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2007 Volvo S80

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Everybody has slipped. So many people are leasing that it is driving down residuals. Too many cars coming back.
    Also, resale value has nothing to do w/ lease residuals.
    Honda's typically have the best resale value, but average lease residuals.


    Well that is quite the opposite of what my sales manager and friend in Michigan has told me. Ryan, said that estimated resale directly affects what the residuals will be
    on a particualr vehicle. BMW had the best residuals of any brand in 2005'.

    My former 2005' Acura TL had a strong residual also at the time, but not a high as BMW's. I almost baught the Bimmer, because of this but got a good deal on the TL, which was FWD and I needed FWD or AWD at that time. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Motor Trend, is reporting the base S80 to be $38,500-$40,800. Do you really think the S80 V-8 will be $10-15K higher ? :surprise: The Lincoln MKS (concept)is built on the S80 platform and uses the same Yamaha V-8.

    I wonder if this vehicle once it reaches production will be built in Sweden ? The MKS, is almost as attractive as the S80. I wonder if the price will be cheaper than the S80 ? It also has a 500 watt DVD-Audio THX II Certified audio system with 14 speakers. :surprise: This could be the greatest factory unit in the world. :surprise:

    Man another choice for ol' Rocky. :blush:

    Rocky
  • MKS is built on "old" 1999-2006 S80 platform (P2). It is already used in Ford 500 and Freestyle, Mercury Montego, etc.
    The current 2007-... S80 is built on a new EUCD (medium-large) platform shared between Ford, Volvo and, potentially, Jaguar.

    So, MKS and a new S80 are two very different cars.

    P2 cars will not be built in Sweden. The former P2 platform becomes an American one, while EUCD - is a new European medium-large sedan one for the Ford family.

    Ford does not like to build the same platform in metric and American standard environments, duplicating the part bins. That is one of the reasons why we most likely will not see European Focus here in US.

    MKS has great genes, but it looks like... well, Lincoln...

    May be when I am 70, I might consider it.

    Price wise, yes, same as XC90.

    The difference between base FWD 2.5T and V8 AWD is $11K - 36K vs. 47K.

    So, if rock-bottom S80 is 40K, the V8 AWD(although with more gadgets) will easily reach mid-50th.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EUCD_platform

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_MKS
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    lev_berkovich,

    Thanx for the reply pal. If the S80 V-8 does reach into the mid $50's loaded, then that will be well out of what I want to spend, and will be ashame since I was kinda pondering getting one. That would leave me a choice of a BMW 335i sedan and possibly a Acura TL Type-S. I was willing to pay up to $47K for a S-80 V-8 loaded. Oh well the 335i and TL Type-S are both good choices and values, thus I won't be ashamed to own either. ;)

    Rocky
  • It is interesting that you compare cars strictly by their price. 335 and S80 for me are on two different sides of the car spectrum.
    S80 competes with 530/545 and even with V8 will be less expensive than either of them (feature for a feature).

    I am pretty sure, also, that with MSRP of 50+K, there will be, eventually, 47K deals available.

    However, I, personally, am looking forward to replace my 2.9 with new 3.2 I6 in 2008.

    Six cyl. will be plenty for my driving style, and I expect OSD prices for it to be around 35K (38-39K domestically).
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I don't think the S80 offers that much to command such a premium. I buy based on premium value and a Acura RL offers more value per dollar than the S80. I also am pretty flexible on size, and the BMW 3 series isn't as small as some make it out to be. So yeah I'd like to own a S80, but if the price doesn't reflect the product, I will choose a alternative.

    Rocky
  • You say that because you do not drive S80. If you would, you'll see that S80 offers the best value in the premium market. I bought S80 in 2000 because I bought the most of premium European sedan for the $ I have paid.

    RL is much more expensive, but yet, does not have the same presence as S80 IMHO.

    And I still do not understand how you can cross shop 3 series and S80.
    The BMW 3 is a small sport sedan, the S80 is rather large luxury cruiser.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    First of all the RL only comes w/ a V6, not a V8.

    Second, Acura is decontenting the RL because they can't give them away.

