What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

podred · January 2008

Opinions aside, what I like about the various cars we are discussing here is:

1) Consumers have more and more choices.
2) The more the better as it continues to ramp up competition.
3) The more we talk about pros & cons the better, as the mfgs read these forums.
4) Fuel companies prove, they are going to push for the highest fuel prices.
5) Insurance also continues to climb, therefore the small car owners still save.
6) Safety is not worth debating (IMO) as they are all safer than motorcycles.
7) People love to talk about safety, but it doesn't sell cars. Think: Volvo
7) Accident avoidance is a real achievable goal. (just not 100% of the time)
8) Styling still rules as one of the top influences on what car people buy.
9) Not everyone is an enthusiast, thus high performance is saved for certain cars.
10) No one knows better than you, what car best fits your needs & desires.

Cheers!

alltorque · January 2008

Not seen the "Verve" but the Fiesta's in Europe are all hatchbacks with major dimensions of 3.92m long x 1.68m wide and weigh around 1100kg, (depending on model).

We now have VW offering the Passat with the 1.4 TSI engine rated at 120bhp/155lbft and a 0-60 of 10.5secs. Smaller more efficient petrol, (gas), engines are starting to appear. At the other end of the scale, of course, we have Audi announcing their new R8 variant with a 5.9 V12 TDi engine giving 493bhp / 738lbft, (at just 1750rpm). Fun and v fast but irrelevant. Opposite ends of the scale from the same folks.

From what I read and, (think), I understand on this excellent forum I doubt that the 1.4 TSI in a Passat would have much appeal in USA but I think it's a snapshot of a likely future.

podred · January 2008

Here are some pictures of the Verve

http://www.motiontrends.com/2007/m09/Ford/Verve_concept_car.shtml

Looks great to me!
I simply prefer two door stying and a fresh look in this segment.
This particular car is also quite appealing with the large diameter wheels and very clean styling with nice window outlines.

alltorque · January 2008

Podred, Like the list, no arguments from here. I drive a Volvo but "Safety" wasn't my prime reason for buying it. It ticked lots of my personal boxes and the high safety perception was something of a bonus. Had Volvo had a very poor safety rating it would have been a no-no, of course. I'm too old and have driven too many "unsafe" cars to get very excited about perceived safety..........but would steer clear of anything actually considered "Unsafe".

Lotus 7 ? Austin Healey Sprite, (the original) ? Not a lot of mechanical safety in those, so you learn to build safety into your driving.

alltorque · January 2008

Podred, Thanks for the "Verve" link. I think WOW about sums up my initial reaction. I could learn to live with those looks very easily. :shades: Size is hard to gauge but it looks more Focus-size than Fiesta.............do you have any size comparators?

podred · January 2008

In retrospect, my post could easily be interpreted as "anti_Volvo" which could not be further from the truth.

As one of my very favorite cars in my collection is a V70R, which I purchased because I love the Styling, Handling, Versatility and most of all, it's Buddy's Favorite (my dog). Of all the cars I currently own it's that very Volvo that continues to put a smile on my face every time I drive it.

What I really meant in my post, was even though Volvo is a very safe car and that is the backbone of many of their advertisements, it's been proven through their owner surveys that it's not always the primary reason people buy the brand. Just like you said, it's a great "bonus".

Furthermore, I just purchased the new Volvo C30 ver 2.0, and that car is really a tremendous vehicle. One that I believe is very overlooked and under advertised. One of the most innovative and freshest cars in the segment in a long time. Talk about looks, often I get more looks in that car that I do in my F430, however I live in Orange County CA where an F430 can easily be overlooked, a rather interesting observation. And yet, for some reason one car I own that seems to have a very broad appeal and gets the most looks on a consistent basis is my new Aston Martin DBS.

Austin Healey Sprites, bring back great memories from my college days. Having more time than money, my Sprite was somewhat of a "beater" yet provided 4 years of very enjoyable inexpensive motoring. Which brings us back to economy cars, the very subject of this thread. Thanks for the memories....

