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Comments
That said I do have an idea of what it is, and I hate to admit it but I believe that the "average" buyer of cars in that segment in the US could care less about the car. They are buying price, cup holders, colors, and related nonsense. Wow! Look at this car Linda, it has 10 cup holders.......sold.
How pathetic, true but pathetic. :sick:
Why? Price? People do base their purchases off of more than just price.
I've never been in the market for a minivan, so I couldn't tell you which one I think is better (although I think the Odyssey LOOKS better). But I think part of what's going on is that Toyota has gotten so big that they're sort of like how GM was back in the 60's and 70's. They could build something and people will buy it just based on name value, regardless of how good it really is. Now I'm not saying Honda is a loser name, not by a long shot. But I think Toyota's name value might be a bit stronger these days.
Meanwhile the 2008 model actually got some improvements.
I just don't see a reason for a drop in sales with the Ody, while the Sienna's sales are higher (flat pricing, no significant improvements for MY2008).
Toyota:
A very nice driving van. Great power, very refined in terms of the category known as NVH, noise, vibration, and harshness (ride quality). When I set aside my personal dislike for the styling of the Toyota, I found it more comfortable with the best ergonomics. In terms of ease of moving around inside without opening any doors (as though one is parked at a rest stop, it's raining and you don't want to get out) it's far superior to the Honda. The ride quality was controlled, not too soft, not to harsh. They have obviously spent a lot of time on this, as the wind noise is also down to nil. at freeway speeds.
Honda:
I love the looks of this van, especially the subtle changes made for 2008. I also prefer the more sports oriented driving experience and the taught suspension. However that said, I believe it works against them as most soccer moms and non car enthusiast dads would find it too stiff, and the steering too responsive. You must drive this van (what a novel concept), as opposed to the Toyota which is clearly designed for the Americans (who as I like to say, are merely passengers that happen to be sitting in the drivers seat). A scary thought really, but one I witness everyday as I drive a lot and watch these so called "drivers" wander all over the road. They are so busy eating, drinking, talking on the cell phone and turning their heads to the right to maintain eye contact with the passenger they are speaking to while hurtling down the road, oblivious to the fact that they are behind the steering wheel.
Then much like another comment made here, I believe that Toyota has such a strong reputation and brand loyalty, that many people go with that.
So Toyota dealers will deal more, and consequently Yaris and Sienna have more sales than Fit and Odyssey. And Fit and Odyssey will have better resale in 3 years and in 5......
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And why do we have to wait so long when they finally do decide to bring them across? Or in such limited engine options? Why can't we get the new diesel engines the same time Europe does?
But alas, I'll be in the market this summer for a new car. I've promised my car to my daughter and drive about 40k miles a year, mostly rural (freeway and 2 lane). So I'm looking for a bit of comfort, A/C, low total cost of ownership, high fuel economy, reliability, and few stops at the shop for scheduled maintenance. A diesel rabbit would be ideal. I could wait until the fall for the diesel Jetta, but it will probably start out in limited supplies and only on very upscale s (especially here in the midwest). Heck, I can't even find a 5M Fit or any Corollas in stock locally.
As soon as the general public is wiling to pay Mini prices for a Focus (or "Fiesta"), it can start to happen, but I just don't see a lot of $24k Foci running around (as much as I would enjoy it). As far as bringing over FoE vehicles, I would like to remind the forum members of the Ford Cortina, the Mecury Capri (the early 70s, and the 90s), the Merkur Scorpio and XR4Ti (which spanked the BMW 318 of the time in just about every measure), the original Escort and Fiesta, and one dear to my heart, the Contique twins, none of which were exactly out of the ball park home runs, although some did better than others. We will see how the Ford Transit goes, and they new Fiesta. Even other brands have had issues conforming to US codes and standards, remember the HUGE bumpers on European cars in the 70s and 80s?
I also think this whole mythical "they make it there so they should sell it here too since they already make it there" thing is a bit silly too. The European driving experience is very different than in the US. I think there are very few people who drive 30 miles each way to work, there is less travel on huge interstates and more travel on rural country roads. They are designed for a different user population. Even the US Honda Accord is very different from the rest of the world.
