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  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    "Whatever you do, Rocky, don't look at this.
    Oh, and to save you the math: 332hp 5250 rpm and 356 ft-lb 2000 rpm."

    Now why in the HELL doesn't Ford bring this to the US?!?!? They haven't had anything that even resembles a sports sedan since the SVT Contour went away in 2000. Too bad they drive on the wrong side of the road down under... I have a friend that goes there on business a couple times each year. Would be a great mount for a rural mailman, though! :shades:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Does anyone remember the seats in the old Audi 200's. I still haven't found more comfortable seats than those guys. I wished GM, would take one of those and clone it for the next CTS :blush:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I've always been mad at our dinosaurs that build cool cars over sea's and don't give us the same benefits. :cry:

    Rocky
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    Also notice that you can get a 6 speed manual with ANY engine, not just the base 4 or 6, or even at all these days! Americans are a shiftless (lazy) lot... I saw an blurb in R&T a couple months ago that said someting like 80-90% of cars sold in Europe had manual trannys, while it was less than 10% in the US. There have been many cars I've considered (like the Lincoln LS8), then ditched because they were auto-only. :mad:
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well in 1998 I was not old, but I was looking for a nicely styled car, which the Corolla was ( actually the best looking one, styled after the 1992 Camry, which was their best style), with good gas mileage, reliability, with good resale, and really good build to it. It replaced the Achieva I had. I have short legs, but had the seat pushed back pretty far, so yes it was not the best in roominess. The Corolla and Camry tend to bobble on the freeway in high winds. Sometime the transmission hesitates to kick down to first when launching from an on-ramp from a slow roll. These are the only issues with the car in seven years of ownership. Drove it on longer trips for vacations, and lost of short hops to the store as well. The car looked almost brand new seven years later. No creaks and moans, nor wind noise. It was like a mini-luxury car -- yeah, I know a bit too small for luxury, but the feel of a good ride and quality materials used inside was very good. Now they use more hard plastic and the car seems too tall. Do not like it as well. -Loren

    P.S. For all of you that love the design of the Lucerne, note the back end is an enlarged Corolla style from the 1998 style. Personally, I think it worked better for a smaller car. They need to modify the rear on the Lucy.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I have to agree we are lazy. I will always prefer a manuel in a performance car over a auto. I think one reason why the ratio is so high is because we don't teach kids how to drive a stick in drivers ED. :mad:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Loren, you keep cracking me up. You are a very detailed person which isn't a bad thing pal. :D

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I will see y'all in the morning. Gotta get ready for work. :cry:

    Rocky
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I remember my last business trip to Europe - a trip to Geneva, Switzerland. I picked up a Ford Focus (the really neat European version of course) with a 5-speed manual. When I picked up my Swiss colleague to attend a conference, he was absolutely shocked to discover an American driving a stick shift vehicle. He said (and I quote exactly): "I thought all Americans drove automatics." Wideglide is right, the vast majority of European vehicles are stick shifts. Not only that, but they get all of the cool vehicles as well.
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    Now here's an issue to get us back ON TOPIC... GM, Ford & Mopar need to start offering MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS on ALL models. That might make some sales that now are going to the Japanese and Europeans simply because they DO offer manual trannys. I know that is a deal killer in MY book.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The Yukon, Tahoe and Suburban are more mass market than almost any car.

    The comment was "none". I would list 7, but it depends on the definition. Is the Aura a hit? Yes. Some just do not know it yet. In a month all will. ;)

    The newest vehicle you listed is the Cobalt and that has been out two years now. And the Cobalt is sellng pretty well now. About 240K per year compared to Civic 370K and sales keep going up. I did not list it because I would not call it a "certifiable" hit. The others are kinda out of the "few last years". I think the Impala was also missed in the list. It is doing pretty well at about 320K per year. But again not a "certifiable" hit.

    but you are right. We will have to see how the new mass market cars do.
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    "The Yukon, Tahoe and Suburban are more mass market than almost any car."

    IMHO, big SUV's are on the way out, with the cuurent oil/gas situation. Sales of them are slumping badly. Soon they will become (once again) niche vehicles bought by those actually NEED them. People are waking up and realizing they don't need an Expedition or Suburban that gets 13MPG to haul 2 kids and some groceries. Hence the rapid expansion of the smaull-ute and crossover vehicle markets.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    That's a non-starter, even though I've always had a manual in my fleet.

