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Toyota Camry Hybrid

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Comments

  • snozwangersnozwanger Member Posts: 2
    It might be interesting to see what the Previous vehicle(s) were:
    I know of one where it was ...

    1. 1/4 ton pickup
    2. 1/2 ton pickup ( 20 yrs old )
    3. Honda Element
    4. 2003 Infiniti FX45
    5. 98 Camry XLE ( 115K trouble free miles )
    6. 04 Accord LX
    7. 95 Toy Land Cruiser (200,000 miles 13 mpg! I love the LC and am keeping it as well)
    8. 91 Camry V6 Le (selling)
    9. 06 Chrysler 300 loaded (bought 03/13/06, called last week for a TCH just went and watched it come off the truck 05/24/2006)
    10. 94 Acura Legend L - 116K miles of mostly commutes - rarely averaged over 18MPG!

    Add on as you wish..
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Pretty amazing comparison. Doesn't sound like all of the natuaral gas is getting to the stove burner.

    You trade in a fairly new $50K vehicle to get better mileage. The Voodoo economics just don't add up, there is a lot of lost depreciation.

    Hey if you buy a big heavy 4533 pounds, big engined Vehicle (4.5 Liters, with 320 horsepower) you are going to get good mileage. What did you expect?

    The Hybrid Camry is less featured, less weight and less luxurious, less cargo, but it does provide much better mpg

    I would venture to say that the depreciation loss on a 1-2 year old FX45, estimated to be $15-20K will take some 5 years to recover at the current gas rate of $3 per gallon.

    It is amazing the number of people that just do not understand economics or at least don't want too.

    LOL.

    MidCow

    Next you will hear avout Hummer H1 owners trading for Corollas to save gas and money LOL
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    maybe he wants to save GAS more than he wants to save MONEY

    ever think of that?
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    It is amazing the number of people that just do not understand economics or at least don't want too.

    There's NO Comparison to make. It's simply what I went from ...to

    Call it a change of attitude. If you look at my previous posts you'll notice I have had a lot of sport(y) vehicles. I trade often, can afford to and don't appoligize for it. That can show a lack of understanding (or concern)about finances, not necessarily a lack of understanding of economics.

    I have two kids I am helping to get started in their careers and I am getting close to retirement. I have decided I no longer want to participate in the power race and simply wanted an economy car. I did not want a small Honda, or a weird looking prius or Insight, The gasoline cars with good FE are typically too small for my tastes. When I saw the TCH being offered I felt that was "interesting" enough to keep my technology side happy and frugal enough to make a difference in my finances. I would have preferred that the ES350 been offered with the hybrid option

    It's not totally about milage but that is a part of the overall financial package.

    I don't live life looking back so the real question is about the economics of the TCH, not what I traded.

    However, as for the trade, it was a $48,000 MSRP that I got with a $7200 discount and 1.9% financing. I was very happy to own it. I did enjoy it and the 16.3mpg average on premium gas did not bother me. I have lost more in trading 1 year old vehicles than this, so for my poor track record, this deal is one of my better ones. Actually I lost $11,000. I've done worse in lot shorter times. (I'm plan to quit doing that too.)

    I traded for a 4 (model year) newer car for $500 difference. I am getting a Fed Tax credit of $2600 and a State Tax Credit of $3750. I am also saving > $170/mo in gasoline and my payment went down $230/mo.

    One of my biggest concerns is getting totally out of debt and having my 401K and pension to continue travelling the world. My "values" are changing.

    For what it's worth, and this is the "he's a nut" part of the story, I fully believe when Iran does get full nuculear capabilities, that they will share it with their friends and there WILL be some doom and gloom for the American economy. I've sat in lines in the 70's for gas and the thoughts of being able to travel 600+ miles on a tank of gas to visit my relatives without having to fill up is just one of the benefits of the TCH. Driving around all week on a tank is nice as well. What if gas hits $4 or $5 (and I think it will) how do people afford to drive? (I can afford it if anyone else can) What's going to happen to the American economy when all the people in trucks and SUV's (I have one of those as well for hauling) commuting to work start paying most of their salaries for gas? How are they going to be able to dump all of these gas hogs and get economical cars?

