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GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda...Who will sell you your next car?

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Comments

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    That's not the mentality of most consumers. They have been scorned and wronged and it will take some gesture of kindness to restore faith. VW had a deal where they gave $500 or $1000 to anyone who had ever owned a VW (I don't even think you had to currently own it). I figure it was their way of paying people back for all the power window motors ignition modules they had to buy.
    I think the lease loyatly deals are rediculous. Why do you have to give a deal to someone who already likes what you have? Or is what you have so bad that its easier to get a new conquest custormer than hold on to your old ones?
    It took a lot of campainging to get my folks to by a Grand Voyager after having a Reliant that was, eh, poor. If they had waited a year and gotten an ultradrive Chrysler, I am sure it would've been their last. The Voyager was a great car and lasted a long time.
    The point isn't so much that things have improved, its that when things sucked we got hung out to dry.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    The point isn't so much that things have improved, its that when things sucked we got hung out to dry.

    Personal experience means a lot more than JD Powers or CR. I would not look at a Toyota for 30 years after all the trouble I had with the engine in my new 1964 Land Cruiser. Then I bought a 1994 toyota PU and it was not that great either. I guess most people have great luck with Toyota. I have had great luck with my last 5 GM trucks. Never bought a new GM car.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    You bring up an excellent point. The K-cars (the cars that saved Chrysler, by the way) should have absolutely killed the brand, they were so bad. Yet, people today buy Chryslers, and the brand endures, albeit under German ownership now.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Eh, in fairness to Chrysler, the early 80s weren't that great a time for anyone. The domestics were having trouble with quality control. The Reliant's door feel off because the spot welds failed and it had some mechanical issues. Its hubcaps would fly off, the windshield wipers would fly off, the outside mirror fell off, it makes me wonder who put the thing together. Its the only car i remember my parents having that didn't make it to 100k, and was sold not running (strike that, they had a Vega).
    That Voyager was great though, it had the tow package that upgraded the brakes and cooling system to what should've been standard, and I think that really helped that car's longevity.
    Next up for the folks is a Volvo station wagon, because they always wanted one, although I am campaigning for a Ford 500.
  • harrycheztharrychezt Posts: 405
    http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Car_Shows/Geneva_Motor_Show/2006_Genev- a_Show_Preview_Part_II.S288.A10047.html

    The Dodge Hornet, if built(and perhaps at least as long, total length, of the upcoming Suzuki sx4-around 162-163inches, versus this 151 inch deal, another foot longer than the concept, and maybe nearly 11 inches shorter than the current Caliber)...and they did not de-tune it.... I'd consider Dodge(I'd consider caliber, if not for the nearly 20K msrp for what we want on the sxt, and still only get about 10 seconds to 60).
    If I wanted to spend 20K on a somewhat slow car, I'd get the new Civic(I read 0-60 is around 9 seconds), and get 40MPG. Problem is, Honda dumped their 3 door/hatch! Guess they did not read about the Scion tC's selling 75,000- or so- units in 05, and look to easily pass that number this year(for less cash, and 160HP, I may add. Sure, I lose 6mpg, but have hatchback versatility, Civic does not have that any more, and the fun and cost factors).

    That C'eed is ok. I have seen better photos with the hatch open, interior, etc. If they price it right... and may replace the Spectr 5 with this.... sales will fly.

    SOrry to digress:
    get to the point:
    WIll consider:75% chance of purchasing from them:
    Scion/Toyota
    50/50 chance we will buy from in a few years:
    Suzuki(if they get that sporty sedan/Reno I have read about in 07-08,on many future vehicles columns...claim they will actually be fun, like the motorcycles)
    Mitsu(Eclipse, if they aren't folded and gone frm the USA shores).
    Dodge/Chrysler(Due to using GEMA engines these days in newer cars and "things").
    Mazda
    Hyundai
    25% chance:
    Kia: they tend to take Hyundai platforms, tweak them,and make them look nice, but quality is sort of not as good, it appears.
    Honda(due to those high priced version of Civic. base model with auto is 15,199, add sunroof and cruise=19,000+ msrp).
    Chevy(If they ever make that HHR larger, more headroom-when sunroof is installed- more leg room, and maybe 4-6 inches more width to the thing, so ya don't bump shoulders with your passenger!
    Ford: fusion is ok, but so are many other cars.
    maybe if they made a car, even if regular engine, like that Reflex concept car....

