What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

ateixeira · December 2010

I don't like center mounted gauges so you don't have to convince me...

hpmctorque · December 2010

While I prefer the styling of the xD over the fit, from the reviews I've read I'd choose the Fit. I've also read that the seating position of the xD's driver's seat is uncomfortable for some people.

nippononly · December 2010

No, the xD's gauges are in the usual spot behind the steering wheel.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2010

And as michaell noted, the gauges are just dumb, with the speedo and tach rotating counter-directionally to each other, and both in the same gauge face. I didn't bother to drive one.

This is in the Scion xD? Rotating speedo and tach, different sides of the same gauge face on what...every different start-up of the car? What is that supposed to mean, anyway? :confuse:

The speedometer and the tachometer always stay in the same guage-face but rotate around each other indiscriminately, as the Scion's dashboard computer sees fit for that particular time? This is turning sort of Japanese video-gamish, sort of like the 2011 Scion FR-S' dashboard, which includes a racetrack layout as sort of a gimmick.

oregonboy · December 2010

jeez, man... just google it:

It's a little weird, but you would probably get used to it in a couple of days.

nippononly · December 2010

Chevrolet to add the Sonic name, drop Aveo on its next subcompact

Chevrolet will drop Aveo and adopt a new name - Sonic - when its remodeled entry-level subcompact debuts next year.

Chevrolet and General Motors Co, officials have been considering a name change for the subcompact sedan since October. GM North America President Mark Reuss said confusion over how to pronounce Aveo had sparked the desire for a change.

The Sonic represents a new beginning for Chevrolet in the small car segment and so we felt it was time to give it a new name, Chris Perry, head of Chevrolet U.S. marketing, said in a statement today. The new car is roomy, stylish and fun to drive, and Sonic is a youthful, energetic name that helps convey what this vehicle is about.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20101210/CARNEWS/101219999

Confusion over how to pronounce the name? Who are they kidding? Could it have ANYTHING to do with the fact that the Aveo was a STUNNINGLY cheap little crapbox from the former Daewoo in Korea?

So it's another "fresh start" for a Chevy model. We will see what the next one looks like at the Detroit show.....it IS interesting to me personally that they plan to build it in the U.S. though. That will put it in a class of one among subcompacts. There are several Mexican-built subs though.

And if it holds true up until production, the 500 from Fiat will become the second model in that class.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2010

thousand words. Or at least 25 or 30 words that really mean anything.

I've seen bigger reasons than this to turn a particular car model down, for sure, for sure. Seems like it might even be a desirable thing after 10 or 15 trips in the car, eh?

kyfdx · December 2010

I sort of like that... better than the tach being hidden in a smaller pod, off to the side...

I like the Porsche way... A big stinking tach, right in the middle... with the speedometer off to the side..

Speaking of center instruments.... the MINI has that big dog dish speedo in the center of the dash, but some option packages put the tach mounted on the steering column, in front of you, with a digital speedometer readout within the tach dial... I like that the best, I think...

michaellno · December 2010

Speaking of center instruments.... the MINI has that big dog dish speedo in the center of the dash, but some option packages put the tach mounted on the steering column, in front of you, with a digital speedometer readout within the tach dial... I like that the best, I think...

Yep, my daughters' '10 MINI has that setup.

I suppose you can get used to anything. I've been driving the '06 ION for about 9 months now and am used to the center mounted gauges.

The problem with the xB, IMHO, is that they went to the 2.4L engine and increased the weight by almost 25% from the previous incarnation, which killed the fuel economy. But, I suspect Toyota was OK with that, as they found that older folks were buying the xB in droves, so more room and more power seemed inevitable.

nippon - so, at the moment you're rating the Fit #1, Yaris #2, Mazda 2 #3 and the Fiesta #4, correct?

crkyolfrt · December 2010

"Confusion over how to pronounce the name? Who are they kidding? Could it have ANYTHING to do with the fact that the Aveo was a STUNNINGLY cheap little crapbox from the former Daewoo in Korea? "

My thought exactly when i read that garbage. Ya know...it's statements like that that actually give me great pause when considering ANY GM product. (the Cruze being in my sights for its apparent extremely quiet interior and solid but compliant ride)

I'm sure they consider it marketing (cover your butt) speak, but I consider it DISHONEST. Since those of us in 'the know' are aware of the level of cr&p they were shovelling when they said that, do they honestly expect us to believe anything else that comes out of their mouths or factories? I take that as an INSULT to my intelligence. So much so that I think I will go in and test drive the Cruze and thrash it to within inches of its life, and then go back and park it, never to darken their dishonest doors again.

