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Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4 or Subaru Forester?

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Comments

  • jerry kjerry k Member Posts: 45
    We are looking for an SUV (like most people considering the CRV - the RAV4 - the Lexus RX 350 - and maybe the Hyundai Santa Fe. The Lexus 350 would be #1 but I don't feel like spending $40,000! The Santa Fe looks good on paper but I don't like the fact that it still has a negative view and depreciates more than the others. That leaves the CRV and RAV4 - the CRV seems better suited for us but all I have read is that people complain about road noise while it's on the interstate/freeway. So my question to 2007 CRV owners: is the noise tolerable or is it so bad that you wished you bought the RAV4 instead?
  • crvme3crvme3 Member Posts: 140
    I think it all boils down to personal tastes,feeling & individual tolerance for noise levels. We have been a Honda family for many years now & are quite satisfied. Our new CRV does not seem to have any more road noise than other vehicles I have driven, "is it there - yes" but again hence my opening statement. Noise is different/tolerable or not depending on the individual. I would suggest (if at all possible) to drive a new CRV for awhile to determine if it fits your liking as far as your personal noise tolerance. Good luck to you :)
  • stevecarstevecar Member Posts: 148
    We just went thru the same process. We are a Honda and Acura family. We picked up our 2007 CRV yesterday. It's a lot quiter than our Forrester, but noiser than our TL. Your cars that you are considering are all quite diverse. You really can't compare a CRV, Rav 4 and Sante to a lexus which can be 40-50K. Once we drove the Sante Fe and CRV is was difficult to decide. You may want to check out the CRV vs Sante Fe subject. We discounted the RAV 4 because of its size and tailgate and rear tire. But that's a personal preference. Like other people have and will say, Road noise is what you make of it. For some people, anything short of a Lexus or Acura level is not acceptable. We found the Honda has slightly more noise than the 6 cylinder Sante Fe. However, we felt that we just were more comfortable with another Honda and the road noie was just a sound level and not noise.
  • dobrovoddobrovod Member Posts: 15
    Has anyone seen parking assist (rear and/or front) on any U.S. spec small SUV? My wife and I are considering something like a Toyota RAV4 or Honda CRV and can't seem to find a vehicle with parking assist. We rented a Toyota Corolla in Europe last year it even it had parking assist on it.
  • beerloverbeerlover Member Posts: 20
    there is a backup sensor option on the crv but it will cost you......$500. go to the honda website, navigate to the crv site and use the "build and price" option. when building, you will get to extras and click on electronics and you will these details:

    "Help yourself in or out of a tight spot while helping to protect your paint
    Four Sensors emit audible beeps into the cabin while you back up, signaling objects as you approach them
    Beeps quicken as your vehicle gets closer to objects
    Note: Back-up sensor attachment is required for installation

    Installation costs not included. "
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,603
    Has anyone cross-shopped the new Mitsu Outlander with this group? It doesn't put out RAV V6 power, but seems plenty strong enough, and has gadgets galore. Seems like a big step up for Mitsubishi, is a decent RAV competitor, and it actually looks nice too. The mega-warranty is obviously trying to alleviate the legendary Mitsu resale disasters of the past.

    Still happy with my Forester, but I like to keep up with the latest...

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You can get a better deal in the aftermarket.

    I doubt dealers will stock vehicles that already have the feature, so why pay the OE markups if it's not factory installed? $500 sounds high, $2-300 is more like it.

    -juice
  • bubaabubaa Member Posts: 2
    Thought I'd share with the group on a video I found on "you tube" on some vehicle comparisons.

    I always wanted a Forester but ended up with an Impreza.
    Anyways, enjoy.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7dVFY5CxT0

    Bubaa
  • dzndzn Member Posts: 11
    I recently read a post (on another board) that addressed the front/rear power distribution of the CRV. The poster stated that the maximum power that could be distributed to the rear was 30% and that would somewhat negate the value of an all wheel drive vehicle. It essentially eliminated the CRV as an option for him.

