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Lincoln MKS

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Sounds good !!!! :shades:

    -Rocky
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's not that they didn't want a new RWD platform - but under the old regime they couldn't get the funding necessary to do it. So they made do with the only viable full size platform that was available and went with AWD as a differentiator.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    What you've said here, that Mercury exists only to give Lincoln dealers volume sales, is 180 out from what Mark Fields recently said which is that Lincoln is now the volume brand at the LM dealers.

    Merury has NO reason to exist. For a great article expressing this opinion, go here: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/ford-death-watch-40-mercury-rip/

    One of the more interesting points made in there is that every time Mercury had a product well-differentiated from Ford and Lincoln, the mother company ignored it to death. This is EXACTLY what they did to the LS.

    Past is prologue with Ford. Mercury, unfortunately, probalbly wont see 2010. As a LONG time fan, I will miss it, but in the condition it's in now, let's just put it out of it's misery. Anyone for a Lincon-Mazda dealership?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What you've said here, that Mercury exists only to give Lincoln dealers volume sales, is 180 out from what Mark Fields recently said which is that Lincoln is now the volume brand at the LM dealers.

    Wrong. I was talking about the present and Fields is talking about the future. Lincoln needs the MKS and MKT (Lincoln version of the Flex) before it will have enough volume to dump Mercury. Right now, today, they still need the Mercury vehicles.

    They're also working to combine the Ford and Lincoln/Mercury dealers and if that happens the Mercury won't be needed for volume and can either be ditched or (my preference) given unique, niche vehicles like a roadster, convertibles, Cougar, etc.

    As for thetruthaboutcars - they're idiots.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    bruce, is this you?:

    "Jim Farley, Ford’s new head of marketing, says MKS customers want dynamic steering, feel, and braking but are not necessarily performance seekers."


    Uhh......NO, it is not. Farley needs to take his Toyota hat off. This sounds like an excuse for introducing the MKS with just a 270 HP V6. Or, maybe there is more to the story. Maybe someone asked him, "Will the MKS compete with high performance sports sedans like the Cadillac CTS-V?" In that case, his answer might be OK.

    The Ecoboost version can't get here soon enough.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    :) Nah, didn't tink so!

    I've looked closely at the MKS on the Lincoln site and I do really like the exterior. I've noticed the site doesn't give one much of a look at the inside. Also the exterior color choices are quite nice.

    I can honestly say that, if my financial situation allows it in the near future, I would consider replacing my LS with a twin turbo AWD version of this car. Course that would be subject to the handling and ride etc of the 'Performace S" Maybe the MKS-GT? :) And how the interior looks and feels close up. Also though it would depend big time on the price and I've got a feeling the S-GT will cost over $50,000 thus priced out of my ballpark.

    Back to Mercury for a second - I learned yesterday that the Prius alone outsold ALL Mercury vehicles combined last year.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    The best view of the interior is in the "build and price" section. You can enlarge the view and change the color.

    The base price of the AWD is $39,105. I could be all wrong about the Ecoboost pricing but I find it hard to believe that they would put a $10,000 premium on it. The whole point was to provide power of a V8 with FE of a V6 and that it be affordable. This is supposed to be techology that trickles down to many Ford models over the next few years.

    Jeyhoe, I think you and I should be the first two on this board to own MKSs!! I can tell that you are warming up to the idea!
  • Being quite jetlagged here (and normally dumb and slow as well), I am wondering how to start an MKT discussion...now that the photos are out? (It sure doesn't look like a Flex!)
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    "Jeyhoe, I think you and I should be the first two on this board to own MKSs!! I can tell that you are warming up to the idea!"
    :)
    Well, you'll have to settle for just you, unless someone has a briefcase full of $$$s for me, I wont be buying any $40K or $50K cars for quite a while. Only way? If I could double the mpg of the LS and keep the ride etc. Same for my Navigator. Otherwise I'd be making car payments AND $4.00 gallon gas. Cant do it.