Don't these idiots realize that if they try to shovel carp to intelligent people they will retaliate with their wallets? Geez, it is not rocket science. If i were in charge I would FIRE both Mark Reuss AND Chris Perry....oh wait...the first idiot is NA's Pres of GM...so the dishonesty begins right at the top...need I elaborate more?

Confidence in the new GM? I think NOT..

ateixeira · December 2010

I'm happy to be wrong!

Pic:

Much better than the xA, but I still don't like the speedo or tach.

I like it when 60 is top dead center on the speedo, since that's where you often are.

The tach is entirely too small, call it a half tach, or even a 1/3rd tach.

oregonboy · December 2010

I find the tach slightly annoying, in that the tach needle and the arc of the markings do not share a common center. How hard could that be to get right? :confuse:

edit: Actually to REALLY do it right, the tach and speedo would have to share a common center, and that could be tricky.

Still... not a deal-breaker if I was otherwise interested.

nippononly · December 2010

nippon - so, at the moment you're rating the Fit #1, Yaris #2, Mazda 2 #3 and the Fiesta #4, correct?

Well, evaluating each car individually on its own merits without price as a factor, I would say the order is
1 Fit
2 Mazda2
3 Fiesta
4 Yaris

Fiesta would be in the first or second spot for anyone who values either (1) high-quality interior materials and design or (2) a smooth quiet ride over superior handling and being the "driver's car".

But with price as a factor, Yaris might move up a spot or two. All my earlier comments were taking price into account, and that is specific to this moment: Toyota has an extra $1500 cash back incentive running for 2010 Yarises, of which there are plenty left all around, and dealers are desperate to sell them so they will go $500 below invoice. Yaris with power package at $12K or $12,5 is $2000 below what you could get a comparable Mazda2 for, and a full $3000 below what you could get the comparable Fiesta or Fit (base trim) for. That's a notable difference.

My dilemma came about because Yaris tricks you a bit - in reality it doesn't really have a trim level to compete with the Fit Sport, Fiesta SES, and Mazda2 Touring. Those are the trim levels I am more interested in, because all of them have tire/wheel/chassis changes from the base trims which improve handling. Yaris does not have such a trim, so its handling is more comparable to the base trims of those models. But when its fully loaded (by Toyota standards, LOL!), it is tempting to believe it has received significant improvements which allow it to compete more with those fully loaded competitors, when in fact the "sport" package for the Yaris is typical Toyota: just a bunch of bolt-on plastic to make it "look sporty".

Bottom line: Yaris is currently the cheap alternative du jour. A year from now a new Yaris model will have arrived, which should compete much better based on early looks at the new model in the Japanese home market. Unless you are shopping mostly on price, you should ignore Yaris for now, IMHO.

juice: I will call the xD's a 1/3 tach. ;-)

ateixeira · December 2010

Here's a PDF with inventory supply in days as of Dec. 1:

http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA71856129.PDF

1 Fit - 69 days supply
2 Mazda2 - 275 days (!)
3 Fiesta - 142 days
4 Yaris - not listed seperately

This is good news for you, my friend.

Check out the Mazda2 - massive oversupply and it's been growing.

Reading between the lines, this could mean rebates are coming soon. Ideal is about 60 days, so both Ford and Mazda simply ordered too many cars.

tifighter · December 2010

Great link, Juice.

Boy, would I hate to be a Mitsubishi dealer... :sick:

ateixeira · December 2010

Look at Saab, also. 2 sales per dealer, for a whole month.

Are you kidding me? That's one sale every 15 days.

I'd just close all the time and make it "By Appointment Only". You would only work two days a month!

plekto · December 2010

I found that driving a car with nearly the same weight and HP as the Yaris I had to flog the crap out of it every day in 3rd and 4th gear to get up hills and keep from being run over by massive SUVs that would come up on my bumper and get 5ft away as they made obscene gestures at me while laying on their horn. MPG never got above 25 combined as a result, though, yes, it would get well over 30 on the rare long distance drive to San Fransisco.

