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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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Comments

  • pernaperna Member Posts: 521
    Fully loaded Versa with destination charges and tax and license in my area (7.25%) comes out to a total of: $19,200.

    Without T&L, about $17.9.

    Seems pricey for what you get.


    A fully loaded Focus comes out to $21,405.

    Plus, the Versa comes with a lot of items you can't even get on a Focus, such as sat radio, bluetooth, and push-button ignition.

    It's also physically a bigger car than the Yaris or Fit.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    really? 21.5K for a Focus? GEEZ.....

    What do you mean by "push-button" ignition? Do you mean key-less ignition (key in your pocket) or just a push button starter?
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    i checked out the latest iteration of the build it site for the Versa. An SL 6 speed, with every option except the sport package (which is how I would get one) comes out to $17,005. Still not bad IMO for all the stuff you get, some of which you cannot get at all on other cars in or near it's class, certainly not the FIt/Yaris.

    I would have to see them all in person, or at least review the specs, but it almost seems that the Versa is 1/2 size above the Fit/Yaris, and the Caliber is at least 1 size up. Although they do seem to have comparable pricing, but not mileage.

    I did sit in the Dodge, and if the Versa gives similar space, it seems to me that those 2 can be considered "real" sized cars, not the undresized "toys" that some subcompacts seem to be (like an Aveo)

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I paid 24,000 plus tax for mine back in 2004 and I got every option but nav. When everyone else was paying 800-1000 above sticker for their cars I just paid sticker on my custom ordered MINI. At the time it was the only car they had sold in that color combinations with those options.

    With no options it would have been in the 19,000 dollar range. A MINI Cooper would have been 16,000 dollar range maybe less but at only 115 hp was not nearly enough for me.

    It is a premium small car for sure there is no doubt but I bet it is the most fun to drive of all the sub compacts. Our wholesaler would have bought it off of me for $17,500 as it was. I doubt any other sub compacts are going to have a real world 71% Residual value after two years and almost 28,000 miles. If I hadn't kept it in the family so I could buy it back later I could have sold it for between 20,500 and 21,000.

    Lets just say someone really beat me up and I sold it to them for 20,000 on the button. I also put new tires all the way around on it so figure another 500 dollars for the tires plus labor.

    My expenses to drive that car for two years and just under 28,000 miles were aproximately.

    4,000 dollars depreciation.
    720 dollars sales tax
    500 dollars property tax for two years
    220 dollars for registration(I got new plates twice)
    0 dollars in maitnence since MINs have pre paid maintence
    500 dollars for tires
    2,400 dollars 100 dollars a month insurace over 24 months
    Fuel I have to really guess on this since I stopped keeping my fuel log after the first year.

    Life time average fuel economy was about 29 mpg
    Always put premium in it so we will say $2.50 a gallon
    28,000 miles divided by 29 equals 965.5 gallons times $2.50 equals $2413.75 for fuel.

    so add it up.
    $10,753.75

    About 38 cents a mile which seems a little higher then I thought it would be. I know my insurance throws it up a little bit as I was under 24 and male most of the time I owned the car.

    I am still male by the way incase you were wondering.

    Edit oops screwed up some numbers correcting.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    What do you mean by "push-button" ignition?

    At the Philly show they explained it as "keyless" (key in your pocket and push a button) ignition.

    About 4-5 weeks until I can take a test drive here :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay thanks for the interesting data on that. I agree, the Cooper S is the only one to buy. With 115hp for the base model, you might as well buy a substantially cheaper subcompact and get the same basic performance (but not the same handling of course). Also the MINI repair record is a bit scary, or was.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    " I doubt any other sub compacts are going to have a real world 71% Residual value after two years and almost 28,000 miles."

    After 2 years and about 24,000 miles, I got $15,000 on trade for my RSX, which I bought for $19,500 + ttl. Isn't that about 75% real world residual?

