1,000, then understand maybe being a hero, postponing for as long as possible. But, with batteries maybe around the $100 mark, it is not a big deal to replace every 4 years, or sooner. What is $100 when a weekly fuel fill-up might be $60 or more. Or, a dinner for two on Saturday night is say $70. $100 is chump change.

andre1969 · March 2013

Weight distribution? Sounds more like inept engineering by GM.

I wonder why they put it back there on the Riviera and DeVille? On my 2000 Park Ave, which is on the same basic platform, it's under the hood, in the usual spot.

Now my 2000 Intrepid's battery was in a bad location...down in the lower part of the front right fender, in front of the wheel opening. I've heard that you can get to it from under the hood, but all the intake stuff that was in the way looked too hard to take off without breaking something. So, when I changed its battery as a precaution, at the 5 1/2 year mark, I ended up having to jack up the car, take the tire off, take off an access panel at the front of the wheel well, and change it from there.

Of course they also designed a Chevy Baretta or Corsica that required jacking up the engine to replace 3 of 6 spark plugs. Many other instances of poor engineering.

I wonder, did anybody else ever have that problem with their transverse-mounted V-6, or just GM? I would think that most V-6 minivans would be hard to get to, but perhaps not?

stever · March 2013

I was pleasantly surprised to get ~8 years out of my last Walmart battery. But my cars are older and more tolerant of older batteries I think.

For newer cars with all the additional electronics, you're right, it's better to do them sooner than later.

uplanderguy · March 2013

Weight distribution? Sounds more like inept engineering by GM. Of course they also designed a Chevy Baretta or Corsica that required jacking up the engine to replace 3 of 6 spark plugs. Many other instances of poor engineering.

This is factually incorrect on so many levels, I can't let it go.

It wasn't the "Baretta" (sic) or Corsica, it was the V8 Monza of more than a decade earlier, and it was one spark plug IIRC although I am less certain of that than I am that it was absolutely the Monza V8 model only (not four or six-cylinder versions).

The battery being someplace else than under the hood is not only good for weight distribution, it's good for keeping the battery lasting. Heat kills more batteries than cold. Next month my Cobalt is 60 months old on its factory battery. Note to xrunner: you still jump the car from under the hood even with the battery in the trunk.

ateixeira · March 2013

NA Miatas has the battery in the trunk. The used gel-acid type and had it vented and all. Better weight distribution and indeed, no engine heat.

I replaced the battery only once and it was 16 years old when I sold it. :shades:

andre1969 · March 2013

It wasn't the "Baretta" (sic) or Corsica, it was the V8 Monza of more than a decade earlier, and it was one spark plug IIRC although I am less certain of that than I am that it was absolutely the Monza V8 model only (not four or six-cylinder versions).

For some reason though, I seem to recall some transverse-mounted V-6 where they had to loosen the motor mount and tilt it forward a bit to get to the spark plugs in back? Dunno which engine it was, though.

As for annoying spark plugs, the worst that comes to my mind is the #2 plug on any Pontiac V-8 with air conditioning. The compressor pretty much obscures the whole plug, so I don't know how they get to it. I wonder if they have to loosen the compressor?

I seem to remember my Granddad jacking up Grandmom's '85 LeSabre and going through the wheel opening to get to some of the plugs. I also did that with my Mom's '86 Monte Carlo. They might have been accessible from under the hood, but it just seemed easier to get at them through the wheel well.

uplanderguy · March 2013

Here's the first thing I came across online when googling the issue:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_remove_the_rear_spark_plugs_on_a_Beretta_wi- th_a_V6

I actually owned a V6 Beretta for five years and 74.9K miles and I'd like to think I'd have heard of this issue--but I haven't. I've heard 'they're a b****', but never the OP's 'having to...' line.

xrunner2 · March 2013

NA Miatas has the battery in the trunk. The used gel-acid type and had it vented and all. Better weight distribution and indeed, no engine heat.

OK. Battery in the trunk of a sports car where ideal 50-50 weight distribution is desired. But, a Deville having a battery under rear seat for weight distribution? Anybody aware of Deville drivers ever attempting spirited driving on the twisties? No. More likely these drivers drive their cars as merely appliances to get from point A to point B.

ateixeira · March 2013

Those had big and heavy engines. You don't want any more than 60% of weight over the front wheels or the rear wheels won't do any braking, so moving a heavy battery would help.