Welcome to Los Angeles, I guess. I suppose if you lived in Springfield, Il., you'd be fine with such a pathetic little engine and flimsy construction, but most of the U.S. is just not the place for a Yaris.

Conversely, my Volvo 240 got 25mpg combined without struggling and was fast enough to keep up with traffic. Sometimes you simply shouldn't get the highest MPG tin can just for the sake of buying a cheap car.

ateixeira · December 2010

I guess LA is different than DC. DC hates cars, basically. Some NGOs stage protests at stop lights here to ... well, to stop drivers from driving. LOL

My Garmin is capable of measuring average speed, I should use it for a week of commuting only and see the result - I bet it's well under 25mph.

Around here I was fine with a 48hp Chevy Sprint in college. A 167hp Miata feels like a muscle car.

nippononly · December 2010

LOL! It is good for me that my experience is so completely night-and-day different from yours, or I never would have kept the Echo (and the various Civics and a CRX before it) all these years.....

....and yes, I do drive it around LA when I am there to visit my folks. It spends the rest of its time in the San Francisco area and occasionally in San Diego. ;-)

plekto · December 2010

Oh wow I feel for you. That piece of junk was only slightly better than a VW Bug. MY "horror story" though was a 1981 Buick Century with that nasty throttle-body injection that never worked right. Basically computer controlled fuel supply to the carbs. If that sounds like a recipe for disaster, it was.

0-60 was a hopeless 18-20 seconds without power-shifting or abusing the thing to death.(not that that would have helped any, either - maybe save 1-2 seconds)

Replacing it with a Volvo 164E was fantastic. 50+ more HP and almost twice as fast in every way. 1/4 mile was 19 seconds - it would drag race a quarter mile faster than that Buick could get to 60mph :P

kyfdx · December 2010

With the FIT, right behind?

Oh wait... that's my list...

hpmctorque · December 2010

How about using Metro for your daily commute?

stever · December 2010

Great mpg, but they don't make those anymore.

Gee - oh...Metro. You mean the subway.

kyfdx · December 2010

Evidently, it is illegal to operate a Geo Metro, unless you weigh at least 300 lbs... or, alternatively, the total weight of driver and passenger is at least 550 lbs...

I swear.... every Metro that I've seen... Bonus for the two people delivering a rural paper route..

iluvmysephia1 · December 2010

I found that driving a car with nearly the same weight and HP as the Yaris I had to flog the crap out of it every day in 3rd and 4th gear to get up hills and keep from being run over by massive SUVs that would come up on my bumper and get 5ft away as they made obscene gestures at me while laying on their horn. MPG never got above 25 combined as a result, though, yes, it would get well over 30 on the rare long distance drive to San Fransisco.

Welcome to Los Angeles, I guess. I suppose if you lived in Springfield, Il., you'd be fine with such a pathetic little engine and flimsy construction, but most of the U.S. is just not the place for a Yaris.

Most of the reviews on the Scion xA I have read are fairly complimentary of the car's build...not a lot of shaking and rattling and a decent amount of taughtness to the car's frame and tightness of build. The knock on the car is that the little 4-banger does really have to strain to get the car up to freeway speeds. And merging now is not as friendly as it was 10 or 15 years ago. I test drove a 5-speed xA and liked the shifter-easy tosses that neatly fit right in to place. The idea of buying one was laughed off quickly by Mrs. iluvmysephia1, however.

Even though I brought a nice brochure crammed full of pretty xA pictures home to share with her.

Oh, and shifty talked about reaching 40mpg at times in his xA, too. Pretty impressive mpg.

nippononly · December 2010

Well, if money is no object then Mini is certainly at the top. ;-)

My list further up the page didn't extend to $20K+ models. For me, Mini would also compete with the CRZ and the Golf TDI, because of its price range.

ateixeira · December 2010

When I lived in Forest Glen I used to take Metro all the time (that's the name for the DC subway system, for those who don't know). I could walk, bike, or even take a scooter I had to the station.

Right now I live too far, so I'd have to drive to the subway station, park, take the subway, and then walk a couple of blocks to work on the other side.

