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Comments
Is there close to $2700 between invoice and MSRP as on an XLE-4Cyl?
p.s. And to capture some of the recent comments: this is a great car despite the fact that 1) the trunk is a bit small 2) we might have to pay around MSRP 3) it weighs a bit more than a conventional 4cyl XLE Camry and 4) it might take 7.249 years to pay back the hybrid option (LOL)
p.p.s. and for those of us that see a good thing for what it is - and don't complain about some subtleties or about how dang long it takes to return on our investment, cheers to a longer life, and more satisfaction in general and greater happiness from the cards (or cars) we've been dealt!!
In the latest advertisement for the Hybrid Accord I saw it now gets now a " bountiful 25 city / 34 highway", down from the 29 city / 37 highway on the KBB web site.
Why the changes?
Gampa.
Having said that, I have seen no MPG numbers in the 25/34 range as indicated in the post. For info -- where did you see them?
Gampa
My sales rep emailed me the Canadian prices for the hybrid Camry and it is fantastically priced.
The base price hybrid Camry will cost only about $600 more than a base price Prius. IMO the Camry is priced in a way that makes it a compelling choice when compared to a Prius(Camry hyrbid at MSRP CDM$31.9K versus the Prius MSRP of CDN$ 31.3K) . Now if only my wife and I can live with the cargo space
Say it costs $2000 for the Hybrid part.
...if things stay the same, chances are it would take 7 to 8 years to recover your costs... but it won't take that long.
In the last 6 years gas has gone up from $.99 to $2.59 today... and chances are it will go up even further so the recoup time will shorten.
If it does not go up... for the next 7 -8 years you save money each time you fill up... and this would make you feel good.
But the thing that people overlook is that when you sell your Hybrid at the end... chances are you will recoup your 2000 dollars... if not more...
example:
In 2000 VW sold their diesels for about 1100 more the gas model... today the same diesels sell for $2100 more then the gas model therfore recouping the original $1100 + $1000 Profit + the gas saving over the last 6 six years.
I feel this is a better picture for recapture
That is why I will purchase the Camry Hybrid when it comes out in May.
Gampa.
What if you are buying a 185-192 hp midsized sedan first and foremost.
List all the vehicles with this horsepower and combined fuel economy above 30 mpg ( and just for kicks for less than $30K )
1. 2007 Hybrid Camry
end of list
Also, does anybody know how to find out how many hybrids Toyota has sold at the end of this first quarter, as it has a bearing on the tax credit.
Otherwise, I may have to go the Accord Hybrid route although I like the Camry Hybrid better as it will have plenty of power for me, much better fuel economy and I like its looks better.
Thanks.
So figuring out whether you get the 100% or 50% tax credit is rather trivial. A purchase after July 1 will be 50%. Before, you still get the full 100%.
JOHN
Accord Hyrid? In my opinion, not worth the money compared with Camry XLE v6 with better performace. Camry SE v6 got 26.3mpg from recent R&T test.
I still think the first TCHs will appear in May, but then again I'm #2 on a waiting list that has 16 people on it so far....with each of us putting $1000 down. [And if predictions are correct with 2-3 TCHs per month per dealer that would put the last folks on the waiting list into the end of '06.]
BTW the Ocala FL dealership (DeLuca Toyota) has a policy to charge, at most, MSRP. No added premium that other dealerships are adding. So maybe that's why the waiting list is so long.
Here in Toronto I am dealing with a sales rep who can order a hyrbid Camry today at MSRP and have it deliverd by May.
No problemo. No excuses. In otherwords no dealing with money-grubbing sales reps in my case.
During 1998 I wanted to buy a VW Beetle TDI when it was very hot. A sales rep told me I had to wait 6 to 8 months for delivery and I had to order big $$$ of options to make the order worthwhile. I walked away and phoned the VW dealer himself and I had reported the incident. The dealer apologized profusely and told me that I can have a Beetle TDI(no options) delivered within 2 to 3 months.