Cheers!

podred · January 2008

According to Car & Driver:

"But when the time eventually comes, Fords newest little car could take a really big bite out of the sales of the _like-sized_ Toyota Yaris, Nissan Versa, and Honda Fit."

source:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/14526/ford-verve-sedan-concept.html

boaz47 · January 2008

and the MG Midget were cars that simply aren't even a consideration anymore. With todays freeways you would be better off on a motorcycle. At least you could split lanes rather than be a sitting duck in traffic with a Excursion rolling up on you. My old Sprite was a fun car but there are places in Texas where flat out I couldn't keep up with tractor trailers in a head wind. If you remember the only thing between the driver and sitting outside was the thickness of the door panel. I don't remember there even being a cross brace in the door.

Still there isn't enough fuel mileage difference between a sub compact and some of the 4 banger mid sized cars to justify down sizing in many cases. With the deals they are offering on most of the compacts sold today there isn't much of a price difference either. And looking at the Versa next to a Mazda3 there isn't much size difference. EPA and Edmunds calls the Mazda a Compact and the EPA calls the Versa a sub compact. The Mazda has a one inch longer Wheel base and weighs 100 pounds more. It has 26 Hp more and gets better highway mileage than the Versa. I have spent more than a $1000.00 to get another 16 HP out of my old PT and I didn't get better fuel mileage in return.

If I sell my house this year and move to our place in the desert I might be interested in getting a new small car in a year or two. Unless sub compacts improve a great deal in fuel mileage during that time there isn't much real world advantages other than parking that would tempt me to go smaller than a Mazda3.

However if someone likes smaller just to be smaller more power to them.

iluvmysephia1 · January 2008

will share platforms with the new Mazda 2. The Mazda 2 is the closest Mazda ever made that I would consider parting cash for. And the new Ford Verve will share platforms with it. Mazda and Ford have just earned a lot more respect from me as I study these two new vehicles.

I don't know about you guys but I see a lot to like about each of them. I will follow their development from the Arizona desert and continue to enjoy my Lancer compact and it's RF 650-watt stereo and sunroof. From what I can see this new Verve is the best small car design from Ford since the '65 Mustang. And that '65 Mustang was my first car. Humm...think I might favor small rigs just a bit here? :shades:

podred · January 2008

As a fellow "my 1st car was a 65 Mustang" guy, I too find the Verve quite compelling. However that said, Ford of Europe has always designed and produced great small cars. It's just that they never made it over here to the USA. When you and I were enjoying our Mustangs, in Europe they were enjoying the powerful Coventry Climax Twin Cam Engined Lotus / Ford Cortina. This was a coupe that combined superb handling, lots of power and great fuel economy, all in one tidy package. I had the pleasure of driving one for a week in London and the surrounding countryside, and it was a sheer delight.

One could order a new Lotus / Cortina with the Coventry Climax engine in various horsepower outputs. The top engine at one point was a 1.5 liter , 170 hp, twin cam engine with dual Weber carbs and the entire engine only weighed 150lbs. All aluminum head and block, it was ahead of it's time. (source)
http://race-cars.com/engsold/other/1102116944/1102116944ss.htm
http://www.lotuscortina.net/Story1x.html

Unfortunately the "average American" simply has little or no appreciation for really great small performance cars, therefore little demand. Combine that with the overall "greed factor" mentality of Ford's North American Operations and it's practice of pushing (huge profit margin) Trucks and SUV's just like General Motors and you see where they are coming from. These two mfgs in particular are addicted to super high profit per vehicle numbers. Then add to that, the glee and profit taking of Exxon, Chevron, Shell, etc, and we have one receipt for continued marketing and sales of gas guzzlers.

guss · January 2008

If Ford can bring it over as is for under $17k, I'll be right behind you in line. If Ford starts Fording in up and de contenting it they will have another Focus on their hands.

podred · January 2008

I could not agree with you more, unfortunately all the "good cars" seem to stay across the pond.

Since I travel over there frequently, I have had the distinct pleasure of driving a wide variety of very interesting and fun small cars. Both in diesel and gas engined configurations, the choices are terrific and from an enthusiasts standpoint it just doesn't' get any better. Fun...fun...fun...

alltorque · January 2008

Podred, Didn't take your post as "anti-Volvo" in any way, shape or form. I was merely presenting my personal view on Volvo and reasons for buying. Your dog has excellent taste in cars. New C30, eh. Very smart looking vehicle and it nearly got my vote over an S60 but rear-seat access rather spoiled it, (getting older with even-older relatives, so 2-doors not ideal. Otherwise.................).

