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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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Comments

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The Corolla began as a great car, then flogged by the minions, what can one expect... beat to crap....NOT garbage by any means.

    Eh, it is a tippy, non-responsive, dull appliance of a transport. The base model doesn't even have sway bars. Its a pretty miserable drive (perhaps not the new '09, but so far the reports haven't been too encouraging).

    In contrast to a Civic, which feels more responsive, handles better, and has no drawbacks relative to the Corolla.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Playing devil's advocate here, but the Corolla does have a much smoother highway ride than the Civic, with less "fidgety" steering.

    I do share your sentiments about the Corolla's lack of personality, or any "fun" pretenses whatsoever. The Civic is a RACE car in comparison.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Playing devil's advocate here, but the Corolla does have a much smoother highway ride than the Civic, with less "fidgety" steering.

    Valid point, it seems one is tuned for luxury and one is tuned for sport. I didn't care for the highway ride of the Corolla because as a passenger, I felt it bordered on wallowy.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I actually didn't; I thought it had a very nice ride for a compact car, much better than my father's Civic. If I'm behind the wheel, though, give me the Civic ANY day.
  • podredpodred Member Posts: 127
    Putting my remarks into context, my earlier statment "The Corolla began as a great car" I stand by. However that is keeping it in the context of what that car was designed for. As far as a Civic, which I did not reference in my earlier post, I also believe that is a great car as well. These are two cars in the same class that simply are engineered a bit differently to reflect the overall values of Toyota & Honda. Both world class car companies. To argue which is the sportiest, or has the best ride is a natural argument based on the drivers preferences. It's an argument that is held about any two competitors models no matter what class, price, model, body style, etc.

    That said, having owned both Corollas and Hondas of the same year my personal preferences aside (Honda) I remain steadfast in my claim that they are both great cars......... :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm surprised the Civic vs. Corolla thread isn't more active, but I figure the Corolla owners are asleep in their garages after driving home. :)

    Just kidding (for the most part, :cry: ).
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Toyotas are for people that can't handle the excitement of Hondas.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Drive a new Accord and tell me how much excitement you experienced. When I did, my answer was "not much". They are losing the Accord to the U.S. middle market.

    As for the next-gen Fit, they have already said they softened the suspension to "smooth out" that great handling, in order to achieve a better ride. I used to call this Camry-ization, but I'm going to start calling it Accord-ization. :-(

    More articles out there today on the predicament Mini finds itself in: no more cars available to ship for dealer stock for the remainder of this year.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I'm not too excited about the new Accord either. Come to think of it, I am not too excited about any new cars. They all seem to get heavier and softer with each new generation.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    ...that the buyer ratings on the smart and Yaris (9.4) are higher (slightly) than the Fit (9.2)...go figure :confuse:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Statisically insignificant if you ask me.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Yes, nothing big, but the folks that wanted the smart must have REALLY wanted it, and the objective problems most reviewers have found with it just didn't matter to them. I wonder how many more folks like that there are out there :confuse:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I have been dipping into the "Real World MPG" threads from time to time, and I think there are proportionally more folks having a hard time getting great gas mileage in the Fit than in the other models. Since some of them were probably downsizers looking for superlative fuel economy, it might have contributed to extra disappointment vs the other two....just a thought, as I agree with the above that it could easily be statistically insignificant.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I used to call this Camry-ization, but I'm going to start calling it Accord-ization.

    The proper term is "Buick-ify". There's a reason Toyota is called Japan's Buick.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well Buick now sells less total vehicles than Toyota sells Camrys and Honda sells Accords, so it seemed appropriate to update the term. :-/

    Heck, the sale of Minis, Fits, and Yarises exceeds by a goodly margin Buick's total sales, and all 3 of those models were constrained by production capacity from meeting full demand (hatchbacks only, in the case of the Yaris).

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    But Buick is a mentality more than a brand...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota gets a lot of flack but let's face it - a lot of people just want a quiet, comfortable car that gets them from point A to point B. There is a reason they are the #1 car company in the world.

    Yes, our Sienna is not very exciting, and the steering has less feedback than my Nintendo Wii Remote (a lot less....), but so what? It's a freaking family hauler, not a sports car. It is a lot quieter than the Odyssey, rides smoother, my kids can watch movies while my wife sleeps, and I can drive in total peace.

    Being "boring" or "dull" or whatever you want to call it doesn't make them bad cars. They are designed to be isolated. That's intentional.

