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Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4 or Subaru Forester?

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  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Well there's no doubt I 'm spoiled by the Forester's greenhouse view of the world :P Which is probably why this trend towards higher and higher beltlines really annoys me. I drove an HHR as a rental for a week and it felt like I was peering out gun slits! :(

    -Frank
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Between the "sloping roof" and the rakish belt lines, we're lucky to have rear windows at all.

    Sitting in the back seat of a 2004 TL felt claustrophobic compared with my wife's 2001, but in reality the leg, arm, and head space are very similar. It's just the smaller side windows which make it feel tighter than it truly is.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Speaking of port holes and claustrophobic... there was a recent review of the Toyota FJ where they compared the view from the back seat as being similar to that as from a bathysphere :surprise:

    -Frank
  • d_krautd_kraut Member Posts: 3
    Re annoyingly high beltlines / gun slit windows / sloping roofs: I hate them.
    Just hope that the manufacturers read these forums, and that this trend goes away soon.
    I'll hold on to our GenII CR-V, and our Pilot as long as possible.
    Our third car will likely be a Nissan XTerra (RWD, manual, boxy with plenty of cargo space and good views) instead of new CR-V.
  • sbgsbg Member Posts: 9
    Hi p0926 and others,
    I see your point p0926 and it makes sense but does the '07 CRV new sloping rear view window negatively affect merging on (specifically) the highway (cars at faster speeds and you need a longer field of vision and more driving distance to safely change lanes than on city streets?) Wish they had kept the square windows. When you get down to it safety is more important than looks. Also, does anyone know when would be a better time to purchase one (less demand, better prices, rear differential problem gone-discussed in other forum topic), Feb., March or April? Thanks!
  • gene_vgene_v Member Posts: 235
    Supposedly a new Ohio plant will come on line in second quarter, thus prices are to come down. Crv's presently come from Japan.
  • sbgsbg Member Posts: 9
    Thanks gene v, excuse my ignorance when does second quarter begin? Sorry varmint, I addressed p0296 instead when I said I could see your points about the rear window issues.
  • sbgsbg Member Posts: 9
    Also, about how much do you think the prices will go down? (For an LX AWD) Thanks again.
  • sbgsbg Member Posts: 9
    Varmint, I now see my question about highway visibility is silly (I'm a newbie) so disregard it but wish the 07's still had the old square windows, if I wanted sleek I would get a sportscar...
  • typesixtypesix Member Posts: 321
    Yes, the sloping roof is to blame. CR measures the biggest box that can fit thru the rear door opening and calls it useable space; whereas the car maker will count every nook and cranny in their cu ft measurement.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Not a silly question. There are some things you just need to experience from time to time. The fact that the bottom of the window extends all the way to the rear gives you a view of the road surface (where the cars are); but you can't tell that by looking at exterior pictures and reading forums.

    For my part, I'd challenge the notion that these windows are really worth much at all. I use mirrors. I certainly hope most people aren't whipping their heads around just to change lanes on the freeway.
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    Maybe not on the freeway, but I would be a bit nervous not doing a quick shoulder-check on the city.
  • snoopy21snoopy21 Member Posts: 114
    just to be clear, the east liberty, ohio plant has already been producing the new CR-Vs since october (but it looks like they've all been going to canada so far). now, as supply increases, the prices dealers are willing to accept will decrease, but the MSRP will not. i've been a car nut for over 30 years and i have never seen a mid-year price decrease. prices paid, however, will fluctuate with supply and demand.
  • sbgsbg Member Posts: 9
    It seems that quite a lot of car buyers are concerned about the rear sloping window and overall design (read on other websites too.) If Honda listens to all the concerns and changes the design of that window (hopefully amongst other things like the weird front design, giving V6 as option etc.) what is the earliest a new model would become available? September? Even though supply is low and demand is high right now, if the new design is causing enough potential buyers to look at other SUV's could it possibly be even earlier? Thanks.
  • snoopy21snoopy21 Member Posts: 114
    honda's typical design cycle is 4 to 5 years. you may see some minor refreshing along the way as well as improvements (e.g., more horsepower, different options, etc.) but you won't be seeing anything radically different in a year or two; the lead time for stuff like that is simply too long and it's too expensive...in addition to engineering and design, there's lining up suppliers, testing (including crash testing) and tooling.