    No Way:
    Subaru, Isuzu, VW
    Nissan(due to poor dealership treatment in this area..You have a problem? Good luck getting it fixed under warranty without an argument).
    of course, luxury cars= out of my price range, so forget them, too.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    It's one thing to buy a lemon. Every manufacturer from Honda to GM to Mercedes-Benz lets one slip through to customers.

    It's another thing to buy a vehicle with a known, widespread defect and have the manufacturer and dealer stonewall on fixing it. In this day of the internet and widely publicized quality surveys by JD Powers and Consumer Reports, it's absolutely ridiculous for a company or a dealer to say "We've never heard of head gaskets failing on this one before," when any customer with a computer and knowledge of how to use it can pull up the stories of hundreds of owners with similar experiences.

    How the company and the dealer handle the problem are really more important than the problem itself. My parents are loyal GM owners...in 1988 they bought a brand-new Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royale with numerous, niggling problems. But the dealer really did try to fix them (and succeeded), and today they are still loyal GM owners.
  • ubbermotorubbermotor Posts: 307
    The Hornet.

    Dodge says they are looking for a partner to help with the Hornet. Considering that Volkswagen is getting a Caravan and the origins of the show car (A car based on a VW Polo using a Mini powerplant), I don't think they are looking to far.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I have good success moving Civic and Corolla customers over to the Mazda 3. Once they drive one, or sit in one, they're instantly sold. IMO, it's the best alternative to the Civic/Corolla without putting them into a Hyundai. It's better looking than any of them, has some slick gizmos inside, and seems to run great - for less than a Honda, but more than a Hyundai. It's the middle ground car.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,052
    I had one K-car derivative, a 1988 LeBaron turbo coupe that my uncle bought in 1990, and sold to me and my wife in 1995 when we got married. It actually wasn't that bad of a car when it was new, but it didn't age very well. Beyond the 90,000 mile mark was when the problems really started. Thankfully, that was also around when the wife and I got divorced, and I gave her the car, so the really big problems hit on her dime, not mine.

    For the time, they were certainly competitive. They wouldn't have the rugged durability of the Aspen/Volare they replaced, but on the plus side, their earlier years would prove to be more reliable. Things didn't break or fall off as quickly on them, and driveability was much better, as the 2.2 was designed with emissions controls in mind. The slant six was not, and took to them horribly.

    They were certainly less troubleprone than GM's X-bodies, and were more space-efficient and economical than Ford's Fairmont/Zephyr, which were its closest Dearborn competition, until the underwhelming Tempo/Topaz came out.

    As for Japanese cars? Well, back then they still tended to rust, automatic trannies were iffy, and so were a/c systems. So if you wanted some stripper economy model with a 5-speed and no a/c, you were better off with a Japanese car. But once you got into automatics, a/c, etc, the playing field was much more level.

    They weren't the most sophisticated things in the world, but they were serviceable appliances. And around the time they were introduced, 1981, they truly did represent a major leap ahead. Fuel economy, maneuverability, space efficiency, etc were a big jump over the old Aspen/Volare. The 6-passenger seating was also a big selling point. Now to be fair, GM could have gotten 6-passenger seating out of its X-bodies, but instead they chose to eliminate the center seatbelt, and on bench seat models they put a little plastic storage bin where the center spot would have been on the bottom cushion, while the backrest looked like it was designed for 3-across seating. They did this to save a few bucks.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,375
    Does Mazda have the past reputation for quality mechicals and reliability? Serious question. I hadn't considered them an alternative based on coworker's comments years ago.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,052
    definitely have a fiercely loyal following. However, I've always been a bit leery of them too, simply because I've known enough people that have had problems with them. Especially in the 1990s, when they did all those Ford collaborations. I knew a guy who had a 1994 Ford Probe, which was basically a Mazda 626/MX-6 platform with some Ford tinkering. I remember the guy telling me that the dealership told him, when he took it in for servicing, that the Probe was the most expensive Ford-badged car of the time when it came to repairs/maintenance, because of all the Mazda componentry.