    If you don't like them, don't buy them, but you can't say it's better or worse, it's all a matter of what you want. For people that want quiet isolation, IMO Toyota > Honda.

    It's incredible how many people can't understand that.

    I'm not targeting my rant at you or anyone specifically, just at the general attitude enthusiasts have towards Toyota. If your aunt asks you to recommend a quiet car, tell her to get a Toyota, odds are she'll thank you for it.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
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  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Wow, I'm not quite sure what I did to spur those comments. I believe we were talking about how they were updating the Fit to handle worse, but provide a smoother ride while doing so. I called it Camry-ization, simply because that is what the Camry is: quiet, smooth, a very poor handler. They would have to GUT the Fit to make it handle as poorly as a Camry, and I'm sure they won't. Camry-ization is a process, not an overnight transformation. ;-)

    Beyond that, I have driven many many MANY miles at the wheel of my friend's Sienna at this point, and I would agree that in a van what do you really want besides smooth power and ride, lots of isolation from road noise, maybe some decent emergency handling (which I'm not convinced the Sienna would have, but I haven't tried - not my van!). Sienna scores well in the areas that van buyers would prioritize, I imagine. The proof is in the pudding - it's the best-selling minivan now, right? Me, I would find another way to transport my family, unless I had more fannies than a 5-seat sedan could accomodate. Or if I was wealthy enough, I would have the Sienna just for highway trips - that van really excels in that area - little noise intrudes, the ride is sooo smooth, power is good and brakes are decent, and it tracks straight without requiring lots of steering input, despite the high sides.

    I would have 2 subcompacts for the rest of the time! ;-)

    Oh, and as regards this: For people that want quiet isolation, IMO Toyota > Honda.
    I would just say this is completely 100% true in every class of car there is where the two go head to head. Even between the Fit and the Yaris, it is evident after 1 minute of driving that the Honda is noisier, with a busier ride. The trade-off is the Yaris isn't as good a handler, and the Fit is more fun to drive.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sorry, again, it wasn't targeted at you, in fact I mentioned that. Yours was just the last post on the subject.

    It's not even limited to comments I've heard in this thread. It's just this overall sentiment towards Toyota from enthusiasts, that comfort and quiet are seemingly bad things. Not so, if that is what a buyer is looking for.

    I think when "Camry" is used as an adjective, it's almost always condescending. Yet it's the best selling car in America, so Toyota is just giving people what they want.

    If a Camry could talk, it would reponse like so....

    Sure, I'm soft and isolated, and don't handle like a sports car, but 2/3rds of Americans are overweight and need the room and enjoy the comfort, and could not fit in the Recaro seats of an EVO X if their life depended on it. And my cup holders are better so there. :P

    :D
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    I came across an archive article on the C/D web site where they tried to 'hypermile' a '74 Pinto. Amazing numbers:
    Base car at steady 70 mph: 14.6 mpg (honest!)
    Max with all add on (radial tires, aero ads, 2 blade fan): 18.1 mpg

    Makes a 35 mpg Fit look pretty good....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Agreed, but what I'm saying is that I think folks like C&D don't realize that it is indeed subjective.

    And when they evaluate minivans, maybe spend less time at the track, and more time car-pooling, carrying people and their stuff, which is what vans do.

    They even complained that the 3rd row was hard to fold, and gushed over the Dodge's power folding ones - yet Toyota offered them first!

    Most cases of beer! In all configurations. Game Over for me. LOL

    Any how, rant over, back to subcompacts. Hopefully a few more people will understand that some people intentionally choose ride over handling.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    That's really pretty sad when you consider I could get 22-23 mpg out of a '69 Dart slant six, doing 70-75 mph with the a/c going full blast, and a few passengers in the car.

    Now sure, cars got worse in the 70's, but I've been able to get about 17.4 out of my '76 LeMans, 350-4bbl, and 18 out of my '79 New Yorker, 360-2bbl.

    I have heard thought, that 1974 was about the worst year ever for fuel economy. All that rudimentary smog crap really hurt fuel economy, and when the catalytic converter came out for 1975, it actually improved things alot.
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    I think your comments were well put, actually. I personally think "fun to drive" is overrated. Another condescending term is "appliance". My Corolla, and my rental Yaris, for that matter, are plain-jane, and I like them that way. I live in an apartment complex, and I don't want a car that says, "hey, look at me, I've got something to steal inside". So long as it's not ugly, the more people think my car is boring, the better!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think your comments were well put, actually. I personally think "fun to drive" is overrated. Another condescending term is "appliance". My Corolla, and my rental Yaris, for that matter, are plain-jane, and I like them that way. I live in an apartment complex, and I don't want a car that says, "hey, look at me, I've got something to steal inside". So long as it's not ugly, the more people think my car is boring, the better!

