What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

alltorque · April 2008

BR, Thank you for that - it's winging it's way over the pond.

thegraduate · April 2008

I can't seem to find Cruise Control listed as an option for the Accent, even the SE. Is it?

british_rover · April 2008

I thought I could do it from my work computer but it doesn't look like I can. I will give it a try when I get home.

nippononly · April 2008

The Accent SE does not offer cruise control, no.

Apart from that, it's a fairly cool little ride, but unless you are looking for something sporty-leaning, you can save some dough going with the non-SE model (GS?).

And the Yaris is a viable alternative - it actually costs exactly the same if you want the hatch. Toyota resale and reliability are included for the same money. Apart from that, there doesn't seem to be much between them, aside from brand preferences. If you WANT a sporty car though, the Accent SE has more going for it than the Yaris S.

Hyundai has been having a lot of trouble selling its larger models and there are consequently now huge cash rebates on Sonata and some other big models. I don't know about the Accent though. Toyota is offering $250 cash back on Yaris right now.

bumpy · April 2008

It's a perfectly good subcompact hatch. A bit bigger than a Yaris and a bit smaller than a Versa, with fuel economy in between those two. There is no cruise control from the factory, but there are aftermarket kits for it.

snakeweasel · April 2008

We have a 2002 Accent (sedan) with about 120K trouble free miles. Its a fun car to drive, handles rather well. My family has 4 high mileage Hyundais and only one issue we paid out of pocket for.

As for buying it or not buying it the answer is simple. If they like it and the price is right buy it. If they don't like it or the price isn't right don't.

alltorque · April 2008

Apropos of nothing other than the car in question ............. the original Hyundai Accent here in U.K. had the model name "Accent" on the boot (trunk) lid in very flowing script.

At a quick glance it seemed to read Effluent and, sadly, lots of folk still think of them as such.

Sorry. Back in my box now.

andre1969 · April 2008

I sat in one of the new models about a year ago, the 2-door hatchback. Now y'all have heard before how I gripe about the seating position on most subcompact cars, with their inadequate legroom for me? Well, I have to say, this sucker was one of the roomiest little cars I can recall sitting in! Now it's still too small and vulnerable-feeling for my tastes...I'd rather have a bit more sheetmetal around me than what this thing offers. But legroom-wise, it felt like it would put many midsized or even full-sized cars to shame. It felt like a car I could actually get comfortable in.

nippononly · May 2008

In a market which is plummeting LIKE A ROCK, you know which group of vehicles is rocketing up in sales? You guessed it! Subcompacts! :-)

Versa: up more than 25% in April from last year, up something like 20% in YTD.

Aveo: up 23.5% over the same time last year, up for the year.

Fit: Honda was late to report results due to technical difficulties, but Fit is certainly up by a large margin YTD vs last year, even if they didn't sell a single one in April (which isn't likely). Honda said preliminarily that its sales were up 6% for the month for all of Honda including Acura, up about 10% for the Honda brand alone.

Yaris: up a WHOPPING 46%. This model is so far beyond Toyota's original sales goals for it, they must be wondering how they could have got their estimates so wrong.

All this as trucks and SUVs as well as full-size sedans dropped at rates of 25-50% (the largest drop I saw was for the Commander, down 49%). F-150 is down 21%, another large decline to mirror the ones in earlier months this year.

Per George Pipas of Ford, a full-size truck is on the top 10 list of traded-in models for EVERY SINGLE small car on the market this year.

In a related note: Prius is still only at a 4 day's supply on the ground, it is turning so fast, so clearly one of the main reasons for subs' skyrocketing popularity is gas prices, no surprise.

There are a couple of articles here which I read this morning, talking about some of this stuff:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080502/FREE/25380312/1528/n- ewsletter01

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/02/BU9L10FD6Q.DTL&hw=sm- all+car+sales+gain&sn=001&sc=1000

lilengineerboy · May 2008

The Focus seems to be enjoying this sensation as well, as sales were up 30% and required additional shifts to be added. I am glad the domestics are starting to diversify their portfolios a bit, even if it is a bit late.

nippononly · May 2008

From what I read, the Focus is actually up 44%. People like the new face and the SYNC thing, I guess.

I forgot to mention before, Accent is apparently also up, but I haven't seen any exact numbers.

According to this, Fit set a new sales record for April (there have only been three Aprils in the U.S. so far, IIRC), as did Honda as a whole:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/05-01-200- - - 8/0004804820&EDATE=

podred · May 2008

My experience regarding how roomy (or not) a subcompact is, directly relates to the shape of the various interior parts. Such as the shape of the door panels, if there is a console, or armrest. The shape of the floor, where the dead pedal is (if there is one) and the fore & aft positioning of the steering wheel.