    this is not to say that honda doesn't have a V6 planned though. manufacturers typically hold back certain things so that they can offer them incrementally with each new model year to keep a positive buzz on their cars and continue to entice people. that being said, honda has always marched to their own beat so who knows? the automotive press has always begged honda to put V8s in their big acura sedans and in the ridgeline pickup truck but they won't.

    besides, as you stated yourself, demand is high which means it is selling well and a lot of people do like it.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    There's an old expression that goes, "Money talks and the opinions on internet forums can take a hike." ;)

    Right now, the CR-V is selling at a ridiculously fast pace. With more than 15K being sold each month, that's a whole lotta money talking in Honda's ear.

    Since 1997, Honda has proven that a good four cylinder engine can be remarkably competitive in this segment. Every manufacturer that's added a compact CUV to the segment has done so with a V6. Only one of them has seriously challenged the CR-V for dominance and, even then, only did so with fleet sales and large incentives. So, frankly, I don't see a V6 coming until the next full model change in 2011.

    What I do think we'll see is a refreshed I4. Honda has a new VTEC system over in Japan. We may see it first on next year's Accord. Then it should make its way to the CR-V in 2009 or 2010.
  • snoopy21snoopy21 Member Posts: 114
    There's an old expression that goes, "Money talks and the opinions on internet forums can take a hike."

    hilarious! :)

    yup, according to car & driver magazine, the CR-V still outsold every other vehicle in its segment in 2006 except the ford escape even though it only had a 4-cylinder engine, had no optional 3rd row, and was in the last year of its previous-generation design. not to say that it wouldn't sell better with a V6 but it's pretty clear that honda knows what it's doing with the new CR-V.

    oh, and i found this tidbit. from the honda's CR-V project leader, Mitsuru Horikoshi: “It’s not that we didn’t consider a V-6 and a third row. It’s that it clashed with the concept of CR-V.”
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Well, it's hilarious until I recall that my opinion is one of those being posted on internet forums. I want a restyled front clip! :cry:
  • snoopy21snoopy21 Member Posts: 114
    ha-ha, i too hated :P the front end treatment. i also hated the downward taper of the side glass. but, somewhere along the way, the strangest thing happened...i started to like it :P now, i have to say that like it very much! LOL

    i guess that's just how it is sometimes. lookit what BMW did with the current-generation 7-series and that "backpack on top of the trunk" treatment...oh man, is that ugly. the worse part though is that, although there is near universal criticism, other manufacturers have been following suit (e.g., acura RL, toyota camry). i hope that look never grows on me.

    i do very much like the move away from the external mounted spare tire and the top-hinged hatch :)
  • 101010101010 Member Posts: 3
    Honda seems to be offering a manual transmission of the 2007 CRV in the UK in both gas (sorry petrol) and diesel. Any possibility that they will bring it to the US.

    www.honda.co.uk/car/?sectionID=_hce_crv07

    I called Honda customer service a couple of months ago and specifically asked them if they made a manual transmission version for any market (Europe? Asia?) and they said "No" ... I sort of feel like they lied to me.

    Auto Transmission is a non-starter with me.
  • daveitdaveit Member Posts: 9
    I bought a CR-V and I've tried to love it but this latest snowy winter has brought me to the realization that I should have bought a Forester. The Subaru just feels right in the snow...I have a 97 Legacy that I've been driving for several years in snow without studs/snow tires. It feels a lot more surefooted than the CR-V with Blizzaks. I'm planning to test drive a Forester this weekend to see if that's better. From most of the reviews I've read it is.