FoE has very different requirements than FNA. I think this is changing slowly, but a Mondeo is like $40k, the Contour was $20k and the Fusion is about the same so they have more to work with in terms of design. The Europeans are less legislative so there are fewer requirements and fewer lawsuits (that said, some of their crash safety requirements are silly).
Now if you are saying you don't care for the styling of some FordNA vehicles vs FoE counterparts (like the new Focus or the '08 Taurus), that I can understand, but the majority of the motoring public isn't willing to give up their higher torque motors and 6 speed automatics for the European driving experience.
That said I do have an idea of what it is, and I hate to admit it but I believe that the "average" buyer of cars in that segment in the US could care less about the car. They are buying price, cup holders, colors, and related nonsense. Wow! Look at this car Linda, it has 10 cup holders.......sold.
This is even more true than previously thought. One of the highest correlations with JDPowers satisfaction studies is number of cup-holders.
This is even more true than previously thought. One of the highest correlations with JDPowers satisfaction studies is number of cup-holders.
Funny you should mention that. One of the reasons the early MINIs scored so poorly on JDPowers surveys was the poor cup holders. :surprise:
That and the rough ride. I guess some how people thought a ultra short wheel base, light vehicle with at the very least sporting intentions in base form should have a soft ride. :sick: :confuse:
The average American car buyer is stupid.
Very good point, the reason I omitted it from my entry, is that I know enthusiasts like myself that would not let that stop them, providing the performance was similar to the Cooper S I have. It's one of my favorite cars, and yet there are many naysayers out there that argue it's too much larger and heavier than the original, and I'm aware of this because I own one of the originals, which in my opinion should not be compared. My 2005 Mini S has welcome creature comforts, a great audio system, although I hardly ever use it, due to the beautiful exhaust note!
Back to pricing, Your point is well taken as we enthusiasts are in the minority and love to drive, not dread to, like so many Americans.
Regarding your points on the Merkur, and others (which bring back memories) I agree with you.
The only point where I differ from your take is the European driving experience, and not that it isn't different as I do agree on that point. However, I have spent a lot of time there as my family is from Germany, and therefore I have driven quite a bit there as well. Yes the terrain, the typical length of a drive, roads, etc. are all quite different than the typical US driving pattern. And yet the fact that remains that there are a large group of enthusiasts on either side of the "pond". It's just that the ratios are so much different. On a per capita basis the largest group is in the UK and other countries.
While I could enjoy a lively debate on this for hours, the facts remain (specifics aside) as you have identified them. Too many differences between the two mindsets and based on this fact, I agree with you completely.
Cheers!
And Your Score Based On Statement Above....
Points
10 = Accuracy (yes)
10 = Succinct (yes)
10 = Discouraging (very)
10 = On Target (absolutely)
10 = Indisputable (yes)
10 = Surprising (no)
10 = Subject to Change (no)
10 = Frustrating (very)
10 = Dangerous (definitely)
10 = Funny (no)
Congratulations, a perfect 100!
Sad, but true...
The answer being American car companies that persisted in wanting to sell land yachts for the past 60 years, and therefore had to convince Americans that they were the best thing in the world.
To your point, Volkswagen did a series of consumer clinics around the United States (I think it was last year but could've been the year prior) and concluded that while in the European market, it is exclusively about the drive, while in the US market, it is about everything but the drive (witness the Focus, with SYNC is selling so well they have to increase production, while it is less powerful and only about as economical as the outgoing model it replaced.
It brings to mind the disgusting, low grade, sleazy, TV shows one only sees in the US.
Pretty scary when one thinks about who these shows are being written for.
Just one more sobering reminder about who we are surrounded by out on the open road. A bunch of semi alert, hamburger eating, soda sucking, self absorbed bozo's with their foot dancing between the accelerator and the brake pedal, all the while forgetting which one does what..... :surprise:
I understand that there is a group consisting of a minority of driving enthusiasts, and there are a few automobiles made for them (Corvette comes to mind).
And, I also cringe when I see those "self-absorbed" folks participating in several functions at once, of which the most miinor one seems to be driving. These folks would be dangerous if they were riding a bicycle, much less driving a 1.5-3 ton bullit.