    As for the 3 series vs S80, it is silly to compare cars in 2 totally different classes and say that one is better than another. Cars can only be compared in the same class.
    The 3 series will be cheaper than the S80 V8, and it should be. Compare a 550i to the S80 V8 and see which one is a better value.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    You say that because you do not drive S80. If you would, you'll see that S80 offers the best value in the premium market. I bought S80 in 2000 because I bought the most of premium European sedan for the $ I have paid.

    The last S80, "no offense" was already old and tired when it was introduced. It was under powered and had it's fair share of electrical problems something I still fear about the next S80. The new 2007' S80, I agree might be a good value and has decent acceleration for being a large sedan. It being roomy and arguably the safest car in the world is why I'm so interested in it. The interior design IMHO is also the best of any car under $100K. The exterior is very strong and manly and is far from being what some people call a "chick car" ;) However, if the V-8 sticker is $15K over the I-6, then it's not a good value. $10-15K for
    a V-8, isn't close to a bargain IMHO. I think most folks would agree with me. ;)

    RL is much more expensive, but yet, does not have the same presence as S80 IMHO.

    A loaded up Acura RL is $49K and can be baught for much less than that. I agree it might not have the presence of the S80, but it's more reliable, has more gadgets, also has the most advanced AWD system on the market (SH-AWD) and get's better gas mileage. Last but not least is much cheaper than a fully loaded S80, especially if your
    mid-50's MSRP S80 V-8 figure is correct. ;)

    And I still do not understand how you can cross shop 3 series and S80.

    Yes the two vehicles are much different. The BMW 335i for instances offers benchmark performance and handeling with a decent amount of gadgets and German engineering. The S80 offers benchmark safety, Scandinavian design, and quality, along with a superb fit and finish. The new 2007' S80 V-8 could be pretty expensive but yes when compared to BMW 545 or Mercedes E-Class it looks like a bargain in most eyes. However the Acura RL, like I said is $6K cheaper on MSRP and can be purchased at or below invoice knocking off atleast $3-4K more off. ;)

    The BMW 3 is a small sport sedan, the S80 is rather large luxury cruiser.

    Okay fair enough. I know that comparo might seem weird, but like I said I'm pretty flexible and my 2 kids will fit in either one. Yes I personally would rather drive a S80, but the mid $50's MSRP would be much more than what I personally want to spend.

    Take care pal.-Rocky
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Rocky,
    The original S80 was the most advanced car on the planet when it was introduced in 1998. it's 18 on board computers and fiber optic information system were a generation ahead of the Germans, The S80 T6 could do 0-60 in 6.5 sec and reach a top speed of 155 MPH. Only the most expensive cars from Mercedes or BMW could top it.

    As for the RL, there are reasons why there are deals on it.
    Why a car as new as the RL is being given away should set off some alarm bells in the savvy consumer.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    First of all the RL only comes w/ a V6, not a V8.

    That isn't a big deal to me like it is to others. ;) The RL has plenty of power for my needs and with $3-4 gas, I don't mind the V-6 which gets better MPG and offers similar level of performance and with SH-AWD it out handles the S80.

    Second, Acura is decontenting the RL because they can't give them away.

    Actually that rumor is only somewhat true. The 2007' RL has actually recieved a few upgrades in "Gadgetology". The following has been added MP3 jack, an optional rear park assist, the so-called "base" model is a non-nav system car.
    The new standard technology packages gets nav, the rear view cam, Active Front Lighting, wood interior accents, while the stage II upgrade adds the Collision Mitigation Braking System, and PAX run-flat tires.

    The botton line is the Acura RL gets High-Tech Goodies In A Low-Profile Package. The Standard RL still offers serious luxury and brilliant Super Handeling All-Wheel Drive system, but now opens under $50K.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Rocky,
    The original S80 was the most advanced car on the planet when it was introduced in 1998.


    "No offense" Volvomax, how in the heck can you say that is beyond me ? :confuse:
    The 1998' Cadillac Seville STS was as, if not more advanced then the S80 even way back then. Mercedes and BMW, I would say would have something to say about that also. ;)

    it's 18 on board computers and fiber optic information system were a generation ahead of the Germans

    What did those 18 on board computers do that made it so advanced ? Based on my current knowledge the Volvo wasn't any more advanced that MB and BMW. I guess you explaining those on-board computers and there function will broaden my knowledge. :)

    The S80 T6 could do 0-60 in 6.5 sec and reach a top speed of 155 MPH. Only the most expensive cars from Mercedes or BMW could top it.