    Doom and Gloom??? Naw, but tough times. I just don't want to be a part of it anymore.

    Call me crazy for having a change of life but I fully understand economics. Do you? You must, I see you drive Honda's. Why can't you accept that I see the light like you? Am I doomed to continue driving sports cars or Luxury vehicles just because I went down that path?

    I remember they thought I was crazy back when I traded my 3rd BMW, a 525e for an Astro van and a Silverado. Hey, it was what I wanted at the time. I had young kids and lived in the country and road traveled a lot.

    Now I fly to islands rather than drive to the beach. I pull a trailer rather than own a truck.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Thanks alp8.

    It's tough to defend philosophical and attitude changes against someone that wants rational thinking.

    My past was not rational. This is rational.

    I've also show in past posts for me specifically, this is a great economic decision. Huge tax credits, great gas milage and a comfortable car. If it could tow 3500# I'd get rid of my SUV as well.
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    you've probablyheard this rant from me before, but anyone who says the hybrid decision is a bad one from purely an economic standpoint and compares your hybrid purchase to some other new car purchase is completely off-base, since ALL new car purchases are stupid (from a purely economic standpoint).

    You can't even talk "smart" economic car buying decisions unless you are talking about a used car.

    and we all know that many folks do not buy cars based on economics. If they did, no one would drive a BMW.

    ouch!!
  • dmhltd1dmhltd1 Member Posts: 31
    I don't worry about it. Buying a new car for me is purely an emotional experience not an economic one. Everyone knows that you take a hit in depreciation when you drive it off the lot and the "smart" buyer buys used. But the "smart" guy probably doesn't get the new car smell and the odometer at less than 10 miles and a new warranty, etc. etc. The "smart" guy either doesn't care about those things or cares about saving money more.

    With the TCH I'm even worse. I know I'm not going to save any money and I take that hit up front. But every time gas goes up $.25 I'll be smiling. And I'm not going to shave off the hybrid sticker, I want people to notice it after they see my license plate LS4NOIL.

    Just about everyone makes an emotional purchase at some time that makes no economical sense.

    Lastly, Maybe the "smart" guy made all the right economic choices but failed to research the vehicle and manufacturer reliability ratings and failed to get that "uneconomical" extended warranty and took it in the shorts where he keeps his billfold. :P :D
  • hybridriverhybridriver Member Posts: 77
    You can't even talk "smart" economic car buying decisions unless you are talking about a used car.

    It would be hard to argue this point, BUT by far the worst car purchase I ever made was a used Mazda that ended up eating money at a stupid rate. After that, I vowed to only purchase new cars, so as to: a) make sure I knew how the car had been cared for; and b) make sure I had some warranty protection. Of course, purchasing very low mileage vehicles probably affords a hedge against both of those issues.
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    yes, same with me. My worst car purchase was a used Acura Legend - whoudda thunk it? (actually, it was the one Acura Legend that had lousy marks in Consumer Reports, and it failed for exactly the reason CR gave it bad marks - so shame on me)

    but we can't make broad generalizations based on our individual experiences. Our purchases are single data points.
  • bmgoodmanbmgoodman Member Posts: 102
    LOVE your plate choice!

    I'd plagiarize you and use it on mine, but with Virginia's Clean Special Fuel Plate (to get the HOV exemption), I don't think there's any personalization. Just a boring number. Of course, the other "boring" numbers, 2600 (tax credit) and 38 (MPG) ease my pain! :)
  • shaunsshauns Member Posts: 24
    The NAV system in the new Camry takes up all the space on
    the dash. NAV system owners - where do you insert the CDs?
  • hybridriverhybridriver Member Posts: 77
    The NAV system in the new Camry takes up all the space on
    the dash. NAV system owners - where do you insert the CDs?

    You just hit the "Close" button and the display is moved outward and then rotates 90 degrees to allow access to the CD slot. It's pretty trick, actually, although it takes a few extra seconds to open/close.

    BTW, with the Nav system, you only get a 4 CD changer, not 6, as I read somewhere.
  • straversestraverse Member Posts: 6
    It might be interesting to see what the Previous vehicle(s) were:
    I know of one where it was ...