    I currently own a 2001 Subaru Outback and vaguely remember that the manual transmission version of the Outback had a system that could deliver up to 50% power to the rear when needed while the automatic was slightly less.

    If anyone knows more about this power distribution issue and how it applies to the:

    CRV
    RAV4
    Forester
    Outback

    I'd appreciate the feedback.

    Although I am quite please with the all around performance of my Outback I have to admit that my previouly owned AWD Toyota Previa was better (in terms of traction) when it came to driving on snowy roads.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not sure what system the Previa had, but Toyota used to use Viscous Couplings, which is actually the same system in your MT5 Outback.

    That defaults to 50/50, and when the two axles move at different speeds (i.e. slip) the viscous fluid sheers and lock the two together temporarily. It can therefore send more than 50% of the power to the rear wheels, either actually.

    Nice thing about them is that they are full-time, i.e. they act as a center differential so both axles can be engaged the entire time.

    Manual transmission Foresters work the same way.

    I bet your Previa simply had better tires on it. Toyota moved away from the VC system for the 2006 RAV4, my guess is they did so to obtain better EPA fuel economy numbers, as the new system is part-time and actually less advanced.

    RAV4 defaults to pure FWD, and then sends power to the rear wheels when it senses slip. Not sure what % it can send to the rear, but I think it's less than 50%. When the latest generation was launched, information was scarce, leading me to believe they didn't really want a lot of scrutiny for the system.

    CR-V works in a similar manner using a fast-acting Rotary Blade Coupling.

    That video is interesting but keep in mind Subaru added VDC to some Forester models for MY2007, and Honda came out with a totally new CR-V. The video was used by SoA internally to help train dealership staff on how to "sell" the advantages of Subaru's drivetrain layout.

    The ramp test is very tough, and while the VTD and VDC systems manage to climb that ramp, my educated guess is that the Viscous Coupling and auto-AWD systems would fail. Else they would have showed them. Then again, RBC, Haldex, and Torsen systems would also all fail to climb that ramp.

    -juice
  • dzndzn Member Posts: 11
    If by MT5 you are referring to a 5-speed manual, my car is actually an automatic.

    Bottom line...which car do you think would be better in snowy conditions

    Honda CRV
    Subaru Outback or Forester
    Toyota Rav 4

    I would be getting an auto-transmission.

    Thanks in advance.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Oh, OK, you mentioned a manual so I thought that's what you had.

    Honda actually lowered the new CR-V, so it has less clearance than the previous model. Still better than regular cars.

    RAV4 I think gets 7.1-7.5" depending on the model, though that information may be outdated. Plus, they offer 3 different rim sizes (16", 17", 18") so I'm not sure if that has an effect on clearance.

    Forester has the most ground clearance and the only full-time AWD system among those 3. Ground clearance is 7.9" for the turbos, 8.1" for the 2.5l base engine.

    I would go with the Forester if that is your criteria. Add snow tires to any one of these and they'd be excellent snow vehicles.
  • dzndzn Member Posts: 11
    Clearance is not that much of an issue. Traction and maintaining control are the characteristics I am looking for.
    That's why I was interested in the different AWD systems (front/rear power distribution etc) and how well the vehicles would perform in snowy conditions. The fact that the poster had mentioned that the maximum of 30% power distribution to the rear on the CRV made him eliminate that vehicle as an option made me reconsider it as a viable option.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,603
    Hey Juice, maybe it's time to drag out the ol' Subaru training video again?

    The Forester with a manual defaults to a 50/50 power split front and rear, which is ideal in my mind. Add the ground clearance and I think it would be the ride of choice for snow. I did drive up a forest road in early winter with mine in about 9 inches of snow. About 3 miles. You could hear the underside drag. I am not saying it was a smart idea, but I made the entire drive without a hang up and I knew the road well. Only other vehicle i saw was a tacoma, and they looked at me like I was from another planet.