Ever drive an empty small pickup? There's a reason they had rear wheel only ABS.

gagrice · March 2013

As for annoying spark plugs

Poor engineering is alive and well in Japan also. My 2008 Nissan Frontier developed a leak in the windshield washer reservoir. You have to remove the right front fender to get to it. And It was not covered by the BtoB warranty. So $300 later, I am a wiser buyer. Nissan gets scratched off my list of automakers.

The service people had no logical explanation on how that could happen with the tank completely enclosed.

andre1969 · March 2013

OK. Battery in the trunk of a sports car where ideal 50-50 weight distribution is desired. But, a Deville having a battery under rear seat for weight distribution?

As nose-heavy as FWD cars can be, having the battery in the back might still be useful for balancing things out somewhat. It might make for a slightly better ride, moving a bit more weight to the back.

My 2000 Park Ave feels like it hits the bumps pretty hard with its front axle, and then the rear feels like it bounces more than it should. I don't know how its weight distribution is, compared to my old Intrepid, but I don't remember the Intrepid doing that. The Park Ave is about 400 lb heavier though.

andre1969 · March 2013

Those had big and heavy engines. You don't want any more than 60% of weight over the front wheels or the rear wheels won't do any braking, so moving a heavy battery would help.

I think the weight distribution for many FWD cars is around 65% front, 35% rear, whereas with RWD cars, it's often around 55% front, 45% rear.

However, I'm sure weight distribution doesn't tell the whole story. Many FWD cars have the bulk of the engine either on top of, or even a bit forward, of the front axle. With just about every RWD car I've had, I think the front of the engine is about lined up with the front axle, so the bulk of it is aft. So even if they are heavily weighted toward the front axle, the bulk of the weight is at least within the wheelbase, rather than being front-heavy.

ateixeira · March 2013

Indeed, and we could add a discussion about polar moments of inertia but the reasons for weight balance are many.

xrunner2 · March 2013

Poor engineering is alive and well in Japan also. My 2008 Nissan Frontier developed a leak in the windshield washer reservoir. You have to remove the right front fender to get to it.

Years ago, had a Pontiac Firebird with air conditioning. During winter, when else, the heater core which was inside the car failed, coolant dripping on front floor. Needed to replace it.

Had Firebird shop manual and it had detailed instructions on replacing heater core including how to get at hoses at firewall. To get to hoses, instructions were to take off right front fender. Insane engineering. The manual did not say that hood had to also be taken off. Did that, then had to do something through front grille to get at a bolt or two for front fender. Then, finally was able to take off front fender and get at 2 hoses going through firewall.

That was not all. To get at heater core inside the car under right dashboard, had to remove A/C ductwork. But, to get at some of ductwork, had to remove center console.

Of course, heater core failed in January here in northern Illinois.

And, heater core was NOT the only poor engineering I experienced on this Firebird.

imidazol97 · March 2013

>Better weight distribution and indeed, no engine heat.

I suspect the protection of the battery from high temperatures is a prime reason. WEight distribution has to be helped. But it costs more to run the power lines to the battery in the mid and rear locations, so there must be benefit.

I know the battery on my 98 leSabre under the hood had a sweater around it. It was a coat of 1/2 in or thicker foam that appeared to be there to help protect the battery from quick heat soak from the engine after the car was shut off.

dieselone · March 2013

Heater cores are a nightmare on most vehicles that I'm aware of. It seems most vehicles these days aren't designed for do it your self repairs.

When I had the spark plus extraction issue on my Expedition, I was told if the heads needed to be removed, the whole body needed to be lifted off the frame. I was quoted like $2,500 just to pull one cylinder head. Thankfully they were able to extract the spark plugs the broke off and that still cost me nearly $1k for new plugs and one coil pack.

I've heard those gen Firebird/Camaros are a nightmare to get to the rear plugs.

I know many transverse mounted v6's require loosening motor mounts to rotate the engine enough to get access to the back plugs.

dieselone · March 2013

I saw a quickie oil lube place change the plugs on an early '00s MonteCarlo by having a strap attached to the engine while putting the car in neutral and letting the car roll down an incline while the strap was attached to a post out in the parking lot. Looked hackish to me, but I guess it got the job done. As the car rolled back some, the engine rolled forward enough to gain access to the rear plugs.

xrunner2 · March 2013

I suspect the protection of the battery from high temperatures is a prime reason. WEight distribution has to be helped. But it costs more to run the power lines to the battery in the mid and rear locations, so there must be benefit.

