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Lincoln MKS

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Comments

  • I certainly wasn't holding Cadillac up as a great example of what to do. What I was saying is that even with their much more extensive and current lineup, they are not doing so very well (though way better than Lincoln). Even their worst stuff is better than what Ford left Lincoln to contend with. The DTS is nowhere near as ancient as the Town Car. The STS may not be selling, but it is a decent ride.

    The Escalade is holding up even in this tough environment. There is an Escalade hybrid. The SRX is being replaced with a more efficient and less station-wagony model. Lincoln has nothing at all like the CTS, which will soon be expanded by a coupe and a very racy looking wagon. The ESV and EXT extend the Escalade range. The XLR gives them a halo car. The V series adds to the cachet. And they already have a small presence in Europe. Plus plans for yet another rear drive platform right smack in BMW 1 and 3 series territory, but for less money.

    And yet their situation remains tenuous. Lincoln by contrast has almost nothing on deck. That's what I mean. The product planners and bean counters back in 2001 had no idea what havoc they would wreak and how their ture lack of skills might not just sink Ford from its long held #2 spot, but even spell the end for another venerable old brand like Lincoln.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Personally, I liked the handling and ride of the MKS. It was a luxurious ride, but had decent handling. I wouldn't call it sport, but don't think the car could ever be a serious sport contender with the FWD platform. It was comfortable, large enough, and adequately powered for what it was designed to do. The Eco-Boost will certainly be a plus. I liked it well enough to consider buying one next year to replace my Lexus. Frankly, it's quieter and tighter than my LS430 is. Hard to believe, but true.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Lets face it, Ford could never produce a Lincoln comparable to Cadillac and sometimes Chrysler in terms of performance. And sometimes Lincoln's quality would be sub-par to Cadillac and Chrysler as well.

    You're wrong there. Cadillac had the glory until the 80's, when they were making Oldsmobuicks with failing aluminum engines. (Coincidentally when I left Cadillac and went over to Lincoln). The Town car of the 80's and 90's was far superior to the Cadillac in every way. That all ended in 1998 though, and Lincoln has been spiraling down ever since, even abandoning the best lincoln ever made, the LS. I will argue however, that Lincoln's quality was EVER worse than Chrysler - not even sure about Cadillac....have to think that one over. Depends on the model I guess.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Lack of a global RWD platform and the mismanagement that allowed team Mustang to basically design their own one-off non-reusable platform is what killed Lincoln product wise. All things the Mulally and Fields would not have allowed if they'd been in charge back then. Of course that's water under the bridge now......
  • dds010dds010 Member Posts: 33
    whats the reason that lincoln cant use the mustang platform?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not sure exactly - just that the engineers have said that it can't be stretched for a sedan. Bottom line is they engineered the platform specifically for one vehicle - not taking into account any platform sharing. This is the way Ford used to operate - do whatever you want if you can make a business case. That's also how we ended up with a different Focus platform also not shared with anything else.

    That's why GRWD is so important. The potential cost savings for shared platforms between north america and the aussies is huge which would allow Ford to make more money on less individual volume.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    Wasn't it Fields who determined that the Mustang didn't need an IRS?
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    It just dawn on me. Lincoln isn't interested in stealing customers from those that drive 2005 and newer STS' with the MKS, it is aiming to capture those STS owners that still drive the fwd pre 2005 version of the STS. You know those that want to go zoom zoom instead of verrr-room ,verrr-room. Also, how does your sales people handle it when a customer ask "but what kind of wood is that in the car?" I have the perfect answer. Just tell the customer that it is ultra rare wood from the composite tree. Again if any Ford and Lincoln marketing people decide to use my nifty answer, I want royalties!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Also, how does your sales people handle it when a customer ask "but what kind of wood is that in the car?" I have the perfect answer. Just tell the customer that it is ultra rare wood from the composite tree.