    Of course, cars like RSX are not really what this thread is about (although it is technically a subcompact), especially since RSX is about to go away forever. :cry:

    I will tell you one thing that is "wrong" with these new subcompacts, though, and that is that they are in such high demand that no-one has any to test drive! Almost eight weeks into Fit availability, and I have yet to find a dealer that has a manual in stock that isn't pre-sold. So, I still haven't had a chance to drive one. :-(

    Have sat in one a couple of times though. Have confirmed that I "fit behind myself" in the rear seat, and that the seats are very comfortable, and a bit more substantial than the ones in the Yaris.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • turboshadowturboshadow Member Posts: 338
    Almost eight weeks into Fit availability, and I have yet to find a dealer that has a manual in stock that isn't pre-sold.

    Same problem I've had, and it is the same way with the Scion xAs; they are all automatics.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    buy an automatic one of these cars. Ughh.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Some people just cannot drive a manual for whatever reason. Some people have drives that make manuals a nightmare (if you drove the commute that I had last year in a manual you would most likely get to your destination and rip that transmission right out of your car).

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • pernaperna Member Posts: 521
    At the Philly show they explained it as "keyless" (key in your pocket and push a button) ignition.

    About 4-5 weeks until I can take a test drive here


    Yeah, it's pretty slick. The only thing you get to start the car is the fob; I assume there is some sort of RFID tag inside, that will make the push-button ignition work. I know the Altima's version also unlocks the door as soon as you touch the handle, but I don't know if the Versa works the same way.

    There was a good article in the freep this morning on the Versa, comparing it to the other subcompacts:

    Nissan Versa hatchback offers more room than competitors


    One thing I didn't know is that the seats are made out of that memory foam that they use with mattress toppers, pillows, etc... my wife and I bought one earlier this year in "topper" form, and it is incredible. I imagine the Versa seats are incredibly comfy if that is indeed what they are using.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A national finance magazine is looking to interview consumers who are looking to purchase a or have already purchased the new subcompact cars because of the high cost of fuel. Please send an e-mail to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Saturday, June 10, 2006 by 5:00 PM PT/8:00 PM ET containing your daytime contact information and the vehicle you are considering.

    ---------------

    A national finance magazine is looking to interview consumers who have traded-in their larger SUV for a smaller vehicle, because of the high cost of gas. Please send an e-mail to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Saturday, June 10, 2006 by 5:00 PM PT/8:00 PM ET containing your daytime contact information and car you traded-in and the current car you own.

    Thanks,
    Chintan Talati
    Corporate Communications
    Edmunds.com
  • nonnemachernonnemacher Member Posts: 98
    First off, I bought a Dodge Caliber before DCX pulled the deals on them to try to slow down sales... I paid $15.2k for an SXT automatic (CVT) model that had a sticker of $17.3k. I like the car so much, I was thinking of getting another one, maybe a stick for MPG, and letting my wife drive the CVT... But, right now, you can't get a stick Caliber, or a good deal on one, so I started looking at other cars.

    I've no idea what planet some of the reviewers live on when they write about the Yaris. One said the interior was "handsome." This is a joke - its terribly low-rent in every way imaginable. The 1.5 liter power plant is smooth but the car is grossly underpowered even considering its light weight. I also drove a Scion 5-speed with the 1.5 liter engine and found it to feel like it had a rubber-band for an engine. Everything about the Yaris felt noticeably cheap after driving a Caliber.

    Price-wise, the dealer had a 4-door auto Yaris without the power package or keyless entry, which I require and it was $14.1k. That sounds cheap, but adding the required options for most people easily takes it to $15.5k for a car that has no style or performance whatsoever- that's not a great deal.

    Frankly, the more I looked at the Yaris the less I liked it compared to the Caliber - the Yaris did not have side airbags either - that would take it to $16k or more... Now we are entering the territory of the Caliber or the Versa. The salesman even agreed with me that a well-equipped Yaris would fall well short of the Cailber in terms of style and driving manners, but be almost equal in price.