Setting aside subcompacts and just talking cars in general and the manufacturers tendencies. a few years ago I wanted to purchase a 7 series BMW as it was the last of the "angular look" prior to the hideous trunk of the upcoming new model. Having a S class MBZ I was not prepared for the experience of simply sitting in the BMW.

I was shocked at how close to my chest the steering wheel came, even though it was telescopic and retracted as close to the dash as possible. I still had my elbows bent uncomfortably as it was so close. Conversely when sitting in my (same year) S class MBZ I could have my arms reaching straight out, if I wished to. In that car I actually had to use the telescopic feature to bring the steering wheel into a comfortable position.

I would have never guessed in a million years that the driving position is that 7 series would be a deal breaker.

Fast forward to the new 2008 Yaris hatchback I just bought for fun. Now there is a car that is very roomy for the driver. I'm 6'3" and also must reach for the steering wheel if I have the seat in the rear most position. I love it! Arms out, (like when I raced a formula car with a narrow cockpit) plenty of leg room, and a very surprised look on the faces of people when I approach a corner and simply turn while maintaining a fun filled 30 mph.

Nothing like a zippy car for around town fun. No it's not like my Racy Red Mini Cooper S, but it's a lot of fun for what it is, at less that half the price.....

Yaris "S" 2dr hatch by Toyota.... Simply Brilliant!

boaz47 · May 2008

I never thought things would get this bad this quickly but once again we are hit with a gas crisis and suddenly small cars are becoming a hit with the buying public. To tell the truth I am a bit shocked. Not enough to get rid of my toys and my truck or SUV but shocked none the less. I now tend to drive the Pontiac 4 banger on a daily basis and save the Tahoe for weekends and trips. I was heading out to get a GPS for our trip to Colorado next month and I happened to be in that very same 4 banger. I will admit I was a bit distracted as I was sitting at the light when a young girl pulled up next to me in what I thought was a White Crown Vic in the turn lane to my left. After the light changed I noticed it wasn't a crown Vic but rather a New Camry. It was longer taller wider and heavier than my old Pontiac Sunbird. The day may come when I have to replace the little Pontiac, it only has 34,000 origional miles on it now so that may be quite a while, but I doubt if I would buy a new sub compact to replace it. I am puling hard for something in a mid sized with a diesel or even a hybrid. But I like my room and comfort too much to go back to something as small as most sub compacts. It would be different if they started at less than 9K but if I ever buy one it would be used and as a town driver only.

My other hope is the idea they are talking about on giving us a summer vacation from federal gas taxes. As it stands now I may be taking fewer vacations than I had planned over the next few months. Still the Grand canyon and Yellow Stone are planned for this year. I just have to make sure we have the cash saved in time to go.

nippononly · May 2008

"But I like my room and comfort too much to go back to something as small as most sub compacts."

The only reason you think that way is because you haven't tried one on lately! :-)

Oh....and the jury is still out of course, but this may be the new gas reality rather than a gas crisis.

busiris · May 2008

My other hope is the idea they are talking about on giving us a summer vacation from federal gas taxes.

At only 18 cents/gallon, either you plan on using a tanker load of gas, or you are able to vacation extremely cheaply!

boaz47 · May 2008

But 18 cents is something. At least it is when it goes up by 18 cents. But my vacations are planned and fuel is taken into account. I would be very depressed if I were frozen into only being able to stay home or commute to work. The gas for us to get to and from Colorado will run about 800 bucks. I will factor in 1000. I agree if I had kids life as we know it would be very hard.

It seems as if the fuel prices are the least of our problems however. Small cars will not put a dent into what this is doing to our economy. Food is taking up more and more of the average families income. When you hit the trucking industry you hit everyone. And this fuel situation will hit the working person far harder than most realize. As the economy tanks raises become few and far between. The current crop of sub compacts will not help much in that regard.

I do disagree with my friend Nippon however on the comfort and space issue. Hardly any car magazine would say a Echo or a Yaris is as comfortable as a Camry. No one would say a Civic is as comfortable as a Accord, nor is a Fit. It is a camparitive thing.

I have seen all of this before. In the 70s were were panicked into sub compacts and were told that we were doing it as a long term goal. It didn't last. We even had a national speed limit of 55 MPH to save gas. Once things stabilized and people adapted we went back to business as usual. I am not all that sure that will not happen again.

