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Comments
August 10-13 they will be at the Sierra Trek in Meadow Lake CA. Don't know if that's close to you, but it's the only one on the West Coast that's listed right now.
Would be great to see those pics. That must have been a great time.
I guess the FJ logo is not at the left of the page anymore. I did a search for the venues you guys are talking about but I didn't come up with anything yet.
Chrysler has had a promotion for several years now where they let potential customers drive all the Jeep models over an off-road coarse. I drove several models over an extensive course when the Power Tour came to my city in 2004. And, each year we have the auto show, Jeep has had a 'you off-road it' course set up where you could test drive Wranglers on steep inclines offset whoopdys etc. It seemed to have the right effect on the buying public, as many seemed to go away very impressed.
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/minisite/landcruiser/index.html
and this one looks to go right to the trail teams:
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/minisite/fjbulletin/index.html?section=2.1
Ready to go boar hunting and mushroom picking Gagrice? :shades:
Anyway, even as a long-term Jeep owner, I was thrilled to see the FJ come back, even with a street-bias. Jeep must recognize that there's a market for more comfortable 4x4's, since the new JK is getting a much changed interior.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3167306103962577786&q=toyota+truck
I have a video of an early 98 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited (5.9L) spanking a mustang. The Jeep turned in the low 12s. I guess there were some engine mods but it was still the engine the vehicle came with apparently.
Sounds like that TOY truck has a lot of boost on a turbo or super charger under the hood.
'Jeep must recognize that there's a market for more comfortable 4x4's, since the new JK is getting a much changed interior. '
I don't know man, I think Jeep has gone more than far enough in turning it's models into toothless, cushy-cutie, soccer mom rides. The Commander, Grand Cherokee, Liberty are all examples of WUSS U V's as far as I'm concerned. No need to wreck the wrangler too.
Hard to look at meat in the store with what I have read so far. I like wild boar. Had it in Hawaii a few years back. I think I'll just raise a couple goats for meat.
steenh, I am digging through my storage looking for the old FJ40 photos. I took lots of pictures back then for 4X4 & Dune Buggy News.
Yes the commander is like a Nike shoe box so it has the image of being rugged but when you look close you will see otherwise. Perhaps more men do drive it but beyond being sexist, there are a lot of factors that have brought me to the conclusion that it's a sham. Things like IFS, the fake plastic allen head screws in the headlight assembly and on the flares. The stupid split in the rear flare where the back doors open, the lack of a manual transmission option and the list goes on...
Yes the new Wrangler will be far from a soccer mom's status symbol, and it will incorporate (some) features that will make it a better off-roader than even today's Wrangler but it has also taken a huge step backward with the deletion of the 4.0L and that crummy mini-van V6 they haplessly dropped in its place.
And really; you like your kidneys??? Come on Lauyn, what are you 95 years old??? I have a 2005 Rubicon and that 1981 CJ-5 in the post above. The CJ-5's 83" wheel base and leaf spring stack make it bouncy, but not at all unbearable. The Rubicon's 93" wheel base, soft springs and multi link suspension make it ride like a dream in comparison. You have to remember these are off-road vehicles - they are meant for the real thing; work off-road. You've been in the army, so tell me how was the ride in the 2 1/2 ton 6x6's??? I know they don't feel like a Cadillac right? but they're meant for work, like a (real) Jeep. At least the new Wrangler mostly holds true to the original idea and image of the Jeep – those other things aren’t Jeeps.
I like the pics... that's what a 4x4 should look like!
b/t/w, went to the local LC club meeting last night, first one for me. Saw lots of very nice looking 40's, 60's, a couple of 80's, and 3 very nice FJC's. All the FJC's were lifted, new bumpers, real tires, 2 of them winched and all of them had been taken off-road. The owners, who I'm just getting to know so don't have a lot of info, seem to be experienced wheelers. The thing they were most impressed with was ATRAC. Said it would work it's way through some very difficult situations. One of them said the biggest difference is that in the older FJ's you relied a lot more on power/torque to push through obstacles. In the FJC's it's more like a slow glide through them. On the trail run they were discussing, the FJC's went everywhere the other LC's went.
I'll get first hand pics and maybe a chance to drive one in the next few months.