    A couple other things I don't care for are the sunroof howls like crazy due to my bike rack and I can't stick one of those wind spoilers on. The back door opens towards the curb so you have to walk around it. Kind of a pain with groceries and when you pick up relatives from the airport. I heard the '07 CR-V changed the back door. It was also super hard to find a manual. I ended up with an AT.
  • snoopy21snoopy21 Member Posts: 114
    just wondering if anyone who shopped for a CR-V, RAV4 or subie also considered the mazda CX-7. why or why not?

    personally, i find the CX-7 the most attractive of the CUVs, both inside and out but the turbocharger removed it from my list (associated mileage, premium fuel requirement and longevity/reliability concerns).
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    I called Honda customer service a couple of months ago and specifically asked them if they made a manual transmission version for any market (Europe? Asia?) and they said "No" ... I sort of feel like they lied to me.

    Well that's a bit harsh. I'm pretty sure that your typical customer service rep knows even less about the model line-up than a newly hired salesperson. Normally you'd have to go pretty far up the corporate ladder before you found someone with enough knowledge to answer that type of question. For the most part, only hard core automobile aficionados are going to keep track of foreign markets.

    Oh and just because something is available overseas doesn't mean that you will ever see it here. There are lots of interesting models as well as goodies and nice features that will never make to the US (for whatever reason).

    -Frank
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Forester is so good for visibility that I'm having trouble picking a larger vehicle to replace it.

    Thin pillars, low belt line, tall roof line, there seems to be more glass than sheet metal. Even the rear window dips low so you can see a young child directly behind you.

    Drove a Saturn Outlook at it was like driving blind-folded. Wide pillars and a very tall rear window means you have to park by braille. I had to back into the curb to get a reference point.

    It's a sad trend, as many other vehicles I've test driven are the same way. At least on some you can get a rear backup camera (or sonar). Or an aftermarket one for the others.

    It's hard for me to think of a vehicle that does not have this visibility problem, come to think of it. The CR-V isn't too bad, the RAV4 is worse. Murano, Tribeca, FX, MDX, all those seem to have much less glass.

    -juice
  • barnowlbarnowl Member Posts: 18
    Could you offer any specifics about the CR-V's Winter driving capabilities? ...any anectdotes or experiences...i.e could you drive the CR-v out of a parking spot on the side of a street after a snow plow has gone by i.e. "plowed-in" ?

    I've been hesitant about reactive AWD systems that are FWD until slippage. I also don't understand how the CR-V's AWD system works with the VSA Traction Control...after all they seem to be at odds with each other......the CR-v AWD needs slippage to engage the rear wheels and the Traction Control tries to prevent any wheel from slipping....how does the CR-V ever transfer any significant power to the rear wheels ?

    I've been looking at the 07 CRV and the RAV4; I like the AWD system of the RAV4 better because it has an AWD-lock switch ( up to 25MPH ) plus its my understanding that the RAV's electronic AWD control shifts power to the rear during acceleration in general....don't know if this is true...its so hard to find any real world testing of AWD systems....too many road tests just recite the brochure and 0-60MPH times and braking and skidpad handling.

    Why doesn't any road test of AWD vehicles have specific AWD testing i.e. low friction surface with level and uphill testing ?
  • drive62drive62 Member Posts: 637
    Right now, the CR-V is selling at a ridiculously fast pace. With more than 15K being sold each month, that's a whole lotta money talking in Honda's ear.

    :D
  • joecarnutjoecarnut Member Posts: 215
    Nothing scientific, but I do a lot of driving in the san fernando valley and los angeles and most of the time when I see a car hauler it is usually loaded with cr-vs.