    He went through two transmissions on it, but I think the tranny was actually a Ford component! (4-speed automatic). I also knew a guy with a 1995 Mazda 626 that had the tranny fail. Exact same component, I think. Very expensive, as well.
  • allen5hallen5h Posts: 2
    I walked into a Pontiac dealership in 1997 to test drive a Sunfire. When I told them that I cannot buy today because I still need to test drive the Corolla and Civic they told me that they will let me factory order any Sunfire any way that I want it for $50 over invoice plus any rebates, incentives, etc... that are applicable at the time of delivery.
    I thought that was such a great deal that I signed on the dotted line.
    My factory ordered car arrived some time later and when I picked it up and flipped it over the dang thing had a sticker that read HECHO EN MEXICO! When I signed on the dotted line I was not anal retentive about it being made in America; but a low wage country like Mexico?
    This car was nothing but a pure lemon. When I finally got rid of this nightmare it had 56k miles and lots and lots of repairs. Like $1,300 (out of my pocket) for a new moonroof mechanism. An Oil pump, two ignition coils, stereo, rack n pinion steering gearbox, catalytic converter, and on and on and on. Every repair took the dealer at least three attempts to fix anything, and they introduced other problems at the same time of the repairs. It was an endless cycle of breakdowns, tow trucks, appointments for repairs, and long waits in a laughable sardine can sized room packed with other Pontiac customers. I was in the habit of checking under the hood after every repair attempt looking for bolts and washers that Mr. Goodwrench left out. It seems that my whole life revolved around the Pontiac dealership at times.
    Maybe it would be better if the owner of this Pontiac dealership was to spend less money on his multi-room mansions that he builds for himself every three years and more money in his Pontiac dealership? Just a thought.
    By the time I got rid of this GM product (remember, it had 56k miles) it was stalling on the highway every 20 minutes, the power steering fluid was leaking on a hot radiator hose and the resulting (carcinogenic?) fumes in the passenger compartment were suffocating me, it needed yet another rack n pinion steering gearbox, and the engine was at times making a horrendous screeching sound as if journal bearings where seizing or something. I was also keeping a dahon folding bicycle in the trunk just in case, and I tried not to drive too far from home so that I was always within pedaling distance of my apartment.
    All the while throughout this ordeal the Pontiac dealer was "amending" existing work orders so as not to show that three attempts where made to fix anything. They told me that this paperwork is done this way because it is much easier and efficient - but the thruth is that they know not to generate all of these different work orders that prove that they are an icompetent service facility - better to show that all of these attempts to fix any one problem was one repair with only one work order.
    My letters to Pontiac always came back with a form letter advising me to work to get these warranty problems resolved with the Pontiac dealership. The Pontiac dealership in turn told me that they will be more than happy to work something out about this defective product if I can get GM to do something for me. When I asked the Pontiac dealer who the regional factory rep for Pontiac was they told me that "these things are not handled this way." In other words, the Pontiac dealer did everything they could to see to it that I got stuck with this lemon.
    My experience with my new 20001 Honda Accord has been very different. No sooner do I drive my new Honda Accord home I get a letter in the mail - a form letter signed by the owner of the Honda dealership - advising me that at his dealership the customer does not put up with any headaches. If something is not right then I am to speak with him and he will make it right.
    Now this is an example of a new car delalership owner who is NOT so engrossed in his mansion building that he forgets where his money is coming from.
    The few warranty problems that I have had with my new Honda purchase where fixed at the very first attempt to fix them. I am totally amazed that they do not break anything else when they go about fixing warranty problems or performing regular maintenance. (The Pontiac dealer led me to believe that all service departments are like that.) At 95k miles it is still going strong with no out of pocket repairs (only maintenance items like new brake linings, brake fluid flush, manual gearbox fluid change, new tires, spin balancing, etc.). The two service writers at the Honda service department today are the same two people in 2001 when I purchased my New Honda. At the Pontiac dealership what they had was a revolving door of personnel.
    Last week a small decal that is glued to the driver side door that envelopes the security red blinking LED came off so I glued it back on with super glue. Last year the clutch pedal's return spring broke, so I replaced it. Maybe two years ago the clock's light bulb went dead, so I replaced it. I can live with a car that requires these simple do it yourself repairs.
    I do not pretend to be an authoritative source as far as which manufacturer has the best product quality. I choose not to get into any slipery slope (read pissing contests) with people over product quality. I do not pay any attention to J D Powers or what Edmunds.com or Car and Driver are writing about the new vehicles. I am no different than most other folks whose past life experiences help shape and mold the person that they are today, and today my preferences for consideration for a new car purchase has to include Honda and Acura at the very top of my list.
    If the new Cadilacs truly are great products that are just as good as any other luxury brand and the Cadilac service departments are the greatest things since sliced bread then I will never know because I will never purchase a new Cadilac.
    Who could blame me?
    But I have other reasons not to buy GM products. I happen to know the couple who own the local Avis rent a car agency in town. Avis rents mostly GM products. This couple tell me that they send their GM rental products to their respective GM dealership for repairs only to get swindled out of their money because these GM dealerships never fix anything.
    All that I have written about GM service departments may not be fair because it is not based on a randomized statistical sampling of service at all GM dealerships - and there are thousands of GM dealerships in America - but as far as life experiences go, these are the only facts that I have to go by.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Posts: 1,828
    I had 192k miles on my 1983 Plymouth Reliant in 2003 when the steering rods rusted out and I decided to sell it to my mechanic. The car was a good ride that averaged 26-28 mpg and was fairly reliable.

