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Comments
I guess all I can do is pray the S80 isn't ridiculously high and a good lease deal can happen. The residuals should be very high making a lease attractive one would think :confuse:
Rocky
P.S.
Are you "volvomax" going to look at the S80 as your next car ?
The only dynaudio system worth getting is the 900 watt system in the C70. But that is ONLY in the C70.
The R is going away because the current S60 is coming to the end of its model cycle.
As for the S80, "ridiculous" is in the eye of the beholder.
The V8 is gonna be in the low to mid $50's and will lease like a car leases in that price range.
It will be a less expensive alternative to the MB E500 or BMW 545i. Not to mention the Lexus GS430 and Infiniti M45.
My S60R lease has a year and a half to run, so I don't know what I'm going to get yet. My girlfriend wants the new S80, but I may look at the C30 and replace my 99 vette w/ a newer one or some other toy.
The only dynaudio system worth getting is the 900 watt system in the C70. But that is ONLY in the C70.
Well I read somewhere on the net the S80 has 650 watts, plenty for me.
Volvomax, do you think the C70 convertible could ever get a "R" version with AWD ? I don't understand Volvo sometimes. They have a 425+ hp. Turbo I-5 on the shelf and I'm waiting for them to use it in production.
The R is going away because the current S60 is coming to the end of its model cycle.
That is dumb IMHO. If I was Volvo, I'd drop in a 425 Turbo I-5, put in some ventilated seats, style the interior like the S80, drop in a 900 Watt Dynaudio system, and you might possibly have the greatest sedan ever made :shades:
The V8 is gonna be in the low to mid $50's and will lease like a car leases in that price range.
It will be a less expensive alternative to the MB E500 or BMW 545i. Not to mention the Lexus GS430 and Infiniti M45.
So you don't expect the S80 to have class leading residuals ?
My S60R lease has a year and a half to run, so I don't know what I'm going to get yet. My girlfriend wants the new S80, but I may look at the C30 and replace my 99 vette w/ a newer one or some other toy.
I'll be your girlfriend if you buy me a Volvo S80 J/K :P
My wife really likes the S80 also pal. She would feel secure knowing are 2 kids are protected by the safest car perhaps on earth.
I like I said many times think the S80, is the best sedan on the market. The car was built around safety, and seems comfy. About the only thing I'd probably change about it would be to add a stick. I also don't understand why they just didn't drop in a Turbo I-5 with 425-450 hp. I would think that a Turbo I-5 would be just as cheap as the Yamaha V-8 and it would make more sense to use a Scandinavian, engine over a Japanese IMHO.
Well if I can somehow get a good lease deal when this car becomes available, sign me up. :shades:
Rocky
Volvo most emphatically does not have a 425hp Turbo 5 motor sitting on a shelf. It is possible to modify the R engine to produce that hp level, but Volvo is not in the business of building hot rods. Now, a turbo 5 under the kind of stress needed to produce 400+ hp won't live long and is not easy to drive. A V8 is a much better solution and chances are, if there is a new S60R it will carry a modified version of the Volvo designed, Yamaha produced V8.
As for the S80, residuals aren't what people think they are anymore. The 48 mo residual on the BMW 550i is 36% of MSRP.
The Mercedes E500 is 38%, Lexus GS430 is 36%.
Doing the math, you are looking at lease pmts in the 700-800/mo range.
Rocky
Rocky
Don't believe everything Edmunds tells you.
Not too long ago they were convinced that Volvo was going to use the Ford Explorers V8 for the XC90
A peaky turbo engine is a horrible idea in a heavy SUV.
Volvo has experimented w/ a supercharged version of the V8, but it has only gone as far as the drawing board.
The S60 is the 3 series competitor.
With the current lease deals, the R is a better deal than any 3 series.
BMW doesn't have the highest residuals anymore. The 330xi @ 48 mos is 44%. Which is good, but not outstanding.
Also, BMW finance charges high money factors, esp on new models.
Rocky
Also, resale value has nothing to do w/ lease residuals.
Honda's typically have the best resale value, but average lease residuals.
Also, resale value has nothing to do w/ lease residuals.
Honda's typically have the best resale value, but average lease residuals.
Well that is quite the opposite of what my sales manager and friend in Michigan has told me. Ryan, said that estimated resale directly affects what the residuals will be
on a particualr vehicle. BMW had the best residuals of any brand in 2005'.
My former 2005' Acura TL had a strong residual also at the time, but not a high as BMW's. I almost baught the Bimmer, because of this but got a good deal on the TL, which was FWD and I needed FWD or AWD at that time.
Rocky
I wonder if this vehicle once it reaches production will be built in Sweden ? The MKS, is almost as attractive as the S80. I wonder if the price will be cheaper than the S80 ? It also has a 500 watt DVD-Audio THX II Certified audio system with 14 speakers. :surprise: This could be the greatest factory unit in the world. :surprise:
Man another choice for ol' Rocky.
Rocky
The current 2007-... S80 is built on a new EUCD (medium-large) platform shared between Ford, Volvo and, potentially, Jaguar.
So, MKS and a new S80 are two very different cars.
P2 cars will not be built in Sweden. The former P2 platform becomes an American one, while EUCD - is a new European medium-large sedan one for the Ford family.
Ford does not like to build the same platform in metric and American standard environments, duplicating the part bins. That is one of the reasons why we most likely will not see European Focus here in US.
MKS has great genes, but it looks like... well, Lincoln...