    Every now and then a mixed batch of toyotas might come by, but otherwise full haulers, usually a pair of them full with cr-vs only and several times everyday.
  • drive62drive62 Member Posts: 637
    To me the initial penetration seemed a little low in this area which is one of Honda's bigger markets. But I am starting to see more of them. I think there are three in my subdivision now. At one time there were at least seven 2G CR-Vs in the neighborhood. Including four just on my street. One of my neighbors traded their older model for a new silver 'V.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Passed a new CR-V on the street today and can't say the new look does anything for me. It's a shame too because except for the spare tire hanging off the rear, I really liked how the 2nd gen looked.

    -Frank
  • carbuyer420carbuyer420 Member Posts: 1
    If you look at the Total Cost of Ownership for all the 3, CR-V scores big in the maintenance. Why does Forester have high maintenace/repair costs, especially after the 30K miles?
    Can any RAV4 and Forester owners offer their insight?

    Also, the resale value of Forester are lower than CR-V.
  • drive62drive62 Member Posts: 637
    Not sure but when I listen to Click and Clack it seems like more Subaru owners call in. Rarely hear a Honda owner.

    Honda is usually at or near the top for resale value across all models.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Not sure but when I listen to Click and Clack it seems like more Subaru owners call in. Rarely hear a Honda owner.

    That's true. However, I presumptively assumed that's because Subaru owners are more likely to fit the listener demographics of NPR :P And of course not all callers have mechanical issues.

    I've also noticed that Click and Clack will frequently try to steer someone looking for an all-weather capable vehicle away from a full-size SUV and into a Subaru. I remember one guy in particular, he lived in Washington State, had a Chevy Tahoe, drove a lot for work and also took his two sons up into the mountains skiing on weekends. He was looking to get something that got better gas mileage. Click and Clack pointed out that a Subaru Forester would get much better mileage, met his cargo carrying requirements and could easily handle driving in the snow.

    Now the guy didn’t say it but you could tell from the tone of his voice that there was no way he was going to be caught dead in any rice-burning small SUV. Oh well, at least they tried :)

    -Frank
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I think Tom & Ray see a lot of Subarus in their neck of the woods too; I think the Northeast is the biggest market for Subaru in the US, although they are strong in the Northwest and the Rockies too.

    My sister is tire-kicking a used Forester in northern Virginia right now - you can tell winter finally arrived back there. The dealer started out about $5,000 over TMV and is still $1,000 high.
  • tazerelitazereli Member Posts: 241
    Steve,

    If she is looking in N. Virginia, she should check out Fitzgerald Auto group in Gaithersburg, MD. Juice seems to be a big fan and their Subaru prices are tough to beat in that area. I live in Philly but am considering going to Fitz when I'm in the market in a year or 2.

    Regards,
    Kyle
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, thanks, I've mentioned that a few times, but all the Fitz's are too far for her to drive to (she's close to the W VA line). Or so she keeps telling me. :shades:
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    There's also a Fitzgerald Subaru in Rockville, MD which may(?) be closer than their Gaithersburg store.

    Bob
  • drive62drive62 Member Posts: 637
    They also recommend the Element quite often.
  • drive62drive62 Member Posts: 637
    Agreed, the Northeast is a big market for Subaru (relatively speaking).

    Click and Clack's show is national so either the Subaru owners like to call more or else like I originally said they do have more problems than Honda on a percentage basis

    Since Hondas outsell Subarus by a considerable margin there may be some merit to this assumption. Seems like for the Subie owner it's usually a clutch problem. I know Tom and Ray usually say it is a known problem in many models.
  • brianjandreaubrianjandreau Member Posts: 67
    I just got rid of my 01 Forester for a new 07 CRV. I loved my Forester, but I spent so much money in repairs. In the last year, I spent over $2000 in repairs. And I was going to have to put another $2000 into the car because the elecrical system went. I reviewed my records and was shocked by how often the car needed service and by how expensive it was. As I said, it was a great car except for the cost of keeping it on the road... I guess it wasn't so great, huh.