    Ummmm, I'm calling B.S. on this one pal.

    The Lexus LS, GS, the other Swede- Saab 9-5, Infiniti Q45, even the Cadillac Seville STS could easily go from rest to 60 in 6.4 and was *elect-limited to 155 mph :P my 2002 was the same as the 98' and I accomplished the top end task. And Of course Mercedes and BMW, along with Audi, Jaguar, etc, could also easily complete this task. :blush:

    As for the RL, there are reasons why there are deals on it.

    Americans prefer V-8's in the premium class. I think if Acura would of turbo-charged the V-6 to 300 and somethin hp. it might of added some clout to the RL. The mininum hp. in the premium class is atleast 300, and the RL falls short at 290 hp. even though it still delivers decent performance. ;)

    Why a car as new as the RL is being given away should set off some alarm bells in the savvy consumer.

    However for that Savy consumer like myself, one can buy a RL thousands cheaper than a S80. The S80 will perhaps be a pay sticker, or forget it type of car. If the lease rates are good I might be willing to lease one. ;)

    Rocky
  • OK, Rocky,
    You one of those who can never stop fighting, even if you switch sides many times over.

    If 6 cyl. is fine - then 3.2 I6 S80 is going to be a really great deal in a premium market - German or Japanese.

    If V8 is a must - then RL is a one hugely overpriced Honda, no matter how many MP3 jacks it has.

    So, pick your side and stick to it...

    What is your point? 50K is too much for AWD V8 S80?

    Fine, go and buy less expensive one.

    Speaking techno advances of 1998 S80 - here is just a few examples

    DSTC - the best traction and stability control system in the world - was more advanced than ANY similar systems in 1998.

    traverse I6 - provides best interior space in class while keep very modest exterior dimensions.

    Dolby ProLogic II sound system - best in the world in 1998 and second ONLY to Mark Levinson. system of Lexus 400 that is mega$$$ more expensive a few years later.

    Computer controlled Inflatable Curtains - completely unique in 1998.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Rocky,

    The caddy was no more advanced than any other car of the day.
    All of Volvo's electrical functions were tied together over a computer network. The car could literally be reprogrammed just like a pc. Prior to the S80, car onboard computers were only tasked to monitor engine demands. By switching to the fiber optic system multiple commands could be sent down the same lines to the S80's various systems. This allowed an overall reduction of the wiring harness by 50%.

    As for you calling BS, please do some research before you answer.
    The 99 Lexus LS400 reached 60 mph in 7.1 sec
    The 99 Cadillac STS reached 60mph in 6.8 sec.
    The 99 Infiniti Q45T reached 60 mph in 7.1 sec.
    The 99 Saab 9-5 SE reached 60 mph in 7.5 sec.

    So you see, the T6 was the equal or better of other cars in its class, even cars above its class.

    As for the Acura, savvy consumers aren't buying the RL. Price shoppers are. At least some of them.
    There are basically 2 types of buyers, those who buy what they really want to drive and are mindful of the cost of doing so, and those who hunt for deals and will drive anything.
    Obviously, we all have budgets that we have to live within and we should strive to do the best given our budget constraints.
    There are very vaild reasons why different cars cost what they cost.
    I would love to drive a new BMW M5, but I'm not going to spend $90,000 to do so. However, I won't poo-pooh the M5 and say that the Infiniti M45 is a better car simply because it is cheaper.
    Clearly, Acura erred seriously in not having a V8 option for that car.
    According to Edmunds, the TMV of a new RL w/ Nav and Tech pkg is $47,895. Which is more than the prospective S80 3.2 and less than the S80 V8.
    The standard RL comes in at a TMV price of $44,000.
    Much closer to the S80 3.2
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Volvomax, sorry about the delay pal, I'm back. :blush:

    The caddy was no more advanced than any other car of the day.