So you found an active club it sounds like. Personally I think you made the right choice in vehicles dude. Your FJ has a look about it that cannot be replaced in a 'modern way' - the Classic, defined by functionality look. I would have taken your '67 over a 2006 any day. While at first glance people often think the classic FJs look like Jeeps, they really have a look all to their own. I was looking at one the other day and the common points between a CJ and a FJ are born out of functionality. Aside from that, the FJ has a tapered body tub from the front fenders to before the back wheels – in some ways more like the Jeep MB or M-38. The FJ also has a cool integrated headlight/grill that is not as deep as the CJ. From the front they have are each quite unique features. But all of us who own Jeeps or classic FJs drive around on the hot sunny days on or off-road proud to know that we are the envy of all those poor saps that are sweltering under a steel roof while the wind blows through our hair.
Your FJ is a much better platform to start building a hard core machine from than a FJC. Do you have a limited slip diff or locker in the back? If not, adding one is an investment that you will surely like. Moreover the Classic FJs have awesome visibility compared to an FJC. Trust me Steenh, if you throw a locker in the back and get some revolver shackles from Teraflex you will blow away those other guys in the FJCs. You won't even have to do a lift! In fact if you can run the tires you want without the lift I recommend not lifting. Lifting just raises your center of gravity and makes a 4x4 handle like a pig on the road and roll over sooner on side hills.
Well any way dude, we're all waiting for your pictures!
It looks like a very active club... a run once a month, always at the big gatherings, 60+ members. Think I'm going to like it. And yes, I also think I made the right choice. I am really enjoying the 40. Right now I still have the top on, been out of town quite a bit, need to rent some storage etc... But, it's hot here and I can't wait to pull it off.
The truck has a 2" lift now, 33 x 10.5 x 15 mud terrains. Actually runs pretty well on the road... not like the 100 by any stretch, but pretty well. You are right on with the locker... already ordered and in transit. After that, the next mod will be power steering. Not too bad on the road, but wrestling with it on the trail might get to be a bit much, especially with a locker. Would also make putting a locker in front possible... at least LSDiff. Not sure I'm going to go that extreme, but maybe.
I'm heading out on another trip Friday for 9 days so no pics for a couple weeks... I'm sure you're being kind to show the interest, but trust me... as soon as I get the opportunity, you'll see a muddy FJ40 with a smiling me behind the wheel.
Yeah a 2" lift is not that bad. It's nice to have the 33s. I have 32.0x11.50s on my CJ and when I really crank the steering sharp the tire just starts to contact the spring stack, so I might widen my track by about 1/2" per side and that should clear up that problem. Haven't done any lifting myself, but I would like to get that teraflex revolver shackle set up and I guess that will add some height weather I like it or not. Though the articulation of the stock leaf spring stack is ok, I was really impressed with how much difference the teraflex system seems to make.
Since I have open diffs all around I too am looking for a locker of some kind. I really really like that OX Locker because of it's lack of air diaphragms, or electric solenoids. It doesn't get much simpler or more reliable than a cable with a small locking lever mounted up by the console, but the stupid thing costs about $700!
I figure with the CJ-5's very short 83" wheel base, the V8 power and the addition of a few things like rocker guards, lockers front and back, my CJ will actually be better than my Rubi off-road.
The Rubicon's axles are much better, the 241 OR is a much better t-case with lower gears, 4-wheel disc brakes, much more articulation as you mentioned, and fuel injection. My 89 with the carbuerator would stall constantly, while the 04 would pretty much run upside down. The new 4.0 puts out much more power than an early 80's smog 304 (assuming the motor is stock), and the wheelbase could be argued either way (I prefer more, which is why I have an LJ, but I also realize it will high-center more easily).
IMO, Toyota isn't planning on trying to take the Rubicon market. There are some street-only Rubicons out there, but the market is folks who want the toughest factory trail 4x4 on the market (notice I said trail 4x4, as I believe the Power Wagon is just as tough, with a different purpose).
Toyota put up a vehicle to have specific advantages over the Wrangler for those who drive primarily on pavement. If I ran Toyota, and was driven by shareholders and not by my personal preferences, I'd make the same choices. I'd say more Wranglers get used off-road than other SUV's, but I bet it's still under 40% of the total. (After all, I still get some very perplexed looks when I use the Jeep wave. There are some folks that just are not enthusiasts, and are not interested.) That leaves 60% of sales that Toyota could potentially take. I bet if they do a TRD version, it will still be IFS, and may add electric lockers or something similar to the Tacoma package, but it still won't be aimed at unseating the Rubi.
Yeah I could not agree with you more about Toyota's plan for the FJC - it's not meant to unseat the Rubi as king of the off-road mountain. You and I would both do what Toy is doing to capture the most market. That being said, as an all purpose daily driver 4x4/weekend warrior the FJC looks not bad.
About my CJ-5 vs. my Rubi. Well yes the Dana 44s are ultimately probably better. However the lack of locking hubs on the Rubi is a real minus.
