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Toyota Camry Hybrid

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Comments

  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    No I don't agree. If you will remember, back in the early 80s there were many cars that achieved the same fuel economy that the current hybrids are just now achieving.

    The problem is that is not what people want, ABSOLUTE FUEL ECONOMY!

    Fuel economy is based on weight, driving habits and power plant.

    Europeans have very high gas costs and very few hybrids.

    The most flexible fuel economy is a small diesel engine with a manual transmission in a lightweight car with as few as luxury and other unecessary features as possible. Of course, that is not exactly what people want!

    Hybrids area sacrifice, but not a total sacrifice for the highest mpg or the lowest TCO. Did you realize the average driver could get 0.333 mpg better if they were not overweight :cry:

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    No I don't agree. If you will remember, back in the early 80s there were many cars that achieved the same fuel economy that the current hybrids are just now achieving

    We may be going OT here, but I will let you pick a car from the 1980s, and we will talk further. Are you going to tell me that a Camry from 1980s is comparable to today's and obtained as good fuel economy as the promises from the TCH?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    newt5:

    Concerning the Bently Continental GT here is what Edmunds had to say:

    "One unfortunate aspect of the Continental GT's design is a rather hefty curb weight. Though we certainly don't expect it to be a lithe sports car, the GT does tip the scales at about 5,300 pounds, which is considerably more than what its competitors weigh in at. This bulk, along with the car's forward weight bias, dulls its handling capabilities and limits how much fun a driver can really have. "

    Has your experience been different? Please let us know Normally when you drive a 2 1/2 ton vehicle it wallows like a pig, abiet in this case a pretty fast one!

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    CRX -HF 5-speed
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    But the difference between many and one is......many!

    Come up with two more, that had 4 cylinders, and got a combined 45MPG, EPA (that doesn't mean they actually GOT 45MPG), or more. A 3-cylinder Geo Metro isn't comparable to cars today.

    DrFill
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    CRX HF:
    1.5-liter, 62 HP, 1834 lb, stripped off virtually every little feature could indeed pass for a vehicle that could get you upper 40s. However, does it really compare to the modern cars that we have as hybrids? You could start with Insight... but it would be more logical if we stuck to family sedans that Camry is.

    The 1988 Camry 2.0 I-4 w/5MT (115 HP) was estimated to deliver 26/32 mpg, and the 2.5 V6 w/5MT (153 HP) was at 19/24 mpg.

    Upper 30s for 192 HP midsize that would pass for a near luxury car with a host of safety features is a long way from the old days.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    Electric toys.

    Get a diesel. Oh, the US and Toyota don't make diesels.
  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    Yes, I can use a search engine!!!!!!!!!!

    According to the review by FamilyCar.com, in CA, MA, NY, NJ, VT, ME, NH and RI the hybrid components in the Camry Hybrid will have a 15-year/150,000-mile warranty and its batteries will be covered for 10 years/150,000 miles.

    For the rest of the country these components get an 8-year/100,000 mile warranty.
  • jtdpxjtdpx Member Posts: 19
    I am familiar with the FamilyCar.com reference. There are one or two others. However, when I called Toyota customer service twice on the matter, one time they denied it, the other time they said they had no information on it. Of course, the customer service dept. sometimes, when compared with the internet, is not the first to know about something.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    In excess of 400,000 miles in 4c Camry's....

    4c 2.2L Camry's get about 30-33 mpg at ~ 60 mph day in day out.

    However, in city driving, hwy cruising in heavy traffic at 30 mph or stop and go then the numbers fall in to the 24-26 mpg range.

    Take a weighted average
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Just like all the other hybrids getting the best FE is a matter of using the HSD to the fullest advantage. However for most ( 80%+ ) of drivers where performance is of little concern driving carefully is not any inconvenience and may even be pleasureable.

    OTOH if wanted, despite what the Detroit News writer stated, if one wants to drive a V6 with FE in the low 30's why not. It may not be the most exciting driving experience ever but pushing it to it's V6 limits will still get 30% better FE than any other V6 on the road.

    It's the driver's choice.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The 15Yr 150k mile warranty is on components that are part of the emissions system. To get the CARB AT-PZEV rating you have to give that warranty. List of cars with AT-PZEV rating.

