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Comments
And that reason is weight savings and hence fuel economy.
The debate isn't BOF vs. unibody (again, for consumers - commercial use is a slightly different story). It's TC ride, handling and styling versus MKS ride handling and styling. Lincoln can't compete with the other Luxury or near luxury makes with a TC.
The only people who would buy a TC or GM are the ones that already own one, and they probably bought it used.
The market is not there. How many times do we have to say it?
Ford simply does not have engineering prowess or know-how to develop competitive RWD platform. Jaguar with their engineering talent are gone and all those talks about Ford working on global RWD platform that could be used by Lincoln were nothing that good intentions with no substance behind - this attempt evidently failed miserably leaving Lincoln as Ford clones for foreseeable future.
Ford engineers are not as good as Hyudai engineers. What we are talking here about? Hyudais has more luxury image than Lincoln. MT recently stated that Genesis is a good value as a luxury car while MKS is overpriced. If you take into account that they cost almost the same - Genesis is a better luxury car.
Tell you what - you go find a full size (large) RWD luxury sedan that outsold the MKS in February. The 5 series, CTS and E-class are all midsized so they don't count. Go ahead - we'll wait...............
The Genesis is a nice vehicle but even Lincoln dealers look good compared to taking your car to a Hyundai dealer.
And unless you've actually built a world class vehicle I don't think you're qualified to comment on what Ford can or can't do. They must be doing something right since they're still in business and not on the cusp of bankruptcy.
I think Lincoln has their market picked out...Ford is getting to be more like Toyota everyday, one size fits most. So the Lincoln MKS works well for "most" lux buyers in the price range, and the 3 people that want a BOF vehicle, or are determined to get a RWD vehicle, get something else.
They are finally starting to do that with the trim levels, instead of 15,000 options, the have a DX/LX/EX ala Honda (in this case S/SE/SEL or what not). They are not trying to accommodate everyone in all markets - there are no wagons and no minivans. They are going for where the sales are.
I think the new Taurus, even more than the MKS, proves that Ford is finally being run by product people and not beancounters and board members.
Can you imagine the old Ford coming out with a Taurus that has 365 hp and more power than the Lincoln version of the same platform? Or without a Sable companion? The times have definitely changed. Too bad they didn't start a few years earlier.
What you are saying sounds like more anti BOF/Big car bias. The MKS is nice, but I believe that there is still a place/market for the true full size cars like the TC and GM. And don't talk to me about that "The market isn't there" stuff either. I bet you have no problem with Sports cars that sell 50 copies a month. Nobody complains about the market "Not being there" for those cars. Your post is just more of the same irrational hatred for a type of car that does not deserve it.
I agree that there is a market, it is just not the largest or most lucrative right this second, and right now I think survival is the issue for the Blue Oval. They also don't have a 50 car/ month sport program either. And I don't think anyone "hates" BOF vehicles, I think it is just a change in direction.
Ford is becoming more like Toyota (my way or the highway) and less like BMW (you can have it your way) or going from very high mix relatively low volume of each particular model, to higher volume (world cars) with lower mix (fewer trim levels, etc)
I'm not anti-BOF. I just think that unibody has so many more advantages when it comes to a $40K+ luxury sedan. If BOF was better then why don't the Germans or the Europeans use it in their luxury sedans?
The market and the competition has shifted. You might as well embrace it and move on. BOF sedans just don't make sense anymore.
Because of this, I don't think the big roomy cars will be popular again. Although I am starting to see several decked out with very oversized rims and new paint on the road, driven by younger people. Is this some sort of retro thing?
I suspect that the big cars would sell a bit better than they do now if only they would be updated. Don't get me wrong, I do like the MKS. But if there was something like the TC, but updated and stylish and full of electronic toys with the comfortable ride, I would consider it.
I don't think I need to be put down because of the way I feel. Not everyone wants a sports car like ride. I suspect one thing, that the sports car minded people are more likely to be on this forum.
The roads are very bad here in south Louisiana, where the soil subsides at a rate than can be measured, where pot holes can sometimes have mud bottoms, where seams in a concrete road need shaving down every so often. I don't want a close connection to the road.
1 - BOF has inherent limitations for sedans (weight and frame stiffness mainly) that are overcome by newer unibody architectures.
2 - there is a market for large, softly sprung, poor handling sedans - it's just very, very tiny and shrinking every day.