    We Americans have long since voted with our feet! In fact, despite its relative expense, the automatic transmission took the country by storm when it became available on every US make and model in the 50s, easily outpacing power steering and power brake take rates (and of course, way ahead of the then-miniscule a/c take rates).
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    the reason American drivers adopted the automatic tranny is because driving a manual prevents them from reaching into the back seat to smack their kids
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Au contraire - I drive a manual and I have NO problem reaching into the back seat to smack the kids.

    I shift really quickly. Leaves me plenty of time for the other pleasures in life....
  • escambiaguyescambiaguy Member Posts: 35
    Or stuffing their face with a Big Mac. LOL
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    first came along, some in the press speculated that Ghosn could gain a great deal from the Opel/Vauxhall distribution networks in Europe - since Renaults are sold mostly in France. Ghosn sure sounds eager to push this thing forward from his latest remarks. Guess we'll know the outcome in a couple of weeks, huh?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    How can you eat a Big Mac and talk on a cell phone while changing gears????

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    I would love to have a manual, but in the kind of traffic most people face today, it is really pointless. Just when you get into 3rd you'll have to stop and start all over again.

    So, if 90% of North Americans want automatics it just doesn't pay to make manuals.

    When in Spain a few years ago manuals were about $150 a week to rent, automatics about $500, because thay are so rare (and I guess they can take advantage of American tourists) ;)

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Our family car was a Falcon station wagon. I would guess more like 85 HP, unless it had an optional engine, but that was 1960's :blush:
    It was overhauled every 20 to 30K miles due to smog apparatus mucking up the engine.

    Yeah, would it not be something to see Aussie Falcons and Holdens all over the roads of America. Now there would be some true stock car racing.
    -Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    What the heck does GM get? GM sure does not need any more platforms.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Gm could make major inroads by offering manuals on their midsize sedans. It may only be 10-20% of the market, but it's still 10-20%. Half of them are in my situation. We hate small cars because they are cheap on the suspension, have small engines, and of coure, the interiors suck.

    But we don't want to have to pay to buy a C230 or BMW 3 series. So we begrudgingly buy automatics as we don't want a small 4 cylinder tin can.

    But 5% of the market flooding to GM because they offer their better vehicles in a stickshift... Marketing gold.

    Seriously - if GM offered a stickshift in any of their V6 or larget engines for under 30K, I'd buy one tommorrow. Big engines and a manual transmission are what made us love muscle cars in the first place. And 250+HP in ANY engine qualifies it as a muscle-car. All that's missing is the 5 speed. :)
  • kapbotkapbot Member Posts: 113
    About a month ago, I bought a Saturn Ion with the 2.4, 5 speed.I would not have bought this car with the automatic tranny.
    I was surprised at the number of manual trans Ion available, considering that I bought a Saturn.
    I thought that most Saturns would be purchased by non car people, like my mother, who wouldn't drive anything but an auto.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    A congressman once said, " a billion here and a billion there, and sooner or later it adds up to real money."
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well the standard CTS is a stick. Never saw one on the lot. People do not seem to want one these days. The CTS is a reliable car, according to Consumer Reports, and may actually be a Cadillac which would be fun to drive, and own, with or without a stick. One of a couple interesting works from GM. The Corvette is a pretty hot number, with stick or not.

    As for smaller cars with good interiors, which are not tin can cars, they make those already. Most are Japan make, and some are Korean brands. Once you get away from the domestic small cars with cheap interiors, the World changes. Actually, it changed years ago. ;)
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Test drove a Mustang GT with a stick. A fairly stiff clutch. I would not want to use such a clutch every day. Maybe for a day or play, or if I was one to be doing some track time, but in no way as a daily driver. It is simply too heavy.

    Maybe the clutch or how well the stick works is an issue with some cars. Mostly it is a preference of the buying public to not have a stick which makes them so rare. I would like to try one of those Tiptronic automatics some day. Sounds kinda interesting.
    -Loren
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Serioiusly though, GM buyers tend to go for the V6's. Year after year of sales at GM shows that when a 4 cylinder is offered the customers choose the V6.

    Perhaps that's because if a buyer wants a 4 cyl they are looking for refinement and are not finding it with GM?