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccvl/2006sulevpzevlist.htm
  • jtdpxjtdpx Member Posts: 19
    Thank you for the info. However, what are the components that are part of the emissions system on the Camry hybrid? There is an inconsistency in the information on the internet: some sources are saying the "hybrid components" of the Camry will be guaranteed for 15 yrs./150,000 miles, but yet the Prius' "hybrid components" are only for 8 hrs./100,000 miles. Why thoughts?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The 8 Yr 80K mile is an EPA mandate on all car emission systems, on cars newer than 1994. I have asked the same questions about hybrid parts as to what is covered under the emissions mandated warranties. California threw in a few more years and a few more miles. It was supposed to guarantee the car would not pollute for it's entire life cycle.

    So what is covered? I hear the hybrid control unit and traction battery. How about the electric motors? Without them you cannot achieve AT-PZEV rating. I would think the Catalytic convertors would be covered. Several Prius owners got a real shock when they had to pay about 2 grand for a new catalytic convertor on cars with less than 100k miles.

    Your guess is as good as mine. I think you are in for a battle on all the sensors that can and do go bad. Those can be $600 a pop to replace. People should budget in an extra grand at least for an extended warranty. Make sure it is not brand X as it may not be any good 5 years from now.
  • jtdpxjtdpx Member Posts: 19
    According to Toyota.com for the Prius: "Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty"...such as in California where it is 10yr./150,000 miles.

    Different sources have said different things about the length of the warranty about the above-referenced "hybrid-related components" of the Camry - i.e., 8yr/100K mi. vs. 15yr./150K mi. It seems that those of the Prius are only 8yr/100K mi. regardless of the State.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The following statement would lead me to believe that the hybrid system would be covered under the AT-PZEV warranty. I would not bet on it though. I know I would try to get the state involved if I was facing a big repair bill on a hybrid. Hybrids are the only vehicles that can get the AT-PZEV rating. Not all hybrids are included.

    Vehicles receiving these credits have near-zero evaporative emissions and their emission control equipment has a 15-year/150,000 mile warranty.

    Vehicles receiving the AT-PZEV credit also make use of "ZEV-enabling" clean technologies such as alternative fuel, electric drives, or other advanced technology systems.

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccvl/2006sulevpzevlist.htm
  • tryckedouttryckedout Member Posts: 1
    hey, i want to get this new car so i can replace my
    2000 Camry CE

    image
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    You need to reread what I said in message #303

    "The most flexible fuel economy is a small diesel engine with a manual transmission in a lightweight car with as few as luxury and other unecessary features as possible."

    Yes the CRX had few features by todays standards and was very lightweight. I had one and it easily got 45 mpg and better.

    The key is more safety features have benn added ( more weight) and more luxury features nad many features now considered standard have been added ( more weight) because people want them and it is competition, if you don't provide the features then your car won't sell.

    Oh Yah the 3 Cylinder Metro Sprint was another high mileage car. And I don't intend to give you two more cars, what is the point ?? Maybe an original Mini, a Covair. Who cares.

    The main point two points are : (1) car weight has gone up significantly (2) people will not buy a car without a lot of features.

    And never did I say they were comparable with cars today EXCEPT in terms of miles per gallon

    Crus'n :shades: ,

    MidCow ( A Hybrid sacrifice is not worth it; mpg savings isn't there)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    See response #320 The question and the only question was mpg ( miles per gallon) not and I repat not equivalnet features.

    Did you know in 1970 they only had AM and reverb and front disc brakes were a brand new feature? No fuel injection, no elctronic ignition, No micropprocessors, No AM, no MD3, no NAV, no leather seats, no power windows, no auto temp, no heated seats, no HIDs, No traction control (well there was anti-spin), no skid control, no ABDS, no rain sensing wipers, no auto lights, only rudamentary hood locks. Of course cars only cost say $6,500 for a fuylly loaded Corvette or $3,500 for a fully loaded Oldsmobile Cutlass 442 muscle car with 4 speed Hurst shifter, 455 cubic Inches and 365 Hp.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at, certainly not comparing cars like 3-cylinder Metro or CRX HF to modern day family sedans like Accord and Camry hybrids, are you?

