Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

dieselone · September 2013

"If I bought a full sized PU truck today it would be the Ram."

Honestly, I don't think there is a clear winner between the Ram, Silverado/Sierra, f-150.

IMO, it really depends on what you need/want/like. The 1/2 ton Ram's weakest area is towing/cargo capacity. It's kind of the "city" truck of the 3. I really like how it drives, the 8 speed is fantastic, and the Hemi has plenty of power, is smooth, and sounds pretty good too.

I don't think the Ford Ecoboost is meant to replace a diesel, but it does have diesel like torque. It gets fairly good mileage. Fact is, any gas engine gets lousy towing mileage.

I could have gotten a much better deal on an F150, but I wanted the Ram.

andre1969 · September 2013

Congrats on the purchase, and welcome to the club! What axle ratio did you end up getting? I think a 3.55:1 is standard but mine has an optional 3.21:1.

Also good to hear that your fuel economy is looking pretty good so far. I've only averaged about 14.6 since I've had mine, but my short-trip driving is a killer.

dieselone · September 2013

"Congrats on the purchase, and welcome to the club! What axle ratio did you end up getting? I think a 3.55:1 is standard but mine has an optional 3.21:1. "

Ugh, That is a bone of contention. It was suppose to have the 3.55, but low and behold on the axle sticker it's the 3.21.

I haven't towed with it, but I am satisfied with how it performs with the 3.21.

The problem is the tow rating is cut by 2k lbs with the 3.21. Really doesn't make much sense. If you look at the gear ratios in the 8 speed, they are shorter until 7th gear vs the 6 speed and if you compare the overall ratio between the 3.21 / 8 speed with a 3.55 / 6speed, the 8/3.21 combo has shorter gearing until 7th, yet the 8 speed appears to have a 2k less tow rating.

I should find out tomorrow what's going to happen. Part of the problem is all of the towing data at the dealer is for a 2013 model, not 2014.

As for gas mileage. I've put 300 miles on this weekend and have averaged 17.1. Mostly mixed highway/city. At 65 mph it will easily get 20-22mpg. It's rated for 15/21.

I've got the 32 gallon tank, so it will have plenty of range. It has more bells and whistles than I need. Uconnect/NAV/rear camera, front, rear sonar, rainsense wipers, moon roof, heated/cooled front seats, heated rear seats, heated steering wheel, remote start, keyless entry/start etc, 20" chrome polished wheels. Towing mirrors, class IV hitch etc.

It is a crew cab with the 6'4" box. I need to rear arrange the garage for it to fit. It appears to be over 2' longer than the Expedition was.

andre1969 · September 2013

Sounds like a pretty sweet ride! Hope it works out for you. My 2012 is only up to around 4500 miles, although its one year anniversary comes up on 9/23/13. I haven't had anything break on it, yet, but on two separate occasions it's stalled out in the driveway. And on two separate occasions it got stuck in 4th gear.

Haven't taken it back to the dealer yet, though. Other than an oil change around the 3000-3500 mile mark. I wanted to do it sooner, but the dealer said just wait until the oil change light comes on. I didn't wait that long though, so I had my uncle take it in for an oil change a couple months ago, on one of his days off work.

Supposedly pickups are the last frontier when it comes to fierce brand loyalty, but like you, I just can't pick a dog in this fight. The main reason I bought my Ram was because it was cheap. I'm not a Ford fan, but I do like the F-150. I just worry about it being a bit too "high tech" to be reliable in the long run. And the Chevy/GMC were just getting too long in the tooth at the time. Plus, the basic models, which is what I was looking for, were still using that 4-speed automatic that failed twice in my uncle's 97.

Nissan doesn't offer the Titan in a regular cab/8-foot bed configuration. And I'm sure a Tundra would have been more expensive than what I'm willing to pay.

But, overall, I'm sure that any of them are good trucks.

anythngbutgm · September 2013

Congrats man.

lemko · September 2013

A comedy with a great car chase is "Short Time" starring Dabney Coleman where he chases the bad guys in a beat-up 1970s Bonneville with a red M-Body. The best car chase I have ever seen on film is in "The Seven-Ups" with Roy Scheider. I think it surpasses the classic chases in "Bullitt" and "The French Connection."

dieselone · September 2013

"Congrats man."