May be when I am 70, I might consider it.
Price wise, yes, same as XC90.
The difference between base FWD 2.5T and V8 AWD is $11K - 36K vs. 47K.
So, if rock-bottom S80 is 40K, the V8 AWD(although with more gadgets) will easily reach mid-50th.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EUCD_platform
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_MKS
Thanx for the reply pal. If the S80 V-8 does reach into the mid $50's loaded, then that will be well out of what I want to spend, and will be ashame since I was kinda pondering getting one. That would leave me a choice of a BMW 335i sedan and possibly a Acura TL Type-S. I was willing to pay up to $47K for a S-80 V-8 loaded. Oh well the 335i and TL Type-S are both good choices and values, thus I won't be ashamed to own either.
Rocky
S80 competes with 530/545 and even with V8 will be less expensive than either of them (feature for a feature).
I am pretty sure, also, that with MSRP of 50+K, there will be, eventually, 47K deals available.
However, I, personally, am looking forward to replace my 2.9 with new 3.2 I6 in 2008.
Six cyl. will be plenty for my driving style, and I expect OSD prices for it to be around 35K (38-39K domestically).
Rocky
RL is much more expensive, but yet, does not have the same presence as S80 IMHO.
And I still do not understand how you can cross shop 3 series and S80.
The BMW 3 is a small sport sedan, the S80 is rather large luxury cruiser.
Second, Acura is decontenting the RL because they can't give them away.
As for the 3 series vs S80, it is silly to compare cars in 2 totally different classes and say that one is better than another. Cars can only be compared in the same class.
The 3 series will be cheaper than the S80 V8, and it should be. Compare a 550i to the S80 V8 and see which one is a better value.
The last S80, "no offense" was already old and tired when it was introduced. It was under powered and had it's fair share of electrical problems something I still fear about the next S80. The new 2007' S80, I agree might be a good value and has decent acceleration for being a large sedan. It being roomy and arguably the safest car in the world is why I'm so interested in it. The interior design IMHO is also the best of any car under $100K. The exterior is very strong and manly and is far from being what some people call a "chick car"
a V-8, isn't close to a bargain IMHO. I think most folks would agree with me.
RL is much more expensive, but yet, does not have the same presence as S80 IMHO.
A loaded up Acura RL is $49K and can be baught for much less than that. I agree it might not have the presence of the S80, but it's more reliable, has more gadgets, also has the most advanced AWD system on the market (SH-AWD) and get's better gas mileage. Last but not least is much cheaper than a fully loaded S80, especially if your
mid-50's MSRP S80 V-8 figure is correct.
And I still do not understand how you can cross shop 3 series and S80.
Yes the two vehicles are much different. The BMW 335i for instances offers benchmark performance and handeling with a decent amount of gadgets and German engineering. The S80 offers benchmark safety, Scandinavian design, and quality, along with a superb fit and finish. The new 2007' S80 V-8 could be pretty expensive but yes when compared to BMW 545 or Mercedes E-Class it looks like a bargain in most eyes. However the Acura RL, like I said is $6K cheaper on MSRP and can be purchased at or below invoice knocking off atleast $3-4K more off.
The BMW 3 is a small sport sedan, the S80 is rather large luxury cruiser.
Okay fair enough. I know that comparo might seem weird, but like I said I'm pretty flexible and my 2 kids will fit in either one. Yes I personally would rather drive a S80, but the mid $50's MSRP would be much more than what I personally want to spend.
Take care pal.-Rocky
The original S80 was the most advanced car on the planet when it was introduced in 1998. it's 18 on board computers and fiber optic information system were a generation ahead of the Germans, The S80 T6 could do 0-60 in 6.5 sec and reach a top speed of 155 MPH. Only the most expensive cars from Mercedes or BMW could top it.
As for the RL, there are reasons why there are deals on it.
Why a car as new as the RL is being given away should set off some alarm bells in the savvy consumer.
That isn't a big deal to me like it is to others.
Second, Acura is decontenting the RL because they can't give them away.
Actually that rumor is only somewhat true. The 2007' RL has actually recieved a few upgrades in "Gadgetology". The following has been added MP3 jack, an optional rear park assist, the so-called "base" model is a non-nav system car.
The new standard technology packages gets nav, the rear view cam, Active Front Lighting, wood interior accents, while the stage II upgrade adds the Collision Mitigation Braking System, and PAX run-flat tires.
The botton line is the Acura RL gets High-Tech Goodies In A Low-Profile Package. The Standard RL still offers serious luxury and brilliant Super Handeling All-Wheel Drive system, but now opens under $50K.
Rocky
The original S80 was the most advanced car on the planet when it was introduced in 1998.
"No offense" Volvomax, how in the heck can you say that is beyond me ? :confuse:
The 1998' Cadillac Seville STS was as, if not more advanced then the S80 even way back then. Mercedes and BMW, I would say would have something to say about that also.
it's 18 on board computers and fiber optic information system were a generation ahead of the Germans
What did those 18 on board computers do that made it so advanced ? Based on my current knowledge the Volvo wasn't any more advanced that MB and BMW. I guess you explaining those on-board computers and there function will broaden my knowledge.
The S80 T6 could do 0-60 in 6.5 sec and reach a top speed of 155 MPH. Only the most expensive cars from Mercedes or BMW could top it.
Ummmm, I'm calling B.S. on this one pal.