    That's what I was trying to say to you about the Volvo S80 3.2, it wasn't anymore advanced than a Seville STS. If anything the STS was more advanced because of all the features the S80 didn't have

    All of Volvo's electrical functions were tied together over a computer network. The car could literally be re programmed just like a pc. Prior to the S80, car on board computers were only tasked to monitor engine demands. By switching to the fiber optic system multiple commands could be sent down the same lines to the S80's various systems. This allowed an overall reduction of the wiring harness by 50%.

    Well according to the biased CR mag it got a poor rating on electrical problems like alot of European/Scandinavian vehicles. :( However I must admit Volvo is much better than Saab. ;)

    As for you calling BS, please do some research before you answer.
    The 99 Lexus LS400 reached 60 mph in 7.1 sec
    The 99 Cadillac STS reached 60mph in 6.8 sec.
    The 99 Infiniti Q45T reached 60 mph in 7.1 sec.
    The 99 Saab 9-5 SE reached 60 mph in 7.5 sec.


    I have done some research and have read lots of 0-60 test over the years in Car Mags such as Motor Trend, Road & Track, Car and Driver, Automobile, etc etc etc.

    I also found this site when somebody was arguing with me on the factory performance of my former Acura TL.

    http://www.albeedigital.com/super coupe/articles/0-60times.html

    So you see, the T6 was the equal or better of other cars in its class, even cars above its class.

    Hey I'm not dogging the T6 engine. I think it still would be a good choice if they would of bumped the power in it. I personally would rather Volvo use S60R's Turbo 5 and add another turbo to get the desired or above average performance. ;)

    As for the Acura, savvy consumers aren't buying the RL. Price shoppers are. At least some of them.

    I'm a bit suprised the RL hasn't sold better. It needs a shot of steroids in the engine dept.

    There are basically 2 types of buyers, those who buy what they really want to drive and are mindful of the cost of doing so, and those who hunt for deals and will drive anything.

    What's wrong with doing a combination of both ? ;)

    Obviously, we all have budgets that we have to live within and we should strive to do the best given our budget constraints.

    Well not all have budget contraints,
    look at Jay Leno :P

    There are very vaild reasons why different cars cost what they cost.

    Ummmm, I strongly disagree with you. 2-examples are Mercedes, and Lexus's, cost way more than they should. ;)

    I would love to drive a new BMW M5, but I'm not going to spend $90,000 to do so. However, I won't poo-pooh the M5 and say that the Infiniti M45 is a better car simply because it is cheaper.

    The BMW M5 is a pretty nice car, but that doesn't mean it's worth $90K in my eyes. It's for the Rich Yuppie in his mid-life crisis IMHO. :P OTOH The Infiniti M45 driver has alot more "gadgets" than the M5 driver to occupy his time when he isn't going Mach-1 and not to mention the Q45 is more reliable on top of having a cheaper price. ;)

    Clearly, Acura erred seriously in not having a V8 option for that car.

    I agree, but if Acura wanted to keep the 3.5 V-6, don't you think a couple of Turbo's would of given it atleast a little street cred ? I personally think a couple of turbo's with 350-450 hp. might of made it a hot seller. They could of raised the price $5K and it still would of been a steal. I also think a 6-speed manuel would of helped also to go along with the SH-AWD. :shades:

    According to Edmunds, the TMV of a new RL w/ Nav and Tech pkg is $47,895. Which is more than the prospective S80 3.2 and less than the S80 V8.

    It's basically IMHO a better deal than both. Look at all the technology you get for your dollar. ;)

    The standard RL comes in at a TMV price of $44,000.
    Much closer to the S80 3.2


    I guess it's a matter of choice. I've never baughten base models, and ya know what ???? I never will. :D

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    OK, Rocky,
    You one of those who can never stop fighting, even if you switch sides many times over.


    Switch sides :confuse: I also wouldn't call us fighting, but having a healthy debate on the S80 and is it worth it or not ? Also in a fight/argument, your messing with the wrong guy. :P J/K :P

    If 6 cyl. is fine - then 3.2 I6 S80 is going to be a really great deal in a premium market - German or Japanese.