I think the real question is what would we rather drive? Not what do we have to drive. I am not talking about what is the more practical but the most desirable. If you were going to take a 2000 mile road trip and someone else was buying the gas how many people would pick a VW Jetta over a BMW 7 series or a Yaris over a Lexus or a Aveo over a Cadillac? Maybe the better question is what would the average American consumer want to drive under those conditions?

lilengineerboy · May 2008

My other hope is the idea they are talking about on giving us a summer vacation from federal gas taxes.

Oh man, I think that is an idea so bad only politicians could come up with it. I mean, since our country's infrastructure is in great shape and all of our interstates are perfectly maintained, perhaps you are right, who needs money to maintain roads...if you believe that, there is a bridge I want to sell you- in Minneapolis.

The fact that some money to fix stuff might be nice, lets hit on that old topic of supply and demand and market pricing. So now that we are paying $X + 0.18 for gas, if the government suddenly repealed that 0.18 cents, do you really for a second thing we would suddenly be paying just X given they know we will pay X+0.18?

podred · May 2008

As a _Driver_ as well as _Enthusiast_ and _Ex Racer_ if I want comfort I will.... sit on the couch....lol.

When the "average driver" is taken into consideration it's about getting from point A to B, as in being "transported". If the average overweight American wants to "spread out" then yes give em a big Cadillac, Ford, Suburban, Tahoe or other rolling couch on wheels. It suits them fine. I understand that they cannot fit in a small car.

Me? I want to have fun driving, not just being transported.
Expensive gas? Yes, it's disgusting, however my passion, hobby and joy, is my car collection that I have worked very hard to assemble. Therefore I'm not about to give up the "gas guzzling F40 Ferrari" which by the way is quite an "uncomfortable, noisy, harsh riding, hard steering beast". Yeah..... and I love every minute of it.

Funny how it is. I'm 6'3", 190 lbs, and I find my Yaris a good fit, thank you.

When I'm out zipping around town in my Yaris 2 dr hatchback, I'm super relaxed and having a great time. Why? It's a garden variety car that draws no attention, is fun to drive and I can park it without worry of some jealous idiot scratching it with his keys or banging his door into it. Some people even laugh at how "small it is".

Fact: my 08, Porsche 911 GT2, has the _SAME interior dimensions_ as my 08, Yaris 2dr hatchback.

I get mobbed at the gas station, and not a single drooling male says " gosh that's a small car". Nor can I park it without drawing undue attention. In fact having the GT2 is half the reason I bought the Yaris for around town driving. Especially since the Yaris was nearly free.... as compared to the premium price on what is the finest all around sports car of the several high end exotics I have. And people say "small cars" are uncomfortable.... yeah right!

Perhaps it's just that _I'd rather work out_ at the gym, and go for a _fast ride_ in a great sports car in the mountains, _as opposed_ to sitting in front of the TV _being Comfortable_ on the Couch, Eating Ice Cream.

bpizzuti · May 2008

We even had a national speed limit of 55 MPH to save gas.

I still don't get that. Saving gas has nothing to do with a general speed thing. It's all dependent on the car's individual design, and engine gearing. I've discovered that my car is most efficient at about 3200 RPM, which generally is 68 MPH or so on level ground. That's where I get the most miles out of a gallon of fuel. On other cars, the sweet spot is in a different place, and ends up being 60 MPH, or maybe even 70. There's actually quite a range out there.

But quite a few cars lose efficiency by running at 55 MPH.

explorerx4 · May 2008

back when the 55 MPH limit was started, maybe car were most efficient at 55 MPH? i hated it.

lilengineerboy · May 2008

Perhaps because they used to look like :

Instead of like:

andre1969 · May 2008

And believe it or not, the Fairmont/Zephyr were the result of extensive wind-tunnel testing at that time! Ironically, there were also pretty fuel efficient for a car of that size. But that was probably due to the light weight, starting as low as 2500 lb for a stripper model, and the use of mainly tame 2.3 OHC 4-cyl engines or 3.3 6-cyl engines. The 4 only put out around 84 hp and the 6, maybe 88-90. But in comparison a Nova or Volare probably started in at around 3200-3300 lb., and had to rely on stuff like 3.7 slant sixes with around 100 hp or 4.1 straight sixes with maybe 105.

You could also get a 302 in the Fairmont, in the earlier years at least. It only put out around 130 hp, but in such a light car was probably a better performer than a Nova or Volare with a 150-170 hp 350/360 range engine. And a lot easier on gas.