The Lexus LS, GS, the other Swede- Saab 9-5, Infiniti Q45, even the Cadillac Seville STS could easily go from rest to 60 in 6.4 and was *elect-limited to 155 mph :P my 2002 was the same as the 98' and I accomplished the top end task. And Of course Mercedes and BMW, along with Audi, Jaguar, etc, could also easily complete this task.
As for the RL, there are reasons why there are deals on it.
Americans prefer V-8's in the premium class. I think if Acura would of turbo-charged the V-6 to 300 and somethin hp. it might of added some clout to the RL. The mininum hp. in the premium class is atleast 300, and the RL falls short at 290 hp. even though it still delivers decent performance.
Why a car as new as the RL is being given away should set off some alarm bells in the savvy consumer.
However for that Savy consumer like myself, one can buy a RL thousands cheaper than a S80. The S80 will perhaps be a pay sticker, or forget it type of car. If the lease rates are good I might be willing to lease one.
Rocky
You one of those who can never stop fighting, even if you switch sides many times over.
If 6 cyl. is fine - then 3.2 I6 S80 is going to be a really great deal in a premium market - German or Japanese.
If V8 is a must - then RL is a one hugely overpriced Honda, no matter how many MP3 jacks it has.
So, pick your side and stick to it...
What is your point? 50K is too much for AWD V8 S80?
Fine, go and buy less expensive one.
Speaking techno advances of 1998 S80 - here is just a few examples
DSTC - the best traction and stability control system in the world - was more advanced than ANY similar systems in 1998.
traverse I6 - provides best interior space in class while keep very modest exterior dimensions.
Dolby ProLogic II sound system - best in the world in 1998 and second ONLY to Mark Levinson. system of Lexus 400 that is mega$$$ more expensive a few years later.
Computer controlled Inflatable Curtains - completely unique in 1998.
The caddy was no more advanced than any other car of the day.
All of Volvo's electrical functions were tied together over a computer network. The car could literally be reprogrammed just like a pc. Prior to the S80, car onboard computers were only tasked to monitor engine demands. By switching to the fiber optic system multiple commands could be sent down the same lines to the S80's various systems. This allowed an overall reduction of the wiring harness by 50%.
As for you calling BS, please do some research before you answer.
The 99 Lexus LS400 reached 60 mph in 7.1 sec
The 99 Cadillac STS reached 60mph in 6.8 sec.
The 99 Infiniti Q45T reached 60 mph in 7.1 sec.
The 99 Saab 9-5 SE reached 60 mph in 7.5 sec.
So you see, the T6 was the equal or better of other cars in its class, even cars above its class.
As for the Acura, savvy consumers aren't buying the RL. Price shoppers are. At least some of them.
There are basically 2 types of buyers, those who buy what they really want to drive and are mindful of the cost of doing so, and those who hunt for deals and will drive anything.
Obviously, we all have budgets that we have to live within and we should strive to do the best given our budget constraints.
There are very vaild reasons why different cars cost what they cost.
I would love to drive a new BMW M5, but I'm not going to spend $90,000 to do so. However, I won't poo-pooh the M5 and say that the Infiniti M45 is a better car simply because it is cheaper.
Clearly, Acura erred seriously in not having a V8 option for that car.
According to Edmunds, the TMV of a new RL w/ Nav and Tech pkg is $47,895. Which is more than the prospective S80 3.2 and less than the S80 V8.
The standard RL comes in at a TMV price of $44,000.
Much closer to the S80 3.2
The caddy was no more advanced than any other car of the day.
That's what I was trying to say to you about the Volvo S80 3.2, it wasn't anymore advanced than a Seville STS. If anything the STS was more advanced because of all the features the S80 didn't have
All of Volvo's electrical functions were tied together over a computer network. The car could literally be re programmed just like a pc. Prior to the S80, car on board computers were only tasked to monitor engine demands. By switching to the fiber optic system multiple commands could be sent down the same lines to the S80's various systems. This allowed an overall reduction of the wiring harness by 50%.
Well according to the biased CR mag it got a poor rating on electrical problems like alot of European/Scandinavian vehicles.
As for you calling BS, please do some research before you answer.
The 99 Lexus LS400 reached 60 mph in 7.1 sec
The 99 Cadillac STS reached 60mph in 6.8 sec.
The 99 Infiniti Q45T reached 60 mph in 7.1 sec.
The 99 Saab 9-5 SE reached 60 mph in 7.5 sec.
I have done some research and have read lots of 0-60 test over the years in Car Mags such as Motor Trend, Road & Track, Car and Driver, Automobile, etc etc etc.
I also found this site when somebody was arguing with me on the factory performance of my former Acura TL.
http://www.albeedigital.com/super coupe/articles/0-60times.html
So you see, the T6 was the equal or better of other cars in its class, even cars above its class.
Hey I'm not dogging the T6 engine. I think it still would be a good choice if they would of bumped the power in it. I personally would rather Volvo use S60R's Turbo 5 and add another turbo to get the desired or above average performance.
As for the Acura, savvy consumers aren't buying the RL. Price shoppers are. At least some of them.
I'm a bit suprised the RL hasn't sold better. It needs a shot of steroids in the engine dept.
There are basically 2 types of buyers, those who buy what they really want to drive and are mindful of the cost of doing so, and those who hunt for deals and will drive anything.
What's wrong with doing a combination of both ?
Obviously, we all have budgets that we have to live within and we should strive to do the best given our budget constraints.