    RAV4 would be next for me. It's system is capable of shifting 45% of the power to the rear, and it also has a switch that allows you to lock that 45% to the back up to around 20 mph or so. Also has hill-descent control and hill assist control; cool features I wouldn't mind Subaru adopting...especially HDC. I would worry about Toyota's typically over-intrusive VDC though.

    CR-V is last place for me. Que the said video...

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    To be fair that video showed the last generation CR-V. The new one has less clearance, but I'm sure the AWD system was enhanced in some way.

    Also, Subaru didn't show its own weaknesses. While models with VTD or VDC can climb that now infamous ramp, Foresters without VDC cannot (neither can a RAV4 or CR-V). Only the Forester XT Sports automatic could climb it in this class.

    I bet SH-AWD models like the RD-X would also have success on that ramp. BMW had a demo I saw at one of their events where an X5 could climb, so X-Drive probably can, too. And Audi they had on-site could not. Same for a Lexus RX, both failed to climb the same ramp.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "The fact that the poster had mentioned that the maximum of 30% power distribution to the rear on the CRV made him eliminate that vehicle as an option made me reconsider it as a viable option."

    Shame about that. That poster is incorrect and ruled out a vehicle based on bogus information. Power distribution to the rear is near 70%. Older CR-Vs went to a 50/50 split, but Honda increased rear torque capacity 20% for 2007.

    While we're at it, Juice made a mistake in describing RT4WD in one of his recent posts, too.

    "CR-V works in a similar manner using a fast-acting Rotary Blade Coupling."

    I suspect he has it confused with the system used on the original Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute. Those two used a rotary blade coupling. (They have since changed to an electric sensor and clutch system.)

    No, the CR-V uses a combination of two activation methods. The primary activation of the system comes from a set of hydraulic pumps, which engage a set of wet clutch packs. That's been the basis of the CR-V's AWD since 1996. A few years back, they added a ball-ramp clutch for faster and smoother operation.

    First, the ball-ramp clutch engages the main clutch packs. This sends "some" torque to the rear immediately. The hydraulic pumps follow up to reinforce the connection and maximize power distribution.

    You can find more details about how RT4WD works at the bottom of this link.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Oh yeah, as for which is best in the snow?

    The Forester has the clearance and the AWD to make going forward easiest. However, last I checked only the turbo model had a Stability Control program. So, stopping and maintaining directional control once you do start sliding is going to be more difficult for the average driver.

    What you need is a good combination of basic handling traits, good AWD, good clearance for deep snow, and stability control. Weigh those factors based on the kind of snow you most frequently encounter, but do not place too much weight on any one factor.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Some people turn VSC off in the sand and snow. It isn't always helpful.

    Not saying I wouldn't want it, because I do, but I would want an off switch, at least.

    -juice

    PS I stand corrected regarding RT4WD, I guess I'm guilty of grouping the part-time systems together :(
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    People will turn off VSA (technically the traction control) if launching from a slick surface, or if you need to "rock" the car out of a rut. However, once you get going, you are far better off with it left on.

    Most vehicles have an on/off button. The CR-V does. Not sure about the RAV4. In the past, Toyota has not given the driver that option, but they've recently changed their tune on the issue.

    p.s. Not a problem. There are so many AWD systems on the market, who can keep up?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    who can keep up?

    The worst part is that manufacturers are making less and less information available about these systems.

    Including the CR-V, IIRC we were trying to get specifics about what improvements they had made and information was pretty scarce up until the launch.

    Same for Subaru, though we assume since they used the VDC name that it's similar to the systems on the H6 Outback and Tribeca.

    Subaru's off switch is shown here:

    image

    The blanks are for options like the heated mirrors, wiper de-icers, etc.
  • pisulinopisulino Member Posts: 78
    The best one in snow and to climb the super ramp is:

    Suzuki Grand Vitara...(oops sorry is not in the list)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They're fun, I went and test drove one. Standard V6, off road potential, etc.

    The engine is a bit buzzy, not just for a V6, and it could use a bit more refinement.