    That would be funny if it wasn't completely wrong. The MKS has real wood.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    I know it has real wood. What type of wood is it? Is it maple,oak, walnut or is the veneer a composite of different types of wood? Similar to particle board?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The dark wood is Ebony. They don't say what the light wood is. Veneer is a thin sheet of real wood glued to a substrate. You can only do that on flat pieces. Composite is not real wood and neither is particle board.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    So for the extra $495, where do they put the extra wood?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That gets you real wood trim on the doors - it's right there on the website. It also says the light wood is Olive Ash.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    Damm, Thanks, Ill check it out. I may have to go another route then.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You can always get an aftermarket real wood trim kit that will cover the center stack and will match the factory wood if that's your only beef. If it's not already available it will be soon.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    Actually that's not quite the whole story. Ebony is the color of the wood. Ford has said that the ebony wood panels are made from what is basically recycled wood from furniture companies that is then chipped. Ford also said that the wood is manufactured similar to method that produced the wood panels in the MKR showcar. The chips are put into molds and then put under high pressure. Its easier to do this with the ebony because of the dark color of the wood. It's not that easy to do with the lighter woods because of the process. The process on lighter woods tends to produce mismatched panels. Because even the same type of wood has a different texture or pattern unless it is taken from the same part of the wood that is used to make the panels. This is hard to do if the wood is being recycled from different sources. Its easier to do with the darker woods because of the color or tint of the wood. At least that is what I've been informed. You can say it is a composite by the virtue of the way it is produced. Just look up in the dictionary what the definition of composite is or google define: composite. Particle board is produced from wood chips. Unfortunately the binding substance that is used in particle board to bind the shavings is formaldehyde. If it should sustain constant dampness, it will give off formaldehyde fumes. These fumes are known to cause respiratory distress especially to children with asthma. If anyone has this in their homes, try to have it replaced If it is older than five years. The wood in the MKS does not contain formaldehyde. There is nothing to be concerned with.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    Yeah you are right, I was thinking the same thing. right now I only see it in the Ebony style. My MKZ has that style and it is nice, but I went with the Olive Ash for my MKS. So like you said I will have to wait a little while to get it in that style. Does anyone out there know the average turnaround time on a MKS order. My order finally went to the factory on the 27th of Aug. I suspected it would take 6-8 weeks before I get it, but I have heard of earlier deliveries. :confuse:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I didn't know that - do you have a link that describes it in more detail? I'm curious how they keep the grain details. This sounds more like gluing and molding real wood as opposed to making a composite wood product.
  • fadetoblackiifadetoblackii Member Posts: 29
    The turnaround time's on the MKS's have been kinda hit and miss honestly. We (a dealership) didn't even get our first one until the middle of last month, (we were originally supposed to get it in June) so I don't know if you could really nail down a specific time.
  • dds010dds010 Member Posts: 33
    The spy shots of the 2010 Buick LaCroose and they seem to be running around with the MKS which means that Buick is trying to make the MKS one of its main competitors. If this is in fact the case i'm sure that GM is going to equip this car with the 3.6 DI 306 hp, and the fact that there where 2 mules one of which seemed to be a more sportier model leads me to think that they will also equip it with a V8. Lincoln needs to take this into consideration so it can make some powertrain, and suspension option upgrades for 2009.5 or 2010 MKS because Lincoln is suppose to be positioned above Buick and below in the american luxury scheme.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It just dawn on me. Lincoln isn't interested in stealing customers from those that drive 2005 and newer STS' with the MKS, it is aiming to capture those STS owners that still drive the fwd pre 2005 version of the STS.