4 Wheels disks are nice for some things but not always the best. I have found several times that when disks are covered in copious amounts of wet snow they do absolutely nothing to stop you! I have seen several times where the rear drums are the only thing slowing the vehicle down while the front brakes don't keep up their end of the bargain.
The 304 5.0L vs the 4.0L: well the off idle torque of those motors is probably fairly similar. I know that the numbers in the book will actually suggest that the 4.0L has more horse power. However I can tell you without any hesitation that the stock 304 CJ-5 with 4 on the floor, will absolutely kill my 4.0L Rubi with the 6 speed in a drag race every time! Not even close. The CJ has way more snap in every gear. That 304 CJ is actually pretty quick. I raced a Honda S2000 off the lights and gave him the surprise of his life when he couldn't beat me.
The addition of Holley’s high performance off-road carb would probably cure any mixture problems one might encounter on steep inclines. They say it will maintain a smooth idle at 45 degrees.
The CJ-5 is also about 4" narrower so it fits more places and because the wheel base is 10" shorter it even turns slightly sharper that Rubi. The CJ's T-case is a dana 300 which is direct gear drive - no chains unlike the Rubi’s, and its not only stronger but is able to be equipped with a twin stick. Only problem is that to have the really low crawl ratios of the Rubi I would have to drop in the Tera Low gear set.
The thing that really blow most people away is the gas mileage. In Canadian gallons, Rubi gets 22-23 on the highway while the CJ gets 25 all day long! Yes the 5.0L AMC V8 will consistently get better mileage than the 4.0L!
That all being said, I really like my Rubi, and yes it is likely the most capable FACTORY produced 4x4 ever.
I can't speak to the new jeep vs. old jeep argument.
I think on the FJC, directionally you are right... but the view that it's a soccer mom-mobile is way too far off. I'm only seeing guys... and one wheeling woman... driving them in Atlanta.
I think they are designed to attract the wheeling crowd but not the hard core wheeling crowd. The hard core folks will modify whatever they buy, and it's easier and cheaper to modify a jeep, an old LC or 4-runner, or pickup than it is to modify a new FJC. And, who really wants to take a $30k+ vehicle and smash it up against a bunch of unforgiving rocks? I'm sure even new Rubicon owners are less likely to hit the hard trails than someone in an old CJ that is already "broken" in.
Maybe the answer to all of this is... the hardcore wheelers won't buy anything "new", jeep or FJC. So, you can't really compare and FJC with a Wrangler because there are "old" beat up wranglers out there that people are willing to trash around more than anyone in a new vehicle would be, jeep or FJC.
Just a thought...
You wouldn't by any chance be talking about me would you Steenh???? LOL! Well to be truthful, yeah, it goes against something inside me to thrash a vehicle I factory ordered and paid $30K for. I have off-roaded the Rubi, but nothing like the stuff I'm willing to do with the CJ. My dad laughs at me; says “you bought the most capable 4x4 ever made and you’re afraid to drive it in the rain” – well he’s exaggerating a bit there. That being said most of the Rubicons I see around here, and there are a lot, are heavily modified to have snorkels, 35" rubber, and most of them have battle scars. As far as 2 year old Rubicons go, mine is in much nicer shape than most of the ones 1 year old.
But you know it's funny, because I'm willing to put a lot of time and money into my CJ to replace rusted metal, give it a nice paint job, do mechanical mods etc and I'll still drive it the same way I did before I spent that money. I'll still do the same trails or even worse ones. So I don't know why it makes a difference if its $30K in mods combined with a lot of blood and sweat or if it's $30K for brand new iron, but for some reason in my subconscious there is a difference. Hmmmmm
By the way Steenh, we started on this blog at complete opposite sides of the spectrum. What happened???? We seem to for the most part agree now.
Well yes, the Wrangler/TJ suspension is light years ahead of the CJ's leaf spring system. The articulation is far better and the ride is noticeably better too. The 2007 Wrangler's long arm suspension is suppose to make the current TJ's suspension look as 'bad' as the CJ's. I think it gets something like 680 on the ramp travel index - not too shabby. However with a call to Teraflex, the application of a couple $100.00 bills and the time for installation, the 25 year old CJ suspension can apparently flex better than my stock Rubi or so I’m led to believe.
You must be seeing things my way now
It does make a difference... no logical explanation other than emotion. You spend bucks to modify something, you want to use the modifications... means wheel harder. Buy anything new and you want to preserve the newness as much as possible.
Humans ain't that smart... but we're the smartest!
I'm definitely using that one...
