What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

boaz47 · August 2006

here I have to agree with andre. When the consumer turned from small cars it was well over what we had before small cars. Nothing made in the 60s or 70s can compare to a Escalade or Navigator. We never even dreamed of a Luxury pickup like a caddy or Lincoln. No one had to lead or encourage or pass legislation to get them to buy bigger they just did, out of pure preference.

british_rover · August 2006

1978 Impala sold more vehicles in one year then any other vehicle in history.

boaz47 · August 2006

How many was that?

nippononly · August 2006

it was 450,000 annual sales, apparently.

Check out this guy's '78 Impala. He has done A LOT of work on it.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2138447

I had a friend whose mom had one of these - I rode in it a few times. It kinda defines my mental image of 70s American cars, along with another friend's mom's 1980ish Cutlass.

boaz47 · August 2006

that is a lot of cars. Not like the 700,000 to 900,000 units of F-series trucks but the F-series comes in a lot of configurations so maybe that is why?

logic1 · August 2006

BMW is apparently going to make a smaller roadster, dubbed the Z2. Looks as though it will share the Mini's new 4 cyl. engines.

Miata and Sky/Solstice will have some European competition after all.

tjw1308 · August 2006

Hmmm a Z2 eh?

*Waits to see if it has center mounted guages so he can hear about how "cool" they are... because it's a BMW and not a Toyota...*

:P

T

logic1 · August 2006

Actually, I thought people mocked the ION for center guages but said Toyota was brilliant.

I doubt the Z2 will have center guages. Not a BMW thing. The MINI does because MINIS always did.

boaz47 · August 2006

was the early minis had a completely transverse motor. Even the radiator was mounted next to the left front tire and wheel well.

iluvmysephia1 · August 2006

center-mounted guages? Did I read that correctly? If that's true why then do people belly-ache over Scion's xA and Toyota's Yaris having center-mounted guages?

If the Mini-Cooper has them it's OK or even cool?

Toyota uses center-mounted guages to save money. And, even though I don't think they're cool, they are kind of unique. Different. They are kind of artsy-fartsy, that's what they are!

Just picture Barbra Wa-Wa with those caring eyes staring at the camera saying "Ahhhh-tt-sszzy Faaa-hhhh--ttt-sss-zzz-yyy!"

Mr_Shiftright · August 2006

MINI---hmmmm....engine by Renault, owned by BMW, built in Britain....that sounds pretty scary.

I like the center mounted gauges now that I've lived with them. Gauges in front of me now seem very annoying...too much information right in my face. I like to glance at the gauges furtively out of the corner of my eye like John Wayne did in "Flying Tigers".

iluvmysephia1 · August 2006

haaw-haaw! shifty, you crack me up!

Funny thing is, during my 2006 Scion xA test drive I adjusted to the center-mounted guages so quickly that it was kind of scaring me.

If your bike had inverted handlebars would you not grab on to them? Or would you grab on to them even if they were turned inside out?

I don't know about you but I will grab on to them no matter what shape they are. My point is that I turn my eyes to look at the speedometer and the tach often. I found that my eyes went right to the center guages in the xA and then they went to the steering wheel mounted stereo controls. That's why I kept turning up the volume on the stereo when I really wanted to change to another FM station!

Do I feel like the 2006 Scion xA is dangerous to drive with guages mounted up front and center? No way! I adjusted to them like Gary Payton to a fresh Michael Jordan during the NBA Finals. Like Gary on Mike. iluv on xA. Donald Trump on...ummm...hairpieces...yeah, like that Pittsburgh referee on his penalty flag dropped during last year's Super Bowl against the Seattle Seahawks for no reason...I...I mean for really good reason. That guy should get in to rap music, or something on the up and up like that. Huh?

tjw1308 · August 2006

I know :P

I'm just poking fun at the outrage over center guages... It's ridiculous to me that people seem to think they ruin a car. To hear some talk about them it's as if their eyes were being gouged out having to glance a little to the right lol.

I suppose if that's the main thing people want to point out as a "problem" with my Yaris, I have a pretty flawless car all things considered

T

snakeweasel · August 2006

Yeah but don't forget that at one time (somewhere in the 20's) half the cars sold were Ford Model T's.

logic1 · August 2006

Some people are just resistant to change, I suppose.

If done well (curved toward driver, placed in easy line of sight) I like some of the others here actually prefer center mount guages.

In fact, the ION, Yaris and a few others have center mount guages that are somewhat easier to view than on the Mini.

The Mini goes for that 1960s look. It is cool when you are admiring it, but takes a little getting used to when driving. On the other hand, the Toyota and Saturn guages are perfectly natural in my opinion.