    I’m with you in that people won’t buy those cars from the 1980s today, for lack of features and safety. Those cars could be light for good reasons, and they don’t exist anymore for good reasons too!

    As for MSRP, MY1990 CRX HF was listed at $9410, and that was a completely stripped down to bare minimums car (check out fuel economy of the same car from the same generation but with more features and more than 62 HP). Inflation calculator translates that MSRP to $14.7K in 2005. That would make it comparable to cars like Fit, but in a more practical package, with a boat load of features. Fuel economy… well, modern cars today cannot afford to use 62 HP engines anymore.

    Your pointer is at diesel over hybrid, isn’t it? Well, we could discuss that in another thread that is more closely related to it. I will say, however, that diesel option doesn’t come for free. It comes with a premium too, and weight penalty as well. Besides, diesel in my area costs about 15-20% more than regular gasoline.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Of course cars only cost say $6,500 for a fuylly loaded Corvette or $3,500 for a fully loaded Oldsmobile Cutlass 442 muscle car with 4 speed Hurst shifter, 455 cubic Inches and 365 Hp."

    Don't forget that beautiful 4 barrel Holley carb...
  • jtdpxjtdpx Member Posts: 19
    This is a response from "Family Car" concerning my question to them about the Warranty Coverage of the new Camry Hybrid:

    "I understand your skepticism. Here is a link that should answer your concerns. http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/faq/index.asp. Click on the first question "How can I choose a car that has fewer emissions?" and read the first paragraph. It will show you who's right. Remember, the warranty is only for cars sold in states that have adopted the California emission standards. Otherwise the warranty is 8 years /100,000 miles for the hybrid components. As for the Prius, that article was written before the law came out. The current Prius should be covered the same as the Camry Hybrid.
    Editor"

    So.....it looks like the Camry and Prius have a 15 yr./150,000 mi. warranty on the hybrid components: battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter. Have not been able to get Toyota to verify, however.
  • newt5newt5 Member Posts: 15
    Ahhh... the use of selective quotes. You pick the worst of the review, so I'll include the entire driving impression.

    Full driving impression from Edmunds:
    "Driving Impressions:
    The Continental GT weighs in at a hefty 5,300 pounds. As one would expect, this mass imparts the car with an aura of solidity. More surprising is that the GT is stable and secure when sent through corners. Much credit goes to the car's adjustable and automatic air suspension system. There is no repeal for the laws of physics, however, and the GT is out of its element when hustled forth on tight and twisty roads. With little drama, the twin-turbo W12 produces tremendous thrust. Braking is similarly effortless with short stops and superb feedback through the pedal."

    You haven't driven it... I have, and other reviews (R&T etc) back up my statement. It aint a boring drive. But this is a Camry discussion board so I'll have this be my last word on the subject.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    In their own preproduction model testing Toyota engineers drove a TCH acorss country for about 4300 mi in various types of driving and averaged 36 mpg combinned. This is exactly what I'd expect a normal hybrid-proficient driver to be able to obtain. It's also consistent with the Prius and HH in that the 'combined' value falls just below the EPA highway value.

    48-49 combined vs 51 Hwy for the Prius
    25-26 combined vs 27 Hwy for the HH

    Also first TCH's should be here in early May...

    Also next hybrid will likely be the Sienna .. next year. Then the remodelled HH, Corolla hybrid and Supra hybrid.
  • mary99mary99 Member Posts: 65
    I get 35mpg overall in my current car- a 97 Civic 4-cyl.

    I was decided on the TCH and I think I'm backing out. I read the 'Prius problems' forum here last night for 30 minutes or so and it terrified me.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    If it's fuel economy and low price ( or zero price if you keep your Civic ) that are key to your decision then the TCH is not a good decision.

    A better choice might be a Certified Civic/Corolla from say 2001 or so where you could buy it for under $10K and still get 10+ great reliable years from it.