    1. 1/4 ton pickup
    2. 1/2 ton pickup ( 20 yrs old )
    3. Honda Element
    4. 2003 Infiniti FX45
    5. 98 Camry XLE ( 115K trouble free miles )
    6. 04 Accord LX
    7. 95 Toy Land Cruiser (200,000 miles 13 mpg! I love the LC and am keeping it as well)
    8. 91 Camry V6 Le (selling)
    9. 06 Chrysler 300 loaded (bought 03/13/06, called last week for a TCH just went and watched it come off the truck 05/24/2006)
    10. 97 Mercury Sable LS (219,000 miles)
    11. 2001 4Runner SR5 4WD (loved the car, but 19mpg for a commuting car was really bothering me)

    Add on as you wish..
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    WOW LOL I never thought of that. "Saving GAS instead of Money" Probably also burns dollar bolls for heat.

    Motor-On and have a good Memorial Day weekend,

    MidCow
  • dmhltd1dmhltd1 Member Posts: 31
    1. 1/4 ton pickup
    2. 1/2 ton pickup ( 20 yrs old )
    3. Honda Element
    4. 2003 Infiniti FX45
    5. 98 Camry XLE ( 115K trouble free miles )
    6. 04 Accord LX
    7. 95 Toy Land Cruiser (200,000 miles 13 mpg! I love the LC and am keeping it as well)
    8. 91 Camry V6 Le (selling)
    9. 06 Chrysler 300 loaded (bought 03/13/06, called last week for a TCH just went and watched it come off the truck 05/24/2006)
    10. 97 Mercury Sable LS (219,000 miles)
    11. 2001 4Runner SR5 4WD (loved the car, but 19mpg for a commuting car was really bothering me)
    12. 2000 Solara XLE V6. 103k miles. Great car, gets about 18 city and 22 combined :( .
  • lmlpxhlmlpxh Member Posts: 8
    Has anyone been able to get the voice recogniton to work with the speed dial? I tried to set it up and after 1 hr, gave up. I got to the point where you record your voice for the name, but it didn't work. What's been your experience with voice recognition so far? It's been pretty much useless so far.
  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    Works fine for me. I have 10 numbers set up where I hit the voice recognition button, say the name, it is repeated and then I push the off hook button to dial.

    Takes less time.
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    Have a good, long weekend, MidCow

    what kind of beer will you be drinking?

    You know, I can get you just as drunk on beer that costs half as much. Oh, you say you don't mind spending an extra buck to get the beer you like? That's the spirit!!!

    ;-)
  • djpdx1djpdx1 Member Posts: 30
    1. 1/4 ton pickup
    2. 1/2 ton pickup ( 20 yrs old )
    3. Honda Element
    4. 2003 Infiniti FX45
    5. 98 Camry XLE ( 115K trouble free miles )
    6. 04 Accord LX
    7. 95 Toy Land Cruiser (200,000 miles 13 mpg! I love the LC and am keeping it as well)
    8. 91 Camry V6 Le (selling)
    9. 06 Chrysler 300 loaded (bought 03/13/06, called last week for a TCH just went and watched it come off the truck 05/24/2006)
    10. 97 Mercury Sable LS (219,000 miles)
    11. 2001 4Runner SR5 4WD (loved the car, but 19mpg for a commuting car was really bothering me)
    12. 2000 Solara XLE V6. 103k miles. Great car, gets about 18 city and 22 combined .
    13. 2004 Nissan Murano SL, 27,000 miles, loaded, 18.9 MPG average, joy to drive, premium fuel too expensive to drive.
  • hamm3rhamm3r Member Posts: 55
    I have also been using the feature with no problem. Once you get the names set up, let it sounds like you have, just hit the voice button. After you are prompted you can say "Dial by Name". You will then be prompted for who to call.
  • spiff72spiff72 Member Posts: 179
    On another forum, a buyer was told that the Consumption Monitor/Energy monitor wasn't actually on the new Camry Hybrid with Nav (the monitor on the Nav Screen).

    Can an actual owner please confirm that this is false?

    Thanks!
  • spiff72spiff72 Member Posts: 179
    Never mind - I got my confirmation.