I dont know how Toyota deals with such incidences but I was impressed with how the VW dealer dealt with my problem.
I still cant believe that in Canada the base MSRP Camry hybrid= MSRP Prius. That to me is compelling value. I just may order one despite my prior complaints.
Prius is overpriced in Canada. If Toyota Canada continue selling Prius in Canada there will have to be an adjustment. That adjustment may not be in price it may be in standard equipment.
With all due respect, I believe you are wrong. People who buy in the quarter AFTER the 60,000 is reached will still get 100% of the tax rebate. Therefore, if 60,000 is reached by June, the full tax rebate will still be good through September 30, 2006. This has been stated numerous times to this effect on various web sites.
You stated in Post 551 the following from Road & Track:"
"Pacific coast highway: 46.5mpg
Rush hours: 32.3mpg
Mountaineeing/high-speed fwy: 38.3mpg
BTW,
0-60mph 7.3s
1/4mile 15.6s"
Where did you get that information? The current edition of Road & Track does not have it, nor does, I believe, the previous edition. Thanks!
Toyota/Lexus counts will be easy to determine. Ford/Mercury will be a much tougher call. Honda has always been wishing-washing about sharing exact counts, so who knows with them. GM should be interesting, especially with the monster PR muscle the often flex.
JOHN
Seems like the dealers that are charging a premium are in the bigger cities. One in Tampa had a LE4 marked up $2000!!
Salesman had just been to some kind of class on the TCH, and said then that it would be here in June. And he seemed the methodical and conservative type, so maybe that's worst case scenario. But I'm hoping for May, at this point don't care what color, but do want it loaded.
And I'd like a set of SE rims on it.
Can't wait!!
May is the correct timeframe for dealers normally selling hybrids. Surcharges are entirely possible in certain markets. It's definitely a local phenomenon.
The question was posed about the 'hybrid premium' on the new TCH.
So theoretically he should know something this month about impending TCHs? Now that would be a nice surprise....
What he said is correct since the inventory and allocated vehicles are about 30 days out, maybe a little more.
Yes the Prius is over-priced and the hybrid Camry is under-priced. There are very few Japanese or European cars with a Canadian MSRP premium over the US MSRP that is under 23 percent.
The hybrid Camry is definitely compelling value in Canada independent of what the Canadian Prius price is.
So what you are saying is that money grubbing among local Toyota dealers is tolerated by Toyota USA? What does that say about Toyota USA?
I know when VW introduced the Beetle in 1998 and there were long waiting lists their policy was NO SURCHARGES! And VW dealers and reps were accountable if they broke that policy. Is there no such accountability at Toyota USA??
I have been on long waiting lists for every car I bought so far and I have never paid surcharges.( every model I buy tends to be hot seller). I guess that reflects my good taste in cars.
In the recent past there have been sometimes huge ADM's on..
-the new Corvette now there is a $25000 ADM on it;
-Solstice, Sky
-PT Cruiser in the Past
-SSR ( foolish )
-the new Mustangs
-the Gen2 Prius' in SoCal
It's only a way to balance out the supply and the demand. Often the ADM or addendum is specifically the way the dealer indicates that he doesn't want to sell the item.
An example, a store will get one TCH a month ( likely scenario ) until full production kicks in later in the year. He knows now that people are asking about it and want to drive one. The first comes in and a buyer says, 'Great, I'll take it today' and drives it away. All the others come in a little later that day and ask 'Where's the TCH?' .. 'Gone..come back next month - but be first.'
ADM's on new models often are just a way to keep a vehicle on the lot in the beginning to allow the greatest number of people to see it. Now if someone says 'Screw it I will pay $25000 over sticker, I just want it.' Oh well.
Then there are other deeper legal/commercial issues to consider if the manufacturers got involved at the local level.
Went to two local dealerships this weekend and asked salesman directly but got vague indirect responses ("we sell a lot") from both of them. Neither is taking deposits, just names.