    Not to me, but maybe to others such as you ? I don't care so much about the size or displacement of the engine, as much as I care about the performance, reliability, fuel economy, of the engine.

    If V8 is a must - then RL is a one hugely overpriced Honda, no matter how many MP3 jacks it has.

    Like I said the V-8 option isn't a must for me. The biggest problem with the V-6 VTEC it is under-powered when compared to the others. :( Nothing a chip/programmer can't fix. :shades:

    So, pick your side and stick to it...

    We can't have a little debate over "X car vs. S80". I like I said like the S80 alot, but I'm not sure if the product reflect the price. Alot of my family works for GM/Delphi, and with my GM discount I can't afford a AWD Caddy STS V-8.
    Dad retired from GM yesterday. Want to talk about over priced ? The Caddy STS V-8 AWD is $66K. The loaded up STS
    V-8 RWD $63K. The STS-V is $79K :surprise:

    What is your point? 50K is too much for AWD V8 S80?

    $50K isn't to much, but $55-60K would be. ;)

    Fine, go and buy less expensive one.

    I might have to. :sick:

    Speaking techno advances of 1998 S80 - here is just a few examples

    DSTC - the best traction and stability control system in the world - was more advanced than ANY similar systems in 1998.


    I never heard that. I'll take your word on that one. :)

    traverse I6 - provides best interior space in class while keep very modest exterior dimensions.

    Okay interesting.;)

    Dolby Pro Logic II sound system - best in the world in 1998 and second ONLY to Mark Levinson. :surprise: Ummmm in 98' the Bose 4.0 425 watt w/ a 12-inch sub might have something to say about that. Yes the Mark Levinson, could be argued as the best. Was the Levinson, unit back then
    DVD-Audio :confuse: Now the Levinson unit has alot of competition. Some claim other are better. Even the Dynaudio in Volvo's and VW's are getting jocked.

    system of Lexus 400 that is mega$$$ more expensive a few years later.

    Yes they are expensive, and doubt it anymore the product doesn't reflect it's price. Some are saying the Acura RDX 450-Watt ELS system is the best now out of the factory units.

    Computer controlled Inflatable Curtains - completely unique in 1998.

    Was Volvo, the only one with em' I thought Saab had em' also, maybe I'm wrong.

    We can't be concerned so much about yesterday, as we should be about the future. The bottom line is most Volvo's are under-powered except for the current S60R and new 07' S80. :D

    Rocky
  • Anyway, Rocky,
    What do you drive today?
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I drive a 98' Mustang V-6, and do own a 96' Dodge Ram Flat bed. I won a $55K law suit over my 05' Acura TL being repoed. I've been "4-letter word" around for the past year+ and they finally had to pay for it. It wasn't Acura's fault but the dealership and the finance company that screwed me had to finally pay up. The Mustang was my wifes H.S. graduation present from her dad and is now a work car for me. The Dodge 3/4 ton was what I used to help my FIL on the farm before they got divorce. She got my wifes house and 473 acres in the divorce which was part of my wife and myself's inheritance. We had to move and I will be selling my Truck as soon as my grandma can deliver the 02' Aurora I plan on buying for cash.

    I love Acura's products, but Honda Finacial didn't take care of me like their reputation. This is why I'm considering a Volvo. I would like to buy GM+ use my employee discount I get from dad, but when your own father tells you not to buy GM' because of Delphi parts made buy the untrained new people, that's enough to scare you. Dad told me he'd be okay with me buying a Volvo because they are Union Made and their labor pool is part of the UAW.
    I am a DOE union worker and prefer to buy union made vehicles, even if it's supporting union jobs over in Sweden. I having Scandinavian blood (Norway, Denmark, and a little Swede, don't mine supporting my race. I atleast feel comfortable those workers are making a good wage with benefits to take care of his/hers family. ;)

    Rocky
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Rocky,
    You have to learn to separate toys from real advances im technology.
    Any advance in the thechnology of the automobile doesn't come without a certain amount of difficulties.
    Volvo just went through them sooner.
    BMW and Mercedes went through the same thing when they switched systems. So did Lexus, now Toyota is having the same problems w/ the new Camry and the Avalon.