It's weird to think that something like that Camry, even in 4-cyl form, probably weighs as much as a V-8 Volare or Nova, yet probably gets better economy in the city than either of them would've gotten on the highway. And would probably out-accelerate any of them, except maybe the police spec models in the better years of the 70's. Shows just how far cars have come.

lilengineerboy · May 2008

My '76 Nova had a 4L I6 (250/6 w/ TH350) and could put the hurt on my friend's earlier Nova with the 2 speed automatic (it had like a 307 or something) and we both got spanked by my friend's Zephyr wagon with the 302. That Zephyr had like 175/70 14s or something like that, they were so skinny they looked ridiculous on that car (the Nova at least had 205/70R14 IIRC).
The thing I remember most about the Nova was the dealer never got it to idle right, so the idle was set WAY to high. It would go 55-60 without my foot on the gas, that can't have been good for fuel economy.

dtownfb · May 2008

Amen!

bristol2 · May 2008

Once things stabilized and people adapted we went back to business as usual. I am not all that sure that will not happen again.

2 major changes since the good old days:
China
India.

Something like half the world's population is either Chinese or Indian and they are all getting ready to buy cars, lawn-mowers, 4-wheelers, airplanes etc etc.
The reason for the situation in the 70's was OPEC shutting down the supply, that is not the situation any more. The price may continue to move in both directions but the we will not get back to the days when it didn't matter that you got 15 mpg.

hudsonthedog · May 2008

Removing the gas tax for a few months will do NOTHING to the price of gas. If gas companies can charge $3.50-$3.75 with the tax, what's going to stop them from doing it without the gas tax...especially in the summer months when demand goes up naturally?

Posting a speed limit of 55mph (or anything slower than the average speed) helps save gas. If you naturally drive at 65mph, you're using more fuel than you would at 55mph as long as you're still in high gear...no matter what car or truck you're driving. The aerodynamic drag on your vehicle increases dramatically with every mph faster you drive.

And I don't think the interior dimensions of a Porsche 911 GT2 are "the same" as the Yaris since the Yaris has a much larger rear seat, since the GT2 doesn't have one, (and probably a smaller front seat) than the 911...and about 17 cubic feet of more interior space (87 vs 70 cubic feet in the 4-passenger 911).

nippononly · May 2008

how many Yaris 'S' hatches Toyota would sell if they put just a little more investment into it. I'm talking giving it a factory rear sway (which every other Toyota on the road has, except maybe the base Corolla), slightly lower profile tires, factory cruise, maybe one or two more "upscale" factory options (moonroof? NAV? Leather seats? add keyless to the power package?).

This thing has been selling like gangbusters, but I'm sure there are those that would spend another $1000 for one that would give Fits and Minis a run for their money in the handling department and have an extra nicety or two. Fully loaded it would still sticker for only $16K or so. And given the strong trend towards smaller cars (and towards cars in general: last month was the first time in 20 years that cars outsold trucks, by 4% no less!), Toyota would do well to expand its lineup among the trims of its smallest model. :-)

ateixeira · May 2008

Given the sales success I doubt they are looking hard at what they should change. They may do the opposite and de-content other models to try to copy the Yaris' success.

nippononly · May 2008

Well, they already did that with the '09 Corolla, offering a new "standard" grade below even the old CE. If there's one thing Toyota is good at, it's decontenting. They could give classes. ;-)

But the Yaris has better fuel economy than the Corolla, especially in town, and if as it appears people begin downsizing in sizable numbers from larger cars/trucks that offered more amenities, they will probably want many of the same amenities even in the new smaller car they trade into. And adding a rear sway and cruise to the 'S' is going to add what, $100 per car to Toyota's costs? Lower profile tires would add another $25? They will be able to get $250 more for the resulting car from the customer, no sweat, I would think.

ateixeira · May 2008

Yep. I have an 07 Sienna, and when the 08s came out all your heard about was how Bluetooth and VSC were now standard.

What the press release did not say was that the Tow Prep Package and fog lights were deleted from many models.

So whatever changes, they offset it somehow.

podred · May 2008

And I don't think the interior dimensions of a Porsche 911 GT2 are "the same" as the Yaris since the Yaris has a much larger rear seat, since the GT2 doesn't have one,

This statement above is just a misunderstanding of my original post, perhaps I was not clear about the drivers space.

