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Comments
http://www.aceee.org/transportation/taxcredits06.pdf
The only flaw I can find is they are using Toyota's estimates for Camry city mileage, not the EPA (which hasn't been announced yet). Shouldn't be too far off though.
Also the Ocala FL dealership I spoke with only mentioned 3 option packages for the hybrid, so 2 of the 4 options mentioned by jtdpx may come as one package.
"These same cynics may argue that the hybrid premium isn't worth the savings in gas. I disagree. In my week of rather lead-footed driving, I got 30.5 miles per gallon in mixed driving"
the writer got 75% of the predicted estimate of 40 mpg using a "rather lead-footed driving" technique. How would the LE 4-cyl do with the same driving style?
Features
Standard features
P215/60R16 tires with 16-in alloy wheels
TPMS
Halogen lamps with auto on/off
DRLs
Heated dual color-keyed power outside mirrors
SKS
Cruise control
Maintenance indicator
Optitron meters with instant FE meter and multi-information display
JBL premium AM/FM/MP3 6-disc changer with bluetooth, 8 speakers, 440-watt output
homelink
Aux jack
Auto-dimming electrochromatic mirror with compass
Power windows with driver's express down
Dual zone automatic climate control with electric AC, pollen filter, rear vents and "plasmacluster"
Leather wrapped steering wheel and shift knob
Manual tilt and telescopic steering with audio/bluetooth/climate controls
Vehicle dynamics integrated management (VDIM)
Rear center headrests
60/40 folding rear seat
Chrome exhaust tip
Cargo net
Optional features
NAV with JBL premium AM/FM/MP3 with 4-disc changer, BT, 8 speakers and 440W output
Power tilt/slide moonroof with rear personal lamps
Leather-trimmed interior with driver and front-passenger heated seats
Unique styling cues
"Special" front grille
Blue tinted headlamp reflectors
Acoustic front windshield
LED taillamps
HSD badging
Miscellaneous cool stuff from the book
Electric power steering
Speedometer/multi-information display: provides trip info and power flow/FE data. instantaneous FE meter replaces tach
They didn't show a picture so i'm having a hard time picturing this, but "the meter's blue rings correspond to the average fuel consumption figure, the brightness of the rings change depending on the level of efficiency during the drive"
How cool does that sound.
And oh, oh, oh do i wish the Prius had this:
ECO HEAT/COOL BUTTON
"when engaged, the system allows the engine to shut down when stopped under a wider range of driving conditions for greater efficiency and reduced emissions. it does this by reducing heater and a/c output"
And NO FUEL BLADDER (same system as the HiHy- airtight metal fuel tank)
Specs
Engine
2.4L 4-cyl DOHC 16 valve with VVT-i
Bore and Stroke: 3.48x3.78 in
Compression ratio:12.5:1
HP: 147@ 6000 rpm
Torque: 138 lb ft@ 4400 rpm
Ignition: Toyota Direct Ignition
Fuel system: EFI
Fuel: Regular unleaded
Emissions control: AT-PZEV
Electric motor/generator/power storage
Permanent magnet synchronous motor
Electric motor power output: 108 kW @ 4500 rpm
Torque: 199 lb ft@ 0-2000 rpm
Battery type: Nickel-metal hydride (204 1.2 volt cells)
Nominal voltage 244.8
Transmission: ECVT
Capacity: 6.5 Ah
Battery peak HP rating: 45
Max voltage: 650
Hybrid system net horsepower: 192
Fuel economy
43/37, 40 combined (preliminary EPA estimate)
Zero to 60 in
8.9 seconds
Suspension
Front: independent macpherson strut with stabilizer bar
Rear: independent dual-link with stabilizer bar
Stabilizer bar front/rear: tube, 24.2/15.9 in
Brakes
Front- ventilated disc (hydraulic with power assist) and electronically controlled brake system with integrated regen system
Front diameter: 11.65 in
Rear- solid disc (hydraulic with power assist)
Rear diameter: 11.06 in
Parking: foot pedal
Swept area: front/rear 237.6/192.2 sq in
ABS: standard
Tires and wheels
Wheel size: 6.5x16 in
Material: alloy
Tire size: P215/60R16
Tire type: all-season steel radial
Spare: temporary
Steering