However, to me, at least, I think the idea that every vehicle should be primarily performance designed isn't exactly realistic...
Being different from our foreign brothers isn't a bad thing. After all the US consumer represents about 50 percent of the total car buying public in the world. we like power, we like bigger houses we like easy to use. We don't like high taxes we don't like Royalty and we will do what ever it takes to survive even if it means driving smaller cars because we "have to", but we will not ever like it. We want to have our cake and eat it to. After all far more of our foreign cousins are moving here than we are moving there. So if we are stupid think about the ones that want to leave such great places as Europe, Asia, and central America must be to come here and suffer our vehicle choices. To me a total moron would be someone in Japan making and selling a Super bike to the US and not being able to buy one at home. They did that in the 70s and early 80s you know? So in the end it is all a matter of perspective.
Do I like small reactive cars? Sure but not as my only choice. Driving is only one facet of my life. It would make me sad if I had to give up hauling my toys to the desert to play in the rocks at the hammers or Rubicon. It is a far more depressing idea that I might not be able to buy a small commuter car the size of a large Quad to drive every day in bumper to bumper traffic.
Oh man what a loaded question.
We are the only super power left
Hmm, except maybe that place where they are having the Olympics that owns the U.S., makes all of our consumer goods, and is a new user of fossil fuels (although their developing infrastructure uses newer technologies...).
Once you get passed the Grapevine heading north out of LA with a good aligned vehicle you can drive for 20 minites without touching the wheel if there is no traffic.
Where as in every other civilized nation, people don't live 2 hours from where they work so in 20 minutes they would be there.
They have brought European cars here before. The Renault and the Peugeot. We chased them out of the country with torches like movie monsters.
Which is ashame since Peugeots had terrific ride quality and were magnificent highway cars. A 505 TD had enough power to move (though not extra) and was reasonably fuel efficient as well. It was a POS but eh, you cant have everything.
After all the US consumer represents about 50 percent of the total car buying public in the world.
Which means the whole world will get to share in our recession because Americans don't know how to handle credit and lack fiscal responsibility. Starting with the government right down to everyone who took a variable home equity loan to buy a car and go on vacation.
we like power, we like bigger houses
Yup we just cant afford them as our standard of living drops due to the lack of a middle class.
Do I like small reactive cars? Sure but not as my only choice. Driving is only one facet of my life.
Its good that you are well balanced in your hobbies...from your description though, do any of your hobbies not consume natural, non-renewable energy sources?
I like to restore and repair cars of interest. This actually keeps them off the road more than on the road, so I would argue it conserves fuel. My other main hobby is cycling, and other than competing with bio-fuels for lilengineeringboy fuel, I would argue is environmentally benign. I like a vehicle that gets good fuel economy that allows me to spend any discretionary income on other things, like preparing for retirement, home improvements, and hobbies.
My issue is that my Accord gets 34 mpg on my commute and can hold 5 people (including 4 people and an infant seat) comfortably. It has an honest to goodness manual transmission with a pedal that disengages and reengages the drivetrain at my command. It is certified as an LEV. The jump from the Accord to the Fit or the Yaris doesn't gain me enough to warrant the change.
It is a far more depressing idea that I might not be able to buy a small commuter car the size of a large Quad to drive every day in bumper to bumper traffic.
I think you will; it will be an enclosed box with windows that let light in but you cant see out, and computers will drive the vehicle and handle intersections, etc.
How does that work? Last year, there were more than 70 million vehicles produced worldwide (and, to be technical, more than 50 million of them were cars). In that same year, the US bought just over 16 million light vehicles (just under 7.9 million cars). Even with fleets calculated into these figures, I can't see how there were only 12-14 million consumers buying cars in the world last year.
Top 10 vehicles by sale 2006
1) Volkswagen: 3,111,855
2) Peugeot Citroen: 2,019,540
3) Ford: 1,623,532
4) General Motors: 1,585,022
5) Renault: 1,324,119
6) Fiat: 1,156,152
7) DaimlerChrysler: 922,461
8) Toyota: 896,831
9) BMW: 793,077
10) Nissan: 313,507
Total European sales 15,364,997
Did I miss something? You do know there are still European cars sold here, right?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I do not recall anyone suggesting that "every vehicle be primarily performance designed". As I agree with you, they should not.
