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Chevy Camaro Concept
hpmctorque
Member Posts: 4,600
From the photos in the Detroit Free Press (www.freep.com), the Camaro Concept looks very good. Wish it were in Chevy showrooms now instead of being a possible '09 model, but, hopefully, the production car will be a winner for enthusiasts and for Chevy.
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Just some thoughts.
Yes, it will have to be rear wheel drive, and offer a V-8 to come to the party, but it will also have to offer something the last few Camaro's didn't have - quality. It will need to be built with a great interior (previous generations just horrible), and attention to detail. Much like Ford stepped up the quality of the F-150 (for a truck no less), GM will have to do the same for the Camaro.
I've been checking out the upcoming small car segment (like the Honda Fit, Nissan Versa, etc.) and all of these small cars will have to offer higher quality as well to sell. And these are $13k machines. So the Camaro, and Challenger, etc. will also have to be of high quality and great design. Something not synonymous with past Camaros.
I don't think it has to offer every gadget and doodah, but it can't be a complete replica of old muscle cars: fairly fast in a straight line, but not good at much else (and I am a muscle car fan, but I don't confuse what they can do with a Porsche for example). The new Camaro will have to be quick, but not Z-06 fast. That's what the aftermarket is for. It has to be comfortable, ergonomically designed, and offer most features we take for granted. Some practicality like a useable trunk would also be a good idea. Build a good out of the box modern day muscle car that can be tweaked to be a terror like the old muscle cars were, and you will sell plenty.
But what did in the last Camaro, was that they were not reliable, not that great in the safety column, expensive to insure, and not that useful as everyday driving machines.
I would like to see a quality V-6 option too, that could get better gas mileage, but still have a lot of punch. Add in good looks, a state of the art interior, useful space and good ergonomics, and price tag of $20-$28k loaded, and GM will be back in the winner circle. I just hope I can afford one when they come out!
Personally, I don't think they need to offer the all aluminum LS2 as their base V8 edition. I think their 5.3l V8 hooked up to a 5sp stick should be plenty for a Z28 edition with the LS2 for a future SS model. Base price for the V8 needs to be in the neighborhood of $25-$26k.
I really like the looks of the car (but those giant rims will never make production). About the only thing I would change would be the nose (lookes too pointed to me).
Also with the new Camaro, I doubt the huge rims will make it to production. And I wouldn't want them anyway. Imagine the cost of rubber for 22" rims? 17" with an 18" option would be fine with me. Again, the aftermarket will take of this too. And I would also change the nose. The '69 Camaro is one of the best looking designs ever. Still one of my favorite cars of all time. Make it look a lot like it, just like the new Challenger looks like the old one, another great design, imo.
But I can see how those predisposed to GM designs might like it. It looks like the same family as the Cadillac designs, which also don't do anything for me.
It does make me wonder a bit about what makes something attractive to some, but not others. Back in my single days, I went for the lean athletic look, whereas a good friend went for the "bigger is better" busty look. Made for a good friendship. At least we knew we'd never have to fight over the same woman!
In any event, to each their own. There is no "right" answer when it comes to personal preferences.
Of course the exterior and interior will be toned if the car is approved for production.
Simple concepts are simply ignored at autoshows.
The Camaro is getting swamped with attention.
Think about it.
Would the production Camaro be toned down from the concept? Sure; it'll lose the GIANT rims and the nose will be a bit more crash-worthy. Probably lose the grilles in the leading edge of the rear fender. But I think the overall lines are very very close to what we can expect on a production model.
And if they lose the weird lighting/colors in the interior (and odd console treatment forward of the shifter), I think that interior is fairly close to production as well.
Be interesting to see if the IRS makes it into the production version...
To me, it looks bloated, out of proportion all around. The beltline needs to be lowered and the greenhouse raised slightly. The back-end looks as big as a Corvette's. The overly big-tire look is dead, and has been for a long time (just grateful they didn't have spinners on it). That door looks loooooooooong (from a shot of Lutz standing with the door open) and heavy. Again, I think they need to rethink some things and TAKE THEIR TIME!!! This car definitely does not need to be rushed. I would rather GM/Chevy take extra time and get it right than to repeat the Monaro/GTO mistake.