I was not talking about rear seats, overall cargo volume, or carrying capacity. What _I was referring to_ is the _drivers space_ and _comfort_ for the driver. Some people here were suggesting that "sub compacts" were tiny and uncomfortable. Accommodations for the Driver are the Same. I know, I drive them both, and find them equally as roomy in the drivers seat. The position is quite different as the seat bottom is higher in the Yaris, thus I sit higher and can see around cars. Whereas in my GT2, I'm sitting very low to the floor.

Here are the dimensions as I personally measured them:

Shoulder room: Yaris = 51.5" GT2 = 51.5"
(as measured from the inside of the drivers door panel at shoulder height across to the other side)

Leg room: Yaris = 41.0" GT2 = 41.5" (.5 greater for GT2 but feels the same)
(as measured from the seat back hip area down to brake pedal)

Seat Width: Yaris = 20.0" GT2 = 19.5" (.5 again too little difference to notice)
The Yaris hatchback is an S model with Sport seats.
(as measured from the side bolster at the edge to edge across the mid section of seat back).

So there you have it, from a drivers standpoint, these two cars have the same amount of room, and that's what affects how one feels in the car when driving. As far as overall room in cu.ft. of cargo space, the Yaris is a Giant, as compared to the Porsche which is very obvious as one only has to look at the shapes of the two.

andre1969 · May 2008

Leg room: Yaris = 41.0" GT2 = 41.5" (.5 greater for GT2 but feels the same)
(as measured from the seat back hip area down to brake pedal)

Just out of curiosity, is that how the manufacturers measure legroom?

Just for kicks, one day I took the tape measure to some of my old cars, measuring from the center of the seat cushion all the way at the back, up over the front of the seat to the base of the accelerator pedal. Here's what I got...

1979 New Yorker: 44.5"
2000 Intrepid: 45.0" (surprising, because the NYer feels bigger and more comfortable to me...maybe it's just that the seats are better padded?)
1976 LeMans coupe: 45.5"
1967 Catalina convertible: 42". (that was a shock for me, but its pedal is floor mounted rather than suspended...wonder if that had anything to do with it?)
1968 Dart hardtop: 42" (again, I was surprised, because this car feels roomy to me)
And just for kicks, I measured my uncle's '03 Corolla. 41". No wonder that car feels so miserable to me,,,it's anywhere from 1 to 4.5 inches less than what I'm used to!

I'm curious now to take the measurement at the brake pedal. Also, I guess it would be more accurate to take the accelerator pedal measurement where my heel rests on the carpet, since not all accelerator pedals are in the same place. Some of them are floor mounted (although that's rare today), and they all have varying lengths.

busiris · May 2008

Dude....Such a bummer!!!

guss · May 2008

The lack of options is a pretty big strike against the Yaris for me. The 3 major options I care about are A/C, sunroof and alloy wheels. Power windows and locks seem to have become standard on most cars so I would not even include them. Of the 3 , the Yaris only has the a/c.

nippononly · May 2008

Yes, but even with the power package that includes alloys it is only about $15K with a stick at MSRP. It stinks that Toyota has tied availability of the alloys to the power options, but I could maybe let that one slide if they offered an optional moonroof and standard factory cruise for the 'S' models, INCLUDING THE HATCH.

You know which Fit sells better? The Sport, the more expensive one with all the extra equipment. Toyota ought to wake up to the unrealized market it has here with the Yaris.

thegreatoz · May 2008

The 55 MPH myth only applies to lightweight vehicles. My Honda Hydrocarbon Civic gets 34 mpg on the highway at both 55 or 65 mph (mathematically). My old Honda Hybrid Civic got 35 mph at 65 mph and 35-36 at 55 mph (according to the dashboard computer).

HOWEVER, according to the dash computer on my '07 Suburban, I get 16.2 mpg at 55-60 mph, but get 16.5-17.8 mph at a steady 70 mph. (taking into account the engine occasionally shutting down 4-cylinders during BOTH speed range trips)

Windows up; no AC.

Once the big SUVs get rolling at high speeds, the propagandized Al Gore Hubbard AeroDianetics theory disappears.

55 mph was originally intended to save lives. Saving gas is a myth. For decades, engine manufacturers said 70 mph was their most efficient speed (vis a vis RPMs). Now, like doubting Global Warming, they're afraid to mention the 70 mph fact. :shades:

thegreatoz · May 2008

"Toyota ought to wake up to the unrealized market it has here with the Yaris."

Toyota could care less; they're selling plenty of putt-putt Yaris engines for the SmartCar US market.