    I personally feel that if I am going to spend time driving, it might as well be enjoyable. I am not talking about styling, I am talking about driving experience.

    I don't understand your reference about stealing something out of one car more than another or what you feel would draw attention to one car more than the others. If you are getting your needs met, I think you made the right decision for your situation.
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    Well, I wasn't addressing you, so that may have a lot to do with it. I'll try to explain what I was referring to, though.

    I don't want a car that people are going to envy and want to steal all or part of it. I could have bought an "exciting" car that's maybe less reliable, or a "boring" car that I can count on and has lower insurance rates - the dreaded "appliance". I chose a boring, attractive car. My driving experience in my boring car is OK. It's the interior of the car that makes the driving experience for me rather than the exterior anyway, in my view, which for me means as long as I have my music and am comfortable and safe, I'm fine.

    I personally equate "fun-to-drive" with "driving like an idiot". I don't need that. Slow and sensible wins the race.

    I'm really not expecting anyone to "understand" this point of view. It's just that the other poster made some very good points that I agree with. And yes, I am getting my needs met by my choice.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Well, I wasn't addressing you, so that may have a lot to do with it. I'll try to explain what I was referring to, though

    I understand, I didn't mean to come across as critical of your choices; thats why we have choices, so everyone can get their needs met.

    I don't want a car that people are going to envy and want to steal all or part of it. I could have bought an "exciting" car that's maybe less reliable, or a "boring" car that I can count on and has lower insurance rates - the dreaded "appliance".

    I think this might be where we differentiate things. An interesting or exciting car need not scream "steal me" nor spend all of its days in the service bay. I haven't lost a vehicle (or any part) to theft nor have I spent a lot of time in the dealer's service department waiting room, and yet I have still found rides I would consider enjoyable. With the exception of my current vehicle, I wouldn't have considered any of my cars as appliances.

    My driving experience in my boring car is OK. It's the interior of the car that makes the driving experience for me rather than the exterior anyway, in my view, which for me means as long as I have my music and am comfortable and safe, I'm fine.

    To that end, I definitely agree with your decision, the Corolla gives a Lexus-like
    feeling inside until you actually touch anything.

    I personally equate "fun-to-drive" with "driving like an idiot". I don't need that. Slow and sensible wins the race.

    Its interesting that you implied that enjoying a drive is "driving like an idiot" but compared your driving style with racing.

    I'm really not expecting anyone to "understand" this point of view. It's just that the other poster made some very good points that I agree with. And yes, I am getting my needs met by my choice.

    That, my fellow forum contributor, is what its all about (to the contrary of those that feel putting your left foot in and shaking it around is what its all about).
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    Its interesting that you implied that enjoying a drive is "driving like an idiot" but compared your driving style with racing.

    It's a fable, "The Tortoise and the Hare," about who wins in life, not just about racing: the hot shot showoff or the nondescript but reliable plodder. I thought the terminology was appropos!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It's a fable, "The Tortoise and the Hare," about who wins in life, not just about racing: the hot shot showoff or the nondescript but reliable plodder.

    Its the link between fun cars and exhibitionism I don't understand.

    And that somehow driving a penalty box gets you further ahead.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The Fit is notably more fun to drive than the Yaris, for about the same money and without anything in the way of exhibitionism. You usually don't get too much flashiness in a $15K hatchback, and the Fit is no exception.

    Some of the upcoming subs will fit that mold too, like the Fiesta, the new Aveo5 and the Beat that will replace it in a couple of years. Others like the Hornet and of course the existing Mini Cooper give you more flash, but often you pay extra for "flash", and the Mini is no exception. I wonder how they will price the Hornet when it arrives (courtesy of Chery Motors Inc). Seeing as its Chinese, I expect it will be low-priced.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thanks for the vote of confidence.

    Your response was timely because either last night or the night before someone broke in to my flashy convertible (Miata) and stole all the change out of the center console.

    It unfortunately does draw unwanted attention. :(

    At least there wasn't anything valuable in it.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    'Cause they are pretty DARN good!