    Besides, I really dont think I'd get one without the more powerful engine. As it is, it's got 5 more hp than your 500, but it's gotta be eating that power up in added weight so I wonder if it'll even keep up with the Ford?

    As for price of ecoboost, I'll bet akirby knows but he aint tellin apparently. We could guess at it since Ford says it'll "pay for itself in 2.5 years where hybrid takes 12 years" If we say hybrids increase mileage by appx %, using Escape as the example ... could be done. I need another cup of Joe before I go further :blush:

    One last thing - I would certainly cross-shop the AWD MKS-GT against the CTS (304hp w/6-speed manual - $33,000 starting) and wife would force Infiniti into the drive-off so on price alone, I think the S would be at a severe disadvantage.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Hey - I tried to figure out the same thing Saturday for a different purpose - a discussion of the future, if any, of Mercury. I couldnt figure it out either. - WAIT -there it is, right at the top part of this page, right under big orange "Reply to this message" is a link says "Click here to start a new thread..." I'll give it a shot.
  • Thanks. Knew I could count on you. Plus the sarcasm is always an added bonus!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't know why I should know the price - don't have a clue other than the reference you mentioned. I think the 2.5 yr payback was based on the I4 Ecoboost getting 5mpg better than a similar powered V6, but I don't remember for sure. I'm guessing it's around $750.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Besides, I really dont think I'd get one without the more powerful engine. As it is, it's got 5 more hp than your 500, but it's gotta be eating that power up in added weight so I wonder if it'll even keep up with the Ford?

    I might wait for the Ecoboost. I would much prefer it unless they bundle it with an overly harsh suspension or other things that detract from it's "luxury." The price will play a role, too.

    As for the base V6, yes, the power to weight ratio and torque to weight ratio favors the Taurus over the MKS. Maybe the power curves are such that the 3.7 will have quite a bit more power at lower RPM than the 3.5. If that is the case, the MKS might be quicker on the low end than a Taurus. The Taurus 3.5 is quite a bit quicker than my early LS, though. The extra gear is probably as helpful as the extra HP in that comparison.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    gregg - you were able to start a new thread based on my message, but I cannot start a new thread. Somebody at Edmunds don like me?

    akirby - I dunno, you do seem to know more than the average bear about what's happening inside Ford. But $750 for the ecoBoost engine in the mks? Surely you jest?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I know some current and former engineers and read other forums with insider info - nothing more than that. And none of those people know anything about prices.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I originally guessed $1000 extra for the engine. Add to that the AWD which will likely come with it - $1,875. Toss in another $1000 for upgraded suspension/tires/wheels. That will put the MSRP around $42,500 before adding options.

    If I can get my manager to agree to $45,000 plus tax, title, and license, will you buy the car today? ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I'd go for the 335xi if I were him!

    Regards,
    OW
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I don't know Jeyhoe personally but I have him pictured as a big strapping body-builder type. He wouldn't fit in a little bitty compact car. :)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Yep !!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Sorry, Rocky, but this price doesn't apply to you. I know how you like gadgets and doo-dads! We'll load up an MKS Ecoboost with everything for you and it will come in around $50,000!

    Seriously, as I said earlier, if they can offer a well-equipped MKS with the Ecoboost for under 50 big ones, they have nothing to apologize for. It has taken forever but it could help put Lincoln back on the radar screen.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    :)
    Well, I am building my body bigger so it wont fit in a compact, but perhaps not in the way you were alluding to! :)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Even at $50 G's it's probably still a good deal !!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • cowbellcowbell Member Posts: 125
    If anyone want to check it out, there's a critique of the MKS in what I think was in the January issue of Automobile magazine. It's the first story in the magazine, right after the table of contents.

    I read it at the doctors office, which was appropriate because the review just eviscerated the MKS. According to the review, everything is wrong with this car. Every design element inside and outside is wrong.

    I'm not going to lie, it was sort of hard to take the review seriously. When a critique is so one sided and mean, you can't help but think the reviewer has an ax to grind, like an MKS ran over his dog a week before he wrote the piece.