As for the other cars in your garage. What can I say, apart from; "Stunning" but I'm not really a Farrari fan. Aston's, though, have always lit my fire from the time I say Graham Gouldman, (10cc), taking delivery of his new DB5, (IIRC), when I was a lot younger - and so was he.

A C30 D5 may yet replace my S60 D5 at some stage and I'll just apologies to the old(er) folks and tell them it was an "economy" decision.

Nicely back to the real topic, I think.

podred · January 2008

It's hard to talk about the Smart since hardly anyone has even laid eyes on one yet.

Precisely!

alltorque · January 2008

Well, over here in Europe we've all seen lot's of Smart ForTwo's and we're a little underwhelmed, I guess. A great idea not particularly well executed. Great idea for a small car in the big city, but not really rated outside that envelope is, I think, the general concensus.

However, I do recall being overtaken by one, (Pink over Charcoal - sweet!!), at 80mph+ on the E40 approaching the Brussels Ring Road one afternoon and thinking; "There's a brave lady - or a very foolish one". To my mind there is no comparison between the Smart and the other cars in the "Learn More" panel to the right.

podred · January 2008

Nice post, boaz47

I enjoyed the points you made, especially the visuals created by your "Excursion rolling up on you" example....YIKES! Then your comment about the MB Midget door panel made me laugh so hard, as you are right, there was no cross brace whatsoever. My how times have changed...You also brought up some very valid points regarding the sub-compact / compact / mid-size comparisons as well.

Myself? While I enjoy and appreciate the ability to have a modest collection of sports cars of various sizes, if I were limited to just one, it would be small. I simply love the "experience" of motoring around in a fast, maneuverable, car. I live close to the mountains and my " vice" is to drive through the winding roads every chance I get.

Cheers....

podred · January 2008

Although I haven't had time to research it, I understand that Roger Penske is now behind the Smart car effort in the US and I find that very interesting.

As you so aptly put it, the Smart ForTwo's are underwhelming, and I could not agree more. Even though I live in the US and have not seen one here yet, I was in London on business a few weeks ago and noticed a few. However I did not have an opportunity to see one sitting still. And yet I personally cannot imagine exposing myself by driving one in the midst of the average American "drivers" out on the freeway. Madness at it's finest.

alltorque · January 2008

It just struck me that your Nissan Versa bears a striking resemblance to the Nissan Note we get in U.K., albeit with slightly different nose treatment and quite different tail treatment, (hatch only here). Comes with 1.4 or 1.6 gassers or 1.5 dCI. 5-spd MT on the diesel and 1.4 and choice of 5MT or 4AT on the 1.6. It's based on the Renault Modus but isn't selling in great numbers - it's a fairly crowded sector.

Over in Ireland, the same car is called the Tiida. Don't know what it's called in the rest of the EU, sorry.

The other cars in the panel are as per U.K./Europe models,,,,,,,,,,,,,,other than you guys & gals will insist on putting the steering wheel etc on the wrong side.

iluvmysephia1 · January 2008

under-development Ford Verve? And what looks to be a glass-covered ceiling as well. That is probably part of what I find appealing, as my wife and I enjoy the sunroof in our Lancer GTS.

I read a review of the SmartForTwo in Automobile magazine. The guy started out in Phoenix and took one to the Grand Canyon to see what all the stink was about. Pick it up and read the article if you are at all interested in the new Smart. I too have read that Roger Penske is getting involved in selling the Smart in America.

As for the article, he said that yes, the small car did get buffeted fairly well from semi-trucks on the highway but, he was surprised how he felt like he was driving a larger car than he really was driving. He loved it's parking and manueverability, as we might expect, too.

He said that town driving was great and that on the freeway it was a rig that he had to concentrate on in keeping the small buggy in the right openings while steering. He didn't say steering was not true, just that steering seemed to take both hands and some concentration.

He said that at one stoplight in Tempe a couple of girls were sitting next to him and laughing hard at him. He blew it off and reasoned that they just don't know. :shades:

He wasn't particularly pleased with gas mileage, I believe he said 31 mpg(same that I get in my Lancer!!) and that acceleration was adequate with the little RWD tranny and 3 cyl motor. IIRC he also had automatic tranny paddle shifters to play with for changing "gears". Check me on that if you want. It was I believe the Jan.'08 Automobile, the little Smart car has it's picture on the front of the magazine with the article I'm talking about in it. I mention that just in case it was the Feb.'08 Automobile magazine, I've read so many in the last week or so. You'll benefit from it if you're interested in the car.