Type: electric power assist rack and pinion
Overall ratio 16.0:1
Turns: lock to lock 3.2
Turning circle: 36.1 ft
Exterior dimensions
Wheelbase: 109.3 in
Overall length: 189.2 in
Overall width: 71.7 in
Overall height: 57.5 in
Tread width: front/rear 62.0/61.6 in
Minimum ground clearance: 5.9 in
Drag coefficient .27
Interior dimensions
Headroom front/rear without moonroof: 38.8/37.8 in
with moonroof: 37.9/37.8 in
Leg room: 41.6/38.3 in
Shoulder room: 57.8/56.7 in
Hip room: 54.6/53.9 in
EPA passenger volume: 101.4 cu ft w/o moonroof
99.7 w/moonroof
EPA cargo volume: 10.7 cu ft
EPA class: midsize
Capacities
Engine oil: 4.3 qt
Fuel tank: 17.1 gal
Vehicle mass
3637 lb
Max towing weight: 1000 lb
Warranty
Comprehensive 3/36
Powertrain 5/60
Corrosion perforation 5/unlimited
Hybrid component 8/100 (15/150 in CA emissions states, except hybrid battery which is 10/150)
Safety
7 airbags standard: front, side, side curtain, driver's knee
Side impact door beams
3 point seat belts for all seats, emergency locking retractor on driver's belt, automatic/emergency locking retractor on all passenger belts, adjustable shoulder on front seat belts
ABS with electronic brake-force distribution brake assist
TPMS
VSC and TRAC replaced by VDIM
Childproof rear locks
DRLs
XLE Feature Advantages
Price
35% bigger trunk
Reclining Back Seat w/ passthrough
Power Passenger Seat
Wood Trim Interior
Hybrid Feature Advantages
Smart Key
Better Fuel Economy
Moonroof not required - Save $ and better headroom
LED Tailights
Blue Tinted Headlights
No stabilty/Traction Control option required
Are there others of any consequence that I missed?
The XLE weighs less, and will probably handle better and stop quicker. The brake pedal will probably have better feel.
The Hybrid will accelerate faster, and in low speed/stop and go conditions will probably be quieter.
The current issue of Motor Trend has a comparison of Prius/Civic Hybrid and Accord/Camry hybrid. I saw it at the local bookstore and glanced through the article.
(Yes, I'm still WAITING for my own copy in the mail!! Why don't paying subscribers get their copy FIRST???!! But that's another forum!)
Anyway, a few things I remember:
- 0-60 in 7.9 seconds
- MIXED driving of 31.5 mpg, including a stretch where the driver punched it to 100
- driver thought it was easy to get 40 mpg going 70
(and yes, I was surprised that the driver got better HW miles than city)
That's all I remember. I am anxiously waiting for my own copy to pour through more of the stats. Hope that's helpful to anyone looking for my CH info
No Stabilty/Traction Control needed on the Hybrid because the VDIM system integrates the stability, traction and ABS systems.
Quoted: "In our analysis, none of the six hybrids we have tested recovered its price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership (see Hybrids vs. all gas). Nor did any when the analysis was extended to 10 years and 150,000 miles. Rather, extra ownership costs over five years ranged from $3,700 to $13,300. "
Out of 6 hybirds they tested ,NONE were more cost effective after five years than their equvalent non-Hybrid models.
I find it humorous that the Prius no equivalent is equated to the Corolla.
Lucky I didn't buy a hydrid, becuase who in their right might likes to drive like their grandmother :confuse:
Double Sixes,
MidCow
I find it humorous that the Prius no equivalent is equated to the Corolla.
Right there on the face of it wrong comparo so the entire conclusion is specious. There is no non-hybrid Prius. CR is trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
OK if you want a smaller vehicle than a Prius you can save money no question, but you can also buy a Fit too or a Yaris for that matter and save tons of money. Certain buyers wont be caught dead in an econobox.
I do, especially after getting a real nasty speeding ticket last week. If only I drove a hybrid in a grandmotherly fashion then I would not know the names of every single officer on traffic control duty.