    The Prius problems are often 'emphasized for effect' let's say. For balance you might pose some of those concerns on GreenHybrid or Priuschat to get another viewpoint. I sold them for 5 yrs before getting one last Nov. Nothing to regret at 10K mi in 4 months.. I'll keep you posted.
  • mary99mary99 Member Posts: 65
    Thanks, kdh. Cost isn't the factor. I'm planning on spending around $32k this time, and I spend a lot of time in my car and want something nicer this time. And my hybrid decision was as much to support the technology and help the environment as it was to save on fuel costs. No, make that more. And I know the Prius has excellent reliability. I've just had so many people tell me lately "Wait a few more years", including (usually) car salesman. And reading some of those Prius stories was eye-opening. I do imagine that every Prius problem (and then some) was described on there, though. ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I believe some of it might be hyperventilation because it seems to get highest satisfaction and reliability numbers from several sources, CR, Intellichoice and one other I think.

    It's also the experience it seems from my 'pioneering' customers.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Mary99,

    $32K to spend. I have the perfect car for you a Honda S2000 convertible :shades:

    MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Njerald,

    I would put too much faith in FamilyCar.com Wait until the actual 2007 Camry hybrid is realized if the exact warranty period and terms is of concern. Also, about battary warranty, some earlier hybrids are just now starting to have declining batteries. By delining, I mean they are not working as new, but have not failed enough to qualify for replacement. Equate it to a rechargeable battery, that not longer holds it charge very long and has to be recharged all of the time. There is going to be a lot of contriversy aboout battery repalcement.; one module, all modules, all modules plus the battery electronics, etc. Unless you keep cars a long time (over 7years), then battery issues sohuldn't be a hybrid make or break decision. However, realize that if you don't keep your car at least 7 years, you probably won't recover your hybrid premium in gas saving. That is unless the governements latest push to force stations to use Ethanol enhance gas takes place and adds another 25 cents a gallon to the gas prices.

    Cheers,

    MidCow (unable to make the Hybrid sacrifice at this time :cry: )

    P.S.- NOtice they refer to the "lethagic Prius"
  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    I'm going to order an XLE, save $4,500-5,500 and not worry about suppositions.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If the hybrid craze lasts, in 10-15 years you can trade that fine XLE in on a TCH. By then we will know the reality of hybrid longevity.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Njerald: Good Choice 2007 Camry XLE

    Gagprice: In 10-15 years , I will be driving my tribrid solar/eletric/diesel/ FUV (Fuel Utility Vehicle) :P

    Remember Hybrid is the current knee jerk reaction to high oil prices, just as turbo and retrofited diesel was in the late 70's. But remember back then the Big three were king and imports were tiny, tiny players. In 10-15 years the big three won't be American anymore even though they will have American factories.

    Just remember how Myoptic railroads and telegraph operators were in their day :confuse:

    Cheer,

    MidCow

    P.S.- Dod I mention the tribrid FUVs will offer manual shift and will get in excess of 100 mpg!
  • mary99mary99 Member Posts: 65
    Perfect except for I have no desire for sporty, have a 5-year-old, need a comfy, quiet car, and hate wind in my hair! :P (I don't even want a moonroof! LOL )
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Mary99:

    Okay , cool ! How important is mileage and TCO (Total Cost of Ownership)? is that why your are looking at 2007 Camry Hybrid ?

    There are a bunch of other options for 32K?

    Quiet,Luxury, reliaiblity

    Camry XLE
    Avalon XLS
    Lexus ES 330
    Lexus IS 250
    Honda Accord EX
    Acura TL
    Acura TSX
    Prius

    Good Luck,

    MidCow
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    If you thought turbos were result of knee jerk reaction in the 1970s, you may want to see how much advancement has been made in that area, and virtually ALL diesel engines today are turbo charged, and turbos in gasoline have not gone out of fashion either. As a matter of fact, it is gaining grounds.

    If you drew a parallel between turbo and hybrid, then you could expect hybrid technology to improve considerably. Besides, the greatest drawback of the hybrid technology today is energy storage (NOT, having an electric motor to go with gasoline/diesel). And that issue is more widespread than the realms of hybrid vehicles.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Also next hybrid will likely be the Sienna .. next year. Then the remodelled HH, Corolla hybrid and Supra hybrid.

    Supra hybrid?? I don't think so. Hybrid and supercar do not mix, that goes double for the Supra, given the value that name holds in the racing world.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    XLE 4c or 6c? Likely the TCH will be $2-4K less than the XLE 6c, sans leather.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You've already seen the prototype on Toyota's website. There are several threads and hints that it might be the Celica replacement but called the Supra.