It would be interesting to see very well designed and controlled tests on heat under the hood of various cars. All tested under very similar conditions - outdoor temperature, humidity, full-sun or heavy overcast day, run fixed amount of laps on closed circuit such as Daytona, Taladega, Indy, etc at same speed for all cars, say 70 mph. Maybe 10 lap runs after each car is brought up to normal engine operating temperature. Of course, a number of temperature sensors under the hood and connected to computer in car and doing data collection and charting.

Then, find out which car makers do the best job of not only minimizing heat generation under the hood, but dissipating it as

andre1969 · March 2013

My one experience with a heater core was on my 1980 Malibu coupe. In early 1989 it had to be replaced, and the local mechanic charged around $225, parts and labor. I forget how many hours of labor it was, but I remember him mentioning that one of the worst cars for heater cores, at the time, was the Fox-based, '83+ T-bird and Cougar. He said that those took about 8 or 9 hours to get to!

I wonder if that would've also applied to any car on the Fox platform, or if there was just something special about the design of the T-bird/Cougar versions? Maybe the dashboard was just different enough to make it more annoying, perhaps?

I think one reason cars are so hard to work on these days, is that they probably build them to go together as quickly and cheaply as possible on the assembly line? But, what initially gets built quickly and cheaply, can't always be taken apart quickly and cheaply to get to various components.

New cars are actually quite cheap to buy nowadays, when you factor in inflation, and the the amount of content, safety features, etc. But, I think we ultimately have to pay for that low cost up front, when things do finally start to break.

dieselone · March 2013

Heat kills more batteries than cold.

Heat definitely kills batteries, the cold (unless the battery were to freeze) usually just reduces output and capacity.

I think one of the reasons batteries don't last particularly long in my SUVs is due to how much idling I do in the summer heat. Launching and retrieving the boat and jetski means I might idle an hour in 90+ degree heat. Heat definitely builds up quick under the hood while parked all day outside on black asphalt then add a running engine with the a/c running full tilt. I bet having the battery out of the engine compartment would extend it's life by quite a bit.

I had a battery die in the Expedition two years ago this July and it was a hot day. Battery could only muster a click.

dieselone · March 2013

My one experience with a heater core was on my 1980 Malibu coupe. In early 1989 it had to be replaced, and the local mechanic charged around $225, parts and labor. I forget how many hours of labor it was, but I remember him mentioning that one of the worst cars for heater cores, at the time, was the Fox-based, '83+ T-bird and Cougar. He said that those took about 8 or 9 hours to get to!

The hours required sounds about right. My brother in law used to have a late 90's F150. He was laid off from work in late '08 and the next week the heater core went out. So, he dug into it himself to safe some cash. It took him 2 days. IIRC he said the job called for about 8. I guess it was a nightmare, but he did say after he got it apart, there was a much easier way (likely the correct way) to do it and if he would have known about it, it would have saved him a bunch of grief.

But yeah, nobody wants to smell the sweet aroma of antifreeze in the car. That generally is the smell of money;)

andre1969 · March 2013

Back in early 1994, I had a chance to buy a nice Olds 98 coupe from a co-worker. He only wanted $800 for it. There was only one catch...it needed a new heater core.

It probably would have been worth it to buy it and pay to have it done, as I doubt the heater core in that car would have been much different from the one in my Malibu. But, that winter was the coldest I could ever remember, so the last thing I wanted was a car with no heat!

stever · March 2013

That 8 year old battery lived mostly in Boise, so that's another reason why I was surprised (it gets hot there - maybe the dry heat is okay for batteries, lol).

American car (companies) are getting slammed in the EU.

"Americans focus on General Motors' troubled Opel unit and Ford's losses on the continent, but every mass-market brand in Europe faces huge challenges.

Hammered by shrinking sales and economic crisis, it's likely some won't survive in their current form.

Fiat might be in the worst shape of all, if not for its control of Chrysler."

Shrinking Europe confounds carmakers (Detroit Free Press)

roadburner · March 2013

I know the battery on my 98 leSabre under the hood had a sweater around it. It was a coat of 1/2 in or thicker foam that appeared to be there to help protect the battery from quick heat soak from the engine after the car was shut off.