Well I guessed you weren't 95 LOL! Anyway I think you are right that the new Wrangler will probably be the best riding solid axle Jeep ever made. Perhaps the best riding solid axle 4x4 every made for it's wheel base. So if Daimler Chrysler engineers can make it ride nice AND perform better off road I'm all for it too!
I guess my view on this 'ride nice' thing is that I buy or build a vehicle for a specific purpose - I expect it to perform better in that area than any other vehicle that is intended for multi purpose use. That being the case I am willing to sacrifice performance or features in other areas to be the best in one or two specific areas. So if my CJ-5 rides like a buckboard, has very little room and doesn't have power windows or locks, so be it - I expect that and I don't mind because I knew that when I signed up.
By the way, I'm starting to look for a Duce (diesel or multi fuel). Don't know weather I'll go with a US model or a Canadian army model though. A lot of the US models have dual bogies on each rear axle and I don't think I want the extra tire expense for that, but I guess it depends on some other factors too.
Just got back in town... and decided to head back out next weekend to Tellico TN... Never been there, but hear it's one of the best wheeling areas east of the big river. Going with 20 other Cruisers, and the FJC Trail Team will be there.
I'll be driving one at some point during the trip... First hand experience should be a blast. Of course, I'll take a bunch of pics, and I'm no "Lucas" photographer :>
One of the folks I'm heading up with has an FJC with new lift and a real bumper. They are planning to put it to the test on "Slick Rock".
Going to be a good weekend.
There you go trying to make me hungry again. Been eating veggies out of the garden. Still hard to look at beef and processed foods. Way too much HFCS.
steenh: have fun on the trip and post in Carspace for us all to enjoy the area.
Of 15 trucks in our group, 6 were FJC's. Two of them were from the trail team. One of the independents was built up, one had a lift and rockers, the others were stock with rockers. the other 9 trucks ranged from a highly built FJ40 to a couple of 60's and 80's, and one 100. There was also our token Wagoneer.
This is the built FJC.
The FJC's are VERY impressive. I was able to spend about an hour in one running through some pretty tough stuff. No problem at all. ATRAC is unbelievable. We never locked the rear... never had to. I now understand why they didn't bother with locking the front. ATRAC is very impressive technology that you really need to drive to appreciate. Don't think the Rubicon has that technology available. If you don't experience it, I think it's easy to criticize the lack of locking front... once you have, you realize you'd never use it anyway.
Out of the box, an FJC does need sliders, a lift, and a bumper to really play... though the non-lifted FJC's did extremely well playing with the big trucks.
First had experience... FJC's will be around in the wheeling world for a while. Jeepsters will see them sharing the same trails. They are VERY capable.
I haven't wheeled a Rubicon, so I can't compare directly. All I will say is that the word in the Toyota community is spreading quickly that FJC's are for real off-road machines.
Now the bad news... Vacuum leak the morning I was leaving meant that my FJ40 didn't make the trip
Easy fix as soon as I got home, and was glad to have had the opportunity to drive an FJC so all's good.
Hope all is well with all of you.
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Nice pic by the way. This looks like the kind of wheeling that you can really have a lot of fun on. It's not sissy wheeling and its not so hard core that it will scare your passengers away. It’s nice.
That built FJC in your pic is pretty much modified the way the Toyota dealer told me an FJC should be changed if you are to take it off-road. They had one in the show room that they had built up that way - but the extra bills for it over the stock one was not trivial.
About the ATRAC. This type of traction control was offered starting in 2001/2002 - 2004 on the Jeep Cherokee in the Overland model. The system had the ability to direct 100% of the engine’s torque to any given wheel that had traction or split it between all four according to which wheels have traction. So if 3 of the four wheels had no traction or were even in the air (which would be impossible), then if the third wheel had at least some traction you would still be moving since the system would direct the engine's torque to that wheel only. I never drove one, but by all accounts it was very impressive.
This package was not offered on the Rubicon since it offers no advantage over having all the wheels locked solid. Lockers will probably take a lot more abuse than an 'advanced traction control system' to because there are no clutches to slip and far fewer moving parts. The other thing to remember about the Rubi is that even when all the axles are unlocked it still has a posi-track or a limited slip rear end. Most times I would not have to even put it in four wheel drive never mind lock the axles to drive many moderate trails. July edition of Petersons 4 Wheel and Off-road had a 10 best four wheel drives in history exposé. Out of the 10 there were 3 Jeeps named. The Jeep Rubicon was named the most capable out-of-the-box 4x4 to ever be offered by an OEM bar none. Your FJ-40 was also in best 10.