    I think it's a mistake to not have a good 4 just because few GM buyers want them. GM may be excluding a good number of potential buyers. People starting out in their late teens/early 20's often get smaller 4 cylinder cars (frequently a Japanese nameplate). Once these youngsters have a good experience with Honda, Toyota, etc., then GM may never get a sale from them. And thusly GMs demographics age along to the point where their market share suffers big time.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Uhh, Europeans get all the cool vehicles because unlike many Americans, Europeans are SERIOUS drivers. Americans must have vehicles that will fit their OVERWEIGHT butts, feel like a living room when driving, and have enough room for their rugrats and gawd knows what else.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    62vetteefp in answer to your question regarding Toyota's styling of the Camry for marketing in other countries, I think they just change the names. There really isn't that much difference in styling

    I noticed this when I went to Australia last spring (gorgeous country by the way). Cars that were actually Camry's had different but very similar moldings of plastic or metal on the rear and and perhaps sides.

    The cars also had names like Vienta which Australians would better connect with because much of their ancestry is European.

    General Motors is big there only because they own huge shares of a popular Korean auto company by the name of Holden that has a significant market share there. You rarely see anything if at all with a GM nameplate on it in Australia; at least not the area I was at (Gold Coast, Broadbeach, Southport)
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    >they don't seem to have anywhere near these kind of QC issues

    Do you have data for that statement or it more perpetuation of the mantra? I read the Camry woes, various honda problem discussions. Starting with the 03 Accord, it sounds like regression to the mean is occuring.

    >GM cuts corners wherever they can

    I found that when I test drove Camry and Accord I felt and saw minimum in everything. I called it minimization. That was in 02. Have things drastically improved?
    _______________

    How do you expect the American public to forget about 30 year of the unbelievable horrors of bad quality cars they embarrassed us with. A couple years ago GM admitted in it's own print advertising they had been producing crap for the last 25 years. THERE, there's your supporting data sir.

    Anyone with the slightest bit of test drive and ownership experience knows that American car quality just is not up to par with comparable European and Japanese models. IF it was, GM wouldn't be having so many problems...
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Well I am sure am glad I know how to drive a stick! Oh my gawd! $350 difference in car rental fees? Are you serious?? And I plan on going to Spain next year
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    "No, they just expect you to be a left-foot braker."

    Which explains those folks driving around with their brake lights either constantly flickering or ON.

    And begs the question: with manual transmission cars, most braking is done with the RIGHT foot (using the left for the clutch).

    Isn't the 'proper' way to drive with an automatic is with your LEFT foot essentially inert on the floor to the left of the brake and your RIGHT foot moving from gas to brake and back again?
    __________________

    One of the things you people who love automatic transmissions are forgetting is that people who like and drive manual transmissions like me, don't have to use their brakes all the time to slow down; they can downshift. Also, manual transmissions allow for better maneuvering of the vehicle, and centering of gravity.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    "Solstice, Sky, Corvette, Yukon, Tahoe, Suburban, Aura all certifiable hits when it comes to media and sales."

    The Aura is the only car on that list that is a mass market vehicle and it's far too early to call it a certifiable sales hit even though the early reviews have been decent. It's only been out a couple of months and I am yet to see one on the street in NY.

    If your list was G6, Lacrosse, Cobalt, Malibu, Equinox than they'd be on the right track.
    _______________________

    gsemike where is the Buick Lacrosse selling? I've only seen four in the area where I live (Los Angeles) since it's been introduced
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    General Motors is big there only because they own huge shares of a popular Korean auto company by the name of Holden that has a significant market share there.

    You were joking, right? Holden is not a Korean company. And GM owns all of Holden. It is GM. Since 1931.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    they are selling in Detroit. Every day I see at least 20.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Gm could make major inroads by offering manuals on their midsize sedans. It may only be 10-20% of the market, but it's still 10-20%. Half of them are in my situation.

    For manual availability look to Pontiac. G5, G6, Solstice, Vibe and GTO all offer a manual. Only the GP and Torrent do not.

    I am sure the new G8 (or whatever it is called) will offer a manual. Manual sales are in the dirt in this country. But GM does give the buyer a choice and it is pretty low penetration at Pontiac.

    That being said I am surprized the Aura does not offer a manual. Perhaps it will.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Your hatred oozing all over your post is clouding reality for you.

    >A couple years ago GM admitted in it's own print advertising they had been producing crap for the last 25 years. THERE, there's your supporting data sir.