However that is not to say that "some of the small cars" couldn't be performance oriented. After all, even a high performance oriented car like the Mini Cooper S still returns great fuel economy numbers. They consume far less fuel that your average Jumbo SUV, think Hummer H2, Escalade, Expedition, as well as the Jumbo Pickups.
It's simply a matter of those of us enthusiasts, asking for what we want, that's all. After all, this is America, where it's about freedom, choices, and free enterprise. The more offerings the more revenue and taxes generated.
Cheers.....
Where as in every other civilized nation, people don't live 2 hours from where they work so in 20 minutes they would be there.
I have been to some of those very places you may be thinking of. And living on top of each other is hardly what I consider civilized. Ever been shoved into a underground train in Japan? At least in London you get to sit down on the underground most of the time.
Whatever our short comings more people want to move here than want to move to China or any where else as far as I know. So if we are stupid then there are a lot of people that wish to be just as stupid as we are.
Oh man what a loaded question.
And if we are as stupid as some suggest where would you rather live and why?
Yes I do and maybe in the heat of the moment I wasn't clear. The US consumer buys as may cars as they do in Europe. And the post I was responding to was about all of the "interesting cars" they have in Europe and they have proven to be very interesting but not well received. The Renaults for one and the Peugeot for another. The Fiat I may have liked but it was a flop here as well. The Alfa looked good on paper but couldn't make it here. Some of these cars sell well where they were designed to sell but there is no reason for the American consumer to change their preferences simply because they are different from other people in other nations. I may like some of those same vehicles on a personal level but if it isn't as dependable as a toaster and as simple to operate the consumers they are trying to sell them to don't seem to be interested. Any company worth its salt has to design and develop their product for their customers based on their wants. To say the customer is stupid for not liking a product that doesn't meet their needs or wants is arrogant and elitist. IMHO.
No, just saying that they own huge amounts of our debt, are an economic superpower, and their standard of living is improving, which isn't the same direction ours is going.
The fact that we like what we like doesn't make the American driver stupid.
No, not stupid, I think ignorant is a better word that stupid. I think Americans were told what they liked, what success meant, and how to make it look like they achieved more than they had. I have no desire to own a Cadillac, a Lincoln or a Lexus, nor do I need a 4000 sq ft house to heat,cool, and clean.
I have been to some of those very places you may be thinking of. And living on top of each other is hardly what I consider civilized. Ever been shoved into a underground train in Japan? At least in London you get to sit down on the underground most of the time.
I was thinking about Santa Barbara/Goleta, San Luis Obispo, Ventura/'nard and Mountain View.
Whatever our short comings more people want to move here than want to move to China or any where else as far as I know. So if we are stupid then there are a lot of people that wish to be just as stupid as we are.
This may be true. I don't think the US is as popular as you think. India has incredible amounts of opportunity and a culture that thrives on that, Mexico's standard of living is increasing to the point where its not that big a benefit to manufacture there vs the US, etc.
I think my generation and the ones that follow don't have their hopes and dreams tied to huge cars and huge houses as a sign of success. I have nothing directly against the subcompact other than it doesn't buy me much in fuel savings over the Accord, but if I was back on the central coast, I would do what was in my power to pick up a Mini convertible, or maybe a 3 series convertible (the E36 and earlier are listed as sub-compacts).
None the less none of that makes the decisions of Asians or Europeans any more valid than the ones we as US consumers make. It does not make the owner of a Diesel Ford in Europe smarter because they drive a small car and pay a higher percentage of their taxes to do so than it does for our consumers. That was the original implication made.
Post 7519
The average American car buyer is stupid.
And Your Score Based On Statement Above....
Points
10 = Accuracy (yes)
10 = Succinct (yes)
10 = Discouraging (very)
10 = On Target (absolutely)
10 = Indisputable (yes)
10 = Surprising (no)
10 = Subject to Change (no)
10 = Frustrating (very)
10 = Dangerous (definitely)
10 = Funny (no)
Congratulations, a perfect 100!