Sorry about your ticket. That is a real bummer . While I hade the density or the traffic and the amount of drivers in Houston. The traffic and density also has advantages, you can drive fast here most of the time without fear of tickets! :shades: However, in your case, there has to be an in-between speeding and driving elderly that would better fit your needs and pocketbook! Hyperdriving , except for looking at the FDC and instanteous mileage, can be Oh so boring! Life should not be about dreading going from point A to B. Listening to my Invidia exhaust with the top down, now that is living even going the speed limit.
My Grandmother, bless her soul, taught me to drive a standard many, many years ago on a 3 speed shift on the column Black Chevy
cruis'n in 6th,
MidCow
Hey KDSpyder- What in your opinion is the closest non-hybrid Toyota car to the Prius if not the Corolla? What should CR have compared it to ? The Camry seems too big ??
Let's wait for the TCH and then compare that to the ICE Camry or should it be compared to the ICE V6 Camry? There again which is the valid comparo?
By comparison it's exactly the same size as the Passat.
Has anyone ever pointed out that these comparisons are completely unfair? Did Consumer Reports, R&T, MT, etc. do "price premium" comparisons between the 2006 4 and 6 Cylinder Camry, Accord, or [fill in your favorite car here]. Or how about a price premium comparison of the Highlander vs. the RX330? Of course not, because they realize that people bought the V6 or RX330 for different reasons. Many times people buy it because they "need" the extra power, or it looks better. Same thing with folks who buy Hemi's. How many people actually need as much horsepower as is offered in these engines?
The Hybrid engine offers more than just improved fuel economy. It offers improved power, quiteness, cool-factor, and prestige. Why is it ok for other car buyers to spend money on these things (but not hybrid owners) and why does improved fuel economy have to be something that is measured only in dollars and cents?
Just received my APRIL issue of MT where the article compares Prius/Civic hybrid and Camry/Accord hybrids.
0-60 time IS 7.9 seconds - so basically, you're getting the performance of a V6, with Corolla-like mpg. Don't think that enters into Consumer Reports article - which by the way, has plenty of assumptions that are just .. well, wrong.
Some of the Motor Trend article -
"That's one helluva car," drivers muttered after climbing out of the Camry Hybrid. And they're right - meaning Toyota may be wrong in scheduling only 7% of Camry production to be fitted with HSD. Too low, we recokon ... at a price that's 4 grand cheaper than the Honda's.
Technically, it's based on the Prius' HSD architecture, but there are differences. One is that it's 2.4-liter Atkinson cycle four is bigger by roughly the displacement of a small Fiat engine, while the electric motor is smaller - 45 hp vs the Prius' 67.
Our nonscientific observations of the Camry's fuel consumption found the Toyota delivering an honest 40 mpg at a steady 70 mph and a squeak above 30 mpg in LA.
Other stats:
45-65 passing - 3.8 seconds vs 5.8 for the Prius
Braking, 60-0 - 126 ft.
Weight distribution - 57%/43%
Hope that helps!
I think Toyota's hybrid system is still by far the best, mostly because of its generously powerful electric motor. Small wonder why Toyota is spending a lot of money to dramatically reduce the cost of Hybrid Synergy Drive, which means we could see a hybrid Corolla when the next-generation Corolla arrives in Spring 2007 as a 2008 model.
It makes perfect sense with the HCH doing well. If a Corolla hybrid were in the $20-$21K range with significantly lower costs it could be the premium version of the Corolla while getting realworld 50-60 mpg averages.
It also serves the purpose of not having to change the 1.8L used in the CE, LE and S models. Putting the 1.5L + HSD as the premium powertrain in such a light vehicle woul be the upgrade.
Next year or soon thereafter add the Sienna hybrid and IMO change the Highlander to a 2.4L+HSD hybrid and they have just about accomplished what the goal was of making a hybrid option for every vehicle class.
Smart Key
Better Fuel Economy
Moonroof not required - Save $ and better headroom
LED Tailights
Blue Tinted Headlights
No stabilty/Traction Control option required
Are there others of any consequence that I missed?"
Well, there is the lower emissions, of course!
That Consumer Reports article has some faulty analysis. CR is investigating it now. You can't add in both the price premium AND the increase in depreciation, unless they really are saying the RX400H will be selling for $6300 LESS than the non-hybrid in 5 years, which I don't think is likely. If you take out the faulty variables, the hybrids win, and that is without a gas price hike forecast, I believe. It also isn't accounting for the value of the other features that are included standard with the hybrid models.