    Most of the problems with the vehicle were the usual - valce cover gaskets, CV boots, mufflers, etc. What went wrong with the car generally went wrong over and over again. The rest of the stuff ean pretty well. I had very FEW breakdowns.

    My BIGGEST problem was finding repair shops that could get the vehicle fixed CORRECTLY. And some C-P dealers were as bad as the independent shops I tried out.

    My parents Dodge Aries did not do as well and seened very underpowered.

    The Reliant was a serious improvement over my Chevette **OR** the Toyota Corona station wago that I drove in college.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    GM could have gotten 6-passenger seating out of its X-bodies, but instead they chose to eliminate the center seatbelt, and on bench seat models they put a little plastic storage bin where the center spot would have been on the bottom cushion, while the backrest looked like it was designed for 3-across seating.

    Storage bin? My old POS Citation didn't have any storage bin in the seat.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    The Mazda3 is a sharp car...especially the five-door model. Too bad that Ford decided that we didn't need the new Focus based on this platform. Just another reason why Dearborn is in big trouble.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    andre: They were certainly less troubleprone than GM's X-bodies, and were more space-efficient and economical than Ford's Fairmont/Zephyr, which were its closest Dearborn competition, until the underwhelming Tempo/Topaz came out.

    Wouldn't you say that the Fairmont/Zephyr twins were probably the best bet for longevity, even if they were considered "outdated" at that time?
  • sjhoopersjhooper Posts: 2
    I purchased a VW Beetle in 72. It was a piece of junk - therefore I will never look at another German car. I purchase a Nissan Datsun in 76. I came from the factory with rust. Therefore I will never drive another Asian vehicle. I purchased a Chevrolet Vega at the end of the model run and had surprisingly good luck. Therefore - I have driven nothing but Chevrolet since. I'm sure that this all makes alot of good common sense to you.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,375
    Used to work with a lady who drove a Fairmont. She would occasionally drive her Jaguar but when the weather was bad that Fairmont kept on ticking. She'd had it since it was new, no wax jobs. Last time I stopped by it was in parked in her turnaround. They always impressed me the same as the original Falcons did. Heavy and slow.

    I'd forgotten the Zephyr was the Mercury version. So the Lincoln version of the Focus is now using the Zephyr name.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    >So the Lincoln version of the Focus is now using the Zephyr name.