Problem is, it takes a good 1:15 or so for me to that that. I drive in and it takes me 45 minutes or so, but going home it even quicker - about 25-30 minutes.

So right now the subway is way too time-consuming to be practical.

For the record I fully support Metro subsidies - in fact I think employers should make public transportation free, even if they have to increase my parking fees to pay for it.

The benefit to me? Less traffic.

ateixeira · December 2010

total weight of driver and passenger is at least 550 lbs...

Not me, but I did sell mine to a heavyset couple.

snakeweasel · December 2010

My Garmin is capable of measuring average speed, I should use it for a week of commuting only and see the result - I bet it's well under 25mph.

I just checked my Garmin and in almost 900 miles of driving in the Chicago suburban traffic it shows an average moving speed of 31.9 MPH. Typically the overall average is 5-7 MPH less, however since I know that the car sat parked with the Nav still on a few times I cannot say that overall average of 14.7 MPH it is showing is accurate.

dave8697 · January 2011

Mid size is now considered a big car? The V6 is rated 27 hwy using the old method. The 4 cyl is rated 34 hwy using the new method.

What it took for a 4 cyl to beat the V6 by a couple mpgs:
2-300 lbs less vehicle weight
2 less cyls
120 less ft-lbs
14 yrs tech advancement
bigger rims
lose the supercharger
4500 miles to break-in the 4 cyl
good weather
4 gallon smaller gas tank

dave8697 · January 2011

my car has DIC that shows avg speed. I've been to 31 sometimes but never hit 32. It was stuck at 30 for months. I was suprised it wasn't higher than that.

chaughey · January 2011

The fit as well as the majority of high mpg models must have a low drag coefficient design. a box does not do well in the wind tunnel. head room and shoulder room are difficult to allow for given other driver issues. Head room could be increased provided you crawl into the car as could shoulder room. I however find the shoulder rubbing acceptable in my fit and at 6 foot have not been rubbing my scalp bald so this isn't an issue. I do enjoy the 34 mpg highway on trips at over 3 bucks a gallon and find the creature comforts of my fit decent. a bit less road noise would be nice but maybe some dynoliner would fix that some day.

igozoomzoom · January 2011

"It's a little weird, but you would probably get used to it in a couple of days."

I dunno...It didn't go over very well in the 1978 Honda Prelude....so it's either a flop or they stole the idea from Honda....

Then again, Honda decided that digital insturment panels were suddenly a good idea...just over 20 years after everyone else figured out they were silly!

ateixeira · January 2011

Chicago suburban traffic it shows an average moving speed of 31.9 MPH.

And that's in the suburbs. Prius is really tuned to be a city car, and if used that way, speeds would be even slower.

I wouldn't be surprised if Top Gear's average speed on their circuit was double that or more. Clarkson averaged 45mpg in the Prius II, but remember the Prius III is more fuel efficient.

He compares it to the Lupo diesel, but why compare a mid-size hybrid to a B-segment diesel? Hello, McFly?

snakeweasel · January 2011

And that's in the suburbs.

Yes it was in the suburbs but at least half the driving was during rush hour which would be close to doing non rush hour city driving. I would say that it would be within 5 mph, less if you do alot of expressway driving.

ateixeira · January 2011

Turns out you were blazing fast at 31.9 mph.

My average speed here in DC commuting? 21.1 mph! Moving average still just 26.6 mph. Told ya my city driving was much slower.

Yikes. And the funny thing is that I had reset the clock about 37 hours of driving ago, or less than a month ago. Traffic was extremely light during the holidays, so that number is skewed on the high side.

I bet my average speed is 18-19mph during non-holiday seasons. :surprise:

nippononly · January 2011

that Fiat has the 500 lineup pretty much sorted out, and the base model (has all the features a Fit Sport has except the alloys) with a stick will be priced at $16,750? The Sport will go for about $2000 more and would interest me a lot more - it actually is a Sport in more ways than just plastic add-ons, unlike the Yaris. The moonroof is an $850 option regardless of trim level.

It's a stylish little car, I can't wait to drive one. Still waiting for the Abarth, which someone further back said had been cancelled for America, but which as far as I know is still on the way to being offered here at the end of the year.