Sad, but true...
I find that offensive. I know American bashing seems to be the thing to do but if we did the same thing to everyone else with a lower standard of living than ours it would be called prejudiced. What is wrong with wanting a machine that is dependable and gets us from point A to point B every time without a bunch of quirks to take into account? If that is what the American consumer wants who has the right to call them stupid? Different strokes for different folks it used to be.
When getting from A to be is typically a 5-10 mile trip, and the person wants a Suburban for it as the drive it alone 90% of the time, not towing anything, and leaving the interior otherwise empty, I call that a quirk. Especially since Chevys aren't all that dependable. :shades:
It says that American carmakers are still operating under the presumption that we will not buy hatchbacks, but really, isn't there a ton of evidence to the contrary? The Matrix has sold well for five years, the Fit is selling well, Toyota had to boost production of the Yaris hatchback due to insufficient supply, just to name a few.
So they are developing a sedan off the Fiesta hatchback design, which is always a formula for an ugly sedan IMO. I just hope they sell the Fiesta hatchback too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But with smaller cars, often it seems just the opposite. Once you get small enough, sedans and coupes start looking awkward, and the hatchback style just makes more sense.
Now comparing the Yaris hatchback to the sedan, I think the hatch is kind of a goofy looking little thing. But it's also a lot smaller than the sedan, and I'm sure that if they tried to make a sedan that small, it would look horrible. And be pretty useless.
I kinda like the Versa. If I was going to get one of those, I'd take the hatch over the sedan. Those aren't exactly subcompact, though.
In 2005 Toyota had an American team design the Yaris sedan and a French team design the hatchback. Even though they share a name and a powertrain, there's a lot that the two cars don't have in common.
The European design influence is clearly apparent (to me) in that the interior of the hatchback is more stylish and better outfitted than the sedan.
The original Fiesta we got here, as well as all the European Fiestas since then, have been hatchbacks. The car is designed to be a hatchback. So is the Verve/2011 Fiesta. They will Echo-ize it, I'm sure, in order to produce a 4-door sedan for the U.S. and then in a couple of years they will wring their hands and say "why oh why did we bother to bring a B-class car to the U.S.?? Everybody knows Americans only buy gigantic cars!!". Which isn't true at all, Americans just know an ugly car when they see one. Which is why I hope they bring the 3- and 5-door Fiestas over as well, even if they DO insist on selling a sedan.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ford still isn't very bright though.
Now comparing the Yaris hatchback to the sedan, I think the hatch is kind of a goofy looking little thing. But it's also a _lot smaller_ than the sedan, and I'm sure that if they tried to make a sedan that small, it would look horrible. And be pretty useless.
Comparing specs reveal the Yaris 2 door vs 4 door are the same size.
It's the styling that makes them look different. Size is equal on the inside, outside, width, interior shoulder and hip room etc. The only difference is the sedan wheelbase is an extra 2 inches long to support the added 18" of body length for the trunk. So if you need the extra luggage space the sedan is the one.
Conversely if you want a fun car with a distinctive European look, the 2 Door Hatchback is the car. In fact it's becoming very popular in the US, as it's the only Euro Style 2 door hatchback at such an affordable price. This is why Toyota just announced their second increase in production numbers to keep up with demand. After all now that gas is $4.00 per gallon, its' a great car for all around use.
It's a shame that Honda passed up the chance to get in on this sector, as a 2 door Fit would sell very well here, especially since Honda has a great performance image. Besides 2 doors have always been sportier than four doors. The 4 door has always been a family sedan type of image. Not exactly sporty.
I know our local Honda dealer well, and he simply cannot get enough Civic coupes. He also agrees that if he had 2 door Fit's to offer, he predicts that they would outsell the Civic coupe 2 to 1. With price being one of many reasons, he says that the Honda dealers in the region have been asking for a 2 door, since news of the Fit first surfaced over two years ago. However much like Toyota, Honda is a very conservative company (look how long it took them to get their Mini Van to market) and decided they would only build one version of the Fit. Ignoring what has been, at least here in CA, a huge demand for 2 door Civics for years.