    Thanks!
  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    Skip the "Dial by name" prompt unless you like the delay. Just hit the voice button and say the name.
  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyota-Camry-2007-TOYOTA-HYBRID-CAMRY-40MPG-CITY_- - W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6017QQitemZ4644252409QQrdZ1

    $786 under MSRP
  • parnolaparnola Member Posts: 141
    I'm surprised to see the BIN below MSRP - most people aren't getting discounts at their dealers.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    It is probably just an veiled ad for the dealer to since they should be able to just quickly sell it below MSRP from someone walking in off the street if every other dealer except them always sells for full MSRP.

    If it is that great of a deal, it should sell in just one day without need for an eBay ad especially since it is one of those "one at this price" deals.
  • ehaszehasz Member Posts: 15
    Saw a TCH in Jasper Pearl today -- it's really striking in person. That will put some people off, but some people are just going to love it I think. It's much "greener" than I expected -- I wonder if that's intentional like it's a "green" car, and that color's only offered for the hybrid version...
  • stevevillatorostevevillatoro Member Posts: 30
    See the new "real world mileage numbers" thread on this site.
  • kevintlutzkevintlutz Member Posts: 9
    It works mostly well for me. I'm have two problems. The first is long phone numbers (10 digits). It has a problem getting them all correct. With short numbers, I have no problems. I also have no problems with dial by voice.

    The other problem I'm having is with uploads of phone numbers. I'm using a Motorola RAZR V3 phone. I think the problem is with the car. When I go to upload several numbers in a row, it keeps reverting to the very first number I uploaded. For example, I upload Tom ok, then Mary ok, then John, but John is loaded with Tom's phone number. A few days later, I load Mom ok, then load Dad and get Tom's phone numbers. Tried it again a few days later, and the second or third number became Tom again.
  • rscotts54rscotts54 Member Posts: 47
    I saw the Jasper Pearl Hybrid on a dealer's lot.... Let's just say that the color would be an "acquired taste."

    As badly as I want a TCH, I don't think that I could handle that color. It was marked sold, but hasn't been picked-up for a few days. Hummmmmm.....

    BTW..The Jasper Pearl does not look anything like the Aloe Green Metalic on the non-hybrid models.

    To put it another way...
    "Jasper Pearl" is to "Aloe Green" as
    "Yeller" is to "Yellow."

    I'm sure that some will like the Jasper color, but not me.
  • bnewinsbnewins Member Posts: 25
    What tires are coming in on your TCH? What is there wear rating? Temperature rating etc.? Factory pressure?

    Thanks
  • hueristixhueristix Member Posts: 30
    I have been reading this awesome msg board for a while now. Learning what I can here.

    I have the opportunity for a loaded TCH mag grey on about June 3rd if I believe the dealership.

    Been agonizing whether I should go for it and the additional financial burden, or just go for a stock LE. The thing is once I go for a TCH I want the nav screen for the energy flow display purposes.... Toyota must know that so the only way to get that is to also get the better stereo, leather, moonroof, ie loaded.

    Therefore it is tricky since I need to compare items which don't really compare- but out the door including tax credits, the hybrid is 8,000 more.

    I am a long time environmentalist who considers all of this a "good start" to shift consciousness into preserving our little fish bowl here.

    Part of me says- go hybrid, life is short, more hp's + mpg's, way more features.... the other says, get the LE, save a bundle, and take your pick of the newer hybrids that will come out.

    Still waffling- leaning towards the hybrid. Either way can't wait to make up my mind.

    What kinds of insurance deals are you TCH owners getting out there, esp. those in CA?