I give it a big thumbs down for my driving desires and needs.

podred · January 2008

The other cars in the panel are as per U.K./Europe models,,,,,,,,,,,,,,other than you guys & gals will insist on putting the steering wheel etc on the wrong side.

Thanks....that's the best laugh I've had today!

And speaking from personal experience of driving a friends right hand drive Renault Megane Sport Hatch (Great Car!) the last time I was in Ireland...I felt like a fish out of water.... :confuse:

boaz47 · January 2008

Haha...yes but at least we drive on the Right.

Part of the reason the US drives a different kind of car than Asia and Europe is because we expect different things.

There is a book called the "Reckoning" I read a few years ago that is basically about the mistakes the US made when faced with the early surge of imports in the 60s. Two things were very clear in that Book. Nissan has a corporate hate of Toyota and americans look at their vehicles pretty much like they would a toaster. Americans expect to be able to drive their car trouble free with an absolute minimum or maintainance just like an appliance. The Asians look at a vehicle as a major investment and will go so far as to cover the vehicle with a blanket when the weather gets too cold. Europeans will put up with vehicles like VW because of their handling and are willing to overlook little things like power windows that need servicing more often. There was no way Lotus could sell the number of cars that the Miata was designed to copy because Americans simply wouldn't put up with the servicing requirements. I used to love my Healey and i was very impressed with my 124 Spyder but if Honda or Toyota would have made the powertrain I might still have one today.

I can see the beauty of some of the European type of sports cars. I see some promise to Asian sports cars but I am still a big fan of the sledge hammer approach of Corvette and Viper. But then I thought the Sunbeam Tiger was a much better car than the Alpine.

But as I have said earlier sub compacts simply aren't that much less expensive than a compact and they don't get that much better fuel mileage.

venture · January 2008

There was a Smart parked in a mall parking lot here in central Pennsylvania this summer. It was yellow with the black trim thingy.

It was sitting there beside another car. Nobody around it, nobody stopping to look at it, just sitting there all lonely.

Never saw it again.

hudsonthedog · January 2008

In southeastern Pennsylvania, I used to see a Smart every couple of weeks last year. I'm looking forward to driving one and I have been since I saw my first one (in person) in 1999.

guss · January 2008

That's funny, I saw one in the same area about 2 months ago at an office building near Philadelphia. I saw it 2 or 3 times in a weeks span and then it was gone. I wonder if PhillyrideShare has already received them ?

I just assumed that they were already out and thought about checking them out just out of curiosity.

oregonboy · January 2008

I spotted a transporter loaded with Smarts headed north on I-5 in mid-Oregon last Friday, January the 18th. Just got a glimpse of them so all I can say for certain is that there were a bunch of them. It seemed odd that they would be heading toward Portland, which is after all, a port. The nearest port to the south would be... what? San Francisco?

james

bumpy · January 2008

I just assumed that they were already out and thought about checking them out just out of curiosity.

No, they're just now starting to trickle out to the dealers. They're sold out for at least the rest of the 2008 model year, so it should be interesting to see if the dealers get any demo cars or not.

podred · January 2008

S = as in Swatch Watch, the original designer of the car
M = Mercedes, the co Swatch used to build the car.
ART = for Art's sake in other words a work of art.

Roger Penske's United Auto Group, the second largest dealer network is the official distributor of the cars. The first years projection is 20,000 sold. Very ambitious.

For more see this link:
Smart History

bumpy · January 2008

The first years projection is 20,000 sold. Very ambitious.

Not really. They had 35,000 reservations at $99 a pop back in November. :shades:

texases · January 2008

Yes, the key will be 3-5 years from now, with the 'new' gone, will they still be selling 20,000 Smarts a year?

bumpy · January 2008

Sure, when gas is $5-6 a gallon. 20,000 Smarts, 35,000 Aygos, 15,000 Micras, etc. Of course, half of those will be diesels.

podred · January 2008

I agree when gasoline prices go up so high that people finally get serious about taking action the small cars will definitely rule.

Regarding Diesel, I'm all for Diesel engines, however what really gets me irritated is the prices that are currently being charged for Diesel Fuel.