Thanks!

xrunner2 · September 2013

Seven Ups was very good. But, Roy Scheieder just does not have the cachet or cool that Steve McQueen had. Think of the drama of how the Bullit chase started at the car wash. Then progressed, the background music. The bad guys were following Frank Bullitt (McQueen) in the bad black Dodge Charger and then a reversal. Suddenly the bad guys had lost track of Bullitt, the bad guy driver looking around, and then, in his mirror he saw the Mustang of Bullitt. Now, we have a chase. The chasers become the chasees.

roadburner · September 2013

Stunt coordinator Bill Hickman set up all three chase scenes.

roadburner · September 2013

Congrats, I would go with the Ram as well...

andres3 · September 2013

When 8.5% of your purchase goes to the government anyway in the form of sales tax where I'm at??

If you buy something from GM or Chrysler, your basically doing the following:

So you pay the UAW workers salaries and benefits via your tax monies via bailouts and Government Motors.

You also pay for the production of the car with your tax money.

You then pay the sales price of the car with after-tax money.

Then you pay taxes on your taxes.

You pay fees on top of other fees.

gagrice · September 2013

Kind of like the old story that a loaf of bread is 90% tax. So your $30,000 car before taxes is about $3,000.

And in CA and other states the car gets sales tax added each time it is sold. Closes city to me charges 9%. I avoid shopping there. County locations are 8% which is more than enough to swear off shopping in CA.

berri · September 2013

Sounds like airline ticket prices. Taxes are a big chunk of it which is probably why all these nontaxable fees are now being charged on air travel.

stever · September 2013

Meanwhile airports are heavily subsidized by the taxpayers. Just imagine the ticket prices if we had to pay the real costs of flying. Well, it might actually not be too bad - Great Britain privatized airports and flights on Ryanair are cheap.

ohenryx · September 2013

And in CA and other states the car gets sales tax added each time it is sold.

Probably mean every time it goes to a retail buyer. In most states (all states?), dealers never pay any sales tax, they just transfer the title. You trade in the car at the local Chevy dealer, who sends it to an auction. Some speculator buys it at the auction, takes it out of state and resells it to some $50-down-$50-a-week used car lot. The car changes hands 4 or 5 times with no tax, but when you go to buy it, you lucky stiff, well ...

gagrice · September 2013

I thought about buying this last vehicle in Indiana. There you only pay tax on the difference between selling price and trade-in. We did learn when you sell in CA to a relative like we did with the grand daughter there is not tax. You have to use a service like AAA, as the CA DMV workers are brain dead. That no tax deal does not work selling to a brother or sister. Anyone else in the family. CA is so weird.

stever · September 2013

"The U.S. and Canadian governments are getting closer to selling off their General Motors Co. stock.

At the current rate, it should take about five months for the U.S. government to exit. In total, the Treasury has recovered $35.4 billion of its $49.5 billion bailout of the automaker. That means taxpayers are still $14.1 billion in the hole.

The company nearly ran out of cash in 2008 and needed government money to survive a trip through bankruptcy reorganization. Since then GM has posted 14 straight profitable quarters."

U.S., Canada closer to selling off GM stock (Detroit News)

gagrice · September 2013

Don't forget the $27 billion dumped into the UAW pension plan. That is gone never to be seen again.

tlong · September 2013

Don't forget the $27 billion dumped into the UAW pension plan. That is gone never to be seen again.

I also remember reading here that GM is getting many years of $$billion tax breaks, which conveniently helps hide the true magnitude of the total bailout.

Let's see how they do during the next downturn. It's easy to make money when the market is booming.

gagrice · September 2013

Yes they have gotten a large amount of the Green Energy cash. For the Volt and battery factories. Not to mention the $7500 for each Volt sold.

xrunner2 · September 2013

Anybody seen a new Impala? Anybody test drive one? Also, because of good reviews of the car by Consumer Reports and car magazines, are dealers asking MSRP? And, even with paying MSRP, does one have to also buy a couple thousand dollars worth of dealer installed stuff?

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

But you're all talking like governments around the world don't subsidize and prop up their corporations, or fund new technology so it gets to global markets efficiently---but they do, like gangbusters.

