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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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Comments

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Forecast: Small-car flood to swamp residuals

    December 14, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

    If you want a vehicle that will hold its value, buy a big SUV rather than a small car, the experts at Kelley Blue Book say.

    Automakers, under pressure to meet tighter fuel economy rules, are about to flood the market with so many small, fuel-efficient vehicles that the residuals of those vehicles will fall, predicts Eric Ibara, director of residual consulting for Kelley Blue Book.

    Gasoline prices are expected to stabilize below $3.50 a gallon for the next three to five years, also lessening demand for fuel-efficient vehicles, Ibara says.

    Kelley projects lower 2010 residual values for brands such as Honda, Toyota and Volkswagen than it did in 2009 because their lines include many small, fuel-efficient vehicles.

    ....Honda was Kelley Blue Book's No. 1 brand in its 2009 residual-value analysis with a projected residual of 44.5 percent after five years. But in Kelley's projections for 2010, Honda's projected residuals shed 6.5 percentage points, and the brand dipped to No. 3.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20091214/RETAIL04/312149975/1132

    Poor old Honda. ;-)

    So what about the "flood"of crappy pick-ups that are on the market right now? Why aren't their residuals impacted? The top two sellers even in this lousy market are still the F-150 and the Silverado/Sierra twins.

    I don't know about those gas price predictions either. Gas never went below $2.90 in my area this year, even now in the low season and with oil down $10/bbl since summer. I laugh when I see those TV ads boasting that the Hemi in the Ram makes 20 mpg highway. What a joke (and not a good one).

    But I will be surprised if Honda's residuals stay out of the #1 spot for very long. It IS true that for non-premium subcompacts, residual value isn't very good. Aveo and Yaris values drop like a rock.....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Forecast: Small-car flood to swamp residuals

    Sounds like an attempt at second-line/vested interest marketing for SUV's, but maybe that's just me being cynical. We've had small, efficient(ish) cars here in Europe for years but they still hold value better than the big stuff; which is usually bought by companies, against tax, written down over 3 years and sold into the used-car market where they make brilliant buys for those wanting that sort of thing "on the cheap".

    Once had a conversation with a colleague about this subject. I'd just changed my Skoda Fabia and he was changing his BMW 540i. His side of the debate went as follows :

    "See, your little Skoda depreciated by just over 30% whilst my big Beemer only dropped by 25%. Ergo, my BMW was a better buy, financially". Invited him to do the most basic math; Skoda dropped 30% of £11k and his big BMW dropped 25% of £35k.........plus the difference in 3 years running costs of 1.9TDi vs 4.0 V8 gasser. His response ?

    "Well, my BMW was a much nicer car than you crappy little Skoda".

    Hard to argue with that sort of logic. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The market will balance itself out.

    If residuals fall and used ones become cheap, fewer people buy new, and automakers reduce supply of new compacts.

    Then the used values will go back up again.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    I HOPE all of that is true. I've been surfing the classifieds for a few months now looking for a small car and I've been finding them incredibly overpriced compared to, say, a year ago.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,591
    Yeah, I see the same thing on used subcompacts...dealers seem to think its summer 2008 with their asking prices. Private party is not much better.

    Nippon, I'm in the Bay Area now too, but I haven't seen the Yaris values drop a lot here. As for the Aveo, well, 'value' is a realtive term, right? :blush:

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    was there some kind of reporting about him? i seem to remember a story about someone who did the same thing during the gas prices spike.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    I decided to make a few random comparisons using my Galves book. Here are some interesting numbers I've noticed:

    an '04 Mazda3s has the same value as an '04 RX8 and '04 Mazda6s. Same thing with VW; an '04 Jetta GL is the same as an '04 Passat GL. Focus and Taurus are also the same. And an '04 Saturn Ion is actually work a few hundred more than an '04 L300.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    Yarises don't seem to be particularly cheap in my neck of the woods. I just searched the inventory at my local Fitzmall, which is where I did a lot of hunting when I was looking for a car, and the cheapest Yaris they had was this $9585 2007 sedan with 55,700 miles on it. It has a manual tranny and crank windows, and I guess is about as strippo as you can make a Yaris. I'm guessing a/c is standard on them.