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Your points are well taken, and I don't disagree with you. However as someone who has always been fond of sporty little hatches, I can overlook not having a trunk.
Also as a minimalist, I rarely put anything in the "back" of my Yaris hatchback. Mostly because I love cornering at a high rate of speed. Thus in doing so, anything that's back there would be "launched" into another part of the car, thus I simply do not use that area.
After the suspension mods I've made to my 08 Yaris S hatch, along with 18" tires and wheels, it's like the two stroke Yamaha Racing Kart I used to pilot at the ripe old age of 12 years old!
Is that a corner ahead? Keep that throttle down and just turn.....whooo hoooo!
Nothing like a short wheelbase, lightweight vehicle like my Yaris. Fun, fun, fun! It makes the little kid in me Smile...
Cheers
Where the Ford Focus hatch w/heated seats and a sunroof ?
I bet if Honda puts some options on thier Fit as I mentioned they'd sell mucho.Same with ths Yaris,Scion XA, and Yaris .
Man, gas is $3.89 Premium for my car, but I'm not spending 26 K for a Mini.I need a Hatchback for going to Home Depot ,or taking my window screens tro Ace Hardware to be fixed.
I have a Tpye S hatch and it looks like I'll have it untill it dies.
Hundi has a hatch,but not with toys I want.I think a small hatch with lots of options would be a sucess with gas $4.00 a gallon.
How many women I see with Murano"sBlazers Escalades,.andI bet not one of them has been off road. . :confuse: :
American car companies put as little money as possible into designing compact and smaller vehicles....they don't make money off of them. They're only there to bring the fleet average down for CAFE, so i suppose it makes some sense to sink as little money as possible into them. But why is it other companies can make money off of the things?
I guess Honda, Toyota and Nissan didn't know that piece of information...
Man, gas is $3.89 Premium for my car, but I'm not spending 26 K for a Mini.I need a Hatchback for going to Home Depot ,or taking my window screens tro Ace Hardware to be fixed.
Hmm so a Mini is too expensive for you as a European car, but if you take a car in the same price range in its home market, slap a blue oval on it and sell it here, you expect it to suddenly be half price?
Go pick up the very European Vauxhall Astra, oh I mean Saturn Astra and then complain about the value of the dollar against the Euro.
I too would drive an RSX-S until it died, as there is really not replacement in the market right now. Acura said your crummy RSX is too down-market for them, and you have said the Mini is too pricy, although it really isn't more expensive than the RSX was new.
I think they need to bring back the Fiat Tipo and 500 and perhaps the Yugo so all these people that thing European cars are cheap or free can get some low price vehicles.
I guess Honda, Toyota and Nissan didn't know that piece of information...
Oh sure they did, and they live it. They use economies of scale and smart development tools to be effective in the market place. Ford made considerably more for each Explorer it sold than a Focus. What he said was true, the failure was not using those profits to develop more efficient designs and drivetrains.
$5 (small profit) x 1 million sales > $1 million x 3 sales. :shades:
Translation: small profits get REALLY big when one is able to sell a whole LOT of them.
as I get 44 miles per gallon. All I can say about this is BEEP BEEP.
However, as you guys are starved of even cooking VW diesels I doubt you'll ever see this on your roads.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In terms of overall size, think Audi A6. Not too many hatches in that sector. I have a .pdf of the pre-launch brochure but no idea how to embed that on here.
I had a Skoda for 3 trouble-free, fun years, (a Fabia vRS which is the 130bhp/6MT 1.9TDi in a 5-door hatch based on the VW Polo - hence the fun). My daughter has one, (1.4 Fabia) and her partner has another one, (1.8T Superb); 7 and 6 years-old respectively - all trouble free. In a year or so's time I will seriously consider changing my Volvo S60 D5 for a new Superb, provided it lives up to its promise and it, hopefully, has the 2.7TDi.
My folks are looking at the Accent SE hatch as a second run-around car. I'm not really familiar with the reliability (or not) of this particular vehicle. I know Hyundai has been on the upswing lately, although not reflected in the Entourage or VeraCruz. Be the devil's advocate with me; why should my folks not by this car? Why should they?