    I'd like to have a car that got super MPG, but that's the only thing I could see going for the Yaris. For what you get, its not really a deal in my opinion.

    I'll look into the Versa, which is close to the Caliber in size/style and close to the Yaris in MPG and hopefully can be had for a reasonable price.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    they'd offer a version of the Caliber with the 2.4 and an automatic/CVT, but with just FWD. I'm guessing the added weight of the AWD system probably hurts both economy and performance. I read a test somewhere, where they said that the 2.4 really didn't perform significantly better than the 2.0/CVT, because of the added weight and drivetrain sap.
  • tsgeiseltsgeisel Member Posts: 352
    I love my Hyundai, but I would love to have a little jellybean car to zoom around in.

    I've got an Elantra Hatchback. So I have a big jellybean car to zoom around in. Seems to be the best of both worlds to me.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    to cars the size of the Caliber, you have to take Matrix into account too - it has the same power (but more interior room) than Versa, costs the same, and lacks a few of the nicest features available on the Versa.

    Thing is, we are really talking about two different size classes of cars here: Caliber is not a subcompact, neither is Matrix, and in fact it appears that Versa is pushing that limit too.

    However, if you load up the subcompacts, they get to a price that crosses over with the cheapest cars of the next class up. And right now, there are a couple of cars worth considering at their lowest price points (Caliber being one, Matrix/Corolla another) if you are looking at a loaded-up B-segment car as the alternative. In most cases though, fuel economy will suffer.

    Versa is a bad example there: it is going to make only 33 mpg combined, which is the same as Matrix. Caliber with the CVT is even lower than both at 26/30, or 28/32 with the 1.8 that you can only get in certain trims (and with no CVT option, I believe).

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Caliber weighs about 3000 lbs, so there goes your gas mileage!

    May as well get a larger, somewhat heavier Camry LE 4-cylinder, which is rated at 24/33 with the automatic. Padded (oops...soft-touch) dash standard, unlike the Caliber's rock hard plastic.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Caliber weighs about 3000 lbs, so there goes your gas mileage!

    The domestics have been making 3000+ lb cars for about 20 years now which can hit 30 mpg on the highway, yet still perform better than a Caliber 2.4! So I'm just wondering if that AWD setup is sapping alot of power?

    Also, the Caliber 2.4 is a new engine, right? A joint venture among Hyundai/Mitsubishi/DCX? Someone please tell me this isn't the old 2.4 from the Stratus/Sebring sedans...the one that dates back to the old K-car 2.2/2.5! :cry:

    Also, why does it seem that CVT's tend to sap alot of power, yet also hurt fuel economy at the same time? I thought they were supposed to improve both? But if you look to cars like the Ford 500, the regular automatic gets slightly better economy. And I think Saturn gave up on the CVT with the Ion, because it didn't perform well, didn't do anything for economy, and was troublesome. Is the CVT just something that works better in theory than in real life, and is better suited to tractors and other lawn equipment?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I think it is better suited to either very light weight cars or needs to be designed by Nissan. They make more CVT trannys then anyone else.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay! I road tested the new Toyota Corolla and compared driver's room to the Scion xA and there is no discernible difference in head, shoulder or leg room. The leather seats were more comfortable, the power was about the same up to 75 mph at least, the Corolla had of course a generous trunk and a slide through in the rear seats, so it wins hands down in storage (with the back seats UP). Also I thought the Corolla rode better but it was no Lexus.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    "However, if you load up the subcompacts, they get to a price that crosses over with the cheapest cars of the next class up."

    Even you Nippon make the statement that makes sub compacts a hard sell to the masses. The next step up indicates you can get a better car for the same money.

    I just got back from my vacation and having spent two days of it in London I may have to reconsider my statements about sub compacts. While I did see a few smart cars I will still say the market is strongly in the Accord, Camry, Altima camp. These people are paying about 2 bucks a liter and still the Focus sized cars are the most common we see.