    Anyway, check it out if anyone wants to see everything that Automobile thinks is wrong with the MKS.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's one of those "design as an art" perspectives much like a professional movie critic would review a movie. I'm sure most vehicles sold today would suffer similar criticism.

    Personally I think the MKS is decent. Not great but good. Certainly good enough to compete and make money which is what Lincoln needs right now.

    Also - Mulally was back on Autoline Detroit and answered all the tough questions this time. Lincoln is definitely going back to RWD, Mercury was basically a No Comment. He was asked about partnering and he said absolutely, and they're going to start with Ford (meaning Australia, Europe, South America, etc.). He said all the right things and I'm reasonably sure he meant them. The only thing holding Ford back now is poor decisions of the past (lack of engine and platform development).
  • theman123theman123 Member Posts: 170
    If anyone want to check it out, there's a critique of the MKS in what I think was in the January issue of Automobile magazine. It's the first story in the magazine, right after the table of contents.

    I read it at the doctors office, which was appropriate because the review just eviscerated the MKS. According to the review, everything is wrong with this car. Every design element inside and outside is wrong.


    I know everybody on this forum is about sick of me because I always make the most negative assumptions about the media and usually I'm right :blush:
    Come on now, we've been through this already. Allot of people on this forum should already know that the MKS is going to be the sorriest POS made. Angus Mckenzie of Motortrend already has called the MKS the "Wrong car" and he's written 2 articles about "What's wrong with Lincoln" Basically over insulting Lincoln and not giving Lincoln any credit for anything good they've done recently. Also, he was quoted as saying that "Ford is a truck company trying to build cars" that should tell you what he thinks of Lincoln and the MKS.

    Car and Driver has already getting their insults ready by stating "how can we take Lincoln seriously because the MKS is FWD" and let's not even speculate what Edmunds is going to call it. Considering the MKS is going after the BMW 7 series and the Mercedes-Benz S Class. I've said it before, stop caring about what the critics think. It should be very obvious what they think, Nothing !!!!!!!!! no i'm sorry Absolutely Nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and they are not in a huge hurry to change there opinion anytime soon. Everybody who is a Lincoln fan should be ready for a Piss#$g contest at Lincoln's expense since Hyundai is making the RWD Hyundai Genesis. It's going to be pretty ugly. :sick:
  • Lincoln is going RWD. The stuff just ain't here yet. MKS is the best that can be done now, and will be adequate to the task of keeping Lincoln afloat. However, Lincoln wouldn't be planning more and better platforms if they were not necessary. Aspiring to better than adequate is imperative, and it seems that Lincoln knows it. Cadillac has already shown what can be done, with both the buying public and all those rags you do not like.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Very true. FWD with optional AWD is just fine for Audi but sucks for a Lincoln. We know that the styling was already in the can before the MKR set the styling direction for future Lincolns and the only thing they could translate was the grille.

    I look at the MKS as more of a statement about Lincoln's commitment:

    New luxury features never offered by Lincoln and some that even the competition don't have
    No shared sheetmetal or powertrains with Ford platform siblings
    Improved interiors, especially materials
    High performance option within 12 months with more power than any previous Lincoln

    Given that the D3 was the only viable platform available when they started, I think it's a good effort. I also think it will pull in some import buyers. If Mulally had been hired 5 years ago we'd have a RWD MKS. But he wasn't and we don't so deal with it.

    As long as the MKS makes money to keep Lincoln afloat for the next 2 years - it's a success.
  • It is a good effort. No doubt. And no doubt Lincoln needs more than a good effort...and knows it. In time that effort will pay off. The MKS will do fine with most American drivers who want comfort. It is like stereo equipment...every stereo is good now, but the ones getting the accolades are not the adequate ones, even though very few people are the kind of aficionados.to appreciate subtle differences. Those people attacking the auto press are basically saying they don't appreciate or respect those subtle differences either. But the people who do the measurements are still going to rank the contenders best to worst based on fine measurements, and it would be nice for Lincoln to hit another home run like the LS again.