I think Toyota is trying to work its hardest to dramatically reduce the cost of Hybrid Synergy Drive. If Toyota can do that and also use the next-generation of lithium-ion batteries that will use far smaller battery packs, I wouldn't be surprised that Toyota might just put the Hybrid Synergy Drive into the Sienna with a year. The smaller battery pack would also make it far easier for Toyota to incorporate HSD into the next-generation Corolla due by this time in 2007.
"Hybrid Feature Advantages
... Moonroof not required - Save $ and better headroom "
H'mm I never heard the lack of a feature, i.e. moonroof, be list as an advantage!
Are you in politics ?
Cheers,
MidCow
P.S.- I think CR reaserached and is aware of exactly what they wrote
The hybrid has a moonroof as an option.
I don't want the moonroof so don't have to pay for a feature that I don't want. That will keep the price closer to the XLE.
That is an advantage!!!!!!!! Think about it!!!
According to the option list on Toyota.com:
http://www.toyota.com/images/vehicles/2007/camry/options.pdf or http://www.toyota.com/images/vehicles/2007/camry/features.pdf
the heated outside mirrors are now optional or included in the "Comfort & Convenience Package" which also includes heating for the seats, but must be purchased with the "Leather Package"
The original press release concerning features listed the heated mirrors as standard:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/presstxt/2007toyotakit/2007CamryHybrid_f.pdf
of course, to Toyota's credit, this initial information was listed as "preliminary."
Such a car would directly compete with the Prius in size. If they produce it, there is no point to the Prius.
In addition if the HSD Corolla came in ~ $18-21000 then the Prius goes from $22-28K and the Camry from $26-31K. This is consistent with the ICE pricing structure.
Anyone could buy a hybrid from $18K all the way up to Avalon territory.
Here's a thread about that CR chart, where they say they're researching the issue.
link title
I defended them at first, too. Now I think they might've really made a mistake.
By Matt Nauman
Mercury News
Consumer Reports now says it made an error when calculating the cost of owning a hybrid: Owners of the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic hybrids do save money, the magazine said today.
Last week, the organization released a statement ahead of its well-read April auto issue, which hit newsstands today, that said owners of the six most popular hybrid vehicles would pay more than buyers of comparable gasoline-only vehicles over their lifetime of ownership.
Late today, however, Consumer Reports issued a statement acknowledging ``a calculation error.''
``We deeply regret the error,'' said Rik Paul, the magazine's automotive editor, said in the statement.
The new calculations show that owners of the Toyota Prius will save $400 and owners of the Honda Civic will save $300 when compared with gasoline-only counterparts. Owners of four other hybrids -- the Honda Accord, Ford Escape, Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX 400h -- will still end up spending $1,900 to $5,500 more during five years of ownership and 75,000 miles, Consumer Reports said.
The initial report surprised Northern California hybrid owners.
``I find that hard to believe,'' Timothy Tsai of San Jose wrote in an e-mail to the Mercury News.
Readers such as John Grebenkemper, who has a doctorate from Stanford University, told Consumer Reports it had made a math error in calculating depreciation.
It really wasn't a "math error in calculating depreciation". They were using third-party depreciation data and just plugging it in wrong as 'costs'.
But I guess you don't have to worry , until they come out with the convertible Camry Hybrid.
Double Sixes cruis'n top down :shades: ,
MidCow
P.S.- I think the upcoming Camry Hybrid is probably the best application of hybrid technology to date. It is the one I would really consider over the HAH and the Prius. Decent performance, good features, good mileage!
Prius will save $400 and owners of the Honda Civic will save $300 when compared with gasoline-only counterparts.
Oh what a sigh of relief, 300 to 400 dollars worth of savings!!! That is what I spend in Starbucks during a month or two. This correction of CR still shows that hybrids make little economic sense.
I hope you don't mean that spending $300-400 more a month, as opposed to saving as much, makes some economic sense.
And then, fuel savings don't have to be strictly a matter of personal economics, almost on the same grounds as getting premium features in any car.
I agree
2) hope you don't mean that spending $300-400 more a month, as opposed to saving as much, makes some economic sense.
Saving $300 to 400 during 5 years or 75k miles of driving does not make economic sense.