To bad about your FJ not being able to make this trip. But a vac leak should be no big deal and then we can see some pics of your classic on the trails
http://216.120.237.3/model/99gc.html
About half way down the page they explain the transfercase and the special vari-lock axles. It seems like a pretty smart system that does not rely on a bunch of electronic or computer crap to do the job.
In many respects, I see the Cherokee the closest Jeep counterpart for the FJC.
I agree, the air lock system of the Rubicon is much more durable and far easier to fix should an issue arise. And the helical limited slip makes life much easier, even on a wet street.
The FJC needs sliders... with that it can go off road out of the box. We had a couple that just had sliders. They did fine. One of the trail team rigs was built that way, and made it up slick rock on a previous visit... we didn't make it there this trip. Our ride lasted too long with 15 trucks. (dinner and beers were waiting for us too)
As far as ATRAC vs. all locked, I actually think that ATRAC could have an advantage. Locked axles are much more difficult to steer than "unlocked" and can have a tendency to slide sideways where ATRAC would put traction where it's needed, to push through a turn without having to spin both wheels. I drove both, ATRAC was a much more controlled ride. One of the people that drove an FJC for the first time (a 40 owner) said "it kind of takes the thrill out of wheeling. It's so smooth and controlled". That summed it up pretty well. I like them a lot more than I thought I would after spending time in one.
Rubicons are great off-road. I don't doubt that at all.
I'm heading out again for a couple of business trips so it will be a while before I get the 40 dirty, but labor day at the latest I'll find some mud and post some pics! :shades:
I must say I see an FJC every once in a while and I still don't like the looks. It's just not very attactive from certain angles. Unlike the FJ40 which looks fantastic.
As for adding sliders, a trans/case skid plate, a gas tank skid plate, a much slower low range grearing - That's all doable with little extra cost to Toyota. AND... They might even rip out that torqueless V6 (which I'm not really that in love with) and put a diesel in. That would be great.
I wonder how hard it would be to rip all that IFS crap out of the front and replace it with a solid axle out of an old Toy.....Hmmmm
In the case that a wheel is on a surface with less traction and is truly spinning, then the computer instructs that brake be applied so that the torque be directed to the other wheel which has more traction.
In essence this system has the ability to send 50% of the engine’s torque to any wheel at any given time, since it can't allow the brake on the side with less traction to lock solid - it must still be allowed to rotate so you can move forward. ie. the extra energy is lost in brake friction on that wheel too.
So ATRAC is an electronic/computer based system. This is in sharp contrast the Quadra Drive set up Jeep offered on the Grand Cherokee up till 2004. The Jeep setup used gerotors inside the diff and did not incorporate any electronics, the brake or ABS system at all. With the Quadra Drive set up nearly 100% of the engine's torque could be applied to one wheel if need be. Where as ATRAC will only let 50% go to a given wheel on a given axle.
All in all I can see the charm of the Quadra Drive and ATRAC systems. On a slick muddy side hill both those systems would not tend to let you slide sideways so much as locked front and back axles. However, from what I have been reading on some of the Toyota forums is that it does not replace lockers and that ATRAC sometimes allows excessive wheel slip. Some owners were not too happy with this aspect of it. Personally, I would just hate the fact that it means more sensors and electronic crap to go wrong when the vehicle gets to be more than 5 years old.
The two questions that remain are: Will it be offered with front and back lockers, a decent low range, and good skid plate package like the Rubicon is. AND, what will it CO$T???
But it looks like Range Rover has started it's customers with a much more trail ready product than Toyota did. The Defender looks like much more serious off-road competition for the Rubicon. Way to go Range Rover!
Took the top off the 40... and here are a couple pics.
<img src="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/steenh/FJPics002.jpg
I agree the Defenders were and are nice. And I bet these new ones will be more dependable, however my only worry is the cost! Even if they do eventually bring it here is it going to be $60 000.00???!! I have a feeling its priced right out of what the average Jeep/Toyota owner can afford.
About your 40: All I can say is - NICE. Do you have a Bestop on it? The half doors look a lot like my CJ-5's Bestop doors.
I do have a besttop. Was installing it as I took the pics so the hardware wasn't in place. Have to say, at 90+ degrees for days on end, it's very nice to be able to pull the top off.
No doubt the Defender will be outrageously priced if we ever get the chance to buy one. The little Freelanders are expensive, and they aren't much more than an Escape. I used to see used Defenders for sale here in Atlanta from time to time. Never less than $30k no matter the year or mileage. Haven't seen one in a couple years though.
Good luck in your "neighbor extortion efforts". Pics of another sort may be needed!