(I only had my Mini rental for a day in LA. Possibly after a couple of days you adjust completely and this is not an issue)

snakeweasel · August 2006

The issue I have with the center mounted gages is that they are to high up. Yes I admit it I am getting old :sick: and with that I end up wearing bifocals

. Now the trouble I have is that the gauges are to close for the upper area of my glasses so if I look at them through that part they appear somewhat fuzzy, but they look sharp and clear through the bottom part.

Now with traditionally mounted gages they sit a little lower and therefor all I have to do is look down without moving my head to see them through the lower part of my specs. But with the higher center mounted gages to look at them without moving my head I see them through the top part. So to read the gages clearly I need to tilt my head up. I rather not have to move my head to see the gages.

logic1 · August 2006

Well, that is fair. As it is not an issue for me, I had not thought about it.

Maybe the designers need to have bifocal and other glasses wearing participants when they work out placement of guages.

andre1969 · August 2006

Actually, 1978 wasn't a record year for the Impala. There were a few years in the 60's where the Impala nameplate alone accounted for over a million sales! That's just the Impala. Caprice, Biscayne, and Bel Air sales were counted separately.

By the 70's, GM combined Biscayne/Bel Air/Impala/Caprice sales and just called the total "Chevrolet". I think the reason they did this was because the competition was getting into the habit of just having one big car name in varying trim levels, instead of 3 or 4 different names. For instance, Plymouth had gone to a Fury I, Fury II, Fury III, Fury VIP, and Sport Fury designation back around 1965, matching the Chevy's Biscayne/Bel Air/Impala/Caprice/Impala SS. At one time Ford had a lineup that went something like Custom/Galaxie/LTD, but by the 70's they were overwhelmingly LTD's.

For some reason though, Pontiac always kept the Bonneville and Catalina separate.

Anyway, in 1977, when the downsized GM cars came out, Chevy moved something like 650-700K units. For the first time in history though, they sold more Caprices than Impalas, evidence of American's growing tastes for more luxurious cars. In '78 I believe they sold about the same amount of units, but I forget what the Impala/Caprice breakout was. Then for '79 I think they dipped to about 500K, and in 1980 down to something like 250-300K.

At Pontiac the same thing happened. In the past, the Catalina usually outsold the Bonneville by a wide margin, but for 1977 I think they only sold about 60,000 Catalinas, compared to about 150,000 Bonnevilles.

I think the Caprice/Impala was the top selling model in 1978, though. I remember reading that the downsized 1978 Malibu wasn't considered the smash hit that the B-body was, although I think GM managed to move about 400,000 of them. The Monte Carlo was popular though, with about 400,000 sold. I think the Nova was still pretty popular in '78, although GM blurred the lines between compact and midsize this year with the Malibu, and there was increasing competition from Ford and Chrysler in this area. The Chevette was increasing in popularity every year, peaking I believe in 1980 or 1981, with about 450,000 sales.

The Olds Delta 88 and Cutlass Supreme were wildly popular cars, as well. The Pontiac Grand Prix was also a strong seller. So was the Buick Regal.

Ford's heavy hitters in '78 were mainly the Thunderbird and Fairmont, although the Granada was selling decently and the big LTD's, while swamped by the Caprice/Impala, were still strong sellers. And the Pinto, reviled and poked at today, was still a strong seller.

Chrysler was in its tailspin into oblivion in '78, and probably saw most of its sales strength in the Aspen/Volare, which were losing favor with the buyers. The Omni/Horizon found favor with economy-minded buyers, and the LeBaron/Diplomat sold fairly well in these early years. And oddly, the Cordoba was still selling decently. None of these cars came anywhere near their GM competition in sales though, unless you compared a Dodge Diplomat to a Pontiac LeMans, maybe.

reddroverr · August 2006

The biggest reason in my book is to limit the amount of oil we have to import.

Contributes to the trade deficit (a full 1/3 of it). This weakens our economy.

Gives money and therefore power to our enemies.

Other than initial price, I can't see much reason to go with a tiny car over a small car, if the mileage is similar.

tjw1308 · August 2006

Finally someone with a VALID negative about center guages!

THAT I can agree with. Never thought of that one

.

Somehow I doubt the majority of the whiney folk out there have the "BiFocal Issue" though

...

Good point never the less.

T

tsgeisel · August 2006

My negative about center gauges is that I just don't like them. It's a valid negative because it's *my* opinion. :-)

Anyway, I've test driven both the Scion and the Ion, and what I prefered about the Ion is that the guages there aren't flat-on to the front, but angled slightly for the driver, so you're more likely to get a direct look at them, rather than looking at them at an angle.

But it still bothered me to have all that lack of information right down in front of me.

snakeweasel · August 2006

My negative about center gauges is that I just don't like them. It's a valid negative because it's *my* opinion.