    As for third world countries? I don't think sub compacts are strong enough to hold up to the bad roads. But I do think I discovered where all the Toyota and Nissan diesel mini vans went. And we aren't talking turbo charged diesels either.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    The 2.4 is the new engine from the Hyundai/Mitsu/DCX joint venture. It is used only in the AWD Caliber, IIRC. There are 2 other engines in that family, the 1.8, used in the manual transmission Caliber, and the 2.0, used in the FWD CVT Caliber. This last is EPA rated at 26/30.
  • carfanatic007carfanatic007 Member Posts: 267
    This is a personal opinion, but I would NEVER buy a car assembled in Mexico. The Versa is assembled in Mexico, as will the new Sentra. The Fit is assembled in Japan. That, to me anyway, is a big selling point and is one of the reasons I purchased the Fit. I looked inside a Caliber "R/T" which is the top of the line right now, and the interior was extremely cheap looking. Some type of silver paper looking stuff all over the center gauge console. Cheap looking seats, shifter, etc. The Fit looks very upscale and expensive in comparison.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    Yeah, but all the pieces are designed in the US, and probably made all over the world, then shipped to Mexico for assembly. So, it would probably look exactly the same if it was made in Canada or Michigan.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Even you Nippon make the statement that makes sub compacts a hard sell to the masses. The next step up indicates you can get a better car for the same money."

    No, it indicates you can get a BIGGER car for the same money. It will have less features, but more passenger room. Bigger and better are not synonymous terms.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • crimsonacrimsona Member Posts: 153
    On the other hand, replace Mexico with China and I'm sure there'll be even more people who are skeptical about production quality. Japanese design or not, I'd be much more accepting of a Japan design and Japan made Fit than a Japan design Chinese made Fit.

    Similar idea with the Mexican Versa, albeit not to that extreme
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The Fit is assembled in Japan. That, to me anyway, is a big selling point and is one of the reasons I purchased the Fit.

    Scion ranked Number 26 with 140 problems per 100 vehicles.

    Scion xB made in Japan.
    Scion xA made in Japna.
    Scion tC made in Japan.

    Wow! Thank you for qualifying your statement as opinion. Buying based on origin of assembly does not define quality.

    Brands with the fewest manufacturing defects and malfunctions, the study showed, were BMW, Chrysler, Hyundai, Lexus, Porsche and Toyota. The fewest design/technology problems were found in vehicles made by GMC, Hyundai, Jaguar, Lexus, Nissan and Porsche.

    Honda scored too low to make either category. :surprise:

    Toyota, Nissan, GMC and Chrysler all manufacture vehicles in Mexico.

    Hyundai, BMW, Jaguar, Porsche do NOT manufacture vehicles in Japan.

    Hmmmmm.....

    The Fit looks upscale and expensive? :sick: OK, compared to a Caliber it certainly has better quality of materials.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    or a Caliber but I have the infamous 7-car comparo found in May's C&D in my hot little hands and I've derived some interesting information from it. And I have spent time oogling a 2007 Toyota Yaris sedan with 5-speed tranny, abundant airbags and several nice options for $14,675, at my local dealer. That car is gone from their lot but I sure like the Yaris sedans body style a lot. A few comments, though, from the mag's comparo.

    To sum it up the Honda Fit is the answer to everyone's econo-car needs everywhere. Great ride, great fuel economy, well-built inside and out. Beat out the Nissan Versa by 25 points and the Kia Rio5 came in 3rd place.

    Out of their field in that comparo I would pick the Kia Rio5 or the Toyota Yaris sedan. That is for many reasons, but the main thing I like about the Yaris sedan is it's looks. Also the legendary Toyota quality and resale value and the fact that it gets 34 mpg in the city and 40 on the highway.