Well not all have budget contraints,
look at Jay Leno :P
There are very vaild reasons why different cars cost what they cost.
Ummmm, I strongly disagree with you. 2-examples are Mercedes, and Lexus's, cost way more than they should.
I would love to drive a new BMW M5, but I'm not going to spend $90,000 to do so. However, I won't poo-pooh the M5 and say that the Infiniti M45 is a better car simply because it is cheaper.
The BMW M5 is a pretty nice car, but that doesn't mean it's worth $90K in my eyes. It's for the Rich Yuppie in his mid-life crisis IMHO. :P OTOH The Infiniti M45 driver has alot more "gadgets" than the M5 driver to occupy his time when he isn't going Mach-1 and not to mention the Q45 is more reliable on top of having a cheaper price.
Clearly, Acura erred seriously in not having a V8 option for that car.
I agree, but if Acura wanted to keep the 3.5 V-6, don't you think a couple of Turbo's would of given it atleast a little street cred ? I personally think a couple of turbo's with 350-450 hp. might of made it a hot seller. They could of raised the price $5K and it still would of been a steal. I also think a 6-speed manuel would of helped also to go along with the SH-AWD. :shades:
According to Edmunds, the TMV of a new RL w/ Nav and Tech pkg is $47,895. Which is more than the prospective S80 3.2 and less than the S80 V8.
It's basically IMHO a better deal than both. Look at all the technology you get for your dollar.
The standard RL comes in at a TMV price of $44,000.
Much closer to the S80 3.2
I guess it's a matter of choice. I've never baughten base models, and ya know what ???? I never will.
Rocky
You one of those who can never stop fighting, even if you switch sides many times over.
Switch sides :confuse: I also wouldn't call us fighting, but having a healthy debate on the S80 and is it worth it or not ? Also in a fight/argument, your messing with the wrong guy. :P J/K :P
If 6 cyl. is fine - then 3.2 I6 S80 is going to be a really great deal in a premium market - German or Japanese.
Not to me, but maybe to others such as you ? I don't care so much about the size or displacement of the engine, as much as I care about the performance, reliability, fuel economy, of the engine.
If V8 is a must - then RL is a one hugely overpriced Honda, no matter how many MP3 jacks it has.
Like I said the V-8 option isn't a must for me. The biggest problem with the V-6 VTEC it is under-powered when compared to the others.
So, pick your side and stick to it...
We can't have a little debate over "X car vs. S80". I like I said like the S80 alot, but I'm not sure if the product reflect the price. Alot of my family works for GM/Delphi, and with my GM discount I can't afford a AWD Caddy STS V-8.
Dad retired from GM yesterday. Want to talk about over priced ? The Caddy STS V-8 AWD is $66K. The loaded up STS
V-8 RWD $63K. The STS-V is $79K :surprise:
What is your point? 50K is too much for AWD V8 S80?
$50K isn't to much, but $55-60K would be.
Fine, go and buy less expensive one.
I might have to. :sick:
Speaking techno advances of 1998 S80 - here is just a few examples
DSTC - the best traction and stability control system in the world - was more advanced than ANY similar systems in 1998.
I never heard that. I'll take your word on that one.
traverse I6 - provides best interior space in class while keep very modest exterior dimensions.
Okay interesting.;)
Dolby Pro Logic II sound system - best in the world in 1998 and second ONLY to Mark Levinson. :surprise: Ummmm in 98' the Bose 4.0 425 watt w/ a 12-inch sub might have something to say about that. Yes the Mark Levinson, could be argued as the best. Was the Levinson, unit back then
DVD-Audio :confuse: Now the Levinson unit has alot of competition. Some claim other are better. Even the Dynaudio in Volvo's and VW's are getting jocked.
system of Lexus 400 that is mega$$$ more expensive a few years later.
Yes they are expensive, and doubt it anymore the product doesn't reflect it's price. Some are saying the Acura RDX 450-Watt ELS system is the best now out of the factory units.
Computer controlled Inflatable Curtains - completely unique in 1998.
Was Volvo, the only one with em' I thought Saab had em' also, maybe I'm wrong.
We can't be concerned so much about yesterday, as we should be about the future. The bottom line is most Volvo's are under-powered except for the current S60R and new 07' S80.
Rocky
What do you drive today?
I love Acura's products, but Honda Finacial didn't take care of me like their reputation. This is why I'm considering a Volvo. I would like to buy GM+ use my employee discount I get from dad, but when your own father tells you not to buy GM' because of Delphi parts made buy the untrained new people, that's enough to scare you. Dad told me he'd be okay with me buying a Volvo because they are Union Made and their labor pool is part of the UAW.
I am a DOE union worker and prefer to buy union made vehicles, even if it's supporting union jobs over in Sweden. I having Scandinavian blood (Norway, Denmark, and a little Swede, don't mine supporting my race. I atleast feel comfortable those workers are making a good wage with benefits to take care of his/hers family.
Rocky
You have to learn to separate toys from real advances im technology.
Any advance in the thechnology of the automobile doesn't come without a certain amount of difficulties.
Volvo just went through them sooner.
BMW and Mercedes went through the same thing when they switched systems. So did Lexus, now Toyota is having the same problems w/ the new Camry and the Avalon.
I am not even going to get into a discussion of the relative merits of the M5 over the Infinti's. Your statements lend me an insight into your thinking and it would be pointless to debate it.
The technology of the M5 and what it can do is amazing. Regardless of who you claim buys it.