    I don't believe they called it "crap" and they didn't say 25 years. There goes your "data's" validity.

    >experience knows that American car quality

    Please check JDPowers quality data for several variations of time. The some GMs are above your European and Japanese models and the number of concerns difference between most of them is very small statistically. That's different than 10 years and more ago. Things have changed. You don't seem to have realized that.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >General Motors is big there only because they own huge shares of a popular Korean auto company by the name of Holden

    More clouds.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >where is the Buick Lacrosse selling?

    There are a LOT of them around this area. And there have been ever since they came out. They are everywhere. Clouds.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    Just remember that the people that post on Edmunds are usually "car nuts" and love things like powerful engines and the fun of driving cars, often with a manual transmission. But I sometimes think that we are in the minority- most people look at cars as simple appliances to get from Point A to Point B- so manual transmissions in cars are not that popular. Plus the urbanization of America and the increasing traffic makes manuals not that desireable- and I am in that category. Why are manual transmissions popular in Europe and much of the world- I don't know, maybe for the same reason that diesels are popular and are oddly styled cars like the SMART.

    Interesting article in the Washington Post this morning about Cuba- their cities have all these 1940s and 1950s American cars still chugging around, and in the countryside of Cuba they don't even have that- still lots of horse drawn vehicles hauling people and goods, kind of like the 1850s. Guess they don't have to worry about manual or automatic with a horse, right (Haha)
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    IMHO, big SUV's are on the way out, with the cuurent oil/gas situation. Sales of them are slumping badly. Soon they will become (once again) niche vehicles bought by those actually NEED them. People are waking up and realizing they don't need an Expedition or Suburban that gets 13MPG to haul 2 kids and some groceries. Hence the rapid expansion of the smaull-ute and crossover vehicle markets.

    Actually big SUV's are not on the way out. It is the midsized SUVs that will be replaced. There is a huge market in this country for large SUV's. Not a niche. The mid size ones will be replaced by CUV's where the need is to haul lightweight stuff like kids and suitcases. Full size SUV's will go down in volume but will still be a huge market especially with $2 gas now here. Hopefully though the buyers of the large SUV's will be those who really need the capability. Those who do not will buy vehicles like the Enclave and Outlook. Oh my, GM has a plant full of those vehicles that are needed coming out!

    Five years from now, Detroit's automakers still will be able to rely on sales of full-size pickups and SUVs, but as consumer preferences shift, midsize SUVs stand the greatest risk of being eliminated, an industry analyst said Tuesday in Dearborn.

    Global Insight Inc., an automotive and economic research firm, hosted an automotive conference to give clients its predictions on how the industry will look by 2011. A presentation on SUVs and pickups – key sources of profits for Detroit automakers – indicated that Detroit automakers must focus on crossover utility vehicles to capture consumers who want better gas mileage but still enjoy the daily hauling capabilities offered by large and midsize SUVs.

    More people don't want to give up their SUVs, they just want them to be more efficient, refined and comfortable, said Rebecca Lindland, associate director of Global Insight's North American Automotive Group. Those customers open the potential for CUVs.

    "You're separating out the 'want people' and 'need people,' " Lindland said. "You do have owners of large SUVs who really use them as they were intended, to haul and tow."


    Already this year, sales have plunged on mainstay SUVs, such as the Ford Explorer, which is down 30.9 percent, and Chevrolet TrailBlazer, which is down 30.0 percent.

    Gas hits $3 and the midsize SUV "plunges" 30%?? That is a big hit but it is only a 30% drop. Yhat means that 70% of the buyers did not care about the price hike of gas. WOW. Seems like it would have dropped a whole bunch more than that. They do not even talk about the full size Tahoe SUV which is up or even with last year.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    They're selling here in Philadelphia! My girlfriend started a trend. She bought her car in March 2005 and suddenly LaCrosses are everywhere!
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    Well I am sure am glad I know how to drive a stick! Oh my gawd! $350 difference in car rental fees? Are you serious?? And I plan on going to Spain next year

    It is true! Start practising with a manual!

    I just tried it on this site;
    Euro-car rentals

    One week for a midsize stick was $500, a compact automatic was $800! If you get the smallest cars, they will be small = like smaller than a Smart Car.

    Be sure to go along the Costa del Sol area if you can and there are magnificent caverns with a theatre inside - beautiful.