    I was under the impression it was up against the Lexus ES. It has a very nice, if plain, interior and a comfortable, if non-sporting drive. It loses bragging rights in the horsepower numbers game but the car didn't seem underpowered. I have driven a few different ones now and they always were comfortable and pleasant enough, but I never got the impression they were targeting anything fast or performance oriented.
  • edward3608edward3608 Member Posts: 35
    I thought that the same process is used also with the Oak. I think Ford called it engineered oak. At least that is what I read when I looked up the Lincoln MKR on Google. I found it in the Car and Driver article.
  • edward3608edward3608 Member Posts: 35
    Have you ever heard of the Panther platform that is the basis for all 1980 and forward Ford large sedans. That includes the Towncar, MK VI both 2Dr and 4Dr versions as well as the lesser Crown Vic and Grand Marquis. Weren't the engines, transmissions ,instrument panel and suspensions interchangeable ?. In the 80's the body styles of the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and Towncar were nearly identicle. the only difference being the front and rear of each car. In fact these, models still have the same basic style. And less we forget the MkVII and VIII and the pre fwd drive Continental all based on the Fox platform from the Mustang which received it from the 4 door baby Marquis and its Ford counterpart. At least the MKVIII was modified to handle an irs. What about the Taurus and fwd Continental platforms? Don't forget about the 1976 Versailles that shared the Granada chassis and drive train along with most of its interior. Lincoln has also been guilty of producing the same type of vehicles in the 80's that Cadillac has. In some respects, Lincoln still does.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    Cadillac had interior by Fleetwood. Now Lincoln has interior by Kingsford. I guess the interior wood panels are one big briquet. I think that there is charcoal made from ebony and oak. Heck, if thats popular with the folks who buy the MKS ,may be the MKS will offer mesquite.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    Well no one seems to remember the blown head gaskets that were a problem with the late 93 and then 94 3.8 litre engines. Ford wouldn't even admit there was a problem until the dept of trans ordered Ford to repair the motors. The gaskets would start to leak oil at the earliest aprx 4000 miles. And according to Ford there was no problem. Also the oil pumps would tend to fail on the 5 litre engine with as little as 50,000 miles on it.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    Well tell that to Ford. Not that Ford cares.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The only thing that matters is how it looks and feels. Does it look and feel like genuine high quality wood? Reviewers say it does.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter from a large local newspaper would like to speak to Lincoln MKS owners. If you own a Lincoln MKS, please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime phone number by Tuesday, September 23.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    Why is it that some of those who post opinions about the MKS only post a positive opinion or a favorable reply for the car after another poster criticizes the car? Could these posters be connected to FoMoCo in some capacity? If so, they should stay out of the debate. I realise that criticism is hard to take, especially if one is responsible in some matter ,be it marketing or design, for the item being criticized. And if those posters are not connected in some matter with the car,why take criticism of it so personally? One would believe that some of the defenders of this car are having their personal reputation besmirched by those that criticize the vehicle.
  • gent70360gent70360 Member Posts: 33
    i have for some time had the same opinion in suspecting that some posters are connected to FoMoCo because of the intensity of their defense of the car, no matter the item.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Why do some people look for silly things to complain about, like how they make the real wood dash components or an engine problem that happened 15 years ago?

    I certainly don't work for Ford but I am a Ford fan. I've already admitted the MKS has several flaws - the gauges and center stack are cheap, I guess the trunk opening isn't as large as it could be and it's not a sports sedan with 300 hp and 50/50 weight balance (but then again it's not trying to be).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    i have for some time had the same opinion in suspecting that some posters are connected to FoMoCo because of the intensity of their defense of the car, no matter the item.

    Why do you assume that the things people complain about are all valid?

    Lincoln goes to the trouble and expense to use real exotic wood and someone wants to complain about how it's glued together? Give me a break.

    There are valid criticisms and invalid criticisms. I'll defend against the latter all day long, for any vehicle.