In addition my caffeine addiction does not make much economic sense either. In fact my economic argument against hybrids is more justified here in Canada than the USA. Here in Canada there are no generous tax incentives and the cold weather affects the fuel efficiency of hybrids even more than non-hybrids.
My initial order for a hybrid Camry was not really based on economics. My cancellation of my hybrid Camry order was primarily based on economics. We each have our own different priorities and sometimes we ourselves exchange our old priorities(gee-whiz I love the idea of driving a car with HSD technology) with new priorites("Show me the Money"in terms of buying a hybrid)
In fact with the tiny savings involved with hybrids they should have titled the article: Does it make Cents to own a Hybrid
I think that most Americans (the CR target market) are more interested in bang-for-the-buck. Otherwise everyone would already be driving fuel efficient cars.
The Corolla could just as easliy be a 'launch platform'. If a Corolla HSD is offered there won't be a Prius if the Corolla HSD catches on. Or maybe they'll just drop the Prius name and re-badge the Prius as a Corolla... But there is little use for two vehicles of very similar capabilities and size. No auto brand keeps two of the same size. The big three keep similar sizes, but only as different brands (Chevy and Pontiac, for example). But automakers don't put forth two cars that meet similar needs. Bad economics and marketing.
I think the HSD Corolla would be closer to 21K. And who would buy a Prius if one could save 6K on an HSD Corolla, with more conventional styling?
- Cruise along your neighborhood street using electricity only
- Approach that snarled traffic jam knowing that your gas mileage will improve, not go down the tubes
- Benefit from 1 Billion dollars of Toyota research dollars that has finally been distilled into a good looking roomy sedan.
I intended on ordering a loaded vehicle in this segment anyway, and the TCH give me most everything I want in a car for thousands less than the still vaporware '07 Passat turbodiesel! This car is going to be AWESOME!!!!
But the market is so diverse that it can accomodate all the 'appliance' buyers and all the luxury buyers and all the hybrid buyers. To Ford/Honda/Toyota's credit they identified and are mining a small but growing segment of buyers. It's not at all different than when Chrysler identified the minivan segment and made a fortune off it thereby saving themselves.
Good marketing and good product placement.
If a Hybrid Corolla was available back in Nov. I still wouldn't have chosen it because the #1 priority for me was interior room and ride. Any Corolla/Civic is too small for my taste.
TONS of people, apparently. The original Civic hybrid looked just like the standard Civic and didn't sell nearly as well. Prius owners seem to love the fact that their car has unusual styling (quirky and unconventional to some, cool to others).
This issue transcends hybrids. Overly conventional looks in an otherwise unique car can be a bad thing. Quirky and unconventional looks can be a boon to an otherwise boring car (see PT Cruiser). Good marketers know when to go out on a limb and Toyota brilliantly made the right choice with the Prius and would be idiotic not to continue that trend.
The Camry, on the other hand, sells well in part because of it's generally bland inoffensive styling. No this and the previous paragraph are not contradictory. Depends on who you are selling to.
The Camry, on the other hand, sells well in part because of it's generally bland inoffensive styling. No this and the previous paragraph are not contradictory. Depends on who you are selling to.
I don't know if that's entirely true. At least in my case, I prefer a nice mix of form and function. If they would have taken the current ('06) model Camry and made a hybrid version I would not have been a customer.
IMO the '07 Camry successfully departs from the "bland" and "inoffensive" trends of previous models, and appeals to guys like me who like more style, like a more cutting edge look. Of course I'll eat my words 2 years from now when there are 1.2 million Camry's of various ilk on the road....
Bingo, you hit the truth.
A car will always look bland if it is sold in large numbers. The boldest styled car will look bland once every other person in your neighborhood has that same car.
Kudos for Toyota for introducing the much reviled hatchback in the form of the Prius. At least the Prius does not look like any other car. The styling of the Prius will remain bold as long as hatchbacks do not become popular and a Prius is not in every other driveway
The Honda is a different hybrid system, and I think people liked the HSD. A Corolla would use the HSD. I agree that the styling was desired by some, but was a deal killer for others.
We do have to keep in mind that they will have to redesign the Corolla to put the HSD into the platform. The Prius would continue to sell, but the question is - would it sell enough to justify a separate product line with redesigned Corolla HSD?