You can continue to buy and drive TCs and GMs and CVs for years, but it is totally unreasonable to expect Ford to continue investing in a dying platform.
If Ford wanted to build a super comfortable softly sprung luxo-barge they could do that on a unibody chassis. Why? See #2 above.
It happens. Cassettes gave way to CDs and now CDs are giving way to MP3s. It's called progress.
I do like big comfortable cars too, but the ones I have gravitated toward have been ones like the big Lexus, the Jaguar Vanden Plas, the Audi A8...if I could afford it, the Bentley sedan would be a consideration. All of them are quieter, less flexy and and better handling than the decades old Panther design. I especially appreciate a car that can both coddle and handle. Ford looked at updating those old cars and it just did not make sense. Those who want a Panther can still get them., but to engineer a proper 21st century rear drive sedan with IRS and either a unitized chassis or aluminum space frame is not a priority, when Ford is having difficulty right now selling their real money makers (F150, Mustang, Fusion...even the Focus is tanking).
The MKS is a good start, though I have no interest in it. If Lincoln does survive (and the jury is still out), they may have a big sedan again. But it won't be old BOF, solid axle with huge empty overhangs like the outgoing TC. But mostly, it won't be any time soon. Luxury SUVs took over where people needed to do heavy towing. Now, even SUVs will be moving toward unitized designs with greater towing capacity than befoer.
Notice that GM, even with their slightly more modern DTS and Lucerne are now letting those models wither...adn that decision was made even before they became totally bankrupt.. There are not enough people anymore shopping in the $35-45K range who want a four door sedan that is merely big and quiet adn can occasionallytow a trailer. They want technology as well, along with flexibility of use. The TC filled its role well for decades. Things change.
I didn't say it had to be a TC, GM or CV.
I didn't say it had to be a barge.
I didn't say I expected Ford to invest in it or make it. I don't believe the analogy of cassettes giving way to CDs then to MP3s is a good one. Progress to me is a transition to better technology such as the introduction of direct fuel injection or computer control of the engine; or the introduction of new features like the new fuel cap/door, or even air conditioning or power seats in an earlier era. Equating style and ride features to progress doesn't work for me. A big car with a comfortable ride does not have have anything to do with the opposite of progress. I just don't like your tone when you say luxo-barge.
If EVERYONE IN THE WORLD wanted something that was tightly sprung, and had sports car handling, then how do you explain all the very large pickups and full sized SUV's that were all the rage for the last several years. The way you sound, i get the feeling that you think everyone wants to drive a sport sedan.
At one time, LOTS of people wanted minivans. At another time, LOTS of people wanted SUVs. There will be something else at some point. It is human nature. There will always be LOTS of followers and a few people who go their own different way.
I don't like your tone. You want to be connected to the road and feel every bump, why are you even interested in the MKS? There are more tightly sprung and better handling sedans out there.
If you think noone "Hates" BOF vehicles, you must not be reading the same forum I am, becaue the hatred for those vehicles is pretty obvious.
If you want to believe that those vehicles tow better than BOF, go right ahead. It's not a fact, and it's just another example of your biases.
You are anti BOF, and just because the Germans or Europeans don't do something does'nt mean it's garbage. They seem to have trouble understanding the importance of torque in their engines to non highway drivers. Is that a better way to build an engine because the almighty Germans and Europeans do it?
Don't give me that the market and competition "Has shited" stuff. Talk to me about automakes NEGLECTING certain platforms and having ZERO advertising for certain cars. And don't tell me what to embrace either. BOF sedans may not makes sense anymore TO YOU, but your word nor your opinion are law. BOF sedans STILL make sense to me and others, which is why they STILL sell. Let us like them and leave us be.
1. That is just your opinion. BOF cars also have ADVANTAGES.
2. That is also just your opinion. In the late 1990s all I heard from the auto magazines was that NOBODY wanted Lincolns because they were "Old man's cars" and similar garbage. Then I recently found out that Lincoln was the BEST SELLING LUXURY BRAND IN THE US in the late 1990s. NOT BMW or Mercedes. That jsut goes to show you the extent of the bias of you and your ilk. You want to talk about that market "Shrinking"? Why don't you talk about the automakers NEGLECTING said car type, no advertising and no updates/refinements? Tell the WHOLE story for once and drop the bias.
That is NOT unreasonable. Why neglect loyal customers who like a product? That is just more bias.
Some people prefer BOF, and we are not monsters because we do.
More condescending and insulting crap.