There are real tangible reasons why Mercedes, BMW's and Lexus' cost what they do. If you haven't had the opportunity to spend any real time in those cars I wholeheatedly urge you to do so. You may be very suprised at what you learn.
I have never had the oppertunity to spend any real significant time in the past in those cars since my family works for GM, and up until recently I've haven't considered other makes/models. Our dealerships down here are very reluctant to hand over the keys for one to get to know those models. The MB and Volvo dealerships are about
2-1/2 hours away and to spend just a nite with one isn't worth my time.
However the BMW dealership is only 45 minutes away and yes I might spend a nite with a 335i sedan when they become available.
If I make it down to Lubbock I will take a S80 for a test drive (depends on MSRP of S80 V-8)
Rocky
I have very strong opinion that at the moment S80 had the best overall value among premium "near-luxury" segment.
I still believe that new S80 presents great value too, and I am planning to get one through OSD in 2008.
Although, I would not mind for it to grow in every dimension, because most of competitors are bigger now than they were in 1999, but S80 is still of very formidable size and has plenty of interior room.
I was once like you, I was only exposed to domestic cars and thought very highly of them.
But, being in the business has allowed me to learn alot.
Once you get exposed to the engineering of European cars you see how seriously the Europeans take thier work and how different they are from the domestic or japanese brands.
Like I said I agree with you that both are very nice rides. I will have to weigh my options very seriously. The biggest obstacle for me will be getting a Volvo serviced if I decide to go Volvo route. 2-1/2-3 hours travel time for maintence is a heck of a drive and sacrifice.
Rocky
I was once like you, I was only exposed to domestic cars and thought very highly of them.
I still do think very highly of certain domestic made cars. They also are getting better and do rank higher on reliabilty than the Euro's and Scandinavian built cars. I do believe Volvo like MB, BMW, Audi, etc are better built and engineered. Some americans try to blame it all on the UAW, but the Scandinavians and most European have unions as their workforce. The diference between the party's is the Euro-navians have pride, starting from the top all the way down to the lowest grunt. They believe in buying the best materials to make there cars.
But, being in the business has allowed me to learn alot.
Once you get exposed to the engineering of European cars you see how seriously the Europeans take thier work and how different they are from the domestic or japanese brands.
I agree with you pal, however their are those who would strongly disagree with us saying that Euro cars are unreliable, over-priced, liberal-socialist, yuppie, mobiles.
Even my now retired dad, said he could handle me driving a Volvo, because they are union made, and the workers are connected to the UAW. Dad fears many GM cars eventually will be imported from China. He says it's going to start with parts, and then proceed to finshed products.
Rocky
Comapnies such as JD Power make no effort to distinguish between something that effects reliability such as the tranny falling out and something that is a defect, such as a faulty cup holder. Even so, the gap between the best and the average is not that great.
Other companies like Consumer Reports have a very small sampling of most cars. More Camry's are sold than say Mercedes SL's, so one bad report on an SL has more effect than one bad report on a Camry.
Also, the technological field isn't level. Companies that achieve technical breakthroughs often have to learn as they go. This means a simpler car will be percieved as more reliable than a more complex car.
I would never buy a new American car because I know how poorly engineered and put together they are. They are very simple vehicles technically speaking so they shopuld be reliable, but that is about it. Neither the management nor the union workforce really put the full effort that the Europeans or even the japanese do.
Americans can build very good cars, look what comes out of Honda and Toyota's non union plants in the US. But their management techniques are very different from union standard.
Companies such as JD Power make no effort to distinguish between something that effects reliability such as the tranny falling out and something that is a defect, such as a faulty cup holder. Even so, the gap between the best and the average is not that great.
Okay agree. However so many people use this distorted data as their final decision. J.D. is much better than CR.
Other companies like Consumer Reports have a very small sampling of most cars. More Camry's are sold than say Mercedes SL's, so one bad report on an SL has more effect than one bad report on a Camry.
Agree with ya once again. :surprise:
Also, the technological field isn't level. Companies that achieve technical breakthroughs often have to learn as they go. This means a simpler car will be perceived as more reliable than a more complex car.
Wow, I agree with ya again
I would never buy a new American car because I know how poorly engineered and put together they are. They are very simple vehicles technically speaking so they should be reliable, but that is about it.
The Caddy STS, has more technology than the current S80 ever dreamed about. OTOH the new S80 will give the STS a run for it's money and looks to be more advanced. BTW-Cadillac was ranked like 5th or 6th in reliability. Also how do you explain Lexus always finishing in the Top 3 ?
Neither the management nor the union work force really put the full effort that the Europeans or even the japanese do.
The UAW does put forth a very strong effort, but it's not their call if GM management decides build a Pontiac Aztek. :sick: The UAW, unlike the Europeans have mandatory OT and most Europeans work weeks consist of 35 hours, because they have enough morales to give employees time to spend with his/hers family.
Americans can build very good cars, look what comes out of Honda and Toyota's non union plants in the US.
Americans at those non-union Japanese plants have better machinery, materials, and most importantly the product is better engineered from the get go. The Japanese also have a 30% currency manipulation in their favor. They also built these modern plants with little money because of all the federal, local, state, tax breaks they get. OTOH, that doesn't excuse GM from puting out products such as the Aveo :sick:
But their management techniques are very different from union standard.
That depends on who you ask. However they do pay half-way decent and with fewer and fewer jobs left in this country, most folks tolerate the working conditions.