For those of you who remember years ago, there was always quite a spread between the price of gas (higher) and diesel (lower). Just the other day I noticed at a truck stop where diesel was .20 cents a gallon MORE than gasoline.........PURE EXTORTION... :mad:

texases · January 2008

Or a reflection of the higher costs to go to the low sulfur specification...

nippononly · January 2008

they talk about the demand for heating oil in the northeast and whatnot, but I DO wonder sometimes if the price of diesel is being manipulated for oil company profit.

Aygo, Micra, Justy, bring them on! I would love to see some of those offered in the States. :-)

snakeweasel · January 2008

I saw it 2 or 3 times in a weeks span and then it was gone.

They are going from city to city with some Smart cars promoting them at events. Could have been that that was happening when you saw them.

snakeweasel · January 2008

I spotted a transporter loaded with Smarts headed north on I-5 in mid-Oregon last Friday,

Could have been that promotion tour Smart has been on across the US. Not sure if they are still doing it or not.

bumpy · January 2008

No, the last one was at the beginning of December, and I think those cars were carried in the enclosed trailers at the shows.

snakeweasel · January 2008

Thanks, I knew they were doing the tour thing but wasn't sure when it ended. It's no longer on their website.

boaz47 · January 2008

going the way it is going it will be hard to imagine any new vehicles doing well. People that can't make the house payment can't make the credit card payment either. In most cases the car is the second biggest purchase most people make after their house and we are now being told that the economy is effecting new car sales as well. If things turn out as the experts are predicting and we slip into a real recession "new" cars sales will continue to fall. The argument that people will still have to drive only means people will hold on to what they are driving longer. People still need to have a place to live and yet the housing market is absolutely flat and new homes are getting hit hard. With the stock market dropping like a rock and the ripple effect it is having in other countries it will be surprising if there will be many new vehicle offerings from any country.

However I was interested to see what Smart was named for. I now understand why they haven't made any money in all the years they have been on the market. Their watches were good looking but worthless as a watch. A fad that passed almost as quickly as it came.

With the dollar dropping any car not made in the US can only get more expensive and harder to sell so I would look for many new small imported diesels if this recession does last another year as they say it will. Yes, I realize it is a splash of cold water in the face but everyone in all of the media outlets are reporting it as well as the government. By the time the government admits we are in a recession we have been in it for a long time. It will be hard to imagine everyone who put 99 bucks down to reserve a Smart will follow through at this time.

snakeweasel · January 2008

I just called the nearest dealership for them to me and they stated that they have them in stock and they invited me over for a test drive. Unfortunately its also the start of tax season and any time I am off the dealerships are closed. But as soon as I get a chance I will check them out and report back (but that may not be till April 16th

)

hudsonthedog · January 2008

Swatch is still one of the largest watchmakers in the world. And they haven't had anything to do with this car since BEFORE production started in the late 1990s.

Smart car sales have done very well worldwide and adding the US will only enhance that.

podred · January 2008

but I DO wonder sometimes if the price of diesel is being manipulated for oil company profit.

You hit the nail right on the head!

I know someone in the refinery business and he says that while costs have gone up in recent years as one would expect, they have _Not_ gone up to the same degree as the retail prices have. The cost vs sales price ratio has been driven up as high as the consumer can possibly tolerate.

podred · January 2008

However I was interested to see what Smart was named for. I now understand why they haven't made any money in all the years they have been on the market. Their watches were good looking but worthless as a watch. A fad that passed almost as quickly as it came.

Actually Swatch remains the top selling watch in the world. Their popularity is soaring, largely due to:

1) Their brilliant marketing plan targeting the youth sector.
2) Making affordable colorful, stylish, accurate timekeeping watches.
3) Continually producing new models and styles at incredibly low prices.
4) Relentless commitment to quality control.
5) Acquisition of a good majority of luxury brands
6) Creation of company known as ETA, the maker of luxury and prestige watch movements.

I have a limited edition Jaquet Droz, which is a very high end ($60,000) hand made limited edition (#12 of 20) watch, a company with a very long, rich history and brought back to life by Swatch.

(sources)
Swatch Group
Jaquet Droz

lilengineerboy · January 2008

Smart car sales have done very well worldwide and adding the US will only enhance that.