You may not like BOF cars anymore, and that is your business. But don't tell us what to like and don't try to tell Ford that they are doing the right thing by neglecting/ignoring us.
I and many others still want big, BOF cars with long overhangs. That does not make us criminals or worthy of insults and being talked down to.
Where I live (NYC metro area), at least half of the Town Cars on the road have livery or taxi plates. They make up most of the "black car" fleets that in better times took those of us who worked on Wall Street home if we had to work late, after the trains stopped running. (No, I wasn't an evil banker - just a software writer.)
Don't think that I'm knocking the Town Car when I say this. Quite the contrary. The guys who drive these cars also own them; they're self-employed contractors who pay for dispatch services. They love the TC because they can get 300K or more (sometimes many more) miles out of it at minimum cost & with little downtime. When you depend on your car for your daily bread, you can't afford to have it in the shop for days on end.
Remember also that the roads around NYC are in poor shape, so these Town Cars take a lot of unintended abuse. During the busy times - for example, the Christmas party season back when the Dow was in 5 digits - a TC owner/driver typically logged 16 hours per day on the road.
The TC isn't my personal cup of tea - I'm your basic BMW-loving yuppie snob (or I was when I had a job) - but I have enormous respect for it. No car works harder.
So you really don't expect anything to change, you are just lamenting the passing of an icon or something?
The market for Sports cars like Corvettes and Miatas is not huge either, but I don't hear you or the others who think like you making insulting and condescending posts about those cars to their fans.
There isn't a huge market for anything right now, at under 10m vehicles a year. I am willing to bet more Corvettes or Miatas are sold than Panthers. I apologize if the tone of my posts was insulting or condescending.
And towing crashes, for miles traveled, were much higher in those days. So were highway fatalities. Drunk driving wasn't even illegal then.
I would much rather tow an airstream or ski boat with an Explorer or F150 than a Biscane or 210, or 88 or GM. That is my personal view though.
I and many others still want big, BOF cars with long overhangs. That does not make us criminals or worthy of insults and being talked down to.
Everyone is free to voice their opinions, to like what they like, that whole pursuit of happiness thing.
I have owned a couple of BMWs, and they were wonderful sporting machines. I am a universal type car lover, thus I can appreciate any car for what it is and what it does well, rather than knock it for what is, what it can't do or isn't good at.
The MKS platform is big enough for me. I would call it a big car. I just wish it had a softer ride option to go along with what in earlier times they would have called a touring option. Instead, they have something in the middle. Oh, softer seats would be nice.
Would an updated panther based car sell? I guess we will never know that answer now. By the way, I am feeling a much better now that I cooled off a bit. Sorry if I offended anyone.
I bet my life on Lexus making more profit on 700 units it sells than Ford on 1300 MKS units that most likely sell at discount and there is a good reason - because prevailing opinion is (e.g. MT) that these Taurus clones are overpriced.
"The Genesis is a nice vehicle but even Lincoln dealers look good compared to taking your car to a Hyundai dealer"
That simply is not true. All Lincoln dealers merged into Ford dealerships last couple of years. I used to go to Fremont Lincoln/Mercury for service - not anymore. Selling Lincolns along with Fords alone is indication to most people that Lincolns are not truely luxury vehicles and are over-priced - you can compare Lincoln price with its Ford clone right at the same spot on FordLincoln dealership
"Change" has nothing to do with it. There is no reason why big BOF cars should not exist. It has nothing to do with "Progress" or any other buzzwords. A usefull car type is a usefull car type, period, regardless of what year it is. The internal combustion engine, turbochargers, superchargers, and the very idea of the car itself are all 19th century technology. Does that mean that they are irrelevant or out of date? I think not.
Yes, I feel that the big BOF car is an automotive icon.
There are not many car types that I don't like, but there are individual models that I don't like, and if I don't like them, I will say so. However, the difference with me is that I will not act like my personal opinion is gospel and come up with all kinds of elaborate "Reasons" why the car should not exist, insult it or the people who like it, and say the automaker is stupid for building it and should not build it anymore simply because I don't like it. THAT'S the difference.
That makes sense and I can understand that. I think it has had extremes in the past, when early 90s Regal T-Type had 50 series tires and jack hammer suspension and the standard model had 80 series tires and was so wallowy it made you carsick. I think that made the automakers a bit gunshy. Even my Contour (mid-90s SE trim) had the sport suspension while the LX had the softer ride.