    I am not even going to get into a discussion of the relative merits of the M5 over the Infinti's. Your statements lend me an insight into your thinking and it would be pointless to debate it.
    The technology of the M5 and what it can do is amazing. Regardless of who you claim buys it.
    There are real tangible reasons why Mercedes, BMW's and Lexus' cost what they do. If you haven't had the opportunity to spend any real time in those cars I wholeheatedly urge you to do so. You may be very suprised at what you learn.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    There are real tangible reasons why Mercedes, BMW's and Lexus' cost what they do. If you haven't had the opportunity to spend any real time in those cars I wholeheatedly urge you to do so. You may be very suprised at what you learn.

    I have never had the oppertunity to spend any real significant time in the past in those cars since my family works for GM, and up until recently I've haven't considered other makes/models. Our dealerships down here are very reluctant to hand over the keys for one to get to know those models. The MB and Volvo dealerships are about
    2-1/2 hours away and to spend just a nite with one isn't worth my time.
    However the BMW dealership is only 45 minutes away and yes I might spend a nite with a 335i sedan when they become available.

    If I make it down to Lubbock I will take a S80 for a test drive (depends on MSRP of S80 V-8)

    Rocky
  • I do not want to repeat what was already said in the Volvomax' response, but just want to let you know that when in late 1999 I was looking for the large upscale family sedan, I have driven pretty much each and every vehicle that fits this description in 30 to 40K range - Acura TL, Infinity I30, Cadillac STC, Audi A6 3.2, BMW 525, M-B E320, Saab 9-5 Linear, Lincoln LS V6, Lexus ES300, Toyota Avalon XLS, Volvo S70, Volvo S80 - just to name a few, and Volvo S80 has won hands down as an overall package, having the best combination of value, style, technology, status, handling and driving comfort + rather unique, but extremely attractive opportunity for the Overseas Delivery, when you can take a delivery in Europe and use your own car to travel.
    I have very strong opinion that at the moment S80 had the best overall value among premium "near-luxury" segment.
    I still believe that new S80 presents great value too, and I am planning to get one through OSD in 2008.

    Although, I would not mind for it to grow in every dimension, because most of competitors are bigger now than they were in 1999, but S80 is still of very formidable size and has plenty of interior room.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    You really should if you can.
    I was once like you, I was only exposed to domestic cars and thought very highly of them.
    But, being in the business has allowed me to learn alot.
    Once you get exposed to the engineering of European cars you see how seriously the Europeans take thier work and how different they are from the domestic or japanese brands.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    lev_berkovich,

    Like I said I agree with you that both are very nice rides. I will have to weigh my options very seriously. The biggest obstacle for me will be getting a Volvo serviced if I decide to go Volvo route. 2-1/2-3 hours travel time for maintence is a heck of a drive and sacrifice.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    You really should if you can.
    I was once like you, I was only exposed to domestic cars and thought very highly of them.


    I still do think very highly of certain domestic made cars. They also are getting better and do rank higher on reliabilty than the Euro's and Scandinavian built cars. I do believe Volvo like MB, BMW, Audi, etc are better built and engineered. Some americans try to blame it all on the UAW, but the Scandinavians and most European have unions as their workforce. The diference between the party's is the Euro-navians have pride, starting from the top all the way down to the lowest grunt. They believe in buying the best materials to make there cars. ;)

    But, being in the business has allowed me to learn alot.
    Once you get exposed to the engineering of European cars you see how seriously the Europeans take thier work and how different they are from the domestic or japanese brands.


    I agree with you pal, however their are those who would strongly disagree with us saying that Euro cars are unreliable, over-priced, liberal-socialist, yuppie, mobiles. ;) I guess I fit most of those category's and should drive Volvo's. :D :P.