    From Automotive News, for 2008 sales through June 30:

    Fit: up 67% from 2007
    Accent: up 48.9%
    Rio: up 29.1%
    Yaris: up 39%
    Mini Cooper: up 33.6%

    And if you're counting Versa (debatable for inclusion in this category, IMO), it is up 20.7%.

    And for those of you tracking the ForTwo, they sold 11,399 of them by midyear, and that wasn't a full six months of sales by any means.

    The only one that wasn't up in a big way (about flat instead) was the Aveo, which I think was partly because a lot of the Aveos were going to fleets last year, and GM is still cutting back on its rental fleet sales.

    http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA5240487.PDF

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    The only one that wasn't up in a big way (about flat instead) was the Aveo, which I think was partly because a lot of the Aveos were going to fleets last year, and GM is still cutting back on its rental fleet sales.

    Well, there was the xA, down a whopping 99.6%. :P

    Considering how bad off the economy supposedly is, I'm surprised that total car sales are staying as strong as they are. The grand total comes out to 3.989M, down from 4.059M. That's only a 1.7% drop. Now a lot of that is redistribution, as sales of smaller cars are increasing while bigger and more premium categories are dropping.

    Still, it looks like people are buying. I guess truck sales might tell a different story, though.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    You DO know the xA was discontinued in 2006, right?! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think we might have to limit the sales discussion to those cars still FOR SALE this year. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, the xA got a lot bigger, especially the standard engine. So it went in the wrong direction, or at least the opposite direction compared to where consumers were heading.

    Bad timing.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yes, it now uses the same engine as the new Corolla and Matrix, and is about the same size and mileage as the Matrix.

    It is significant to note that while Toyota dealers can't keep Corollas in stock, Matrixes are piling up in unprecedented numbers. While Matrix has a lot more utiltity than the Corolla sedan, it also consumes at least 20% more gas, making it less popular in times of $4 gas. The same applies to the xD (replacement for the xA).

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's too bad.

    In Brazil they actually sell a Corolla Fielder, which is a Corolla wagon. An no it looks nothing at all like a Matrix.

    I'd pick that for the extra space, better visibility, plus better mileage to boot.

    image

    My brother is shopping for a Hyundai Tucson and I suggested one of those as an alternative. Both are FWD and the Fielder actually costs less in Brazil.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    It would be SO cool if Toyota offered a proper Corolla wagon in the U.S. again! They are too hung up on the popularity of SUVs and crossvers. I guess we are lucky we even get the Matrix.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Look at the window between the C and D pillars. Now that's a true wagon.

    The one in the Matrix has almost vanished. Visibility isn't nearly as good, and keeps getting worse.

    Toyota dealers will gladly sell you an extra-cost backup cam, I'm sure.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I bed that rear side window is still about half as big as it looks from the outside, thanks to the flush-mounted glass. But yeah, it's still got much better visibility than the Matrix would have. I remember the first time I got behind the wheel of a Dodge Magnum wagon...as little as those windows look from the outside, they're positively slit-like from the inside looking out!
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Well if you want a good small wagon Hyundai is bringing back the Elantra wagon. I have one of the old ones and it has been great as far as reliability goes (well over 150K miles) and has plenty of utility, I would suspect that the new one would be as good.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The old one looked like a bull frog, got any pics of the new one? That would have a lot of potential...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hmm, it's more of a 5 door hatch, in a way, but it looks quite nice IMO:

    image
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    it's just funny to see the crv is morphing back into a civic wagon after all these years
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    it's just funny to see the crv is morphing back into a civic wagon after all these years

    Oh that's an Elantra wagon. The CR-V is actually morphing into something that you'd use to smuggle 500 cases of Coors from Texarkanna to Atlanta with a '77 Trans Am running blocker for you!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I doubt that a 2.4L I4 can haul that much beer in that big of a hurry, with time to stop at the choke-n-puke along the way. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It does sort of look like a CR-V from the profile, though Volvo was first to do those kind of tail lights.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    looking at this week's Autoweek, and does anyone besides me wish like crazy that they would bring the 500 Abarth and the new MiTo over to the States? ;-)

    Both look like a lot of fun, especially the Abarth.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    since you were able to post the link to that pdf file for car sales at the 2008 halfway mark, could you do it for truck sales, too? I'm curious to see how badly they've been whacked so far this year.
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