So does my 1999 Wrangler. My 318ti and Mazdaspeed have underhood batteries totally enclosed by plastic boxes; the Mazda's battery box even receives a constant flow of cool air whenever the car is moving as an air duct runs from the intercooler's hood scoop to the battery box.

roadburner · March 2013

I remember him mentioning that one of the worst cars for heater cores, at the time, was the Fox-based, '83+ T-bird and Cougar. He said that those took about 8 or 9 hours to get to!

The E24 7er is a particularly horrible job; you have to remove almost all the interior trim from the front sets forward- including the center console and the A-pillar trim.
I had a Ford mechanic R&R the core in my 1984 T-Bird Turbo Coupe and he charged less than $500 IIRC. He used some secret technique. I didn't ask, I just knew I had a functioning heater in my work beater for not too many $$$

andre1969 · March 2013

My 2012 Ram has an insulating "jacket" for lack of a better word, that fits around the battery. I've thought about trying to get some for the older cars, and see if it'll help out. My old Pontiacs, in particular, seem to suffer from "heat soak", although I don't know if it's the battery or starter that gets stressed the most.

On the 1979 R-body, Chrysler tried something called a "ThermoGuard", where they actually put the windshield washer reservoir in a thin enclosure that surrounds the battery, on the sides that face the engine compartment. I'm not sure how well it worked, though, and IMO it makes the battery hard to take out. So in both of my '79 New Yorkers, I simply took the things off. Of course, that now means I have no windshield washer capability, but it's not like those cars are constantly getting driven in bad weather, or getting the windshields mucked up, anyway.

dieselone · March 2013

My expedition has the insulation jacket around it too.

dave8697 · March 2013

When I first got the Riv in '04, I read where the back seat battery, charcoal fuel evap canister between the rear wheels, and the aluminum hood got the 3650 lb car to 45/55 wgt dist.

I ltook back out the new thermostat not liking the 195 engine temp and only put the cooling fans fuse in from April to Nov. With the new h2o pump I should have put the thermo back in at start of winter but lost track of where i put it. 120 F engine doesn't give much heat on 25 F mornings. The seat heater comes in handy.

Took a look at the DeVille front brakes and the pads have about .2 inches left. I sprayed some liq wrench on the bolts and tried to break them loose without any luck. The brakes are like the '98 Mustang, with springs under rubber boots over the caliper pins allowing the caliper to slide. The 15mm bolt wouldn't turn with just a wrench and a hammer. I don't want to take the caliper completely off to just put new pads on. I think there is threadlock epoxy on the caliper bolt threads. The pads are evenly worn inside and out so the caliper is not seized like the Mustang was last year. trying to find out if I'm trying to loosen the right bolts.

uplanderguy · March 2013

I think one reason cars are so hard to work on these days, is that they probably build them to go together as quickly and cheaply as possible on the assembly line? But, what initially gets built quickly and cheaply, can't always be taken apart quickly and cheaply to get to various components.

Oh, no doubt. My Malibu needed a parking light replaced under warranty, and it required removal of the front bumper fascia! When I mentioned that to a Chrysler Service Manager, he said, 'I'd like to laugh, but we have product like that too'.

I used to have a lot more 'pride of ownership' than I have for probably twenty years. Cars are so much more appliance-like than before then IMHO.

dieselone · March 2013

120 F engine doesn't give much heat on 25 F mornings.

Not to mention that's not very good for the engine to run that cool.

andre1969 · March 2013

I tried running my '68 Dart without a thermometer for awhile, and it ran so cool that, on a long downhill run, such as in the mountains, the temp gauge would drop down so far that you could barely see it register.

I didn't keep it that way for long, though. Maybe a month or so.

uplanderguy · March 2013

The 2.2 liter fours also supposedly had the problem, although I had three with a combined 349.6K miles without the problem.

jpp75 · March 2013

When I was growing up my dad had a 1982 Mercury Lynx as a company car. It's been well documented how these first gen Escort/Lynx cars failed but one of my memories of this particular car was the heater core failing every year and having a rag in the floorboard of the passenger compartment to soak up coolant.

dave8697 · March 2013

I put a new thermostat in the '98 astro last May and it still runs below 140F. It does put out OK heat after 5 or 6 minutes. So I hope it isn't too bad on an engine to run at 120 instead of 180.

andre1969 · March 2013

My '85 Silverado tends to run fairly cool. As it's warming up, the temp gauge does creep up to about the middle, which I think is 180 degrees (but who knows how accurate those things are?), but then you can actually tell when the thermostat opens up, because the gauge then drops pretty quickly.