If America is content to let its auto industry fail, Europe and Asia will gladly take up the slack, thank you very much.

robr2 · September 2013

Screamer ads in the paper here are advertising discounts of $3-5K on one stock number. YMMV.

anythngbutgm · September 2013

We had a sales rep here last week with a Rental. It was an LTZ in black.

Good looking car. Kinda Hyundai-ish at the back but good looking.

andres3 · September 2013

What also hides the cost of the total bailout is assuming a 0% return on our money in some "other" investment.

Invest the billions from the GM bailout in "insert high performing stock of choice here" and the true cost becomes astronomical!

When the bar is set so low (0% return), it makes it look better if I become your retirement advisor and do 1% better than planned. But how many would hire me for 1% returns?

robr2 · September 2013

Or we could have spent the money on $300 toilet seats instead....

Hey - in a twisted way, that's a bailout as well.

berri · September 2013

Unfortunately, the gov is generally precluded from participating in financial market investments (it took a special congressional approval to do GM). I suppose you could use the 10 year treasury bond as a gov cost of money substitute though, but it was running well below 2% then I believe. Money has been artificially low here, but the bailout wasn't based on financial return - it was either jobs or politics whichever one wants to chose. Personally, my issues with it are more that it should have been a loan or special class preferred stock instead of common shares so the taxpayer was better protected (not to mention the BK settlement on politics rather than legal and investment precedence).

berri · September 2013

I don't know the real story about those toilet seats and suspect I never will because news people tend not to be accountants. But chances are it's price was affected by several things such as small volume, unique specifications and/or part of a long parts list where individual unit prices were estimated as portions of the grand total. I remember reading something, maybe in the WSJ, years back where the $100 hammer was really a result of this type of unit pricing and as a consequence when all was said and done the reported hammer u/p was overpriced but the not reported in the press price of things like circuit boards were underpriced since they were all just cost estimated allocations of a negotiated top level cost/price.

gagrice · September 2013

It is not bad enough we are subsidizing GM Volt and Tesla. We are subsidizing Nissan Leaf and 9 other EVs with a $7500 tax credit. All are 100% non USA content. The Volt is only 45% US Content. That means 55% of that tax incentive ends up in another country.

gagrice · September 2013

Invest the billions from the GM bailout in "insert high performing stock of choice here" and the true cost becomes astronomical!

You are right on the money there. They could have invested that $50 billion in TSLA (Tesla) and it would be worth $412 billion today. But it would not have bailed out the UAW. The ONLY reason for the auto bailouts.

lemko · September 2013

A civilians buys a toilet seat! The military gets a "high performance waste evacuation module superstructure assembly!"

andre1969 · September 2013

I used to order supplies for our project. Nothing fancy, mostly office supplies and such. We had our own government interface that we ordered through, but most of the stuff just came from Office Depot. And they usually gave us a discount!

I have a feeling a lot of those mortgage-payment toilet seats and hammers are high-spec, and not just the stuff you find at Home Depot. For instance, the hammer might be perfectly weighted, and engineered so it's less likely to fracture and send particles that could contaminate machinery, electronics, or whatever. Like if something comes loose on a rocket just before launch, and you have to hammer it back into place! :P

The toilet seat might be a special material that's less likely to break, or designed to break into less-hostile pieces. These are extreme examples, I'm sure...

gagrice · September 2013

According to my Congressman, the high priced toilet seats and hammers, are due to "Sole Source Purchasing". That is determined by Congress. If an entire project is sourced by one company, they can charge whatever they want. If Lockheed has an order for 1000 hammers they may set up a factory to make them and charge the whole process to those hammers. Since that whole fiasco there are more checks and balances. Probably still have some of those over priced purchases. Mil-Spec can be very cost inefficient. And you may not get state of the art. Look how antiquated the computers were in the Space shuttles. My brother was involved in getting the Army to switch from Mil-Spec laptops to state of the art. It made for vast improvement in getting things done.

berri · September 2013

Gagrice - you actually believe a politician? I can give you their answer without even talking to them: Republican - industry always does it better, Democrat - gov is more honest and cheaper. Defense issue -Rep- spend more, Dem -spend less. Tea Party - Gov sucks no matter what.