    cheers
  • ggav73ggav73 Member Posts: 31
    My understanding is that the energy flow screen comes on the base model, independent of having NAV or not. I had the same concerns like you, but this is my impression. I hope actual owners can confirm or infirm this... In terms of NAV, I have a Palm TX and I just bought the TOM TOM Palm GPS Navigator for $200. All the streets are there, pretty well updated, it works well but it requires some basic knowledge of PDA and some patience, I admit.
  • scottgbscottgb Member Posts: 23
    I just drove a base model today, and it didn't have the energy flow screen. The salesman said that it only comes with the navigation system, and that he thinks Toyota should
    have included it on all models. Very impressive car, extremely quiet and smooth.
    The only thing I noticed was while driving at a steady highway speed, I seemed to feel
    a little bit of surging. The speed wasn't changing at all, but I definitely felt something.
    The salesman said that when he first drove a Prius he noticed it too, but it was something that he doesn't even notice when driving a hybrid anymore.
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    The Energy Monitor is only available on those units that have NAV. This is the same as in the Highlander Hybrid units with/without NAV. However, all TCHs have the ECO Drive Level display on the speedometer which measures current fuel economy while driving. You may want to go to the Toyota website, and you can see pictures of the Energy Monitor and the Eco Drive Level Display.

    Also, no TCHs have the back up camera, as in the Prius.
  • hybridriverhybridriver Member Posts: 77
    Been agonizing whether I should go for it and the additional financial burden, or just go for a stock LE. The thing is once I go for a TCH I want the nav screen for the energy flow display purposes.... Toyota must know that so the only way to get that is to also get the better stereo, leather, moonroof, ie loaded.

    Part of me says- go hybrid, life is short, more hp's + mpg's, way more features.... the other says, get the LE, save a bundle, and take your pick of the newer hybrids that will come out.

    My advice: Get the Hybrid!!! If cost is a major factor, why not just get the base model? The energy flow screen can be useful (and even amusing), but the main thing I want to know from it is what state of charge the battery is in, and that info is also available on the display under the speedo. Or, if you are the patient type, you might be able to place an order for a TCH with only the Nav option.

    What kinds of insurance deals are you TCH owners getting out there, esp. those in CA?

    I'm paying just under $1,200/year for Allstate comprehensive in the SF Bay Area. I have a spotless driving record.
  • hueristixhueristix Member Posts: 30
    I think I will go for it, with an eye on trading it in over the next 2-3 years. I know the energy screen is not necessary but for some reason if I am going hybrid I MUSt have the cool screen. I expect I will feel like a Lexus owner with a loaded TCH! I will have to throw down for the Sirius and tinted windows, install my bazooka tube, and go ghost ride da wipe in dt Santa Cruz.

    Who is to say what we can truly afford or not, when you are trying to look 5 years down the road. ;) If gas goes to $5, which I don't see as impossible, I will grin as I drive past Chevy SUV's.

    I would get a Fit or something akin, but I want the feeling of being in an actual substantial sedan. Can't wait for my car!

    My dream would be a Subaru Hybrid or even better, (bio)diesel hybrid, those subarus rock but they are thirsty!
  • bnewinsbnewins Member Posts: 25
    I am picking up my base Barcelona Red TCH Monday. After months of research I feel the base unit is very well optioned. Close to the XLE with some small differences.
    Bought a red Prius package #3 for my wife 2 wks. ago.

    Go for a base unit Camry Hybrid and the difference from the LE will be smaller.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What kinds of insurance deals are you TCH owners getting out there, esp. those in CA?

    Not sure about the TCH. My GMC Sierra Hybrid got a discount from Farmers as of Jan 1st. I have $240 deductible collision, and it went from $651 each 6 months to $453 each 6 months. I save $396 per year and NO smog check in CA. So in 3 years it will more than pay the $1000 premium for the hybrid stuff. And I have emergency AC power available for the rolling blackouts.
  • kevintlutzkevintlutz Member Posts: 9
    I really wanted the TCH with leather, but didn't care about the navigation, sunroof, etc. So I went with the base unit ($25,900) and the dealer swapped out the cloth seats for leather for an additional $1,000.