Last, but not least GM is currently in the best situation to turn it all around. Chrysler just lost $600 million, and Ford lost alot of money also. Volvo, for Ford, has been a success and hopefully that will continue.
Rocky
P.S. Remember Volvo has unionized labor in Sweden, which has strong connections with the UAW.
How do you know?
What does Caddy have that S80 does not?
It is a genuine curiosity...
How do you know?
What does Caddy have that S80 does not?
lev_berkovich,
Do a comparison of the two and get back to me and tell me I'm wrong. :P
I already did about a month or so ago.
Rocky
Do a comparison of the two and get back to me and tell me I'm wrong
OK, Ready?
Here we go (exists in S80 does not exist in Caddy):
- adaptive cruise control
- BLIS
- collision warning and brake support
- active Bi-xenon headlights
- whiplash protective seats
- inflatable curtains
And now tell me what does Caddy have that S80 does not?
On-Star? Although Volvo have Volvo on-call system.
The STS is the first prestige luxury sedan equipped with remote start — and the ability to activate preset commands from a distance. With Adaptive Remote Start you can start the engine and activate your preset commands from up to 200 feet away — that's over half the length of a football field. Let's say you're heading to your STS and you're about a block or two away. With just one click of your keyless fob you can start the engine. With certain packages you can also automatically start your heater or air conditioning, heat or cool your seats, and even start the window defrost... all from up to 200 feet away. As you approach the car, the doors unlock and you're ready for an instant departure in absolute comfort. close Air BagsDriver and front passenger, dual-stage, front and side-impact*
Dual-Stage Front airbags are standard for both driver and front-seat passenger and feature primary and secondary levels of deployment to help reduce the risk of air bag induced injury. Sensors detect crash impact and determine level of inflation. close Head curtain air bags for 1st- and outboard 2nd-row passengers**
Side-Impact head curtain and thorax airbags offer driver and passenger head, chest and shoulder protection. They are seat-mounted and roof-rail mounted and inflate quickly to compensate for short crush distance in a side impact. 5 close Audio and Video SystemsBose® 5.1 Studio Surround Sound AM/FM with in-dash 6-disc CD/DVD changer and 15 speakers, GPS-based DVD navigation, Bluetooth-enabled phone interface
With Bose Studio Surround, you—and your passengers—will feel like you're on stage in the middle of the music, only you'll be sitting inside the comfort zone of your STS. The STS is the first prestige luxury sedan to offer Bose Studio Surround — delivering an extraordinary concert-quality experience for both driver and passengers. The Discrete 5.1 Surround Sound is unlike stereo systems that deliver 2 channels of sound, the Bose Studio Surround sound system offers 5 individual channels plus 1 low-frequency channel for bass. The result is discrete 5.1 surround sound of exceptional clarity, range and depth. And with Bose CenterPoint signal processing, you can even listen to your stereo CDs in simulated (synthesized) surround sound. Custom designed for the STS, Bose Studio Surround features a total of 15 speakers, and uses advanced signal processing to deliver discrete 5.1 surround sound throughout the cabin. 5 sonic zones, or individual sweet spots, result from this unique system architecture. Front seat passengers enjoy 4 Bose Personal™ surround speakers, 2 mounted on either side of the headrests. The STS is the first vehicle to offer a discrete Studio Surround sound system with this feature. close DVD Entertainment/Navigation System: Plays CDs, MP3s and other formats; 6-disc CD/DVD changer; 8-inch full VGA display screen; utilizes separate DVD slot, available voice recognition and available Head-Up Display for easy viewing†
The available DVD entertainment system in STS can play many of today's most popular media formats including CDs and MP3s. Plus, the integrated CD/DVD changer can hold up to 6 discs of different formats. In fact, the system plays the widest variety of audio available on the market today. And it's integrated with the available Bose® Studio Surround™ sound system, so you can enjoy discrete 5.1 surround sound of exceptional clarity, range and depth. In fact, every disc you play, including your conventional stereo CDs, will deliver incredibly lifelike sound. Feel like watching a DVD movie or DVD-ROM? Just put your STS in park, sit back and enjoy. The high-resolution 8-inch VGA display screen delivers excellent color and clarity. The screen also tilts in four positions and features disc and track memory recall for two drivers. close XM Satellite Radio (service fees extra)††
With a wide variety of programming, XM has something to excite any driver. Whether you want to be entertained or informed, to laugh, think, or sing, XM has the perfect channel for you - coast-to-coast, and in digital-quality sound. 3 trial months - no obligation. close Climate Control System Dual-zone automatic electronic climate control with individual settings for driver and front passenger plus outboard outlets adjustable for additional side-window defogging and rear-window defroster Outside automatic recirculating air quality sensorConsole Includes floor shifter, integral armrest, storage compartment, 3 auxiliary power outlets and cupholdersCruise Control Electronic with set and resume speed, includes telltale in head-up displaySophisticated radar transceiver automatically adjusts speed to maintain preset following distance, includes telltale in head-up display#