    I suspect that some posters must work for Lexus given their unreasonable criticisms. (see, that works both ways)
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    You may have a point. I have seen similar pattern with other vehicles of discussion. I think it is natural thing. If this is true it may be due to other elements that they have seen that others have not. I have talked to designers and engineers and for certain situations they explain other things were in play (material availability, cost, comparison of competitors, timing, etc). Even though I work for Ford (as a contractor), I have worked for GM, Chrysler, and Volkswagen. I have heard some of those same type of criticisms and protectionisms from within those organizations. I remember criticism of the vehicles I own presently and not supporting the company I was working for at that time. So that positive opinion I believe will always be there.

    I will be the first to admit my bias. I am a Ford guy and have been one for years. I have own other vehicles but I always came back to Ford’s. Call it quality, personal appeal, or just plain luck, I have had outstanding service and could not ask for more. Yet I know they are not perfect, I believe they are the automobiles industry best kept secret. Now when it comes to operations and marketing, that is another story.

    Having worked for Ford, I get the inside track on product and procedure on some things. With that I will say that some of the criticism I have read is justified for what that person knows at the time. Others, well they may have a point all together.

    I had mostly been a Taurus guy. After a while I was looking to upgrade and realized that I would have to either go on to Mercury or Lincoln. I went with the Zephyr and was impressed with vehicle. When I was able to perform a close inspection of the MKS back in February, I saw many of the same things I have seen in this forum. For me none of them were deal breakers. I ordered the car.

    Since I ordered it with some products that were not available yet, I had to wait. So the order went to the plant finally on the 27th of Aug and I have been informed to expect it the week of Oct 6th. I plan on sending regular reports and providing pictures for all to read and see. In this area MKS are flying off the lot. I have yet to see a dealer with more than a web page of inventory (7-10 vehicles). Most of them are the tuxedo black and the ultimate package. Price range is between $38,000 – 45,000 depending on what it has. From my research it seem that the average MKS stays on the lot between 5-8 days.

    Mine will top out around $48,000. I have read the pros and cons in comparison of the vehicle. In my opinion the MKS is in a unique area where it is hard to compare it to any vehicle. It size suggests comparison with the Buick Lucerne. But the MKS design is no comparison. I can spot one just about anywhere no matter what color it is. It commands attention with the bold split grill and high shoulders. It takes me a while to spot a Buick Lucerne even with its size. I will agree that the back end and trunk opening may need some work, but again this is personal taste and that is ok.

    Many say the engine is not what it is suppose to be in the power area. Both my Zeyphr and Taurus have 3.0 ltr engines and I have enough tickets to fill up a pretty good size wall between the both of them. For me a 3.7 is fine. You guys can have the EcoBoost. Just be sure to light me up when you are on the highway please, that way you get the tickets.

    All and all I think Lincoln did well with this fellow. Of course there will be improvements but to come out the gate, I believe it is a good running start.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    Do you work for Ford? Why is it that other auto manufacturers use wood for their vehicles that is purchased from the same block of the tree while Ford uses cast offs from other manufacturers? Could this be another one of Ford's better cheaper ideas? Would Ford use this so called exotic wood if Ford couldn't purchase it as seconds or cast-offs from furniture makers and then process it to look as if it is from the same block of wood? It's processed wood. One has to admit that the wood products Ford purchases for this vehicle are the cast-offs from other manufacturers. Ford admits it. Please explain
  • snagssnags Member Posts: 27
    Just test drove the MKS right after test driving the Nissan maxima and although i know they are not in the same category, the MKS was far better. At least the difference was apparent as it should be.

    I think that even though some maybe disappointed in some respects the MKS is at least a step in the right direction for LIncoln.

    The car with the ultimate package is loaded with incredible features and the and regular gas doesnt hurt.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Its interesting that if someone loves, say, an ES350 enough to overlook its total lack of soul or anything that might increase one's heart rate at all, no one questions it, but if someone feels that way about this vehicle, their loyalties are called up?
    I am definitely not saying the MKS is perfect, just wondering if there is a different bar of acceptance for different vehicles in the same market and price range.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ever heard of recycling? Being green? Environmentally friendly? The fact that it's more economical is just an added bonus.