    But this info is only from Toyota itself so I too will wait and see.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    The premium for HSD is more than it is going from I-4 to V6. Unless TCH offers a lot fewer features than XLE/V6, it won't carry a lower price tag (and in that case, it makes little sense to compare XLE/V6, just compare it to LE/V6).
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    aviboy97,

    I have heard their will be a Supra hybrid that will uphold the Supra name and reputation. In spite of the "lethargic Toyota Prius" note 1 for reference. Just look at how Toyota is employing HSD technology in the GS450h : http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=109609 (Lexus says the 450h will accelerate from zero to 60 mph in 5.2 seconds and get up to 28 mpg).

    Double Sixes :shades: ,

    MidCow

    note 1: http://familycar.com/RoadTests/ToyotaCamry/
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Huh? run that by me again.

    The 'standard' version of the TCH is roughly equivalent to the 4c XLE in features but with 192 hp and 36 mpg combined likely. Likely price ~$27000 vs $25060 for the XLE. I'm going to go out on a limb and estimate that 4/5 TCH's are like this, possibly with leather.

    The 'loaded' TCH version IMO, ( Leather, sunroof, Navi ) is roughly equivalent to the V6 XLE. Likely price ~$32000 vs $31500 for the XLE.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    What makes you believe that Toyota is going to charge only $2K for HSD? Expect at least $3500 in premium, that will push it above XLE/V6 at base (before adding options) UNLESS, and like I said earlier, the features are more comparable to LE trim.

    BTW, a loaded (leather, moonroof, side airbags, side curtain airbags, stability control) equipped Camry XLE/I-4 runs close to $28K (that is more than the base price for XLE/V6). And this is before you throw in HSD to a fully equipped model. Add NAV to loaded TCH, and the MSRP is likely to top out around $33K.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    robertsmx:

    I'm with Kdhspyder on this one. He works for Toyota and a very knowledgeable person about the Prius and other toyota hybrids.

    I think time will prove that Kdhspyder prices are spot-on.

    Cheers,

    MidCow Harbor Master
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I believe my "build" price estimate for loaded TCH comes to about $33K, not too far off kdhspyder's. At the "base" end, I'm assuming XLE/I-4 price ($25K) plus whatever HSD costs (About $3.5K). We shall see.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    See my post on 12-6 #850 on the Camry 2007 thread. I'll stick by $27000 for a 'standard' TCH before adding options. I could be wrong but I dont think so. I think this is why it will be a roaring success. It will be priced about the same as the Prius but with V6 power and more room.

    $27000 standard .. 6 disc 440 watt, BT, SKS, cloth, VDIM
    Then add:
    $1000 Sunroof
    $1200 Leather
    $1500 Navi

    $27000 puts it about $2000 above a similarly equipped 4c XLE but below the V6 XLE.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I find it hard to believe that Hybrid will cost only $2K more than a comparably equipped XLE/I-4. But then, I've always been a difficult person to deal with as a visitor at a dealership. :D
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    From comments yesterday by Toyota reps the costs are already well within the range of a typical 'powertrain' upcharge. 4c + $2K for a V6 or +$2K for a hybrid.

    The buyer now has a choice of ..
    a. 268 hp V6 performance engine w/ combined FE values in the high 20's
    b. 192 hp 'V6' system w/ combined FE values in the high 30's

    Both about the same price level.
  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    That's because they are not comparably equipped!!!

    Base XLE 4-cyl. will have retractable rear sunshade, Alarm, Tachometer, Moonroof, Fog lights, Wood Trim, Reclining Back Seats, Power Passenger Seat, Illum. Visor Mirrors, REAR reading lights and a 35% bigger trunk.

    The base Hybrid will have Smart key, VDIM, LED Tailights, Blue tinted Headlights and an economy meter.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    mid: (Lexus says the 450h will accelerate from zero to 60 mph in 5.2 seconds and get up to 28 mpg).

    me: about the same mpg as a Vette; I believe the actual Edmund's achieved was 22mpg, and almost as fast. Not bad for a 4,200 car. My 3,800Lb 4-speed auto Firebird (with performance gearing) will do about the same, getting 25 mpg combined on mostly 2-lane rural highway. :)

    So the Lexus might have some incremental improvement.
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