    The reason that I would pick the Kia Rio5 are many and include brand loyalty(my last two new cars have been Kia's and they've worked out very, very well for me), price, $14,195 for a loaded Rio5 speaks volumes to me, that for a great little hatchwagon. Also the Rio5 reportedly drives like a little racecar, similar to reports from people on how they loved their late 80's Honda CRX's, great response when being pushed into turns and also great tracking from the car's steering system. A good stereo and good suspension and solid powerplant backed by an unbeatable Long-Haul Warranty. I'd get the Rio5, gentlemen, hands down.

    I will be watching and seeing how people are digging their Yaris sedans and seeing how well their powertrains and electricals are holding up for the long run, yes I will. Kia has already proven to me their systems are there for the long run. It's very doubtful I will leave Kia when it comes time to make my next new car purchase. :blush:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • crimsonacrimsona Member Posts: 153
    Scions aren't even available up here, so I can't even look at one in person, much less buy one. I did take a look at the Yaris 5-door, but felt it was sub par for not much less.

    The 07 Fit is produced at the Suzuka factory, which has been pumping out JDM Fits since its release back in 02. I don't anticipate any bugs that have to be ironed out, whereas I'd expect with the full model change at whatever new factory the US Fits will be produced at. I'm looking at one model, not the whole brand - it doesn't affect me where S2000's are made, for example.
  • harrycheztharrychezt Member Posts: 405
    http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4020143
    Yes, Scion as a brand ranked 26th. The tC, however, is another story(see the rankings of the top 3 vehicles in each catagory, in the JD Powers survey/link above).
    The top 3 sporty compacts were Miata, Tiburon, then tC, for 3rd place.
    For compact cars, Hyundai tied Toyota(Elantra/Corolla) and Civic was 3rd/ It was Toyota, Hyundai, Honda.
    Yes, there are some big 3 brands in the survey top 3 ,too, like Grand Prix, Corvette, etc.

    Oh, for iluvmysephia1; Kia Rio was tied for top subcompact, with Suzuki's Aerio

    take care/not offense.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,238
    Is this the Initial Quality Study that measures defects at the 90-day mark?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Yes, it was IQS. If you look at Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) it is important to understand how the rankings relate to the dependability or "problems".
    The last release of VDS was 2005 looking at 2002 vehicles.
    Lexus was number 1 with 1.39 problems per vehicle and Kia was last with 3.9 problems per vehicle.
    2.6 problems per vehicle spread between best to worst.

    Many people love to post rankings without quantifying the information!

    I can not say that there is any Kia that I desire to purchase, however, if there were, I would purchase it with the expectation that I would likely experience more problems than a Lexus, 4 problems expected compared to 1 problem with the Lexus.

    If there is a vehicle that meets your needs and price point and you like it, would you purchase it knowing the predicted risks, or would you be scared off by people making generalized statements such as "VW's are lemons, they are 3rd from last in reliability"?
  • johnnyvjjohnnyvj Member Posts: 112
    ... or would you be scared off by people making generalized statements such as "VW's are lemons, they are 3rd from last in reliability"?

    Scared off by that? Yeah, maybe a little, because you should pay some attention to word-of-mouth and reliability stats. But mainly I'd be scared off by the many ex-VW-owning friends I have who were made absolutely miserable by their VWs' extremely poor reliability.

    Good enough reason, yes? Not that I'm really asking. :surprise:
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    "However, if you load up the subcompacts, they get to a price that crosses over with the cheapest cars of the next class up."

    Yeah, so.....if you load up a compact, guess what? You cross over into midsize pricing. And if you load up a midsize car, you cross over into fullsize pricing. Same for SUVs. I don't understand the point. Some people will pay the same for a loaded "smaller" car, while others want the biggest car they can get at the same price. This is not news.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    Does sound like an excellent around town car, but wasn't it a little out of it's element on a highway trip?

    Oh, and this assumes that you like the seat height and angle where Honda decided you would, and have no desire to cook the top of your head.

    Maybe I am unique, but if I was looking today, I would give the Versa a long look, but skip the Fit. Unless they decide to do an upscale model (basically an EX), it is missing too many features that I consider requirements at this point in my life.