    I got a decent price for the trade, but I couldn't keep driving it and I wasn't about to get another one knowing that a lot of people experience similar things with Subies. I'm excited to get my CRV (I had to order it), but I am a little nervous about the difference between AWD and RT4WD. I live in the north east so I need good traction.

    Oh yea, I listen to NPR and Tom and Ray too, and I was going to be one of those callers before I decided to get rid of the Subie.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That's one reason why I'm hesitant to do much more than look up TMV for my sister - as soon as I brag on a Subaru, she'll wind up with one with a blown head gasket or bad tranny. She usually has awful luck with cars and dealers. :sick:
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    I solved that problem, Steve, by just not saying which car I think is better. That solves

    the problem of living in Hell for months....image

    ;)
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    just months? :P
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Dunno if it's a national thing or not, but Subaru is (or was) an underwriter for their broadcasts here in the Boston area.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Why does Forester have high maintenace/repair costs, especially after the 30K miles?

    Not on my '98 Forester. Just the usual maintenance you'd expect to do at 30k, 60k, and 90k. The only "repair" was a set of spark plug wires, but I caught a chipmunk chewing on those. :D

    As for resale, they're pretty close. If you got a better deal at the Subaru dealer, you might actually come out ahead. It really depends. Resale is usually stated as a % of list price, but those are pure fiction, so it's hard to say. I paid $19,200 for my '98, and Edmunds appraised it at about $4200 with 93k miles (and that's trade-in, private party is $5200). Not bad for a 9 year old vehicle.

    -juice
  • blue330xiblue330xi Member Posts: 56
    For what its worth consumer reports recommends all subarus, and almost all honda's. Id imagine they are both pretty reliable compared to the average car. Take my BMW, I have had no problems in 45k miles and it isnt even known to be reliable. Most (not all) modern cars are far more reliable then people think. If I needed a small SUV I would go forester. A real AWD system with a center diff instead of just a lone clutch pack, limited slip rear, coupled with a turbo flat 4 sounds more like a porsche then a economy car to me.... I dont understand why they are not more popular among the SUV set, they do everything well for a decent price, why would anyone drive a big lumbering SUV if they dont have too, its no fun. That said I wish they had a luxury version of the forester with NAV, heated seats...
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Hey the Forester does have heated seats (as well as mirrors and windshield) :P I completely agree that the Forester offers an excellent combination of features and capabilities for a reasonable price. Why it's not more popular is probably due to its perception as being closer kin to a wagon than an SUV with the ride height as the most obvious difference. While the lower CG is the biggest factor in the Forester's handling advantage, many "small SUV" buyers prefer the higher seating position of the CR-V or RAV4.

    -Frank
  • lafortuslafortus Member Posts: 5
    My wife and I were thinking of a CR-V. But, as everyone knows, the Cr-v is selling very fast. We looked up the specifics for Cr-v and RAV4 and, as far as we were concerned, they are essentially the "same" vehicles. Furthermore, we bought the last issue of Consumer reports and the RAV4 is rated above the Cr-v (but barely). We went to the Toyota dealer and they had several RAV4 on the lot. This enabled us to have a lower price (which would have been more difficult with the Cr-v I think). We did not hit the rock bottom price but we got 500 under TMV (I know a lot of you can do better). We liked our experience at the dealership. We had the car for a few days only and we really like it.

    If you are waiting for the Cr-v, I suggest to give a visit to the Toyota dealer. My opinion is that there is no need to wait all that time for a Cr-v if the RAV4 is available and, unlike the case of the Cr-v, the law of supply and demand plays in your favor there.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    That and the interior space. But I think the perception issue is the biggest hurdle. The shape and styling of the Forester has never projected the right image for the mass market.

    Of course, other than "I brake for plankton", I'm not sure what the new CR-V says.
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    Yeah, styling and image still sell. Why Subaru has to make the Forester so dorky-looking is beyond me. :confuse:
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    It's so dorks like me will feel comfortable driving them :P

    -Frank
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