I'd think the Army computer issue would be one of ruggedness and survivability unless it's just office stuff. In most cases sole source probably will cost more than competition I suppose, but then there are the BUTS. Do you want to fly an aircraft that has key components replaced without using the builder or it's sub - maybe not, there are complex interfaces. Are there high fixed costs and low volume? A second producer might actually raise prices in that scenario. Think utility prices in some parts of Texas where they opened it up. The new guy either has to string new wire, or rent it from the current one. Either way, user prices will end up higher since each now has lower revenue to absorb fixed costs. Doesn't the gov have all kinds of data, audit and legal rights it can employ with it's vendors compared to industry? I'm thinking pragmatically that if our defense stuff was a big price rip-of, then how come so many countries buy it instead of from a different country? Can't be that bad of a deal?

You know what I'd like to see info on - how much do all these government reports and politically inspired laws and regulations add to the cost of doing business?

guido65 · September 2013

As some may whine about the GM bail out, you must understand. Other countries/governments do this for their car industries. Should we as a nation allow the foreign car makers just take over our automotive industries?? I am sure they would be happy to take the money and run. Take our jobs and run too!! Now, to topic at hand. Buying American is as important as it ever has been in our nations history. Understanding the fundamentals and reasons why it is important to keep your money as close to home as possible needs to be taught to the next generation of Americans. We are in an economic battle for this countries survival over the next few decades. Myself, I try hard to buy American products and services when ever I can. I have taught my children how buying American products and services affects them and their opportunities here in America. Demand American products and services, it makes sense.

gagrice · September 2013

Myself, I try hard to buy American products and services when ever I can. I have taught my children how buying American products and services affects them and their opportunities here in America. Demand American products and services, it makes sense.

I have tried to do that forever. Problem is the Domestics offer a very limited variety. If you want vanilla or chocolate they can handle it. I like Pistachio. 6 of my last new vehicles were either domestics or mostly US content. The last 3 I compromised when I wanted a diesel SUV. I did not do it this time and am happier with this vehicle than any of the last 6. I think it is safe to say I did not leave the Domestics, they left me. Next time I am looking for a diesel SUV I will give the Domestics a shot. Never again will I settle for less to give some pothead UAW worker a job. American workers need to wake up and smell the roses. And as long as American workers elect job killing politicians. They will get what they deserve. You cannot have industry when you kill off the power sources and resources needed to keep it going. We could NOT build a modern vehicle with 100% US content. We have closed the mines that the needed resources come from. The top selling GM vehicles the Silverado/Sierra were 90% US content in 2007. The 2014 models are only 40%. Hard to say they are American made, except that Mexico IS America as well.

berri · September 2013

Same with D3 and Canada. Oftentimes a transplant like Honda or Toyota actually has more US content than a comparable Detroit brand model. It's a confusing world!

guido65 · September 2013

Berri, dig deeper into these transplants and you will not like what you find. I will give you one heads up. The tooling, (robots, machines that build the cars/trucks are all foreign made and supported. Plus, the technical support of the plant is mostly foreign, most management is foreign. Parts for the plants tooling comes from overseas. As far as parts for the cars/trucks themselves I will let you dig this one up, you won't like what you may find...

gagrice · September 2013

The tooling, (robots, machines that build the cars/trucks are all foreign made and supported. Plus, the technical support of the plant is mostly foreign, most management is foreign.

And what is your point? We have businesses all over the globe with US workers in just about every country in the World. The Japanese lead the world in Robotics. Whose fault is that? Don't look any further than the UAW that fought tooth and nail to keep out automation. My 1998 Chevy Suburban 4x4 was built in Mexico. My 2005 GMC Hybrid was built in the USA. The GMC was poorly put together. They never did get the drivers door to seal. I was happy to find a person that wanted a hybrid and did not care that it was a poorly built truck. The 2007 Sequoia was much better built in Princeton Indiana. Which leads me to believe the management and workers at Toyota are superior to GM.

roadburner · September 2013

Funny thing; the Fiesta ST is built in Mexico- including the engine, while the 500 Abarth I also considered was built in Mexico- but the engine is assembled in Detroit.