    Still, it's nice to see Suzuki offering something different from the car-based crowd.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    This is probably the way to go.

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/acura_awd.htm

    Hopefully, most folks aren't pushing their cars that hard on snow-covered public roads.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,603
    I will concede that the Suzuki would be tops in off road potential. When you look over at the prices paid discussion for the Grand Vitara, there are people claiming they are picking up top of the line Luxury V6 4wd models for $18-19k +TTL. Who knows if its true, but if so, that is a heck of a deal. No wonder Suzuki dealers are hard to find...

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    However, last I checked only the turbo model had a Stability Control program. So, stopping and maintaining directional control once you do start sliding is going to be more difficult for the average driver.

    Average driver would go to a snow covered parking lot and learn what the car can and can not do at the beginning of each winter season.

    VSC is not the panacea, it is more of a nuisance.

    "Sometimes you have to turn left to go right" 1953 Hudson Hornet.

    Well, VSC does not let you do that, and having complete control ov the vehicle is atmost important when driving in limited traction condition.
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    VSC is not the panacea, it is more of a nuisance.

    "Sometimes you have to turn left to go right" 1953 Hudson Hornet.

    Well, VSC does not let you do that, and having complete control ov the vehicle is atmost important when driving in limited traction condition.

    I don't think this is a fair characterization. ESC isn't going to wrest control of the vehicle away from you; on the contrary, it'll read your input and help you direct the car exactly where you want to go.

    On the other hand, I think the benefits of ESC are often vastly overstated and overhyped. ESC is of most help to a high-weight, high-center-of-gravity vehicle being driven beyond its limits. Outside of that, the data are pretty murky from what I can tell. I think it's spectacular that lives can be saved by ESC helping to reduce single-vehicle and rollover accidents, but I also think that driver carelessness and impairment lead to a lot of those types of accidents anyway.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Saw that article.

    I'm happy to see the press evaluating the unique characteristics of an AWD system.

    Kudos to Acura for a system that is proactive and send power where it is needed, vs. most others that try to take power away from where it isn't needed (seems backwards, no?).

    Acura really needs a better name for the system, though. SH-AWD just isn't catchy, especially from the people that created VTEC.

    How much ground clearance does an RD-X have? My concern would be high-centering given the low breakover angle and long-ish wheelbase.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I'm not one of those people who puts all their faith in statistics, but I do take research conducted in reality over advice from cartoon characters.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "Acura really needs a better name for the system, though."

    Ditto that.

    Ground clearance is the big problem for the RDX. For that reason, it would not be my first recommendation for anyone who frequently treks on unplowed roads. I, myself, had difficulties with the town plows leaving a berm at the end of my street.

    While I agree that it is a valid concern, the poster above stated they weren't concerned with that particular problem. That's probably true for many drivers.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Over the years we've compared just about everything else. Why not interior air quality?

    CR-V
    http://www.healthycar.org/vehicle.details.php?getrecno=75

    RAV4
    http://www.healthycar.org/vehicle.details.php?getrecno=190

    Forester
    http://www.healthycar.org/vehicle.details.php?getrecno=169
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Links didn't work, took me to a registration page, and then a blank data page? :confuse:

    Any how, it does not surprise me one bit to see the Forester scoring poorly there, when they say "outgassing" they ain't kidding. We call it Subaru New Car Stench. It was hard to bear for the first couple of weeks.

    Not sure why but the Tribeca and even the Impreza (made in Gunma, Japan, right along side the Forester) score a lot better.

    Solution: if you park in a covered area, crack a window open for the first week or so, let it vent out. :sick:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm going to have to run out and buy a bamboo shift knob!

    (The site is a bit irritating - I pasted http://www.healthycar.org/vehicle.details.php into the address bar, skipped the request for info if it flops up, and then pasted ?getrecno=169 or whatever Varmint's last number was for each car to get there).
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Wonder if it was cached when I did it.