    That just seems like a lot of money to me, for a 3 year old stripper economy car with 55K on it! For about $2400 more, they have this 2008 S model, with 16000 fewer miles. That extra price also gets you alloy wheels, automatic, power windows/locks, and cruise. But that's still a $12K car, and just seems like an awful lot of money for what it is. But, I imagine they're pricing them like this because there's a market for them!
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,591
    Yeah, terrible value. I'm also seeing ex-rental '08 Elantras fully equipped, even moonroof, for $9800ish. Sonatas too, if you want to go big. Makes a used Yaris, or a Versa seem like a poor choice, and I like the Yaris.

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I remember some reports about people fixing up Metros (and Justys iirc) and selling them for crazy money. She didn't say anything about her dad getting in the paper though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Funny thing is gas prices have settled down, and even dropped a bit.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    One of the local used car lots has an '09 Versa S with only 5000 miles listed for $11,995. It won't let me link the actual car, but the website is http://www.melvinmotors.com if anyone wants to check it out. Kinda makes me wonder what's wrong with it, because to me that actually sounds reasonable! Of course, it's a model year old now, and, while low-mileage, still a used car. And it's still pretty basic, although it does have a/c, automatic, and a CD player. Oh, it's also the clunkier sedan model.

    Those Hyundai Elantras and Sonatas are definitely a lot of car for the money. They still seem to depreciate pretty quickly, even though Hyundai has a good quality reputation these days. So I guess that makes them a winner all over...cheap AND dependable! I would've considered checking out a used Sonata when I was on the car hunt. A couple months ago a friend of mine had a Kia Spectra for a rental while his '04 Crown Vic was in the shop. I rode around in it a little bit, and thought it was a respectable little car.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,591
    Yeah, I'm thinking used Hyundais are in a perfect vortex right now. The quality is really good, but the general public hasn't fully caught on yet. So the resale is still kinda bad, based on an old reputation that no longer really applies. Win-win for a smart consumer. Jeez, there's a local '08 Sonata GLS with 30k miles, yeah its an ex-rental, but at $9988, its awfully hard to beat. I like the Elantra. I like the Accent, especially the SE, but they are still subject to the weird subcompact premium that we're talking about here...the others are a better deal. And there's very little gas mileage penalty.

    I like the Yaris, and love the 1st gen Fit, but they just don't pencil as a used buy...

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    spam alert !!!
    :lemon:
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    Re. the Elantra, and Hyundai in general... we bought a 2006 Elantra GLS automatic in December 2005, and it has been absolutely rock-solid reliable. It's had no warranty issues, or any glitches of any kind since purchase. I've been a import car buyer/owner since 1968, and with my experience, one kind of gets a "gut feel" of what's really good or bad in the market, regardless of what conventional or historical wisdom tells you. I looked at everything on the market in the Elantra's class in December 2005, drove them all, and felt this was really a good car (period), not factoring the money aspect. And, this is the previous generation Elantra! Out the door price was $13.5K. My thoughts have been rewarded, as the car is still like new 4 years after purchase. I don't worry about residuals, as I'm still driving a 1985 SAAB 900 - so that should illustrate how long I keep a car.

    Compared to a 1996 Honda Civic and 2001 Toyota Corolla we've owned, the Elantra is head and shoulders above both in terms of lack of problems, warranty recalls, and reliability. Frankly, I'm impressed with Hyundai, and I've had a great experience with our local dealer too which is icing on the cake.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    The Elantra is a good car. I had a 2000 wagon for nine years and around 170+k miles. Only issue was an exhaust manifold that cracked at about 130K miles which Hyundai replaced free of charge (apparently they got a bad batch and extended the warranty on them to 10 years unlimited miles). Great car, I was sad to give it up.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    spam alert !!!

    Gee, you don't think a post from a Delhi member about a F-150 Supercab qualifies as subcompact talk? mmm, spam for breakfast. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Talk about hitting the wrong target audience!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    Talk about hitting the wrong target audience!

    Yeah, but by some standards (EPA, for instance), it IS a subcompact! But then, so are some Rolls Royce and Bentley models. :surprise:
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    Well, you can get a NEW versa S sedan with auto for a hair over $13k ($1250 in rebates on them right now), so I don't think $12k is reasonable for a year old one.