Increasing the tire sidewall height and decreasing the shock firmness seems like it would go along way towards meeting your needs.
Have you tried the seats in the Volvo S60 and BMW 5-series? It seems like Ford is trying to use similar technologies.
'09 Lincoln MKS press kit
Now, on to the subject.
You are displaying your bias again by chiding me for being angry at the automakers for ignoring the small market that I belong to (Buyers of big BOF sedans), yet agreeing that small markets that you like (Buyers of two seat roadsters) should be catered to. You also added a nice little snide, condescending remark. Thanks for making my point for me Gregg!
Is Ford abandoning the panther fans? Yes. If there was really a future market in those types of vehicles don't you think ONE of the other mfrs would be rushing to fill that void? They're not.
I had a 2000 Lincoln LS that was discontinued, and the MKS is not a good replacement. It's a different type of vehicle. Many LS owners feel betrayed, but I understand the business reasons.
It happens. Ask the people who want manual transmissions in midsize and large V6 and V8 sedans. They are virtually non-existent outside of very expensive super high performance models. You can't blame the mfrs - blame the consumers who stopped buying them.
In your case - blame the other consumers who decided they wanted firmer suspensions with better handling and steering.
Yup,and not just V6 and V8s; you won't believe how much that limits my buying options (not that I would want an MKS with a stick, although the LS with a stick was a lot of fun).
Obviously, for fun and spirited driving, the Porsche cannot be beat. For comfort, luxury, and competent performance and handling, the MKS has it all over the Grand Marquis. in every category. Not being an engineer, I would not presume to debate the advantages of BOF vs Unibody, I can only relay my seat-of -the-pants impressions.
By the way, my greatest disappointment with the GM was when I realized (not having done my pre-purchase homework) that despite having the 4.6L V8, the towing limit for the GM is a paltry 1000 lbs, not even enough for a small UHaul rental. I understand this is a result of transmission trade-offs to facilitate greater fuel economy (same as the MKS), but I thought a V8, BOF, RWD land yacht would have SOME towing capacity.
There are PLENTY of LS replacements you could by. The LS was a high performance luxury midsize sedan. Those are NOT exactly rare.
I feel the MKS is a good replacement for the 95 to 02 Continental. A big FWD luxury cruiser.
Here we go with the "Everyone wants a sports sedan" crap. Yes, they said that while big luxury sedans, BOF and not, were selling like hot cakes. Whatever, seriously WHATEVER.
Now how would YOU like it if we told you:
"Stop crying because the automakers won't give you a stick with big engine sports sedans".
"If sports sedans with big engines and sticks were in high demand, then the automakers would MAKE them! They don't, so NOBODY wants them, DUH!"
"The automakers are SMART not to offfer no stupid big engined sports sedans with sticks, nobody wants that junk, which is why they sell in such small numbers!"
"Those of you who want a stick in a big engined sport sedan need to just accept an automatic or a manumatic. It's called progress, sticks are old, outdated technology! Grow up and get with the times!"
"You want a big engined sport sedan with a stick? Too bad. The manufacturers don't make that slow selling junk anymore, and good that they don't!"
Doesn't feel so good eh?
Which of course will not happen. Such people will continue to forsake domestics for their superior handling Japanese and Euros, and the domestic makers will continue to lose buyers, market share, and alienate their shrinking pool of buyers.
Make Panthers and the like less appealing to their core audience with stupid crap like those idiotic tow ratings and other foolishness, all the while knowing that BMW/Accord people will NEVER buy them. What a smart business model! No wonder the domestics are in such hot water.
For those who have not purchased a MKS yet and with all the talk about ride and comfort, let me report what I have found. Mine has the 20 inch rims and the ride was pretty stiff at first. I first thought that it would stay that way because of the low platform tires, but in my 5 month, the ride seems to have improved and has become much smoother. Here in my area we have some very serious chuck holes from the winter and the MKS seems to handle them surprisingly well. On long trips I have notice the seat becomes uncomfortable and I have heard other comments in this same area. I will have to admit after 3 hours of straight driving, I am sure anything would not feel good. The engine noise is noticeable when wanting serious performance from it. It may be a little louder than other luxury cars, but I though maybe this may have been the balancing act the engineers were trying to achieve between luxury and sportiness.
I am not trying to make excuses for the MKS, It is far from the perfect auto and there are some quirks I do have about it. But again for the attempt towards balance, I believe I understand their plan and applaud them for it.