    Driving is a little tricky, they go fast but they are more skilled than we are. Lots of turn abouts, best just to keep going, they don't like it if you stop. Your supposed to keep moving and blend in.

    Great place to go, and prices are similar if not a little less than in the U.S.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 31,964
    they are selling in Detroit. Every day I see at least 20.

    Do you go by a used car lot?

    I have seen about 10 in the last 2 months. I was thinking they would probably make good taxi cabs though. Kind of a utilitarian look with lots of room inside.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,272
    If your list was G6, Lacrosse, Cobalt, Malibu, Equinox than they'd be on the right track.

    What I was getting at is that these are GM's mass market cars and all of them are falling short of being certified sales hits. Niche cars like the Solstice and Vette are nice but their success does not a turnaround make.

    I do see some Balts and G6s around but only because they're heavily discounted. In NYC and Long Island, Lacrosses, Lucernes and Equinoxes are rare sightings.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    From a guy who does not normally have good things to say about GM.

    Fit and finish on the base Aura XE are impeccable. Gaps between exterior panels are barely noticeable. All interior materials, including the seat fabric, are first-rate. Driver-seat comfort is excellent, as good as, if not better than, that of substantially more costly cars. In short, the Aura XE's passenger cabin is a winner, a visually stunning knockout,

    It is the first genuinely likable, got-to-have, give-me-that-one sedan to come from Saturn.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/22/AR2006092200571.- - html?nav=lsc2ac
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Do you go by a used car lot?

    No, in fact I do not think I even go by a used car lot in my travels. Oh, except for the one that sells used ferraris and stuff.

    Just normal people here driving them.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Year-to-date sales through August, compared to like-2005, from Ward's Automotive Reports:

    Buick LaCrosse: 50,667, down 23.4%
    Buick Lucerne/LeSabre: 70,034, up 4.3%

    Chevy Cobalt: 163,343, up 9.8%
    Chevy Malibu: 122,352, down 32.8%
    Chevy Impala: 197,304, up 22.9%

    Pontiac G6: 108,640, up 44.5%
    Pontiac Grand Prix: 71,799, down 12.6%
    Pontiac Solstice: 14,403 (up from 83, since sales had just started)

    Saturn Ion: 71,269, up 3.5%
    Saturn Sky: 4,774 (sales have just started)

    Cadillac CTS: 38,947, down 9.5%
    Cadillac DTS/Deville: 39,427, down 4.0%
    Cadillac SRX: 15,227, down 9.4%
    Cadillac Escalade (excluding ESV, EXT): 24,274, up 11.0%

    Chevy Silverado: 434,937, down 16.7%
    Chevy Colorado: 64,644, down 34.9%

    Chevy Tahoe: 110,577, down 3.0%
    Chevy Suburban: 48,035, down 25.4%
    Chevy TrailBlazer: 118,718, down 30.0%
    Chevy Equinox: 80,955, down 17.9%

    GMC Yukon: 45,640, down 17.2%
    (Other comparable GMC models are also down by double digits.)

    Except for Solstice and Sky, these are volume models within each make (no cherry picking).

    Key import competitors to follow.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "That's different than 10 years and more ago. Things have changed. You don't seem to have realized that."

    You posted (a long way back) that your family had some bad experiences with Ford but have been more than satisfied with GM.

    Given the fact that you are happy with your GM, what would it take for you to consider a Ford? Afterall, I'm SURE that it's been more than 10 years.....

    My point is (since you probably won't respond to this post either) is that once a consumer has a bad experience (or several bad experiences) with a particular make, AND THEN IS SATISFIED WITH A NEW MAKE, then it is extremely hard for them to consider "going back".

    This is GM's problem. Yes, I'm sure they ARE much improved. However, if a consumer was 'driven away' from GM due to problems (even 10-20 years ago) and IS SATISFIED with their current Toyota/Honda (or even -gasp- a Ford), then WHY should they be considering GM again?

    I'll ask again - given your previous bad experiences with Ford and your current satisfaction with GM, what would it take to get you back into a Ford?
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,272
    The general has made some improvements, but the biggest problem is that the measuring stick isn't to compare the general of today to what they did 10 and 20 years ago, but rather to the competition of today. The product, especially mass market cars, still fall short. That's whay the big discounts are needed to move them.
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