With Adaptive Cruise Control, you'll enjoy more driving with a lot less brake tapping. That's because it not only maintains your preset speed, it also maintains your following distance. As an extra safety precaution, it even provides audio and visual warnings when another vehicle cuts you off suddenly. Adaptive Cruise Control is specially equipped with a radar sensor located behind the special Cadillac emblem that can detect the vehicles in front of you. Integrated with the STS on-board computer, it automatically maintains both your preset speed and following distance. If someone pulls in ahead of you, STS will slow down and fall back to your pre-set following distance. If another car cuts you off suddenly, the system will brake and provide audio and visual warnings that you may need to brake harder. When traffic clears, STS resumes your set speed. Meanwhile, details can be clearly shown on the available four-color Head-up Display, so you can keep your eyes firmly fixed on the road. close Driver Information Center Display in gauge cluster, vehicle status readout, 6 language capabilityHead-Up Display4-color reconfigurable Head-Up display projects data such as vehicle speed, navigation system turn prompts, driver shift control, audio settings and optional Adaptive Cruise Control status directly on windshield
The STS offers an unsurpassed Head-Up Display which projects digital data onto the windshield in front of you. You can choose from four colors to organize and emphasize data and even adjust the display position for comfortable viewing. close Interior Color Choices Cashmere## Ebony## Light Gray## Keyless Access Includes 2 remote transmitters enabling passive entry on both front doors and trunkPush-button start
The STS is the first prestige luxury sedan equipped with remote start — and the ability to activate preset commands from a distance. With Adaptive Remote Start you can start the engine and activate your preset commands from up to 200 feet away — that's over half the length of a football field. Let's say you're heading to your STS and you're about a block or two away. With just one click of your keyless fob you can star
With 40 memory presets for two drivers, the STS Memory Package includes presets for seat position, outside mirrors, tilt and telescopic steering wheel positions, radio, climate control and a host of other amenities. close Mirrors Electrochromic, automatic-dimming inside rearview mirror with compass and OnStar controls (n/a with DVD navigation)§ OnStar System OnStar Personal Calling: Hands-free calling§§ Cadillac Virtual Advisor: One year subscription for traffic, weather reports and stock quotes§§
This service, accessed by OnStar subscribers through the Hands-Free Calling feature, is complimentary for 12 months along with the standard one-year OnStar subscription included on all Cadillac models. You can connect with Cadillac Virtual Advisor to hear location-based weather and traffic reports. 2 close OnStar Directions & Connections Plan: One year subscription§§
One-year Directions & Connections Plan includes: safety services such as automatic notification of air bag deployment, remote door unlock, Stolen Vehicle Location Assistance, GM Goodwrench Remote Diagnostics; driving directions; Information & Convenience Services by which an OnStar Advisor can provide service recommendations and directory information; and OnStar Hands-free Calling, a built in feature of OnStar that lets you make and receive voice activated phone calls. (Prepaid calling charges apply.) 2 close Safety Belts Lap and shoulder belts for all positions and pretensioners for driver and front passengerSeating Driver and front passenger heated/ventilated Front bucket seats with Nuance leather seating surfaces and 8-way power adjustment, rear seat with leather seating surfaces Tuscany Leather SeatsSteering WheelLeather-trimmed, power-tilt, telescoping with fingertip controls for audio
Audio controls are located on-wheel buttons for easy audio system control. Depending on vehicle options, you can change source, station, CD, track, volume – even mute the sound. OnStar® and available Voice Recognition also controllable from steering wheel. Adaptive Cruise Control, included as an option with selected packages and helps controls the gap between your vehicle and the vehicle ahead and the interface is steering wheel based. The heated steering wheel is included as an option with selected packages. close Leather-wrapped and heated Leather-wrapped, heated with wood accentsTheft-Deterrent System PASS-Key III immobilizer with audible content theft-deterrent systemTire Pressure Monitor SystemSensors in all 4 wheels, low- and high-pressure warning in Driver Information Center
Know your tire pressure from inside the STS: This available system helps you know when you need to increase or decrease your tire pressure. With sensors located in all 4 wheels, it displays low and high pressure alerts displayed in Driver Information Center. 19 close Trunk Power releaseWindows Power, includes express-up and down, all; rear passenger lockoutWood Trim Eucalyptus wood on steering wheel, shifter knob, center stack and console, instrument panel molding and door pulls.
Cruise ControlSophisticated radar transceiver automatically adjusts speed to maintain preset following distance, includes telltale in head-up display*
With Adaptive Cruise Control, you'll enjoy more driving with a lot less brake tapping. That's because it not only maintains your preset speed, it also maintains your following distance. As an extra safety precaution, it even provides audio and visual warnings when another vehicle cuts you off suddenly. Adaptive Cruise Control is specially equipped with a radar sensor located behind the special Cadillac emblem that can detect the vehicles in front of you. Integrated with the STS on-board computer, it automatically maintains both your preset speed and following distance. If someone pulls in ahead of you, STS will slow down and fall back to your pre-set following distance. If another car cuts you off suddenly, the system will brake and provide audio and visual warnings that you may need to brake harder. When traffic clears, STS resumes your set speed. Meanwhile, details can be clearly shown on the available four-color Head-up Display, so you can keep your eyes firmly fixed on the road. close Head-Up Display4-color reconfigurable Head-Up display projects data such as vehicle speed, navigation system turn prompts, driver shift control, audio settings and optional Adaptive Cruise Control status directly on windshield.