Lutz stated they need to sell 150 - 160K/yr to make it profitable; can this version make and sustain those numbers? As for now, I'm still leaning toward the Challenger. :surprise:
Back in the muscle/pony era, Ford was first on the scene with the Mustang, and Dodge was last with the Challenger. Well, Ford is back out there again with a real attitude. Let's see who hits the showroom floor next. Chevy or Dodge?
I hope the next Camaro will be no longer, wider, and heavier than the original one ('67?), and, if anything, slightly trimmer. If it has to be slightly taller to offer a usable back seat, well, that wouldn't bother me. Also, I hope the production model features independent rear suspension, even if the added manufacturing expense is factored into the price.
I hope the '57 - '58 was meant to be '67-'68. Remember the Mustang if a mix of 65 - 70, so in size, it was definitely going to be the bigger, later car. Just be glad they didn't make it the behemoth 71 - 73 model.
But again, between the Dodge and the Chevy, I have to give it to the Dodge. Seems those people understand the heritage of the what the cars were and what they mean to people, still to this days, sans Charger of course. I see too much XLR in the front end of the Camaro concept, too much Corvette in the rear and the taillights look like they came off a '70 Cuda. It almost looks like the Arnold Schwarzenegger Mustang concept that became the SN95.
They should use the 5.3L V8 from the New Impala as the base engine and price it right in between the V6 and V8 Mustang. The concept car should become the Z28 and be priced about $28,000 when fully loaded. Later they should offer a more tuned LS2 with around 450hp with weight reduction for the SS version and they can price that version at around $34,000. They should put 18" wheels and tires on the base model and 19" on Z28 and SS or maybe a 18"/19" staggered setup instead. As for transmissions the Tremec T56 works well for a manual and I would like to see a 6 speed DSG or SMG for the "automatic" duties. If not then the 6 speed automatic transmission in the C6 Corvette should work as well.
Fully loaded with an aluminum 400hp LS2, 6-sp manual and IRS.....for $28k?
You're not asking for much, are you?
You've GOT to keep the price down. Base Camaro with 3.9l V6 and 5sp manual. Z28 Camaro with 5.3l V8 and 5sp manual. SS Camaro with the LS2 and 6sp.
IMO the SS should be manual only. 4-sp auto in the base car, perhaps the 6-sp auto in the Z28 (I wonder what the cost difference is between the 4-sp and 6-sp units :surprise: ). 16" rims on the V6 base, 17" rims (w/ 18" optional) on the Z28. 18" standard on the SS; leave the staggered sizing to the Corvette. Let's try to be realistic here.
You guys can make your wish list a mile long for the new Camaro but you can't then expect it to compete financially with the Mustang. Don't you guys remember that lack of performance didn't kill the old F-bodies - it was the cost. Make the car LOOK killer, and perform WELL (not trying to set any land speed records here, ok?) and keep the PRICE competitive and the Camaro will succeed.
As far as cost we are also talking about another 2 or 3 years from now also and cutting corners where the competition is concerned is what got GM in their predicament. They need to get progressive and start setting the standard once again instead of following it. Offer what no one else is and at a better price and they will come. That's how Lexus grew and most Japanese companies for that matter. There was a time when it was considered a joke to own a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, even a Hyundai and they have all or are coming to the forefront now as a serious competitor.
Either way Corvette people aren't gonna cross shop a Camaro for a Corvette and with the added weight then the Camaro won't touch the Corvette in performance. So it's safe for GM not to cheat us out of a REAL Camaro.
I'm not that concerned about particular looks. For me, the new Camaro should:
Dump lowbrow image: no goofy graphics or boyracer addons. Camaro must have same middleclass/ uppermiddleclass appeal as Mustang, i.e., affluent women who will buy a Mustang V6 convertible would also consider a similar Camaro.
Have rwd, manual, big V8.
Be comparable in cost to equivalent Mustang performance.
Should handle better than equivalent Mustang. Doesn't have to be faster in 0-60, 1/4 mile, but close.
Better weight distribution than Mustang.
Should be more sporting than Mustang even if it makes the car a bit less comfortable.
If GTO is still around, it's ok for Camaro be be slower, but it must outhandle GTO.
I'm not sure what Challenger will be, so I have no sense about how Camaro should compare.