My 2000 Park Ave has a digital readout for the temp, and it usually seems to top out at 176 degrees.

gagrice · March 2013

American car (companies) are getting slammed in the EU.

Looks more like European automakers are getting slammed. Our ties may be tenuous. GM needs to dump Opel. Who cares if the fat cat family that owns PSA go bankrupt? VW probably has the best World wide product distribution with the US market virtually untapped by them. They are number one in two of the largest emerging markets Brazil and China. I was really surprised by the Fiat Chrysler marriage. I thought Fiat was all but dead at the time. The EU is suffering from their Socialist programs same as we are. None of which are sustainable forever.

dieselone · March 2013

I put a new thermostat in the '98 astro last May and it still runs below 140F.

That's assuming the temp gauge is accurate. They likely aren't. When I was having trans trouble with my Suburban, the tech plugged in a scanner which I remember seeing 185 for water temp while my dash gauge showed over 200.

xrunner2 · March 2013

The EU is suffering from their Socialist programs same as we are. None of which are sustainable forever.

Right. Our current regime bailed out the bankrupt American car company GM and illegally gave haircuts to bondholders and special deals to unions at the expense of we taxpayers. So in "Buying American cars, what does it mean" what does it mean that we taxpayers bailed out a company that was failing massively over the last couple decades. There was a better alternative.

lemko · March 2013

There are some rough Philly neighborhoods going through this trend right now: Northern Liberties and Point Breeze are two.

lemko · March 2013

The battery for the 1956 Lincoln was under the front passenger floorboard. A lot of really old cars had the battery under a panel near the running board.

lemko · March 2013

I miss the days when all you needed to change a headlight or a bulb was a phillips-head screwdriver.

andre1969 · March 2013

I miss the days when all you needed to change a headlight or a bulb was a phillips-head screwdriver.

Sometimes they're still not *too* hard to get to. I remember replacing a headlight bulb on my 2000 Intrepid, and it was fairly simple. Just take out two really long bolts, and the whole assembly would pull forward, and all the bulbs in it would just twist out. The taillights were pretty easy to get to as well, although I think I did have to pull a piece of trunk trim loose to get access. The only light I remember being a real pain was the license plate light. It was a tight squeeze, and you had to almost be ambidextrous to reach it.

stever · March 2013

My van's headlights are just held in place by a big plastic nut. You can change a bulb with your bare hands and access is easy.

robr2 · March 2013

There are some rough Philly neighborhoods going through this trend right now: Northern Liberties and Point Breeze are two.

This happens in cities all over the country - it's part of the cycle of boom, bust, regrowth.

Here in Boston, the neighborhoods of Charlestown, the North End and the South End have had this renaissance in the past 15 years or so. Now South Boston is the new hot area and Roxbury and East Boston are both seeing some interest.

gagrice · March 2013

When I was a kid the poor black folks lived in the section of San Diego called Logan Heights. When I returned from in the 1990s the name and demographic had changed to Latino and called Barrio Logan. During the housing bubble most of it was bought up by investors and the poor Latinos are being forced out. It is becoming an upscale neighborhood. Prime location in San Diego near the new Padre Baseball Stadium.

tifighter · March 2013

My mother grew up in Logan Heights in the 50's. Wasn't exactly a posh neighborhood, by her account.

gagrice · March 2013

People were moving to the suburbs from downtown San Diego by the early 1950s. We lived in El Cajon & Spring Valley. Then moved out to Lakeside. Much of it due to massive growth and cheaper land East. When I went to work for the phone company in 1961 the warehouse was down on Commercial St in the heart of Logan Heights. It was a mixture of shops, warehouses and older homes. Buck knives was in the alley behind us. Now there is a great old name of Made in the USA product. They moved several times out to East County. Their last move was to Idaho to get away from repressive taxes in CA. Will "Made in America" survive?

tifighter · March 2013

Funny, my grandmother was friends with the Buck family. I was given a Buck Kalinga for my first birthday, with my name and birthday engraved on it and a nice presentation case. Came in handy for eating those jars of whirled peas, I tell you...

gagrice · March 2013

I bought a big Buck hunting knife from them. Used to spend my lunch time watching the boys handmake their great knives. Also had the best Mexican food out of a converted garage around the corner. The best Tostado you can imagine for 21 cents. That was about 1962. Funny the things you remember. Were you raised in San Diego? If we could split the state at the Orange County Los Angeles county line So CA would be a great state to live in. We are totally corrupted by the Northern Californians.

Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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