    For anyone else, go to the homepage and select Vehicle Guide near the top. Then you can use any of the search tools.

    http://www.healthycar.org/home.php

    Juice, I'm not surprised either. It seems that the newer vehicles all score higher than the older models. I've read news announcements from Mazda and Honda promising to combat the dreaded "new car smell". I'm sure every manufacturer is doing the same thing. The change may simply be implemented with the newer models and still in the works for older designs.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yet you can buy air fresheners and even aerosol sprays with "New Car Smell". :D
  • n_dimasn_dimas Member Posts: 2
    So which is the best small SUV for moderate off road conditions - CR-V, RAV, Forester, something else? Why?

    I'm trying to find something with decent gas mileage that can handle average to moderately difficult dirt roads.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Dirt road? Guess you'll have to define moderately difficult too, lol.

    If it doesn't rain, just about anything with a bit of clearance should work fine. I take my loaded minivan on lots of Forest Service roads here in Idaho but I have a lot of scrapes on my undercarriage and oil pan too. :blush:
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,603
    Forester - Best ground clearance and proactive awd system. 50/50 power split default for the manual tranny. Some models have limited slip rear. Narrowest, which helps on some roads.

    RAV4 - Reactive awd system but the driver can lock power front and rear at low speed. Has hill descent control and hill assist control, which can be helpful.

    CRV - This would be my last choice for any off road application. Reactive awd with no ability to lock the power split. Lowest ground clearance.

    I'd give this one to Forester. But it depends on what 'moderately difficult' means. If off road is a real priority, the Suzuki Grand Vitara would be worth a look as it is in this size class but has a true low range.

    Better tires would improve all of these little guys. ;)

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "So which is the best small SUV for moderate off road conditions - CR-V, RAV, Forester, something else?"

    That's a loaded question.

    As our host stated, what you consider moderate may not be the same as what I, or anyone else, might consider moderate. Also, there are many reasons why terrain might be considered difficult.

    If your "dirt road" is difficult because of slick mud or loose sand, I might recommend the Forester. That vehicle is very good with low traction situations. However, if the road is difficult because of sudden rises and falls, I might not recommend the Sube. It has some of the worst approach and departure angles.

    In my experience, any one of these three will handle typical, unimproved dirt roads.
  • n_dimasn_dimas Member Posts: 2
    Ok - to be more specific, I'm not talking about your typical forest service roads. I'm talking about very poorly maintained forest service or BLM roads with lots of rock and debris, sudden rises and falls, and some pretty sharp angles (from left to right accross the road - in other words, so that the left wheels of the car will be significantly lower than the right wheels while moving forward). I need to be able to access remote wilderness areas in Arizona.

    As for clearance: RAV = 7.5; CR-V = 7.3; Forester = 8.1. So Forester seems the best choice from that perspective. Does it really have such poor approach and departure angles that the RAV would be preferable?
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Just to be clear, when I wrote that the Forester has some of the worst approach/departure angles, I'm talking about worst in class. Not the worst for any vehicle.

    A quick check puts the RAV4 at the head of the class, with the CR-V a close second. However, the low clearance pretty much ruins any capability the CR-V once had off the beaten path. (I had some fun with my '99 model.)

    RAV4 Approach/Departure = 29.3/25.4
    CR-V Approach/Departure = 29/24
    Forester Approach/Departure = 22.3/20.7

    Given that you may end up traversing over deadfall, rocks, and such, take a close look at the undercarriage of any vehicle you select. "Ground clearance" as measured for publications can be misleading. It is often simply the distance from the ground to the rear differential. However, any of these CUVs may have a chin valance up front that will get ripped off when passing over something only 6" tall. Furthermore, the clearance to the vehicle's sills can be just as important as clearance to the diff.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    typical forest service roads

    We went Jeeping near Massanutten, VA, on some of those, and they can get pretty bad.

    I was in a Chevy Blazer, the older 2 door models, and that thing bottomed out on the trailer hitch receiver repeatedly. It was a really rough and bouncy ride.

    The stock Jeeps were OK.