    But, I am also in the Demographic that is buying what they want, not just what they can afford. And there are plenty of others like me, just look at how well Mini has done!

    Maybe a Fit Si? that could be fun! And an Ex with steering wheel audio controls, and armrest, moonroof, and adjustable drivers seat. Most everything else seems to be included already.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the question becomes, if they did a Fit SI, with all the usual SI features (including the moonroof - what a shame that Honda North America deleted the moonroof when this model is equipped with it everywhere else) plus 16" rims and the powertrain from the Civic, could they sell it at $18K stick, $19K automatic? Because I am sure they would have to price it that high.

    Basically, if they did so, they would be bargaining on the fact that there are enough potential Civic buyers going elsewhere because there is no Civic hatch, to justify this variant that I don't believe would be sold anywhere else. And they would be bumping up against the Civic SI, which for $2000 more would have a HECK of a lot more power and much better suspension upgrades.

    I wish they would do it, but the Honda that would expired about ten years ago in the rush to the middle of the market. Today's Honda is much more conservative about marketing decisions.

    Heck, I wouldn't mind a Fit type-R, with the powertrain from the Civic SI and racing suspension. I would buy that before any of the Acura line - they could charge me low $20Ks for that. :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Yeah, so.....if you load up a compact, guess what? You cross over into midsize pricing. And if you load up a midsize car, you cross over into fullsize pricing. Same for SUVs. I don't understand the point. Some people will pay the same for a loaded "smaller" car, while others want the biggest car they can get at the same price. This is not news.

    Yeah, this is nothing new, and actually can be traced back to the old days when there were bigger differences between brands of cars, and by the time you optioned up a 50's or 60's Chevy or Ford or Plymouth to be equivalent, you were pushing into Oldsmobile/Buick, Chrysler, or Mercury territory.

    I think it's a bit rougher for smaller cars, though, as they still have a perception issue to overcome. Plus often the price differences aren't so great. For example, back when my uncle was in the market for a car and wanted an Echo, well the type of Echo he wanted, a stripper, was a mythical beast. Most of the ones on the lot were priced close to a Corolla. There was about $1000 difference, IIRC, yet the Corolla had a bigger engine, better performance, similar fuel economy, more trunk space, better instrumentation, and an interior that, for that class of car in 2002 (he got an early '03 model) was pretty upscale. From my point of view, it just seemed a no-brainer to go for the Corolla, the bigger car. And I'm sure alot of people thought the same way.

    Now, to use another example, when I bought my Intrepid back in late 1999, it was around $19,500, plus freight, tax, tags, etc. For about the same price, I could have gotten a Stratus that was better-equipped, with a sunroof, ABS, alloys, a cd player (I talked them into throwing a CD changer into the Intrepid though) and I think leather.

    In this situation though, the choice was a bit tougher. Now I put a premium on interior room and comfort, and the Intrepid felt like a more solid car. Fuel economy was similar, yet the Intrepid's 2.7 performed a bit better than the 2.5 in the Stratus. Plus, I was kinda leery (and still am) of Mitsubishi, and the 2.5 was a Mitsubishi engine. So for me, the Intrepid seemed like the right choice, but I could see alot of people going for the Stratus. It was equipped better, and while not as roomy, it was still pretty roomy. And while I was leery of the Mitsu engine, I'm sure there were plenty of people who were leery of the Chrysler engine!

    I sort of see the same thing with the Chevy Impala, versus the Malibu. The Impala is a lot bigger on the outside but IMO, useable interior room isn't that much greater. With the 3.5 V-6 there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two cars in fuel economy or performance. But for the same price, you'd probably get a bit more content in the Malibu than in the Impala.

    I'm kinda running into the same kind of mental block now, with the Caliber versus the Charger. By the time I option up a Caliber the way I'd want it, it's not that much cheaper than a stripper Charger, a car that still has everything I'd really want, yet be roomier, bigger, a better performer, and have similar mileage (worse around town, but a bit better on the highway)
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    a chunky, thick, overweight look to it that I wouldn't even come close to considering buying one.