    And cut the crap about Audi. Because Audi has been so long tied to FWD, they have never achieved the sales or distinction of BMW or Mercedes, like it or not. And as a result, Audi is now going for broke. The R8 (mid-engine, rear drive) is a break with the past. RWD models are planned. But more importantly, they are beginning to redesign their AWD/FWD models to set the engine further back for better balance, moving away from that nose-heavy, engine-in-front-of-the-drivewheels imbalance they have had for so many years. That set-up is efficient and a great thing for economy cars, but cars of Audi's (and the MKS's) distinction call for more.

    Audi has had a reliability problem as well, but more importantly, they usually come out wanting in handling comparisons because of that extreme front bias. Front drive can be designed in a much more balanced way, and Audi is now moving in that direction (with the new A4, the A5, the newest TT, and the last A6 design). The engine is now further back and there is more weight toward the rear. They will get there, because they are very determined. Lincoln must have that drive to be the best as well.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "High performance option within 12 months with more power than any previous Lincoln"

    Forgive me if I have missed some posts...what HP option is supposed to be available in the next year???
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    3.5L Ecoboost (direct injection twin turbo) will be available within 12 months after the MKS launches. Estimated minimum 340 hp.
  • cowbellcowbell Member Posts: 125
    I think the main problem with all the critiques of the MKS is that they are judging it on totally inappropriate criteria. The MKS is not a BWM. It does not want to be a BMW. Or a Prosche. Or any other sports car.

    The most important part of a sports car is under the hood. The most important part of the MKS is in the cabin. I see the MKS customer as someone who has no illusions that their car will ever be lapping the Nurburgring.

    Now I haven't sat in an MKS, and I assume now one else in this forum has either, so I'm not willing to say if Lincoln made the MKS right, but to compare it's engine, or it's drive layout to luxury sports cars seems to miss the point.
  • Maybe we can agree to disagree? :)

    I don't see the BMW 5 series for example as a "luxury sports car", though there are of course hotted up 5 models, and I don't see the Mercedes E Class as anything other than a luxury car as well. Yes, M models are available, which can run with just about anything. It's like the CTS and the CTS-V. I don't think the CTS itself is a sports sedan, but it can be so equipped.

    Lincolns must compete on luxury and comfort as you say. The MKS may do well there. But it won't rate as well even with the base competing models of some other manufacturers, because it is not built to those standards (admittedly higher than most Lincoln buyers want anyway).

    Lincoln is going to follow up the MKS with better engineered cars with higher standards of performance in all categories of measurement. There are lots of people who will buy the best (or one of the best) even if they never intend to use those capabilities beyond what their old Buick could do. It is why some people buy Subzero and Wolf even when they are not gourmet home cooks.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Totally agree. Lincoln supposed to competes with Buick, Acura and Hiudai, but not with Cadillac, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes or Audi. There is a big difference between Lincoln and Audi and you know - it is value of engineering effort put in the car. Audi sells pretty well around the world so it will continue to prosper.
    I agree with almost all critique in Automobile regarding exterior design. I saw that something was wrong with MKS design but Automobile nailed it. That crude new grill looks like add on. Audi at least is well-designed elegant car. MKS by contrast looks like designers were limited by decisions made by higher management. E.g. higher management required to replace grill with new one – and they did it regardless how organic replacement looks. Is not as bad as Acura RL bad still is no Audi.
  • Could someone provide the link to that critique? Thanks.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I am subscriber, but you can read in department store while your wife is shopping :)
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    To each his own, but the Audi front ends all look very ugly to me.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    I agree, a Lincoln is a unique vehicle within itself. I do not expect it to go 0-60 in 6.5 seconds or less. With the high cost of gas, it will be good to have a fully loaded stylish vehicle under 50k running on regular fuel.