    Wood used in furniture making is typically the highest quality available. When you cut wood to be used in furniture you end up with small pieces of this high quality wood. These pieces are no less quality than the part that ended up in the furniture - they're just too small to be useful to the furniture maker.

    Ford has found a way to take those pieces and turn them into real solid wood trim for their vehicles. The alternative would be that they end up in the trash pile or burned as fuel. So they're not only saving money but saving the environment at the same time without sacrificing quality.

    It sounds like you think they're taking sawdust, mixing it with glue and making a composite wood product and nothing could be further from the truth according to the article.

    If Toyota was doing the same thing they'd be winning awards from the greenies. But since it's Ford they're (incorrectly) accused of being cheap.

    This double standard is ridiculous and needs to stop.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    Let me see .The Lincoln is over 4000 thousand pounds, gets an average of about 20mpg ,good for the oil companies bad for the rest of us- uses genuine leather, -really gets P.E.T.A pissed- uses gobs of plastic that really depletes the oil supply, produces carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide from the running of its factories, not to say the amount of electricity that it gobbles up with its factories, uses wood from trees that are cut down and used by furniture companies. Okay, the wood is scrap wood from these companies but why use the wood at all if Ford is worried about the environment. If Ford is really concerned about being green, make a statement by refusing to use any wood at all. Yep Ford is really environmentally friendly. There is also the matter of getting what one pays for.
    Does Ford tell its customer that the wood is recycled? Also isn't it suppose to be a Lincoln and not a Toyota? What may be acceptable in a Toyota is not in a 40,000 thousand dollar car. Well, the MKS is really a 40,000 thousand dollar Taurus.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Do you realize that 4000 thousand pounds is 4 million pounds and a $40,000 thousand dollar car is a 40 million dollar car?

    If Lincoln didn't use real wood they'd get slammed by people like you for not being competitive.

    There is also the matter of getting what one pays for.

    You pay for real wood and you get real wood. Do you know how they make tabletops? They glue up smaller pieces of wood.

    Get over it. Do you work for Toyota?
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    Get over what? Sticks and stones may break my bones but Ford is still cheap. So you are comparing the engineered wood's manufacturing process to a wooden table top. Is the interior of the car a table top? I restore Mercedes, Rolls and Bentley. These fine Marks use wood glue also ;however, their wooden interiors all are produced from the same block of matching wood. Jaguar and Cadillac use wood for their interiors from the same block of matching wood. And they also use glue; but all of their wood matches all of the other wood panels that are in the car. They don't engineer wood to match. And didn't you post that particleboard is not wood? Believe it or not, but particleboard is made of wooden particles that are glued together. If you didn't know that, then how would you know how wooden table tops are made? . First of all, if you would have read the November issue of Scientific American with the article about Ford's "engineered wood", you would understand the manufacturing process of the "engineered wood." It states that the process to produce this wood is derived from the same process that is used to produce charcoal. Is charcoal glue together? If you don't know, look it up by using Google or another search engine. I notice that you didn't disagree that the MKS is a slightly better 40 thousand dollar Taurus. Why don't you answer the question that was asked about your affiliation with Ford? In order to get an unbiased opinion of the product consumers have a right to know if those who are posting on this site are affiliated with Ford. Don't you agree? I can't wait for the next answer.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Why don't you answer the question that was asked about your affiliation with Ford? In order to get an unbiased opinion of the product consumers have a right to know if those who are posting on this site are affiliated with Ford. Don't you agree? I can't wait for the next answer.

    So you're not even reading my posts? I said this in post 2148 about 18 hours ago:

    I certainly don't work for Ford but I am a Ford fan.

    I can't be any more clear. And I've been building furniture for 20 years so I know how they make particleboard, chipboard, MDF and tabletops. Particleboard doesn't look anything like real wood.

    You've never said that it didn't match or didn't look or feel good, so your hangup is simply on the manufacturing process. If it looks and feels good, what difference does it make?