Imagine you're out driving at night with your high beams on. When IntelliBeam detects the oncoming headlamps or preceding taillamps of other vehicles, your lights step down to low beams — automatically. When traffic clears, the system turns your high beams back on — automatically. It can even ignore light from other sources such as streetlights to prevent unnecessary dimming. This type of "smart" technology activates your high and low beams precisely when you need them, so you can concentrate on driving. 12 close Mirrors Outside heated rearview, manual folding, power adjustableSpoiler Rear deck-lidSunroof Sunroof with express-open/close and express-ventUltrasonic Rear Parking Assist Rearview LED light with audible warningWheels & Tires 9-spoke 18-in. cast aluminum wheels with polished faceted finish; Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 P235/50-WR18 front, P255/45-WR18 rear, all-season performance tires 9-spoke 18-in. cast aluminum wheels with polished finish, non-faceted; Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 P235/50-ZR18 front, P255/45-ZR18 rear, all-season performance tires† Windshield Wipers Rainsense automatic wipers with moisture detection.
Exterior Color Choices White Diamond InfraredHandling Package Michelin Pilot Sport high-performance radial tires: P255/45-ZR18 and optional performance brake linings* Wheels & Tires 9-spoke 18-in. cast aluminum wheels with polished finish, non-faceted; Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 P235/50-ZR18 front, P255/45-ZR18 rear, all-season performance tires**
Both STS engines share several features that enable powerful, efficient, and reliable operation. They have a double overhead cam design with Variable Valve Timing for continuous power output and a strong, lightweight aluminum engine block and cylinder head structure that withstands the demands of performance driving. Forged steel crankshafts and polymer-coated piston skirts add extra durability. Both feature electronic throttle control for quick response and an acoustic cover for quiet operation even during high-speed maneuvers. With a total of 32 perfectly synchronized valves and a powerful compression ratio, the 4.6L Northstar V8 VVT goes from 0 to 60 mph in just 5.9 seconds. Maximum output is 320 horsepower and 315 lb-ft of torque. close Engine block heaterTransmission5-speed automatic transmission with Performance Algorithm Liftfoot and Driver Shift Control (clutchless manual operation)
Engine Engine block heater
okay I will !!!! :P
All-Speed Traction Control Brake and engine controlBrakes4-wheel disc brakes with anti-lock braking system
The braking system in STS gives you the confidence of knowing you'll be able to stop quickly. It features four-wheel disc brakes integrated with four-wheel anti-lock braking and traction control. The disc brake rotors on all four wheels are vented to prevent overheating and distorting. If you need to hit the brakes hard, Brake Assist optimizes operation individually on all four wheels to bring you to a full stop in the shortest distance and time that the available traction control will allow. This extra level of confidence comes standard on every STS. close Drive SystemRear-wheel drive
Rear-Wheel Drive comes standard on the STS V6 and V8 models. With performance-oriented drive ratios and an available limited slip differential, your STS will handle like a pro. 17 close DrivetrainAll-wheel drive
STS is available with performance-tuned All-Wheel Drive so you get impressive power evenly distributed to all four wheels. Integrated with StabiliTrak and All-Wheel Traction Control, it helps deliver precise cornering in dry and wet road conditions. With a 40/60 front-rear torque split and a 3.23.1 final drive ratio, expect a superb performance. close Limited-slip differential* Magnetic Ride ControlComputer-controlled suspension system with adjustable computer-controlled shock absorbers
Reading the road up to 1,000 times a second, the world's fastest-reacting suspension system, resolves the inherent conflict between taut handling and a fluid ride. Thanks to a duo of advanced electronics and inventive magneto-rheological fluid-based struts, MRC reads every inch of the road at 60 mph to adjust shock-absorber damping. close StabiliTrak Computer-controlled, 4-channel stability enhancement system* Steering Power-assisted speed-sensitive rack-and-pinionPremium ZF Servotronic II performance gearing and variable-ratio electronic control
Born on the Formula 1 race circuit. Tuned to STS specifications on Germany's famed Nürburgring racecourse. The ZF Servotronic II steering system is widely regarded for its precision and high-speed cornering. All of which gives STS an incredibly sensitive feel for the road. close Suspension Sport-tuned 4-wheel independent design that utilizes a short/long arm, coil over strut with anti-sway bar in the front, and a modified multi-link with anti-sway bar and automatic rear level control system in the rear; both benefit from monotube performance shock absorbers
The 2007' model will fair much better and I really like it alot. The 07' S80 IMHO has the best interior of any car under $100K. Most people I know who are interested in Volvo's say the seats are the most comfy in the world.
Rocky
P.S. Sorry I rubbed it in a bit, but I couldn't resist the oppertunity. :P You'd do the same. You wanted me to choose sides which frusterated me, and I had to pay ya back.
I don't completely blame the UAW for the woes of the American car maker. They aren't entirely responsible, but they do have to shoulder there share of the blame.
Also, the UAw has been loathe to shoulder its share of the recovery.
Simply because they would have to sacrifice benefits in order to improve the whole.
As for assertion that the non union plants have access to better equipment, that is simply untrue. Ford and GM do ahve access to world class machinery. Their workforce just isn't world class. The non union workforce at Honda, Toyota etc is better motivated.
As for the Caddy, since it is a brand new design it had better be more advanced than the current S80. Some of your examples were spam however.
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Ummm, based on productivity, GM is barely "1" car behind honda. I think that includes the Job bank workers.
But back on topic the S80, should be much ahead of anything Cadillac, makes. But will it ? We will have to wait and see for sure. The S80, is a beaut. I'm not dogging the 2007' S80. It will be a very respectable car. However will it's price reflect the product. In some eyes it already has. I'm going to have to read a review to make my final determination. Who really know what the final price on a 07' S80 V-8 will be yet. Maybe it will stop at $50K ? That IMHO would make it a good deal.
Rocky
Rocky