    One lifted Jeep in the group cruised right over all that stuff.

    To be honest, for that kind of road I'd be looking at an XTerra, FJ Cruiser, or at least a Suzuki Grand Vitara.

    Subaru offers a rear skid plate, so at the very least get one of those. The aftermarket makes front skid plates, too. Be prepared for damage to the front and rear bumpers on any model listed in the thread title of this topic.
  • kavoomkavoom Member Posts: 181
    I'm a hard core Subaru Forester owner, but I just saw that Suzuki. If you want AWD and VSC, and for about 16K? hmmm... Interesting AWD system also... Now, if they would just give it a little juice...
  • pisulinopisulino Member Posts: 78
    Suzuki Grand Vitara As for clearance: 7.9 true 4x4 full-time 4WD using limited-slip center differential, off-road 4WD with selectable center differential lock and low range transfer case, traction control and electronic stability control.(AWD)vehicles have no significant offroad capabilities.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "(AWD) vehicles have no significant offroad capabilities."

    True. But true 4x4 vehicle have no significant on-road capabilities.

    I think it's a safe assumption the member with the question won't spend all day on the trails. The issue is finding something that meets the daily needs and won't stink the few times it is used on trails. Not an easy task.
  • kavoomkavoom Member Posts: 181
    "(AWD) vehicles have no significant offroad capabilities."

    Shhh, don't tell the Aussies that.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    To be fair, the Aussies get things on their Subies that we do not. Like factory skid plates and low range gearing... :mad:
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,603
    UK gets this too...maybe its a right-hand drive thing...

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think liability laws in the US are to blame. If they put in the low range, some hillbillies will break the thing and then sue Subaru for their own mistake.

    For the same reason, our tow ratings are about half what they are in the UK. :sick:
  • moosmoos Member Posts: 17
    I am at such a loss as to what to replace my Matrix with it jsut gets worse the more I read. I found that the Rav4 has the same alignment issues that I had with the Matrix (ate tires for breakfast) so though it's what I want I may have to settle for something else.....what's with Toyota keeping the camber negative and the toe in, why not straight. I jsut got Toyota to take bace the Trix and now I find the Rav with the same issue...HELP!!!! To all the Subies...how did you get used to driving what looks like a box and the clear glass thing just drives me nuts, hubby says we can just get the windows done aftermarket. I travel alot on business and don't like the idea of people looking in the car. CRV...not thrilled with the "roll up " back seats why not just fold flat? somebody please save me from too much info!!!lolol...gone are the days when you went to the dealer and didn't know what you got til it was sitting there all yellow and lemony(!) I have spent the last 3 days researching all this stuff on the net and am no better off than I was before......Test driving a subaru tomorrow, then crv and rav next week....ADVICE ANYONE. By the way skiing is imperative so they all better be good in snow. :confuse:
  • growler5growler5 Member Posts: 67
    What I'd do -

    Before making a test drive: Make a list of what you want in your next vehicle and prioritize them. Likewise, make a list of what you absolutely do not want. Anything not on the two lists would be in the "doesn't matter" category.

    After each test drive, review your impressions against the lists. You might also pick up a few more love / hate items to add to your lists after each test drive.

    When you get to the end of the test drives, go over the lists one more time and make your choice based on how you felt each vehicle met your criteria. If you find that there's a tie for the best fit, go back for another test drive of the contenders. If you still can't pick between the best two (or three), then don't sweat it, either of your favorites will be a good choice.

    Driving in snow: I have an '05 Forester, live on top of a mountain on a dirt road, and have had no problems with getting around with the AWD in the snow.

    Driving around in a box: It's great for being able to see what's happening on the road around you. The roll-shade cover for behind the rear seat does a good job of hiding stuff in the back.

    You mentioned tires. The stock Geolandars on my Subie lasted 45k miles, no problems with uneven wear due to alignment. Tires were rotated per manufacturer specs.

    Too confusing to decide on which one to buy :confuse: ? It's nice having a choice :) !
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