    BUT... trade-in is right around $10k on it, so $12k is actually a decent price. I just don't see how it makes sense from a buyer's perspective.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Used car values are still totally screwed up from the combination of the implosion of leasing and the huge drop in new car sales. For a while when Volvo was closing out the 2009 S60s we were selling year old certified 2008 S60s with say 15,000 miles for within 1,500 dollars of brand new 2009 S60s.

    Most people bought the new ones but a couple bought used. Things are a little better now but still screwy.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    if you COULD get one of these, would you be interested at all?....

    Aston Martin reveals the Cygnet city-car concept

    Today we're getting a first peek at the curious pairing of Aston Martin and Toyota with the release of official pictures of the Aston Martin Cygnet concept.

    The car is being billed as a luxury commuter ride for urban areas. It's a Toyota iQ with a restyled front end with Aston Martin's styling cues.


    http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091216/CARNEWS/912169998

    I DO think it looks better as an Aston than as a Toyota. :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    is a Fiat 500 Abarth-fighter.

    image

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • lostwrench1lostwrench1 Member Posts: 1,165
    A subcompact can have no more than 99 cu. ft. of passenger and cargo volume combined.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Ford announced the prices for the 2011 Fiesta:

    Ford bets customers will pay premium prices for the Fiesta

    Ford Motor Co. will charge more than $23,000 for a fully loaded Fiesta, a new car smaller than the Focus.

    ..."The price is out there, and we already have 1,000 orders," said Jim Farley, Ford's group vice president of global marketing. "Americans have shown us if we bring out aspirational products, not only will they pay the base price, but go up."

    The 2011 Fiesta, which goes on sale in summer, starts at $13,995 including shipping for the four-door sedan. The base five-door Fiesta starts at $15,795. The Focus starts at $16,535 including shipping.


    http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091221/CARNEWS/912219994

    I forget when they are going to dump the crap-ola current Focus for the one on the European platform - have they already done it? - but I am thinking the price will go up when they do.

    In the meantime, if that $23K Fiesta is an RS with the luxury features offered in a Mini Cooper S, people might pay it. I would be hoping for an RS a little closer to the $20K price point, but then I have no desire for xenon headlights and in-dash NAV.

    On the flip side, I bet that $14K base sedan will be pretty well stripped down, and that's a shame.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    the fiesta 's' has features like electric power steering, advancetrac stability control, and telescoping wheel, which are not available on the focus 's', which starts at about 16,200.
    the fiesta has a wheel/tire package that can add just under 2k to the price.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well isn't THAT a fine how-do-you-do! All the more reason to get that new Focus in place and bump up the base price and base feature content. They need to start focusing hard on being profitable with their small car sales.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I understand why they did it, but until they phase out the old Focus it's going to confuse consumers, big time.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    the msrp of the focus has pretty much always been meaningless.
    it's the product the buyers are going to look at.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    True, but finding that the Focus is cheaper than a Fiesta is still going to have consumer going :confuse:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Even in base model trim, the Fiesta is going to be a better-handling car than the Focus, which may reduce the :confuse: a little.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They may as well phase out the old Focus now, or offer it to rental fleets.

    At what point does the USA get the new euro Focus? Next generation?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    10 more years?! :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Reminds me of the wait for the Golf V.

    By the time it arrived here, it already looked old to me. :D
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The next gen Focus and related offspring is expected to launch late '11 as a '12, per fan-boy sites. It will launch first in Europe I believe, or maybe that was the Fiesta, which already did launch.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    That was typical VW: the Golf V WAS old by the time it got here. And the Rabbit, and....

    Another 2 years with this crapola Focus?! They need to get the Fiesta into dealerships SOON.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yup.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    but when is GM supposed to launch the Cruze? The Focus is getting a bit long in the tooth, but the Cobalt was born that way!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The Cruze comes next year, but the real question for this thread is when if ever will GM start to sell a competitive Aveo? Or will they change the name again for their next subcompact?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Given how many Aveos they sell, we can't blame them for changing it gradually.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Unfortunately, not a lot of nice things to say about it. Smart fans may want to skip this read:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1c530a/341#MSG341

    I do hope the idea succeeds, but let's see an update with a true manual trans and an engine tuned for cheap gas, please.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Will this be a premium sub when it gets here, or will it be a model line of unwieldy length? Was reading today that even though European Fiestas get many features not considered typical for subcompacts in America, such as integrated blind spot mirrors, push-button start and "intelligent" access, moonroof, hands-free Sync, 4-inch on-dash LCD multi-display, USB jacks, and ambient lighting, the base Fiesta 'S' won't get any of it.