Except for they aren't profitable. If you sell each one at a loss, you cant make it up on volume...ask the big 3.

snakeweasel · January 2008

Except for they aren't profitable. If you sell each one at a loss, you cant make it up on volume...ask the big 3.

Yes but Smart produced three cars prior to now. Maybe the Fortwo standing alone produced a profit and the Forfour and roadsters are what brought the company into the red.

podred · January 2008

That was before Roger Penske got involved.

If anyone can turn this car into a successful product he's the man. The consummate businessman / racer / entrepreneur. He would not be getting involved if he did not see a way for it to work.

This will be a very interesting endeavor to follow. He's also the master of speed of implementation, so he will get it up and running or he will dump it. A no nonsense guy, Smart is in the best hands it could be in.

boaz47 · January 2008

"Actually Swatch remains the top selling watch in the world. Their popularity is soaring, largely due to:"

No I meant the Car. Smart has been in the red for about as long as they have been in business. If Roger is brilliant for sponsoring them and savvy enough to know to drop them if they flop, that would mean that whoever has been selling them at a loss all these year is an idiot wouldn't it?

No country has as much paved roads as the US and very few countries drive as many miles annually as we do. If the Smart can't make it in countries with small roads and in cities not designed with the Automobile in mind what would make Americans rush out and snap them up now? Not saying they might not do just that, after all we did buy the Hula Hoop but it doesn't seem like a good fit for our lifestyle. I sure couldn't see myself heading up interstate 5 heading up to see Nippon driving a Smart. Once you pass Buttonwillow the freeway is pretty wide and the trucks are doing 75 with a cross wind. The truck tires would be bigger than a Smart car. It would be even worse on 10 in Texas. You would get blown off of the road.

In very congested cities they might have a hope but that hasn't helped them in any other country.

scwmcan · January 2008

Boaz,
Yes smart has been in the red all along, but this was with the first generation car, which had it's own engines, transmission etc, designed and built speciffically for it. The second generation car has more parts out sourced (eg the engine is a Mitsubishi engine) and apparently costs much less to build, so there is a chance that the company may be operating in profit / car now (one would hope that they made sure they were lowering costs enough to make a profit on each car anyway) they aparently did this without sacrificing the qualities of the original car that people did like. As for driving them on the highway I see lots of people doing just that on the QEW/401 here in ontario, and they don't seem to be having difficulties (and at time I wish I was one of them, I would like to have a smart sar, and it probably would have been doable for us since my partener has a car that carries more than 2, but we decided on getting 2 Mazda 3's at the time, and they are fun

).
I do agree that most people could not use it as their only car though, time will tell if it is successful or not. They did sell more than they expected in Canada (though of course that was the much higher milage desiel version, I am not sure how people are going to react to the gas version here, but it is less expensive so who knows...)
Scott

stever · January 2008

what would make Americans rush out and snap them up now?

Because they are different and cute and no one else has one. I'd like one too but my Timex is just fine. It mostly lives in a drawer anyway. :shades:

boaz47 · January 2008

What we will be getting is a reasonable city car that seats two. It will cost us about what a Yaris will and will not be as practical. I doubt if we will be getting them for our kids. These cars have been made in Europe for quite a while now and that is one place where people know and love small cars. Still it is not a money maker. If the one we get is even cheeper than the one they made in Europe we are talking decontenting and we all know what happens to a small car when that happens.

Like you we can only wait and see but I am not holding my breath. That little 1000 cc motor will be working its little heart out trying to keep up with traffic here. Take it out of the city and we will have another Yugo on our hands.

hudsonthedog · January 2008

Except for they aren't profitable. If you sell each one at a loss, you cant make it up on volume...ask the big 3.

If you sell each one at a loss at one volume doesn't mean that at a higher volume, you'll still have the same loss per vehicle. The concept of economies of scale has smaller variable costs as the volume produced is increased. And this is a brand where a new factory was built and produces only about 110-120k vehicles. It'll take time before the venture is profitable.

As for the ForFour, it was produced by NEDCAR for Smart (and engineered with Mitsubishi), so the costs to DaimlerChrysler were smaller. The coupe/roadster shared many of the same parts with the standard ForTwo, so its costs couldn't have been too much either. I hope all those rumors about the coupe/roadster being sold to another manufacturer are true...that's the model I wanted most of all.

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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