    Yes, the MKS shares a basic platfom with the Taurus. It is therefore FWD and nose heavy and they share a transmission and possibly the gauge cluster. Everything else in the car is unique to the MKS including the roof line and doors which is the most obvious place to save money.

    And you never answered MY question: do you work for Toyota?
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    I don't work for any auto maker. An automaker wouldn't want me. I restore autos. If one is buying a premium vehicle ,one would expect to get a premium interior. That doesn't include recycled wood . Recycled wood is alright on lesser cars. And as far as Ford being green, I don't care if Ford is purple ,orange, red or a combination of. And I really don't care if the car only gets 10 mpg. People who could afford paying for a premium car should be able to afford the fuel and the extra cost of a premium interior using ebony or oak that has a matching grain pattern from a block of wood. In my opinion the engineered wood is just another method of if trying to do things on the cheap. Make it as cheaply as possible and then charge for it as though the option is made from a block of wood that has a matching grain pattern. I don't mean only Ford . Ford gets mentioned only because the MKS is a Ford product and that is what this forum is about. I think that every manufacturer would always try to do things as cheaply as possible and then try to maximize the return on investment from doing such. What I take exception to is doing that on what is supposed to be a premium vehicle. I would expect at least a little craftsmanship on that type a car. One has to ask if Ford couldn't use its engineered genuine wood ,would Ford use any wood at all in this car? Would Ford deemed genuine wood as being too costly? Another thing, what is happening to craftsmanship? If your a furniture maker, or a person who likes to make his own furniture and cabinets ,etc, then you should be concerned also.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Nobody has complained about the wood in the MKS interior. In fact it's been praised. You're the only one who has an issue with it. If you don't like it then don't buy it. Olive Ash is an option and is solid natural wood - ebony is an option. This isn't a hand built luxury car costing 6 figures. It isn't even a $60K Lexus or Mercedes.

    And I guarantee you if any other import mfr was doing the same thing it would be celebrated as another example of environmental responsibility. But because it's Ford it's criticized.
  • gent70360gent70360 Member Posts: 33
    I feel that many of your posts are worth reading. I feel that many posts from others are also worth reading. I have learned lots about the MKS from this forum. Don't anyone become discouraged by reading some of these posts that are directed towards certain people. Let's not let it get personal here. We all have the right to have our own opinions. We can explain them if asked. We shouldn't have to go out of our way to defend ourselves, however.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Point taken, however I don't appreciate the "you must work for Ford" accusations. And some people don't understand the difference between opinions and facts.

    "I don't like the ebony wood" is an opinion that nobody can argue with. Why can't we stick with that?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I have been fairly complimentary of the MKS, and own a Lexus LS430. Let me assure you, I have NO connections to Ford whatsoever. I just like the car. I wouldn't be so suspicious, personally.
  • dds010dds010 Member Posts: 33
    Thought the 09 Gator was suppose to be getting the 6.2 since it wouldnt be used in other applications.Until it gets a suitable powerplant then its going to continue to lang behind the Escalade. Its funny how it be producing the same amount of power since '99, and the Caddy was playing catch up, now its been completly redesigned 3 times and the Gator has only got front and rear end redesigns, man how times have changed.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    True, but do you really think a bigger engine with more power is what the public wants right now?
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Saturday, I got in an MKS, started it and the salesman and I took off. About 3 blocks later, a bell started to chime and he said it was because his belt was not fastened. It kept chiming after he fastened it and then the car stopped and would not restart. He said it was out of gas. I walked back to my car.
    Anybody had any experiences such as this? It didn't seem to give a lot of warning before shutting down completely.
  • datagendatagen Member Posts: 107
    Did you see anything flashing as well? What was the gas gage indicator indicating? If it was that low, it should have indicated this when you started it up. I know the owners manual is on-line somewhere (anyone have that?) where the process for low fuel can be checked out.
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