    Ahem: That's a Mazda 6 under that Lincoln, thank you very much! :sick:
  • harrycheztharrychezt Posts: 405
    because, for us, the thing was a little more "rigid"(mazda3) in handling(I guess sporty?). We kind of like the handling of the tC, but it does not feel as "rigid" over bumps,etc..
    Took it)mazda3) around some back road curves, and the brakes did not feel as solid as the tC. NVH: no comparison.
    We like the Mazda3 Looks better than the tC. No doubt about it.
    But, when we got one loaded like the Scion( sunroof, cruise, abs,etc....) it was 19K+(this was september 2005, and for the Ford Focus engine? Correct? I think it was 150-160HP, or no? I know they recently bumped up the base model to 150 from what 140+?).
    The base model vs tC back then was not much of comparison, to us(160HP, vs 142? something like this).
    Similar mpg for automatic.
    17,199 for tC, or 19,500 for the model that closely matched tC in content and HP, at the time.

    Hmmmmmm.....we took the tC. BTW, only issue was passenger wiper arm blade got stuck and they fixed it.
    nearing 50K miles in 18+ months, 31-34MPG hwy,depends if ya lead foot the thing, or not.
    0-60 around 8 seconds(some mags say 8.2 with the automatic, and 7.7 with manual).
    Not bad.
    has that synchronized 3rd gear deal, you in 4th on hwy, and need a quick "boost"(to drop down a gear for passing?)... bump it over to 3....and away ya go :D

    Maybe the new Mazda3, the base, with 150HP, and less expensive, might be enough now to get us to look down the road. never know.

    As for reliability. My mother in law still has her 1997 protege dx....80K miles.
    Still running strong. only issue was some sort of gear shift lock broke. they had AAA tow it, and it was 75 dollars to fix(my father in law was bashing Mazda, because e I suggested it, said' thing only lasts 80K and breaks? probably be 3K for a tranny"... then when it came back that it was only a lock that needed fixed, for 75 dollars, never heard a peep again from him about foreign cars being rotten,etc ;) PS: his 1999 Jeep Laredo, correct? He got a new tranny for over 3K, last march, 05....becuase he got it used, and it was only 1 year "old" to him, and just hit 107,000 miles. Told him maybe he should get a Suzuki or Mazda. It costs less to fix :D LOL. he did not respond. Anything can break down. Out 01 tibby had tranny issues at 103,000 ).

    As for foreign vs domestic:
    We have had both, and troubles with both: Chevy, Nissan, Hyundai, Scion: from extremely minor to serious.
    We buy things that are to our liking, and hopefully under 20(on sale, or regular msrp).
    I just do not really want to spend 20K on say, HHR, which we liked(style wise), but has zero head, shoulder, or rear leg room,(no head room with sunroof to speak of). It was tolerable for 0-60, and the seats were better than in the Caliber, and almost on par of the PT's leather seats.
    If GM fixes these width, height, length issues I mentioned, we may return for a possible purchase.
    Same for Caliber: good at 16K, but go up to the SXT to get sunroof,etc, nearly 20K?
    No thank you.

    Same for Civic..... nearly 20K for sunroof/crusie/automatic? MPG is good.... but I can live with the tC for 2,400 less(use that savings for gas, and have 20 more HP, too).

    Anyhow, take care, not offense.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,052
    Bumpy, I did a little searching, and it looks like the storage bin was added in 1981. It's shown in the lower right corner of this brochure page.

    Here's the bench seat of the 1980 Citation. Here it looks like they used a base cushion that could hold 3 across, but then put bucket backrests on and only gave it seatbelts for two.

    I wonder why they didn't just go ahead and offer 6-passenger seating? These cars were as wide inside as the Celebrity, which was based on it. And about as wide inside as a Nova, Aspen/Volare, Fairmont/Zephyr, etc, but without the driveshaft/tranny hump that those RWD cars would have to contend with.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,052
    Wouldn't you say that the Fairmont/Zephyr twins were probably the best bet for longevity, even if they were considered "outdated" at that time?

    Yeah, I'd say the Fox-cars were probably the most durable and reliable compacts of the early 80's. And I think the main reason that they were considered outdated is simply their exterior size. They served well for a few more years as midsized cars, with the '81-82 Granada and the '83-86 Marquis/LTD. And the T-bird/Cougar used the platform through 1988, and the Mustang carried it on through 2004, so it definitely had some life left in it!