Not sure about any other/future rwd V8 coupes...are there any?
http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/
Click on "SEE IT UNVEILED". The intro part is a little annoying, but seeing all the older Camaros, plus the concept car at the end, is well worth it.
Having read all previous posts, I think they should keep the LS2 for the standard Camaro, but offer the LS7 for the SS. Unless Corvette execs want the LS7 for the Z06 only.
Why?
Are you saying the Camaro can't compete with the Mustang unless it has a large horsepower advantage? That didn't work with the previous generation F-bods.....
Yes, the New Camaro looks pretty cool. A bit wide, and I would imagine a bit heavy. I would make a smaller car, which would be lighter, and use the 3.6 V6 out of the CTS for the engine. By the time the New Camaro is released, gas could be $3.50 a gallon or more - who knows? A lighter engine is easier for getting to 50/50 weight distribution. Then they could add the optional V8 for those in need for more HP, at any cost. Something around 325HP or so would do.
-Loren
P.S. GM should price this under $21K, with a V8 for $25K
Mustang was the first Pony car, and has outsold Camaro.
So in that respect it has dominated the scene.
Beware the first two years of a launch of a new domestic car, as they often have bugs still in the cars.
The '85 IROC you say! Hey, I was amazed to see the State Troopers in Nevada driving those Camaros years ago. And now CA has a few Camaros too. And they get to drive fast with no tickets.
-Loren
While I like the Challenger's styling, its size and weight are unappealing to me. I understand that the Challenger's dimensions were dictated by the business case to use the large Chrysler RWD platform, rather than by a "hey, the Mustang is nice, but it's too small; we've got to make the Challenger bigger and heavier" mentality, but still... I say, that's unfortunate, while understanding that the Challenger's sales volume wouldn't be sufficient to justify a separate platform.
From what I've read about the Camaro concept, it will be closer to the Challenger's size than the Mustang's, which, incidentally, is already significantly larger and heavier than the original Mustang, or even the slightly larger '67-'68 Mustang (my personal favorite).
I realize that most enthusiasts aren't as concerned as I am about the size and weight of the new pony cars, but in this day of high fuel costs, wouldn't it make more sense for the equivalent power to weight values to be achieved by keeping the size of the new generation of pony cars similar to the original versions?
Incidentally, my favorite Camaros, from a styling standpoint, is the '82-'92 generation. The '67s-'70s are also nice, of course.
And please - please NO more high rise doors, with shrinking windows. If it is required to make the side impact test results higher, so be it, but please at a certain point enough is enough. The 350Z styling is just out of control.
-Loren
I agree with you that high rise doors detract from styling, m1miata.
THE MUSTANGS SHAPE IS DESENT BUT IT DOESNT BREAK THE WIND ENOUGH?ON A DRAG STRIP WHO WOULD WIN CAMARO OR SHELBY GT 500 U TELL ME.
Now, turn OFF your Caps Lock. There's no need to shout.
Second, who knows who is 'better'. The last time I saw any sort of comparison test was several years ago.
OH, you mean comparing the CONCEPT Camaro to the PRODUCTION Mustang, right?
"BUT WHO HAS MORE HORSES"
We will know the answer to that question when the PRODUCTION Camaro hits the market and we can then compare that to what the production Mustang has. Most folks have acknowledged that the 400hp LS2 probably won't be the base V8 (Z28) option but would probably appear in a Camaro SS version. The Z28 would probably get the 5.3l making somewhere around 310 - 320hp.
"THE MUSTANGS SHAPE IS DESENT BUT IT DOESNT BREAK THE WIND ENOUGH?"
In all honesty, I don't think either of these cars are some sort of aerodynamic champion. In this segment, styling goes a lot further than aero.
"ON A DRAG STRIP WHO WOULD WIN CAMARO OR SHELBY GT 500 U TELL ME."
Who knows? But assuming you are talking about an LS2 equipped Camaro (400hp / 400 ftlbs.) vs. a Shelby GT500 (in excess of 450hp /450 ftlbs.), on paper the Shelby seems to have an advantage. Of course, I've no idea what an LS2 Camaro would weigh (and the GT500 is certainly no lightweight), and who knows which does a better job of getting all the power to the ground.
Maybe we should just wait until these cars are actually BUILT before guessing who would win....?