    They will also scrap the wonderful interior of the European car, the one we have seen in pics.

    Then they will put much of that stuff back (but not all aspects of that interior I so liked) on top-trim models priced over $20K. I guess Ford wants the Fiesta to be an Aveo as well as a Mini Cooper. That never works well, as you always end up getting some Aveo components in the car you spent Cooper money for if you go with the top trim.

    The only good news is for automatic fans: a 6-speed automated manual as the transmission choice for those who don't shift for themselves, with an expected
    EPA rating of 30/40. Honda had better make some improvements to the Fit, but quick!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Will this be a premium sub when it gets here, or will it be a model line of unwieldy length? LOL the same doesn't count?

    Was reading today that even though European Fiestas get many features not considered typical for subcompacts in America, such as integrated blind spot mirrors, push-button start and "intelligent" access, moonroof, hands-free Sync, 4-inch on-dash LCD multi-display, USB jacks, and ambient lighting, the base Fiesta 'S' won't get any of it.

    Nope, but the SE and SEL get it. Are you really complaining that a $14k car doesn't have a sunroof and pushbutton start? It will actually have an LCD display on the dash, because its integrated with the radio, like the Fit and Civic.

    They will also scrap the wonderful interior of the European car, the one we have seen in pics.

    Where did you find this out? As far as I can tell, its the same or very similar (color pallet changes).

    The only good news is for automatic fans: a 6-speed automated manual as the transmission choice for those who don't shift for themselves, with an expected
    EPA rating of 30/40.


    There is no auto-manual provision to shift though, PRNDL and that is it. Its all about efficiency.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,591
    They will also scrap the wonderful interior of the European car, the one we have seen in pics.

    Link? So far, the photos of the US interior look very close to the Fiestas I saw in the UK last year...

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Are you really complaining that a $14k car doesn't have a sunroof and pushbutton start?

    I'm really complaining that they want to sell a $14K version. It should start with the SE, with SEL feature content, at $16K or so.

    Don't have links, this was out of the February print edition of Motor Trend, which probably isn't on-line yet, but I will check anyway, just in case.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Among other news today is word that in two years Toyota will start to sell a hybrid Yaris, even as they decide to dump the notion of selling the iQ here. I would have liked to check out the iQ firsthand, oh well.

    I wonder if they will manage 60 mpg with the hybrid Yaris. It's certainly small and light enough. Might give the new diesels a run for their money,will certainly give Honda a headache.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Where did you hear that about the iQ (and Yaris)?

    The Canadian press is still reporting that the iQ is coming to North America (maybe just Canada? Or maybe they are out of the loop?)

    The Yaris in a hybrid flavor is good, but adding some iQs to the fleet would be fun too.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,591
    The iQ seems to be US bound. Autoblog reported just last week that Toyota would bring a Scion-branded 5 door iQ to the US market :) AND a sedan :( . The rumors are that if the iQ flops, that the Scion brand will get pulled altogether...

    Here's the link.

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    ...........a Scion-branded 5 door iQ to the US market AND a sedan ..........

    A 5-door iQ ??? Where are they going to fit the rear doors ? On a trailer behind the car is my guess. And a sedan ? Please, God, no. :confuse:

    As for Auto 'box options; my beloved's '06 Honda Jazz, (Fit), has a 7-spd CVT transmission with the option of full-auto or steering-wheel mounted flappy paddle "manual" shifting. As far as I know, same 'box is still an option on the current Jazz here in EU. My wife never uses the "manual" option but I do, if I can sneak the keys away unchallenged. Good fun but the 1.4 engine tones down the fun compared to my Geartronic D5 Volvo.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Given the Insight was not well received, I'm not sure if Toyota should bother with a hybrid Yaris. It would have to cost too much to be worthwhile.
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