At the end of the day, I decided to stick with my MS3, and I suspect my future automotive purchases will continue to come from Hiroshima, Munich, or Greer SC- while my bikes will likely ALWAYS come from Hinckley...

berri · September 2013

Guido, I don't really know what kind of equipment is in the D3 plants, but I suppose these arguments can go on and on. For example, a transplant is putting jobs, payroll and property taxes, and the like directly into the US economy vs. a D3 plant in Mexico or Canada. I try to focus more on the US content than the manufacturer's headquarters. The business world is now global. I believe Buick does more business in China than here in the states.

andres3 · October 2013

Buying American cars what does it mean? Don't keep it past 3 years.
_____________________________________________________

I think by law Chrysler should have to post that notation on all their vehicles for the next 30 years. Sort of like the Surgeon General's warning on cigarettes.

guido65 · November 2013

Watch a documentary called "Death by China" I found it on Netflix. It was recommended by a friend. I am telling you we as a nation are in big, big trouble. Buying American, demanding American products and services is so very important to EVERYONE here in the U.S. Think just because you are educated, or rich that you are immune? Well, watch this show and you will think differently.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2013

It makes some good points (at the end in terms of recommendations) but basically it is an irrational ideological rant with very spurious accusations, poor research, and blatant fear-mongering. Simplistic on a gut level, and hits the very obvious, but really not worth watching IMO if you are interested in the actual historical record to today's complex global economics. It is so lop-sided that you'd think you were listening to a sermon. A nation should never operate from fear.

berri · November 2013

The global economy always seems portrayed by either side of the argument as black and white. But I think it is a very complicated matter with many shades of grey. Each side has some merits and some extremism. Many manufacturer's see China as a profit enhancer, while many labor groups see it more as a job stealer. My real concern is that we are losing our industrial base in some critical areas like electronics. What happens if China decides to stop shipping computer or communications parts and equipment? OTOH, if China picks a fight with us (or vice versa) it really wreaks havoc on both sides since both countries have rather large investments in each other. Does this mean the global economy reduces the likelihood of military confrontations or major global wars because of these inter dependencies, or does the competition and concern raise tensions, perhaps too far? I don't think anyone really knows really. Both countries ruling governments seem to have more than a few crackpot extremists! Hopefully, pocketbooks and the threat of world annihilation keep it all in check.

fintail · November 2013

The only saving grace in this shortsighted unfair trade globalized mess is that we now have mutually assured economic destruction to go along with the nuclear type. However, the offshored manufacturing base and the wholesale theft of IP are issues the free traders don't seem to want to touch (along with social and environmental catastrophes, of course).

tlong · November 2013

The global economy always seems portrayed by either side of the argument as black and white. But I think it is a very complicated matter with many shades of grey.

Absolutely. Problem is that a lot of people don't do shades of grey very well. It's always black and white. Like our elected officials.

gagrice · November 2013

A nation should never operate from fear.

I totally agree with you. I also believe we have our heads in the sand concerning the NWO. The leaders behind a one world government like Soros are bad people. They do everying out of their desire for control of the masses and greed. Soros claims to hate Communism. Yet how different is the Oligarchy he is part of in this country? He is not the first or the Last. Walter Reuther was a communist sympathizer and spent time in the Soviet Union before getting involved in the UAW movement. That to me taints the Union. I don't think the rank and file want what is coming for the USA. Being told what to do and how much you will get for doing it.

FYI last night at the Great Falls Grange debate, Democrat delegate candidate Kathleen Murphy said that since many doctors are not accepting medicaid and medicare patients, she advocates making it a legal requirement for those people to be accepted.

She did not recognize that the payments are inadequate to cover the doctors' costs. She also did not recognize there is a shortage of over 45,000 physicians now and that it is forecast to be 90,000 in a few years.

Democrats appear to want to make physicians slaves of the state, but Democrats don't admit they would just drive more doctors out of practice into retirement and other occupations.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2013

Well when people feel helpless they tend to spin out very complicated conspiracies. I think it's a way of assuring ourselves that things can't be *that* fragile or *that* susceptible to mere chance, stupidity and random events.

But I think they are just that. You don't need conspiracies to explain things. The idea of NWO is actually pretty laughable, since you can't even get one house of congress to cooperate on anything.

gagrice · November 2013

I will agree the Senate is filled with old losers and should all be voted out.

Not much of our Constitution that is ublemished. What is going to stop US from giving over more power to the UN. Like the recent gun purchase agreement in the UN? I would feel a lot better if we got out of the UN and especially the WTO. Giving up our rights on foreign food labeling was a big mistake.

Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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