Thats as valid as people saying that they like them, its just an opinion.

boaz47 · August 2006

I just find it ironic that on the one hand we wine like little girls about people being distracted by having to look over at a GPS screen or Radio dial or even a Idrive screen. The bitching goes on for posts after post and then when someone moves the whole cluster away from the line of site it is OK? Consistency would be nice. I happen to believe than people can multi task while driving. And if they have a automatic they can multi task even more but that is just me. Some people can't drive and chew gum but that is another debate.

british_rover · August 2006

The MINI only has Center mounted guages if you don't have Navigation.

Even then only the speedo, gas guage and temp gauge are in the center.

The tach and all of the warning lights are right behind the steering wheel. When I had my MINI I actually got used to glancing at the speedo from time to time and after a while I just learned with RPM converted to what speed in what gear.

3000 rpms in 6th gear was around 70 mph.

nippononly · August 2006

Are you challenging the almighty Automotive News here? They are the ones reporting that Impala's sales peak of 450K in (calendar) 1978 is the record for sedan sales. Note they did specify sedans, and single model nameplate.

boaz: "Some people can't drive and chew gum but that is another debate."
Others just can't drive, period, eh? ;-)

british rover: so the two most commonly referenced ones (among non-racers), speed and gas, are in the center then. And the speed is down low in the center, where viewing it will definitely cause one to look away from the road momentarily.

british_rover · August 2006

Oh no the speedometer is right in the center and probably about 8 inches across.

Everyone knows how fast you are going.

The fuel and water temp are down in the lower quarters of the speedo circle.

There is a picture of the tach.

iluvmysephia1 · August 2006

located in a good and natural position, I could get used to those easily.

The thing is, on my xA test drive my eyes scatted ever so quickly to the center to read the speedo and tach in a jiffy-spiff as I drove. The X-factor for me was the steering wheel-mounted audio controls. I mixed up the stereo volume with the stereo FM tuner! And I did that quite easily. That would be fixed within a week or two by just being irritated at making the same mistake over and over again. It would take care of itself eventually.

There just isn't that much space there-in any car, for the guage placement to be a problem. No?

In fact, even in a "large" car or truck or SUV there isn't all that much space inside a rig. In fact, the space inside an xA isn't that much tighter than inside the cabin of a, oh, let's say a Hyundai Sonata. We're not talking degrees by feet we're talking degrees by inches, my friends.

So, looking at center guages in that respect really turns it into a non-issue, for me. If you have a sight problem with the center mounted-guages then by all means you should not buy a car with center mounted-guages. Ci?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2006

for what it's worth.

I'm borrowing a friend's BMW 3 Series for a week and I can state that the xA has more room for the driver.

kyfdx · August 2006

I hear the xA gets better fuel mileage, as well...

Mr_Shiftright · August 2006

Yeah but the Bimmer is faster. Ouch! My right calf is really sore from being scrunched up against the console and my head knocks against the roof on bumpy right turns.

andre1969 · August 2006

Are you challenging the almighty Automotive News here? They are the ones reporting that Impala's sales peak of 450K in (calendar) 1978 is the record for sedan sales. Note they did specify sedans, and single model nameplate.

Okay, I glossed over the part about it being calendar year sales in 1978, which would include part of the 1979 model year. And I also didn't pick up on the part about it being just sedans. So it's conceivable that Chevy ran off about 450K Impala/Caprice sedans in 1978. I can almost guarantee they were combining Impala/Caprice totals by then, though. But then, I guess breaking out the Impala from the Caprice is really kinda like breaking out the Camry LE from the Camry SE/XE/XLE

As for center-mounted gauges, I don't like them, but I'm also not used to them. I'm guessing that once you get used to them they're probably easy to get along with? Also, the only cars that use center-mounted gauges are usually small ones anyway, so they shouldn't be that far out of your line of sight. It wouldn't be as bad as putting center-mounted gauges in a full-sized pickup!

crimsona · August 2006

The Nissan X-trail in Canada has center gauges. Compact SUV and rising...

british_rover · August 2006

It is much much cheaper to do center gauges then left or right hand side. I am sure over the production run of a vehicle it saves a truly world manufcaturer millions of dollars.

andre1969 · August 2006

what year is this 3-Series? I remember the older ones being horribly cramped, something akin to a leather-clad Chevette. Last time I rode in a 3- was maybe late 2003, when a buddy of mine bought a new one. I was actually impressed at how roomy it was, up front at least. Seemed to have plenty of stretch-out room. Back seat was non-existent. And the footwells were kinda narrow as I recall. Deep but narrow. I didn't hit my head on anything, but I do remember having the seatback fairly reclined.

FWIW, I think the EPA still classifies the 3-series as a subcompact, so according to them it's in the same league as the xA. But then, I think the EPA also classifies some Rolls Royce models as subcompacts! :P

british_rover · August 2006

At one point the XK8 was classified as a subcompact. Tell me that is a joke.

nippononly · August 2006

Yes, you get used to the center-mount gauges after five minutes, and from then on they are easy to get along with. What I have NOT gotten used to is something specific to the Echo and a few of the cheaper Yarii now: no tach.