    As for the after market GPS Navigation units, I use a hand held. I can take it from car to car, and use it when I go hiking. It has most of the same features as the car based unit and a lot that the car based units don't (i.e., portable, topo maps, etc.)
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    I would recommend this website to you: hybridcenter.org.
    It contains a list of benefits for owning a Hybrid vehicle in many states, including CA. In CA, we don't get any state tax credits for buying like other states. We do get some parking priveleges in the cities identified. According to that website, Farmers Insurance is offering a 5% discount on Hybrids. However, you may want to verify this independently with the agent. As a customer,I know that this carrier offers good driver's discount, multiple vehicle discount, and an additional discount if you have home owners insurance with them (this is pretty standard across all carriers). However, I have found that when comparing just rate versus rate and no other discounts, 21st Century Insurance is the cheapest.
  • gandyfiregandyfire Member Posts: 36
    Saw a TCH in Jasper Pearl today -- it's really striking in person. That will put some people off, but some people are just going to love it I think. It's much "greener" than I expected -- I wonder if that's intentional like it's a "green" car, and that color's only offered for the hybrid version...

    We love the color. Actually drove 200 miles a few weeks ago to see one. I think many are appalled by it but since it is exclusive to the TCH people will know you are going "green". Kind of resembles a granny smith apple. Am waiting for a loaded one to come in
  • orgeorge Member Posts: 4
    I turned down a fully loaded Jasper Pearl last week. It had everything I wanted, but I couldn't handle the color.... If you'd like to take a vacation in northern Wisconsin, it's probably still on the lot!
  • len1827len1827 Member Posts: 2
    Am expecting to pick up my TCH in a few days. Wanted to get a few extra keys (fobs) for it. Always have had an extra key with me and also my wife has always an extra key. They are extremely expensive. The salesman quoted $500, but I don't think he meant it, just that it was rather costly.

    The parts department quoted $300 for the fob and $95 for the emergency key to get into the car (of course it will not start the car). I complained (ranted) and I got a substantial discount on a key. I was ready to cancel the purchase. Paying this premium for the car when it is debatable that there will be net savings due to the superior mileage almost does not compute.

    I think Toyota should substantially lower the price for the fob and key. There is a charge to program it also.

    There are sites that will sell remotes for many cars, but so far I can't find one that has this one. One problem is it is so new.

    Has anyone dealt with this situation?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Has anyone dealt with this situation?

    I thought I had lost one of our keys to the Passat. It was $275 including programming. I thought that was outrageous. Your situation is tough. It is hard to bargain on a vehicle that sells as well as the TCH is selling. I would think they would want to please you on the sale and sell them at cost. I know they are making a lot of money on them. The knock off key fobs are about $35. Yours is keyless ignition?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's neither the key ( dirt cheap ) nor the fob ( moderately costly ) but the engine immobilizer chip in the fob or the key that makes the cost go up so dramatically.

    As one poster on another forum blasted me for speaking in hyperbole about $300 keys and a $1500-$2000 if both masters are lost.... JUST DONT! Just as with the Passat it's expensive to lose these new keys.

    DON'T LOSE BOTH MASTERS!!
  • nutguynutguy Member Posts: 2
    I'm in the market to replace the family hauler and I'm looking to buy or lease a vehicle that can handle up to 5 people comfortably when needed, yet be good looking, a top performer, have plenty of gismos, bells and whistles and economical to boot.

    I'm looking for advice about what others think may be the best car to look at. Should I go for a new Camry or go after the good and steady Accord or try out a Sonata? Also, what about a Fusion or Mazda6?

    Does anyone have any advice on what they think is the car and performer for the buck today?

    Nutguy.
  • ggav73ggav73 Member Posts: 31
    if you think Sonata, consider Azera as well.
  • jcookejcooke Member Posts: 2
    I had my HCH in for a replacement of some part the other day and since it was going to take two hours I visited the Toyota dealer next door. I had liked the 2007 Camry in photos, however, after looking it over very closely I was not really impressed. I have also looked at the Buick Lucerne and it is a much nicer car and by many accounts a better built car with a better finish.
  • fullofbeansfullofbeans Member Posts: 33
    I"ve got a question about the alarm system and the smart entry system. If you get the alarm installed do you have to pull out the key fob from your pocket each time you enter and exit your car? My salesman still hasn't answered that question yet. My car should be arriving next week. I told him I won't take that alarm if that's the case. It kind of defeats the purpose of having smart entry and smart start. I remember reading a post here a while back, one of the members has ordered this alarm , yet hadn't taken delivery. Anyone here have this factory alarm on their TCH? tx I still haven't seen this car in Canada. I sure hope NOT to see one b4 I pick mine up!
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