    The Dodge Caliber, though, makes more sense because it's look is much more streamlined and one can try to extract some economy out of it's 1.8L 4 cylinder. They are engines produced in the Mitsubishi-Chrysler-Hyundai consortium of engine makers, the new 4-cyl. "world engines".

    Read here in Edmunds in the Dodge Caliber thread to see how early reports on the Neon-replacing Caliber are. Some are hearing some annoying buzzing noises out of their engines, many are not.

    I don't really like the new Dodge Charger's body style but I do like the new Dodge Challenger that graced the front of car mags a few months ago. Like Ford with their new Mustang bodystyle, Dodge captured the old musclecar look of the Challenger and streamlined it for now. A great job there IMO.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I kinda like the Charger. And I don't really see any insult in the name, because I just take it for what it is, the Intrepid's replacement. I know a lot of people get worked up about how it discraces the name, but there were plenty of cars in the 70's and 80's that probably did more harm to the name than its current platform.

    If I were to get a Caliber, I'd want one with an automatic transmission, which I think forces you to get the 2.0. And from what I've heard, since the 2.4 forces you to go with AWD and its associated weight and drag, performance is actually no better.

    I also wonder if I'd go through too much of a "future shock", for lack of a better word, if I went for a 4-cylinder car that you had to rev the snot out of for power? I've mainly been driving my decrepit '85 Silverado 305 lately. I had been letting my roommate drive it, but he got a new job that's 20 miles away, while I'm only 3 1/2, so I've just been letting him drive the more fuel-efficient Intrepid.

    Today though, we were both off, and I had to run some errands, and I took the Intrepid. It had been awhile since I drove it, and it just felt weird driving something that small again! And something that relied too much on downshifting instead of having the power to just take off in whatever gear it was in.

    I guess though, with time, I could get used to anything! And to be honest, sometimes when I get in my tree-huggy moods, I actually do think about getting something really small and fuel-efficient, since most of my driving is just short-trip, local stuff. But in the end simple economics wins out...it doesn't make sense financially to get another car until what I'm driving really wears out and needs to be replaced, and I can find other ways to hug mother nature, like planting a tree, not cutting the grass, snatching turtles out of the road, etc. :shades:
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    yeah, I have come to the same conclusion. My 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 got us through the eastern Idaho Rocky Mountain winter so well, the little SUV's engine is still humming like a champ, I still like it's body style, etc.

    Besides, when I run the idea of getting a new small car and trading in the Sportage 4x4 for it, my wife gives me the most quizzical look and wonders why I'd dream up such a goofy idea! I have looked at a lot of 'em in the last several years. But her plan is the most logical one and men are the ones that are supposed to be the most logical in their thinking patterns. She also is hooked on watching Suzi Ormon, who would turn up her nose at buying a new car when you don't really need a new car, too, eh?

    Lately I've been getting these nice, satisfied feelings while digging my Sportage ride, too.

    As far as powerful engines go, or large rides compared to small, I just dig smaller cars and SUV's better. I like their maneuverability and their overall shape and look much better than big vehicles. That "feeling" about vehicles of mine is not likely to change any time soon, either.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    OT, but what happened to his new Xterra?

    The Caliber suffers from 2 issues (OK, at least one) that bugs me about some of the current "subcmpacts": Gearing and weight, and the impact they have on MPG (and performance).

    THe Caliber at least is a porker, so it needs bigger engines to move it, at a detriment to MPG, which is pretty mediocer for a car this size.

    Many also seem to be geared too short with a stick. If they can loaf along at 2,500 RPM with an AT at 70-75, why does the stick have to be buzzing along at 3,300+?

    Trust me, I have driven a stick for a long time, and I really don't mind downshifting if I really need to! And yeah, I have heard the CC arguement, which I think is a bit of bull.