IMHO, Toyota's quality has been going downhill for the past two years.
If you're going 'Nippon Only,' Honda is the only way to go.

lilengineerboy · May 2008

I can't see paying extra for factory "alloy wheels" with the stock crummy tires. Tirerack.com has far better options that are more competitively priced. I learned my lesson with the Accord (although that trim level has alloys and you will take them if you want that trim level).
Cruise control is a quick mouse-click to JCwhitney away.

nippononly · May 2008

Cruise control and factory alloys are just a hop, skip, and a jump away at the Honda store, where the Fit Sport has both for the same price, and the cruise is integrated on the steering wheel. (and the stock handling is better, and there is a standard tach on all models, and...) ;-)

Toyota just cheaps out so HARD these days. For a few bucks extra, Yaris could take advantage of another whole part of the market. Most buyers don't want the aftermarket hassle of tirerack and JC Whitney when they have just paid for a brand new car.

lilengineerboy · May 2008

Toyota just cheaps out so HARD these days. For a few bucks extra, Yaris could take advantage of another whole part of the market.

They always did. My non-automotive oriented sister didn't like the previous Corolla because "it felt like it was going to tip over." For $75, Toyota could've had the rear sway bar on there and it would've been fine. It was also impossible to find a model with ABS at that time.

On the Toyota website, it says that they package and equip cars how the majority of buyers want them based on regional market research, and who am I to say they are wrong. I am just not the majority.

lemmer · May 2008

That Toyota logic seems to steer my wife into a new Honda every couple of years (but they seem to be doing OK without us).

nippononly · May 2008

Yes, part of what I should be lamenting here is just how cheap American buyers are, and how low their standards are! :-P

Seriously though, part of my angst sources from the fact that I think the Yaris hatch has so many things going for it, it would be nice to see Toyota "finish the job", so to speak.

I am eager to see the 2010 Fiesta in a year, I have high hopes for that one what with the Mazda2 mechanicals. I would love to see GM bring the European Corsa here as well, to sell through the Saturn stores. It is a nicer car than GM's current sub for sale here, the Aveo.

I am interested to note that VW has skipped over subcompact entirely in its haste to bring a Smart car competitor to the States (the Up! thing from the auto show) - I hope they remember there is a size in between that and the Rabbit, and brings the Polo to the U.S. That car with the little twincharger 1.4 would be an absolute riot to drive, and would probably pull some very decent mpgs as well.

boaz47 · May 2008

Yes, part of what I should be lamenting here is just how cheap American buyers are, and how low their standards are!

The American buyer is only cheap when buying a cheap car. Put them in a mid sized or something other than an entry level sub compact and they option them out with wheels, sun roof, cruise control and navigation center. I do agree that factory upgraded wheels suck compared to after market offerings at better prices.

It is just that if you are looking for a economy car like a Yaris in most cases you aren't looking for upgrades. All you are interested in is getting from point A to point B using the least amount of fuel for the least amount out the door. If you are willing to spend more money why get a sub compact? There is simply not all that much advantage in getting a sub compact for 17k if you are close with a mid sized with more options.

But after we get back from Colorado I still believe I will get a EV. For my weekly errands there is nothing more than 5 miles from me and the power useage will not be much more than a 150 watt bulb burning for 7 hours. If things don't level off I simply am not interested in a sub compact if they are planning on releasing plug in hybrids or even some Honda EVs by 2010 or 2011. If we are going to get stuck with a little car it might as well be one with real savings and not the stop gap that cars like the Fit and Smart are. As far as fuel mileage goes I can still remember car pooling with a guy in his Rabbit Diesel in 1989 and getting 40 MPG going to and from work commuting together. My neighbor was getting 49 MPG in his Metro not much later. 19 years later 39 doesn't seem like we have made much progress. But it does show people will give up mileage for comfort and safety.

lilengineerboy · May 2008

I think this statement:
It is just that if you are looking for a economy car like a Yaris in most cases you aren't looking for upgrades. All you are interested in is getting from point A to point B using the least amount of fuel for the least amount out the door. If you are willing to spend more money why get a sub compact? There is simply not all that much advantage in getting a sub compact for 17k if you are close with a mid sized with more options.

And this one:
But it does show people will give up mileage for comfort and safety.

Are a little at odds with each other. The crux of your argument, which I agree with, is that there isn't enough savings in mileage to warrant going to a smaller vehicle. An example would be my Accord getting in the mid-30s while smaller vehicles only get in the upper 30s. I think people will give up most things for comfort and safety, it just so happens that there isn't enough of an increase in FE to justify the move to a sub-compact. If smaller vehicles were truly competitive in a mass market non-paranoia setting, people would be willing to pay for it.

boaz47 · May 2008

But it does show people will give up mileage for comfort and safety.