    Even my now retired dad, said he could handle me driving a Volvo, because they are union made, and the workers are connected to the UAW. Dad fears many GM cars eventually will be imported from China. He says it's going to start with parts, and then proceed to finshed products. :cry:

    Rocky
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    Reliability rankings are the most overused and least understood stats in the car business.
    Comapnies such as JD Power make no effort to distinguish between something that effects reliability such as the tranny falling out and something that is a defect, such as a faulty cup holder. Even so, the gap between the best and the average is not that great.
    Other companies like Consumer Reports have a very small sampling of most cars. More Camry's are sold than say Mercedes SL's, so one bad report on an SL has more effect than one bad report on a Camry.
    Also, the technological field isn't level. Companies that achieve technical breakthroughs often have to learn as they go. This means a simpler car will be percieved as more reliable than a more complex car.
    I would never buy a new American car because I know how poorly engineered and put together they are. They are very simple vehicles technically speaking so they shopuld be reliable, but that is about it. Neither the management nor the union workforce really put the full effort that the Europeans or even the japanese do.
    Americans can build very good cars, look what comes out of Honda and Toyota's non union plants in the US. But their management techniques are very different from union standard.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Reliability rankings are the most over used and least understood stats in the car business.
    Companies such as JD Power make no effort to distinguish between something that effects reliability such as the tranny falling out and something that is a defect, such as a faulty cup holder. Even so, the gap between the best and the average is not that great.


    Okay agree. However so many people use this distorted data as their final decision. J.D. is much better than CR.

    Other companies like Consumer Reports have a very small sampling of most cars. More Camry's are sold than say Mercedes SL's, so one bad report on an SL has more effect than one bad report on a Camry.

    Agree with ya once again. :surprise:

    Also, the technological field isn't level. Companies that achieve technical breakthroughs often have to learn as they go. This means a simpler car will be perceived as more reliable than a more complex car.

    Wow, I agree with ya again ;)

    I would never buy a new American car because I know how poorly engineered and put together they are. They are very simple vehicles technically speaking so they should be reliable, but that is about it.

    The Caddy STS, has more technology than the current S80 ever dreamed about. OTOH the new S80 will give the STS a run for it's money and looks to be more advanced. BTW-Cadillac was ranked like 5th or 6th in reliability. Also how do you explain Lexus always finishing in the Top 3 ?

    Neither the management nor the union work force really put the full effort that the Europeans or even the japanese do.

    The UAW does put forth a very strong effort, but it's not their call if GM management decides build a Pontiac Aztek. :sick: The UAW, unlike the Europeans have mandatory OT and most Europeans work weeks consist of 35 hours, because they have enough morales to give employees time to spend with his/hers family. ;)

    Americans can build very good cars, look what comes out of Honda and Toyota's non union plants in the US.

    Americans at those non-union Japanese plants have better machinery, materials, and most importantly the product is better engineered from the get go. The Japanese also have a 30% currency manipulation in their favor. They also built these modern plants with little money because of all the federal, local, state, tax breaks they get. OTOH, that doesn't excuse GM from puting out products such as the Aveo :sick:

    But their management techniques are very different from union standard.

    That depends on who you ask. However they do pay half-way decent and with fewer and fewer jobs left in this country, most folks tolerate the working conditions.

    Last, but not least GM is currently in the best situation to turn it all around. Chrysler just lost $600 million, and Ford lost alot of money also. Volvo, for Ford, has been a success and hopefully that will continue. ;)

    Rocky

    P.S. Remember Volvo has unionized labor in Sweden, which has strong connections with the UAW. ;)
  • The Caddy STS, has more technology than the current S80 ever dreamed about.

    How do you know?
    What does Caddy have that S80 does not?

    It is a genuine curiosity...
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    The Caddy STS, has more technology than the current S80 ever dreamed about.

    How do you know?
    What does Caddy have that S80 does not?



    lev_berkovich,

    Do a comparison of the two and get back to me and tell me I'm wrong. :P

    I already did about a month or so ago. ;) The New 07' S80 has recieved a significant number of new features, and gets much closer to the STS.

    Rocky
  • lev_berkovich,

    Do a comparison of the two and get back to me and tell me I'm wrong

    OK, Ready?

    Here we go (exists in S80 does not exist in Caddy):

    - adaptive cruise control
    - BLIS
    - collision warning and brake support
    - active Bi-xenon headlights
    - whiplash protective seats
    - inflatable curtains

    And now tell me what does Caddy have that S80 does not?

    On-Star? Although Volvo have Volvo on-call system.
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