    The Fairmont made perfect sense in 1978, when that was the size of your typical compact car. Also, around that time, what was considered a compact and what was considered a midsized really got muddled, as GM downsized their cars.

    By around 1981 though, I'm guessing most people associated a compact car with something Citation or Aries/Reliant-sized, while a Fairmont, which was at leat a foot and a half longer, was just thought of as too big. Even if it didn't give up much in fuel economy, and really wasn't much heavier. It just LOOKED big.

    My grandparents had an '81 Granada coupe with the 200 straight six, and an '85 LTD sedan with the 3.8 V-6. They never had any major catastrophes with either one, but they also traded pretty often. The LTD replaced the Granada, and then itself was replaced by an '89 Taurus. Granddad used to let me practice driving in the LTD when I had my learners. I also went to Florida with them one year, and they let me do a lot of the driving. IIRC, the LTD did overheat on the way down, and it was only about 2 years old at the time.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    Okay, that's not the bench seat I had in mine (built in April 1979). The bottom is similar, but the seatback was one piece contoured for two seats and had some humps at the top instead of headrests. Maybe you had to order the cloth to get separate seatbacks?

    [Edit: that's the coupe interior in the picture. You'd have to have separate seatbacks that could flip forward, so you could get in the back seat. Mine was the 5-dr hatchback.]

    GM probably didn't offer 6-person seating because the manual Citations had a floor shifter.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,052
    It's cut off a bit, but maybe it looked more like this? I just noticed that the other '80 Citation I posted was the club coupe model, which would have required separate folding seatbacks. This sedan looks 1-piece.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,536
    Ahem: That's a Mazda 6 under that Lincoln, thank you very much! :sick:

    Its the same platform as the Mazda6, but its not the Mazda6. Its quite a different car, as I understand it.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    Yeah, that looks like it. You get a better view here. The only major options I remember on on the window sticker were the V6 and automatic. I think Grandpa spent his pocket change on the CB radio, rather than better seats and power gear.
  • pernaperna Posts: 533
    No sooner do I drive my new Honda Accord home I get a letter in the mail - a form letter signed by the owner of the Honda dealership - advising me that at his dealership the customer does not put up with any headaches.

    You know what's funny is I had a similar experience when I bought my Nissan Maxima.

    When we bought my wife's Fords (she loves Ford!), our mailbox is the victim of a torrent of junk mail, advertising new Fords. They constantly want you to swap your car out for a new one.

    With my Nissan, on the other hand, I get junk mail from them, all right. With coupons for service items such as brakes/oil/etc. (from Nissan itself, not my dealership). These are actually useful items, and I've used them before! I also received a call from Nissan corporate after I bought my car, thanking me for buying a Nissan and if I ever have any issues with my dealership, please give them a call.

    Now, I've never actually had to call them, but it makes you feel good about the car you bought to get attention like that.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,175
    Nice! My mom STILL gets those offers from the dealership she bought her car from.

    Funny part is she bought the car in 1990 (91' 240SX HB) and at the moment it has 28x,000 miles on it.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    >Ahem: That's a Mazda 6 under that Lincoln, thank you very much!

    Its the same platform as the Mazda6, but its not the Mazda6. Its quite a different car, as I understand it.

    Oh, agreed, there is lots of good engineering in there for the Fusion, I was correcting someone who had said the platform was a Focus under there. I wasn't denigrating the car.

    However - I don't like the Zephyr. Not just because it's so damn small, but I don't feel it has Lincoln quality - at least the Lincoln I am used to from the past. Prop rods to hold the hoods up belong on Hyundais & Kias, not Lincolns.

    IMO, the Country Club division of Ford, is losing its luster fast. And I've been driving Lincolns for 15 years.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,536
    ah, ok, i'm with ya now. I kinda think that poster meant to say Fusion ... maybe not.

    i don't like the Zephyr either. I actually think it looks pretty good, but if I'm buying a FWD V6, it ain't gonna be a Lincoln.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

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