What I was trying to say is we had 50 MPG cars 20 years ago. The sub compact of today does not get better fuel mileage than they did. The reasoning I get from sub compact apoligests is that safety equipment and increased comfort had added weight and so I shouldn't expect better fuel mileage from today's econo-boxes. That was my point. The question I ask is why shouldn't I? 20 years ago my Ford 3/4 ton got 9 MPG no matter how you drove it or what you were hauling. My last Chevy 3/4 ton got 12 to 14. Newer car, heavier and safer and still gets better fuel mileage. My son had an old Bronco that got 9 to 11 miles to the gallon. My Tahoe gets 14 - 16. 20 years newer and gets better fuel mileage. I understand the brand new Tahoe hybrid does even better.

The sub compact manufacturers are simply making excuses for selling sub compacts that get compact or mid sized car fuel mileage. If the Rabbit and Metro and Justy were high mileage sub compacts that got better than 40 MPG why 20 years later do we get 15k sub compacts that get 35MPG?

We know plug in hybrids are on the way and maybe even some EVs that can be used for commuting. We know Honda is working hard on Fuel cells and we might even get some small diesels. So if fuel savings are our goal then my contention is the new small sub compacts don't deliver on the promise. Better than a F-150 but a F-150 does better than they did 20 years ago, not worse.

What I was saying about thongs leveling off is if fuel gets to 5 bucks a gallon it is still a bargain compared to Europe and once we adjusted to it we would want more than what the sub compacts we now have will offer. But if they want to stay in the public eye they will have to do better than 35 MPG. But I don't hold out much hope for a quality sub compact or micro car from VW. It will get great fuel mileage I am sure but you will get to know the service department by name and will only visit you car on weekends. Dependability isn't something we see a lot of in VWs in the US. Every time I pull up the annual JD powers Dependability I start at the bottom and always find VW within the first few makes. Kia has to be breathing a sigh of relief whe they realize they are rated more dependable than a VW.

nippononly · May 2008

"The American buyer is only cheap when buying a cheap car. Put them in a mid sized or something other than an entry level sub compact and they option them out with wheels, sun roof, cruise control and navigation center."

LOL!

Most popular Camry is the 4-cylinder LE, no roof, no NAV, and no "wheels" (although every succeeding year is a new race to see just how cheap they can make the "standard deluxe" wheel covers look! :-P)

Ditto Accord, LX being the most popular trim in this case: no NAV, no roof, and no "wheels" (although their wheel covers generally look better than Toyota's!)

2 most popular cars in America.

Don't get me started on 3 and 4 (maybe soon to be 1 and 2): Civic and Corolla.

I wonder how many F-150 "King Ranch"es Ford sold?! Eddie Bauer Explorers?!

I have infinite faith in the ability of the American car buyer to be cheap. :-)

andre1969 · May 2008

Even further up the ranks, it seems like cheaper editions usually outsell the pricier ones by a wide margin. One exception that pops into my mind is the Chrysler 300 when it first came out. For awhile, 40% of them were the Hemi model. That left the 2.7 base, 3.5 Touring, and 3.5 Limited to scrap for the remaining 60%. In this case, while the Hemi didn't account for the majority of sales, it's a safe bet it was still the most popular trim level. I'm sure that's changed nowadays though!

With my Intrepid, the vast majority were base models (also known as "SE" after 2000). In this case, I imagine a lot of the cheap models were getting dumped into rental fleets and that biased the numbers. With the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, most buyers would spring for the base model. Ditto the Century and Regal, although I dunno how it is with the LaCrosse these days. When the LeSabre was still around, most of them were Customs and not Limiteds, but again, I don't know how the blend is with the Lucerne.

It wasn't always this way, though. Back in the 80's and even the 70's, it seemed like the upper trim levels would often be the more popular sellers. For instance, starting in 1977, the Chevy Caprice started to outsell the Impala. While they had different names, they were really just different trim levels of the same car. Similarly, at Pontiac, the Bonneville started to outsell the Catalina, and by a wide margin. With Buick and Olds, I think it the nicer versions of the Delta and LeSabre usually outsold the cheaper ones. I'm sure it was different with cheaper, smaller cars, though. And in the later part of the 80's and early 90's, it seemed like the tides started shifting back, to the cheaper trim levels getting more of the sales.

I wonder if this was a reflection on consumer tastes, or just a result of dumping into fleets?