One last factoid which appeals to me a lot: it will be the first car released since the Smart to be less heavy than the current class leaders, the Mazda2 and the Yaris, which are around 2300 pounds apiece.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/tags/fiat-500/

ateixeira · January 2011

Given what a Cooper costs nowadays, I found the reverse sticker shock to be a pleasant surprise.

Hurry the Abarth, please.

plekto · January 2011

With proper tires, it will smoke a Mini in handling. From what I can gather from the European review sites, it has a 30 ft turning radius. 0-60 is in about 9-5-10.5 seconds as well(review sites vary, might be automatic vs manual?), which puts it in the just-as-quick category compared to most of its competition. Combined, it really will be a lot like the original Mini Cooper. Small, fun, and agile. And can actually fit 4 people in a pinch. OK - not really, but having the option for a rear seat or rear cargo platform is something the Smart doesn't have.

The combined EU cycle is 37mpg converted to U.S. Gallons. So expect something like 32/42 or something like that for official fuel economy.

tifighter · January 2011

The 500 EPA ratings have been released now.

Uh-oh....

ateixeira · January 2011

Maybe Fiat knew they wouldn't be that good, and that's why the MSRP is lower than expected.

plekto · January 2011

30/38 isn't so horrible, though you would expect it to be a little higher. I wonder why there's a 5mpg difference between the Euro and U.S. spec versions.

ateixeira · January 2011

Imperial gallons? :confuse:

plekto · January 2011

Nope - the figures I posted previously were converted from U.K. to U.S. figures. (U.K. highway is over 50mpg in their measurements)

5mpg is huge. Different transmission and gearing ratios might explain a bit of it, but I suspect that it's 300-400lbs heavier as well. You don't loose 5mpg any other way.

nippononly · January 2011

Umm, 30/38 for the stick is better than ANYTHING on the road now powered only by gasoline, except the Smart car (and the 500 runs on regular, not premium like the Smart).

If you throw in the hybrids, nothing will handle like this or be fun to drive like this, except the CRZ, which is rated 31/37, which I call a wash.

30/38 is really quite encouraging, actually, IMO.

As for the automatic, well 27/34 is MOST unimpressive, it's true, but then look at similarly-engined cars currently available: the Mazda2 making the same power is rated 27/33 with the auto (although that is an old-school 4-speed), as is the Fit with the manual shift function the 500 has.

Fiesta is rated 29/38 with the auto but it's not shiftable and it's slower than DIRT.

Bottom line: when the automakers gear these small cars to accelerate rapidly and be "sporty" with the automatic, fuel economy suffers every time.

kyfdx · January 2011

I agree.... a MINI is 28/37... so, not bad...

I'll disagree about the significance of mileage ratings once you top 30 mpg..

If I spend $300/mo. on gas, and get 20 mpg, moving to 30 mpg saves me $100/mo.. To save another $100/mo., I'd have to get 60 mpg....

So.. higher is better.... but, not once I have to sacrifice driveability, fun, features, etc...

bumpy · January 2011

I wonder why there's a 5mpg difference between the Euro and U.S. spec versions.

Different testing regimens, plus the US version is probably detuned for emissions and crappy gas.

oregonboy · January 2011

If I spend $300/mo. on gas, and get 20 mpg, moving to 30 mpg saves me $100/mo.. To save another $100/mo., I'd have to get 60 mpg....

And to save ANOTHER $100/mo, beyond the 60 mpg... you would have to get infinite miles per gallon. Unless...

Unless the price of fuel increases or your miles driven goes up.

At low fuel prices and/or low driving levels, fuel mileage has little economic impact. But as fuel prices increase, (and you KNOW that they will), fuel economy becomes increasingly important. :shades:

kyfdx · January 2011

But as fuel prices increase, (and you KNOW that they will), fuel economy becomes increasingly important.

By then, I'll be ready for another car!

I've been averaging right around 26 mpg.... I can live with that... I'd like to do better, but not willing to give up fun or utility for it.. I do like MINIs, though...

ateixeira · January 2011

40 is the new 30. Elantra, Cruze Eco, and a Fiesta model all manage that number.

All Elantras do, too, manual or auto. I realize it's a sedan and won't exactly compete with a 500, but fuel misers may still cross-shop them.

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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