    I don't expect a FIt to be geared like a COrvette, but it could be a little more relaxed, and if not, break down and put in a 6 speed (although the Versa has one, and 7th still isn't particularly tall).

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    I hear you about the Si, but I'm interested, so they shoudl do it! OK, other people might be too, but it could be a niche unit.

    Now, an Ex IMO would sell like hotcakes. Plenty of middle aged (+/-) people want a small, economical fun to drive car, that's still cheap, but don't want to give up our goodies and comfort.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    OT, but what happened to his new Xterra?

    Actually all I did was co-sign on that thing, I don't consider it mine. And so far, my buddy's kept up on the payments. One down, 59 to go! :)

    I wonder what would happen with the Caliber if they just took it and put a V-6 in it, like the 2.7? If it can get 21/29 in a 2004 Intrepid, which is heavier, and can get about the same in a Stratus/Sebring, which is about the same weight, then I'd think that in a 2wd version of the Caliber, it should get about the same. So in doing this they could give this thing V-6 performance (not the best V-6 in the world, but still stronger than what they're currently offering) but highway economy would be in the range of the base model with the 1.8/stick.

    Even though the Caliber is a compact, it's really weighted more like a midsized car, so maybe they'd better start planning accordingly when it comes to engines.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    What I meant was, why is he driving the Intrepid, or is this a different roommate?

    damned, I'm nosy!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Oh, okay, gotcha. Different roommate. The one with the Xterra is the roommate that used to have a '98 Tracker convertible that was really getting up in miles. I had been letting my other roommate drive my pickup and I'd drive my Intrepid, but that was back when we both had short commutes to work. He recently got a job about 20 miles away, a great deal of it highway driving, so I figured I'd let him drive the vehicle that gets the better fuel economy. In that mix, the Intrepid might get 25 or more where the truck might be lucky to see 14. And the Intrepid has about 118,000 miles on it now and is almost 7 years old, so it's not like I'm letting him drive a valuable, low-mileage car. Interestingly, the Intrepid now has about the same mileage on it as the truck, yet the truck is an '85.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Many also seem to be geared too short with a stick. If they can loaf along at 2,500 RPM with an AT at 70-75, why does the stick have to be buzzing along at 3,300+?

    So few people buy manuals these days and so many of those who do want it for, um, spirited driving, that the manual is quickly becoming a "performance" transmission choice with the short gearing to accomplish that. Even an unambitious car like the I4 Hyundai Sonata has much shorter gears in the manual than the auto. Manual 5th is 0.97 with a 3.44 final (3.337) while auto 4th is 0.71 with a 3.77 final (2.677). There just aren't enough people interested in both clutches and fuel economy to be worth catering to anymore.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I agree I think that is the more likely reason as to why autos get gas mileage that is so very close to a manual tranny gas mileage now. It is not that the auto tranny has gotten that much more advanced it is that the manual trannsmissions have much shorter gear ratios.
  • heel2toeheel2toe Member Posts: 149
    And I'd bet money that manuals are getting geared short because it makes the stick shift car look better in magazine comparisons.

    As a manual fan, it annoys me to see the MT show worse gas mileage than an AT (at least those automatics with torque converters).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    even though they'd put in a shorter axle/differential ratio for improved performance, couldn't they just go ahead and put in an exta-tall 5th or 6th gear so that it cuts your highway revs a bit? Or does it cause a problem if there's too much of a spread between the top gear and next-to-top gear?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    too-tall overdrive gears are very hard for small engines to "pull", and can really stress an engine internally.

    Having the MT cars geared lower makes sense to me, since many of these subcompacts are not going to be 80+ mph highway cruisers anyway. A higher ratio AT can be pretty doggy in hill country or in a city like San Francisco. I tested both AT and MT in the car I bought and the difference in driving pleasure and city-street agility was very noticeable. I think an AT and 110HP is a deadly combination.
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