That is by no means a "subcompact thing", as all the other cars in the class have standard tachs. Toyota just cheaped out to save a few bucks. :mad:

boaz47 · August 2006

If the XK8 is a sub compact then I withdraw all my reservations about sub compacts.

jlawrence01 · August 2006

No tach ...

I think that I have had one tach in all of my cars. You usually have to have a sports package to have one of those things, don't you ???

british_rover · August 2006

At one time it was classfied as one because of the relatively small size and small boot. Only the standard wheel base model though not the Vanden Plas.

andre1969 · August 2006

to get classified as a subcompact, a car merely has to have an interior volume (passenger cabin + trunk) of 85-99 cubic feet. Doesn't matter how long, wide, tall, or heavy the car itself actually is.

So in theory you could have a car with, say, 60 cubic feet of front seat area (a very decent-sized full-sized car), 30 cubic feet of back seat (probably about what a BMW 6-series coupe has), and 9 cubic feet of trunk space (what a Suzuki Reno has) and you'd end up with a very roomy 2-seater that's classified as a subcompact! Many cars with token back seats end up getting classified as a subcompact.

Here's how the EPA determines their size classes: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#sizeclasses

wale_bate1 · August 2006

My experience is that people like to believe they can multi-task...

:sick:

andre1969 · August 2006

with tachs...an '88 LeBaron and an '00 Intrepid. Everything else has been fairly big and hulking, where you'd get your peak torque around 1600-2400 rpm, peak hp from 3200-4800 rpm, a maximum safe rev speed of about 5500 rpm, and 3-speed automatic transmissions that did their darndest to keep the engines anywhere from peak hp, let alone redline! I think if I could force my '79 New Yorker to go into first at about 60 mph, it *might* push the revs up to about 4600 rpm!

None of those old cars had any need for a tach, but I think it would've been cool to have. And even with the LeBaron and Intrepid having automatic transmissions, I guess there's still no true need for one...but I still like having one. With a car that has a stick shift though, especially the smaller high revving ones where it's easy to get up to the redline, you'd think they'd be mandatory.

boaz47 · August 2006

Even my trucks have had a tach for the last few years. And all my manuals have them. But to be absolutely honest in a street car they are about as useless as nipples on a bore hog. (modified from what my grandmother used to say) Unless the engine is screaming at us few of us look at them much. With Rev limiters you don't need them for red line either. But they are nice to look at. With something like a S-2000 it should be mandatory. You need the tach to assure yourself it isn't about to explode.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2006

twas a 1998 model BMW. There's more room front AND back in an xA....the only thing the BMW has, of course, is a big trunk and gobs of power. But then it's bigger and thirstier and costs a gazillion dollars to fix anything.

british_rover · August 2006

Bah only if you take it to the BMW dealer. If you take it to an independent you can have it done for half a gazillion and if you do it yourself and screw it up you can have it fixed for two gazillion.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2006

When I got the bill from the dealer for the 10,000 mile service on the Scion I actually laughed out loud....$28...I think a BMW 3 Series GAS CAP costs more than that!

andre1969 · August 2006

just for kicks, I pulled up the EPA's measurements for the 1998 3-series coupe, the 2003 3-series coupe (which was the year my buddy had) and the xA...

1998 3-series: 82/9 (interior/trunk volume, cubic feet)
2003 3-series: 84/9
2006 Scion xA: 86/12

BMW's coupes are really starting to become kind of like scaled-down versions of 70's style personal luxury coupes in terms of proportioning, though. They're low-slung, close-coupled, and have relatively long hoods. Your typical 70's coupe had a fairly roomy front seat, cramped back seat, and a trunk that really wasn't all that spacious given the size of the car.

But then BMW's back then tended to be stubby, upright things, with the exception of maybe the 6-series coupe. So maybe the xA is starting to become more the spiritual successor to the old BMW 2002's, while the current BMWs are starting to become more like the spiritual successor to something like a Mark V. Well, except the handling part! :P

british_rover · August 2006

Yeah it does cost more then that.

I just took in a great Sub-compact in trade for a Range Rover Sport Supercharged.

Hey the EPA says a M3 is a subcompact so it must be right?

kyfdx · August 2006

..if it is a new BMW, the charge for dealer service is free for the first 4yr/50K..

bumpy · August 2006

With as much insulation and sound deadening as some cars have these days, you need the tach just to tell if the engine is running. It can also be helpful on hybrids that shut the engine off at stoplights and such. Apart from that, a tach is pretty much useless on a vehicle with an automatic transmission since it's all but impossible to over-rev a computer-controlled engine with the gas pedal.

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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