    I remember going to the dealer and seeing people tuning in their LS for the Zephyr and MKZ. To me it was proof that Ford was finally getting the point and producing the items their customer base was asking for. When the other car makers came out with the newest innovations, I believe the execs at Ford put on their conservative hats (which they have plenty of) and waited to see the justification proof of the product. In the meantime, research is being made on the technology and most of all the cost. Getting that cost as low as possible was a key element towards implementation. How else could they attached many of the same features that are in Lexus and other vehicles for $3000-$6000 less?

    The price for die-hard Ford and Lincoln customers was to wait. I believe the waiting is about to be over and Ford is trying to get in the mix. They will have to if they are going to survive.
  • Diehard Lincoln fans are not going to carry the day for Lincoln. The MKZ was a good stop-gap product, but never has sold anywhere near what the LS did in its first years. Sure, Lincoln makes more money with it, but stuff like this relegates Lincoln to also-ran status, building products for people who couldn't care less about the finer aspects of a luxury car. A 200 hp Audi A3 4 cylinder will do 0-60 in under seven seconds and get over 30 mpg on the highway, loaded with all the bells and whistles. 0-60 in 6.5 is not necessary and not what people are necessarily talking about when Lincolns don't measure up to the competition. Attention to little details and the feel of things makes so much difference, once you have had it. We'll soon see if the MKS adds that level of quality to the bells and whistles we already know it will have.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I think in many ways the Zephyr and MKZ have damaged Lincoln's reputation. Combine the lack of rear seat AC vents, stability control, hood struts, and power tilt/telescope wheel with a short wheelbase tarted up Fusion body and you are left with an also-ran. I can't imagine replacing a Lincoln LS with an MKZ unless the buyer purposely wanted to take a step down.

    I am hopeful about the MKS, though. I find it disturbing that the base engine makes less power than a 2000 Continental but with the better transmission, it should handily out accelerate its defunct cousin. As long as it has taken to get to market, I also find it annoying that the base model will be less powerful than an ES350 or V8 Buick Lucerne. No, it does not have to be a muscle car but part of "luxury" and "image" is strong performance, IMO. Too bad the Ecoboost will not be available at launch.
  • cowbellcowbell Member Posts: 125
    I don't know if I'd be using the A3 as an example of "the finer aspects of a luxury car." The A3 is what the MKZ is. A cheaper car that has been tweaked to be more upscale; in the case of the A3, a VW golf.

    And I would like to say that I am a fan of the A3. I think it's a great car at good price, and considered it the last time I bought a car. I think the A3 and the MKZ are good examples of how a platform can be taken up market, but I don't think either can be considered true luxury. I'll have to wait and see on the interior of the MKS, but it has a chance to be more of a luxury car than either the A3 or the MKZ.

    If you want an A3 like car from Lincoln, they could take a Focus, re-do the sheet metal and interior, adjust the suspension, and add some sound deadening measures. I don't think anyone wants to see that from Lincoln though. I know I don't.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I think you are spot on. I replaced my LS with a 330xi. The thing that urks me is tha the US did not support a model long enough to develop it like BMW did.

    Also had an '88 LSC.

    I wouldn't even look at anything from Lincoln anymore.

    Regards,
    OW
  • That's my point. The A3 is what it is. The quick 0-60 time does not a luxury car make. Most mid-line intermediates can do a quick sprint too, but that does not make them something more than a family car.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I was able to take a look at an MKS up close and personal last night. In addition, I saw the Interceptor and MKR concepts. Here are my comments about the MKS:

    Exterior - much better in person than in pics. The grill is stunning to my eye and the side view is great. The rear end and tail lights are the weakest in my view. The roof line is flatter that a Taurus so it doesn't look as tall and bubble roofed as its platform mate. The beltline seems higher giving the roof somewhat of a chopped appearance. Overall, I think the look is pretty classy and not as similar to other makes as the pics suggest.

    Interior - The Tuxedo Black MKS was on a turning table but since I was the first one in the door, I asked them to stop it and let me take a seat in the car. The first thing I noticed was the short seat bottom. I thought with 12 way adjustments, I could lengthen the seat but I could not. Apparently 12 way means the usual 8 way plus 4 way lumbar. The short seat bottom was a turn-off. I hope I missed some adjustment.