MSRP was quoted at one. Both said they didn't think they could get what I wanted this year (loaded except no sunroof [need to accommodate very tall passenger]). I am not flexible on the sunroof because I need the extra 1.5 inches of headroom. This was discouraging.
I thought if I went to a high-sales dealership, they would have a better chance of getting a bigger allocation and also requesting cars matching their pre-orders if those cars are on the region's TVO list or whatever you call it.
LA and SoCal, Bay area, Las Vegas, DC/NoVa/Md, Boston, Fla, Houston
Not only is it policy, in Canada it is the law. A dealer may not charge more than MSRP in Canada. Of course that doesn't prevent them charging $2000 for (compulsory) pinstriping, or driving it for 2km and then selling it used for $5000 over MSRP.
all i can say is wow.
It's the same technology in all three and the same testing parameters.
There's a simple way to deal with this problem (regardless of what coutry or region you're in). If there's a surcharge that you think is unfair- DON'T BUY THE CAR. but consider this... if people are paying these prices, then you have to consider that maybe (for that particular time frame), the surcharge is reasonable.
Imagine if EVERYBODY who wanted a TCH said, "I like the car, but I don't want to pay the extra, so I will not buy it at this price and at this time." I guarantee the price surcharge would magically disapear. But obviously there are those who disagree with that statement and WANT to bid up the price. (anyone try to buy an xbox360 last year?) During the prius used car frenzy a few years ago, do you think it would have been fair to the private party sellers to cap their selling cost to "national depreciation averages?"
My opinion is that canadian law actually HURTS the consumer because the dealer finds a loophole and your stuck with some gaudy pinstriping or stuck buying a used car at new car prices.
If it's a hot item the pricing will remain firm.
38 mpg combined is impressive. However, the Camry V6 model that featured in Edmunds' recent road test (comparison) yielded only 20.4 mpg... that is a 30% differential in fuel economy. More road tests are needed for a better conclusion.
AW got 38 MPG.
R&T got 38MPG.
TAC got 37 MPG.
DrFill
Hybrids have opened up a whole new era of false advertising that is protected by the Federal Government.
May be once the revised EPA standards go in effect. They are expected to bring down the fuel economy ratings for non-hybrids as well by 10-20%
Hybrids, or not, they get rated under a standard. It is a standards issue, not hybrid.
What is TAC?
That is Great mileage in a Camry.
I get 28 mpg with the 2.3l engine in my Suzuki Aerio
Hope that helps.
We could also look at (Edmunds' latest family sedan comparo) and see Accord V6 getting an observed 21.6 mpg while EPA estimates put it at 20/29 mpg. Camry V6 got an observed 20.4 mpg while EPA estimates are 22/31 mpg. So, technically, both cars should be doing better than they did. Of course, and I'm sure, testers typically push the cars a lot more, but then, I also assume they compensate with some stretches of highway driving.
Gagrice
Are you talkin' to me?
If final EPA numbers are 40/38, and the car scores 38 twice, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.
The Escape Hybrid did a great job in the R&T test, but being only FWD adds a small asterisk, as this saves 2-300 lbs., and compromises the rational behind buying an SUV for 30k in the first place. You can get the same functionality from a $14k Scion xB! And get similar performance and economy.
DrFill
"MT got 31MPG.
AW got 38 MPG.
R&T got 38MPG.
TAC got 37 MPG."
It should be noted that MT (Motor Trend) got 40 MPG doing 70 MPH. The 31 MPG (I believe it was actually 31.5) was pure city.
TAC (The Auto Channel) was mostly highway, some city.
R&T/AW: What combination of highway/city were they?
Lastly, who is "AW?"
I agree with you kinda of. Take for example GMC, they overprice vechicles so much that the have to discount then 10 of thousands of dollars. For example if you didn't pay at least $10,000 under MSRP for your 2005 GMC Sierra 1500 then you in effect paid ADM to GM.
In MSRP the S stands for suggested, It doesn't mean that is is always a good value proposition.
Cheers,
MidCow