Oh, one of my coworkers recently bought an '08 Camry. She went for the cheap CE model, saying the LE was a waste of money. I dunno if it is or not...I haven't paid enough attention to the two to compare them.

With the Corolla, I wonder if the cheap CE outsells the LE? My uncle's '03 is a CE, but for what it is I always thought it was fairly well equipped. The only thing I really wish it had is power windows and a better seating position.

boaz47 · May 2008

But what ever people buy off the lot is not always represented by what they drive after they buy it. Look at the after market. These store are every where. I can't think of many cities that don't have two, three or four tire and wheel stores in them. I have never had a car that was bone stock except a commuter or grocery getter. My weekend car or favorite car has always had different wheels and tires. In most cases it has a sound system upgrade and at least cold air and maybe a cat back exhaust. And that is reflected by what most manufacturers are having to offer stock. How many people option out for manual windows and no air any more? In another forum we have discovered that a basic car doesn't have to come in a manual anymore. more than 90 percent of these little commuters seem to be sold as automatics so at least the American consumer doesn't cheap out on their transmission choices because in most cases they pay more for the automatic.

I just believe what people consider cheap is that American consumer tend too expect more car for more money and in the case of sub compacts that is frustrating. Sure they will pay more for the Mini Cooper but that is because it represents more than transportation. They aren't willing to pay Mini Copper prices for a Yaris because it has a different image.

look at the car comercials and see what Madison Avenue considers important. You advertise to the wants of the consumer and it seems as if People want things like a voice command radio far more than a hand cranked window, manual seats adjusting entry level car with no air and no Cruise control.

Andre you seem to hang with a crowd that likes some of the older cars. what is the more popular and what is more sought for? Looking at some of the car auctions I see people are willing pay more for a Chevy SS that a Stock Malibu.

andre1969 · May 2008

Andre you seem to hang with a crowd that likes some of the older cars. what is the more popular and what is more sought for? Looking at some of the car auctions I see people are willing pay more for a Chevy SS that a Stock Malibu.

Well, at the Mopar show I go to in Carlisle, I'd say the most popular car out there on the field is the Dart/Valiant/Duster. So there ya have it, the small car reigns supreme! (hey, it was considered a compact back in its day. :P ) I'd say the Barracuda/Challenger are a close second in popularity (again, another compact!). Midsized musclecars, like the Charger, GTX, Roadrunner, etc, are also really popular.

With the Ford show, the Mustang probably has the best turnout, and with GM it's the Camaro. So there ya have it, small cars rule even on the old car circuit!

podred · May 2008

It is just that if you are looking for a economy car like a Yaris in most cases you aren't looking for upgrades. All you are interested in is getting from point A to point B using the least amount of fuel for the least amount out the door.

If you are willing to spend more money why get a sub compact? There is simply not all that much advantage in getting a sub compact for 17k if you are close with a mid sized with more options.

As far as getting from point A to point B, I agree, people with this mentality are passengers that just happen to sit behind the steering wheel. By this I mean people that view their cars as a form of transportation. Everyday mundane plain vanilla transportation. They want to get in, start it and go, paying as little attention to driving as they can get away with. For them it's more about cup holders, eating while driving, talking on the phone while driving. Anything to keep themselves entertained. Like smashing into the car in front of them because they were busy looking at the floor having just dropped their french fries.

If you are willing to spend more money why get a sub compact? That's easy, because small sporty performance cars are a lot of fun if you are a Driver. The very reason I have so much invested in my Mini Cooper S is because I'm a driver. I enjoy driving and the fun it brings to those of us who are not so stressed out that life is a handful of anti-depressants every morning.

In addition, my relatively underpowered Yaris 2 door hatchback is also a lot of fun, it's so short that parking is a pleasure, and one can actually zip around at a brisk pace. At that price point it's like getting a deal at your favorite store. Yes it's no Porsche, but one does not expect it to be. After all it sips fuel, costs next to nothing to insure, and the tires properly maintained will last an extremely long time. Now take that car and add a thousand or two in options from Toyota (if they offered them) and it would sell an even greater numbers,as much like myself there are a lot of small car lovers out there. Bigger? I don't want bigger. I have no use for bigger. Why do I want do drive an ugly or plain 4 door family car? I'm not bashing those who do, as to each their own. The argument is valid in the case of the person that actually Needs the space. However there are many of us that would much rather have a nimble fun short wheelbase car. Until you actually owned one and driven it for a period of time, you have no idea just how much fun they can be.

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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