    The center stack was another turn-off. It was flat black plastic and not very sturdy on this pre-production model. The door panels, likewise, were very common. A Sable, sitting maybe 15 yards away, had a much more upscale interior, IMO. They have an optional wood appearance package for the door panels that I have not seen but it is needed. Overall, the interior was not nearly as upscale as I would have expected. The leather covered dash is nice but that is about all I could praise.

    According to the Lincoln rep on hand at the show, MKSs should be in dealer showrooms by June 1. I sure hope the interior of the production model strikes me more favorably than the show car. By contrast, the Jag XF is brilliant inside and out. The Audi S5 coupe is a knock-out, too. The MKR and Interceptor are both very striking.

    I would love to hear comments from others who have seen the MKS in person.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    I understand that Ford is working on improvements with JD Powers in order to make the required standards for the JD Powers award. The car is striking and it had to be in order to show improvements to the MKZ that many have quoted of appreciating its styling as well.

    No matter how Ford says that they have changed and become more adaptable to the needs of it's customers, I seem to alway see the conservatism that Ford just can not shake off. Sometimes I believe it hurts Ford in not only in styling, but timing as well.

    What seemed to me that should have been here 2-4 years ago (right after the LS) will be presented in a time of the highest gas prices in history. With that up against the MKS, the dull back end and cheap looking center console will not help people to say WOW and say I want that vehicle right off the bat.

    I will say that as dull as the back end may look, I have followed one in the evening during the manufacturing tests (I believe) in the Ford area and I can say it is distinctive. It will make you speed up to see what it is.

    If I had to choose between the two, I would say make the improvements in the center console. I believe the one in the MKZ looks better and to spruce it up and make the buttons a little bigger should make it more attractive. The exterior styling I like and should make a hit in that area.

    I am not sure of Ford's status on the eco boost engine, but due to the economic situation, they may want to either bring that in full production this year or hold off on the MKS for 6 months from the original launch date to make sure they get things right.

    All and all this is a bold new step for Ford. One that they are not use to making. So it is understandable of some of the unique moves that have been made and challenges they face.

    I do agree the center couns
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    I think the MKS is pretty nice designed. But the gauges Ford designed recently (MKS included) looks terrible to me. Do I have to bend my head in order to read the numbers? Who think it's cute? I for one hate it. All other companies feature beautiful optitron gauges and nice graphics, but Lincoln seems to stay the same way as years ago. Why?

    They may also change the typeface of all controls. I know it's "unique", but somehow it does not sound nice, or luxury, to me.

    I would also like to see a better designed steering wheel. Not as big, please.

    Otherwise, I am awaiting to see how it drives, handles, brakes... Looking forward...
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The gauge comment makes no sense to me - what exactly is wrong with it and why do you need to "bend your head" to see them?
  • My guess is English is a second language...
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    Agreed, If the seats are adjusted right, then this should be no problem at all. Based upon my MKZ (great car), I have ordered my MKS (or should I say MarkS). I am a little disappointed that they offer features on the website, but in relality will come later on the product. I understand that a new service is that Lincoln will communicate with you about the development of your automobile during the building process. I will be reporting the whole experience as it goes.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    Correct. English is second language. I don't know how to describe it clearly, but I'll try.. The numbers on the gauges are not "straight" - the numbers are "bent" (?) the same way the circle is running. Top of the numbers are outside the circle and bottom at the inside. The number 10, for example, the top of the number is on the left side and the bottom on the right side, and the higher numbers vice versa.

    If anyone of you undersatnd what I am (trying to) describing, please explain it in plain, simple English... Thanks in advanced. (If you look closely on the gauges, maybe you'll get it).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Yes, that was a better explanation and now I understand what you're saying. I don't think that's any different than most other vehicles but I honestly don't remember. I'll have to go look at a few others.
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